I have to admit that Nahiri is pretty much outclassed by Elspeth, Knight-Errant in Legacy. Stoneforge Mystic cheats out equipment from hand faster and actually searches for equipment, so SFM outclasses part of Nahiri's -small. Then, Elspeth 1.0 pulls off the most important part of Nahiri's +X for one mana less than Nahiri. Elspeth 1.0 also effectively hands out temporary equipment with her other +1. Pretty much the only edges Nahiri has in Legacy are the ability to reanimate equipment, attach equipment for free, and create equipment with her ult--which don't happen often when arguably the most commonly played equipment in Legacy is Batterskull, which bounces itself and comes attached to a 0/0 creature.
The rest of the C14 walkers don't look outright outclassed (although Teferi Walker, like other blue walkers, doesn't compare favourably to Jace TMS) in Legacy. Heck, Ob Nixilis has been pretty decent to me in a Legacy UB Delve Control brew.
I have to admit that Nahiri is pretty much outclassed by Elspeth, Knight-Errant in Legacy...
Right, Nahiri is assuredly not a Legacy card.
My main complaint with her is she might not even be much of a Commander.
It seems to me that any mono-white equipment-themed Commander deck would probably want Khemba, Kha Regent as their Commander anyway.
In that sense, Nahiri doesn't really create a new archetype--compare her to Daretti, who encourages you to build a red-sacrifice-artifact deck that didn't exist/have a Commander before.
The other three are good generic planeswalkers for their colors, allowing you to have a planeswalker Commander in any old value green or black or blue deck, but Nahiri pigeon-holes you into the Equipment archetype, and she might not even be the best Commander FOR that archetype. (If anyone here is a Khemba player, I'd appreciate your input on this.)
Regardless, I still don't mind her design. Cool art, cool theme. I like that her ultimate creates an "ultimate weapon" of sorts, and I like when secondary product cards like her clearly belong to a plane we've visited before.
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On MTGO as Protoman.
On 7/14/10, broke 1900 mark! <3 ROE.
You're "very impressed" with Ob Nixilis while "underwhelmed" with Freyalise?
Yes, because Freyalise was an important character in one of this game's longest and most epic storylines, while Ob Nixilis is a relatively new character; therefore, Freyalise had a much greater reputation and hype to live up to, while Nixilis did not.
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
You're "very impressed" with Ob Nixilis while "underwhelmed" with Freyalise?
Yes, because Freyalise was an important character in one of this game's longest and most epic storylines, while Ob Nixilis is a relatively new character; therefore, Freyalise had a much greater reputation and hype to live up to, while Nixilis did not.
But it's unrealistic to think that Wizards can make the power level of cards stand up to Oldwalker standards.
Freyalise's power level is pretty on-par withthe non-Nahiri walkers; how much more powerful would she have had to have been to stand up to your standards?
But it's unrealistic to think that Wizards can make the power level of cards stand up to Oldwalker standards.
Freyalise's power level is pretty on-par withthe non-Nahiri walkers; how much more powerful would she have had to have been to stand up to your standards?
As much as I dislike admitting this, I have not yet read the books of the Weatherlight saga; I know the story only from communicating with other players of this game and reading the articles on this forum's wiki, so I had no real expectations for Freyalise other than that I was hoping that she would have some major game-changing ability. In my mind, if Jace, Bolas, Karn, and Gideon can all have major game-altering abilities, she should be able to, as well.
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Since Freyalise has come up at this point, I'd just like to share that I played a few games of Nahiri vs Freyalise (both decks lightly modded with 10-15 cards swapped) at work today and to me piloting Nahiri against that Elf Pirate was like having a can of silly putty against an F22 Raptor. It was completely one sided and the Green deck basically overwhelmed me with board presence and killed me at will.
I've never felt so completely outmatched playing commander since I started playing the format in 2011.
And before you get into the 1vs1 argument, the next game was Freyalise vs Nahiri vs Thrax. Freyalise killed us both at the same time while drawing 12+ cards and ramping almost 20 mana using dorks and priests/archmage. Again, ping pong ball gun and an elmers glue stick vs Navy Destroyer is what came to mind.
Freyalise: Protects itself while ramping, Removes troublesome artifacts and enchantments or can pop mana rocks to resource screw the opponent, Refills your hand to draw an overrun/ezuri and close the game out on the spot or maintain immense pressure on the opponent
Nahiri: Protects itself with vanilla 1/1's that conditionally can be good, Cheats a sword of x and y into play you could have just hardcast for 3 instead, and takes forever and a day to produce a token sword that grants no evasion, and is brittle as rice paper in commander.
It's like comparing Geno Smith to Andrew Luck. One you have zero faith in doing anything constructive but going through the motions until you lose.
The other is full of talent, is the backbone of a high powered offense (#1 pass offense in the league actually), and will get you there with a little support from the team. (and yes I'm being neutral, I'm a lions fan)
EDIT: Actually I'd say more RG3. OVERRATED. CAN'T WIN GAMES CONSISTENTLY. Hey just got a new name for my EDH!
Stoneforge Mystic is so powerful it's been banned in both Modern and Standard. Expecting Nahiri to be comparable to SFM seems kind of unreasonable.
Nahiri ramps harder than Freyalise if you're using her as designed. Freyalise adds a cumulative one mana per turn. Nahiri can add 3+ mana on the turn she drops, and every turn thereafter. Her 1/1s are less important than paying the Equip cost of an equipment.
Similarly, her second ability is not effective if you're just using it to put out a 3-mana Sword from your hand. It's really effective if you're using it to recur your equipment from the graveyard.
In general, what she does isn't make already-awesome equipment like the Swords better. She makes moderately OK equipment into good equipment.
Stoneforge Mystic is so powerful it's been banned in both Modern and Standard. Expecting Nahiri to be comparable to SFM seems kind of unreasonable.
Nahiri ramps harder than Freyalise if you're using her as designed. Freyalise adds a cumulative one mana per turn. Nahiri can add 3+ mana on the turn she drops, and every turn thereafter. Her 1/1s are less important than paying the Equip cost of an equipment.
Similarly, her second ability is not effective if you're just using it to put out a 3-mana Sword from your hand. It's really effective if you're using it to recur your equipment from the graveyard.
In general, what she does isn't make already-awesome equipment like the Swords better. She makes moderately OK equipment into good equipment.
The difference is Freyalise ramps while building to her ultimate, which will give you a ton of cards to use all that ramp on while you proceed to win the game.
Nahiri "ramps" (if you could honestly call it that) while see-sawing back and forth between 1 and 3 loyalty, and also is conditional that you have equipment in your hand to cheat into play. It's not even close in terms of effectiveness.
If you are referring to "ramp" as "not pay equip costs" see below for why that is also a waste.
So why would I want to equip to a 1/1 for free instead of putting that Strata Scythe or Bonehoard on something with evasion that will punch major damage through like a spirit token or Indomitable Archangel? They just chump the Kor Soldier. Yes the equipment recursion can be good, but it's conditional on you having stuff in the yard.
She makes a good Kemba, Kha Regent deck into a moderately OK Nahiri, the Lithomancer deck.
Najiri can work under the Commander Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer. Besides helping maintain MetalCraft with Equipments, she can churn out 4/1 token with Jor's ability.
One of the other things about Nahiri is that her ultimate is better off when she's not the commander. Give that commander enough boost with the equip to go for the 21 damage player elimination.
It's generally got to be an instant or ability that can get rid of Stoneforged Blade on the turn Najiri's ultimate was used. There are some cards that can provide shroud or hexproof protections. Some cards can make copies of Stoneforged Blade.
Mainly, Stoneforged Blade is just meant to be a player finisher. Equip to a creature with some kind of evasion and swing for +10 damage. Another play method is to just save up for it as a backup option if the opponent gets rid of any of your other good equips.
If you are referring to "ramp" as "not pay equip costs" see below for why that is also a waste.
So why would I want to equip to a 1/1 for free instead of putting that Strata Scythe or Bonehoard on something with evasion that will punch major damage through like a spirit token or Indomitable Archangel?
Because you can do something else with that mana? Yeah, sticking Haunted Plate Mail on an Indomitable Archangel to get an 8/8 flying is nice - but what's even better is sticking it on a free token and casting a second Indomitable Archangel with the mana you saved, and ending up with two 4/4 flying and a 5/5.
Sure, if you have nothing else to spend the mana on, then the free equips are a waste, but that's true whenever you have extra mana - there's no point in ramping unless you have stuff to spend that mana on.
The tokens are good for certain equips. Much better in a W/R build with access to global Haste. Deathrender as an expendable to play a creature card from the hand.
R/W build using Sunforger.
Any equips that offer Deathtouch. Nemesis Mask works a Lure.
In terms of specific equipment, Heartseeker is pretty awesome. When paired with global haste, it turns her +2 into "put a tapped 1/1 into play. Destroy target creature." The tokens are also pretty good at holding a Dead-Iron Sledge (better than deathtouch in most cases), or any of the "painful" equipment like Demonmail Hauberk, Grafted Wargear or Grafted Exoskeleton - and makes Sigil of Distinction much more attractive.
If you are referring to "ramp" as "not pay equip costs" see below for why that is also a waste.
So why would I want to equip to a 1/1 for free instead of putting that Strata Scythe or Bonehoard on something with evasion that will punch major damage through like a spirit token or Indomitable Archangel?
Because you can do something else with that mana? Yeah, sticking Haunted Plate Mail on an Indomitable Archangel to get an 8/8 flying is nice - but what's even better is sticking it on a free token and casting a second Indomitable Archangel with the mana you saved, and ending up with two 4/4 flying and a 5/5.
Sure, if you have nothing else to spend the mana on, then the free equips are a waste, but that's true whenever you have extra mana - there's no point in ramping unless you have stuff to spend that mana on.
I don't know if I can take you seriously when you say cast a second Indomitable Archangel to have two 4/4 flying. This is commander and you can only have 1 copy of any given card.
And of course you have other things to spend the mana on. Like spells in your hand or pumping out tokens with the MANY enchantments included in the deck that mass tokens.
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Thank you for the two-part list of Equipment and what they do.
I'd still be curious to hear if there are any Khemba players here and, if so, if they could identify any reason to run Nahiri over Khemba if your goal is a mono-white Equipment-themed deck. In other words, is Nahiri redundant as a Commander?
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On MTGO as Protoman.
On 7/14/10, broke 1900 mark! <3 ROE.
There are only two points to this. If Nahiri is a Commander, easier access to her and those Equipment support abilities. If she's not a Commander, her Stoneforged Blade ultimate helps the Commander go for 21 damage player elimination.
I find her abilities to be quite strong. Skullclamp is probably her strongest asset equipment due to her + ability being essentially a draw two cards function once you get it and she keeps it in play quite well.
The real issue is that mono white has a really hard time in general. I think she is solid at her current power level but they really need a boros or 3 color RWX commander who enables equipment or goes equipment focus better.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I've been playing Nahiri all week and so far I've hit ultimate at least 4 times. 0/4 I've actually hit something with it, because the token gets exiled, blinked, or more commonly bounced. It's the most flimsy, worthless ultimate I've ever seen. And it takes like a hundred years just to get to it.
I find the benefit of using Nahiri is resilience over power. She either gives you a body or pulls in/back an equipment to throw on a body you have making recovering from a creature or artifact wipe much easier. Plus Planeswalkers are much more difficult to tuck than creatures.
Sure, there is a chance of spending $4 on a booster and getting the Mythic Rare $30 super card. There is also a chance of surviving putting your tongue in a light socket.
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The rest of the C14 walkers don't look outright outclassed (although Teferi Walker, like other blue walkers, doesn't compare favourably to Jace TMS) in Legacy. Heck, Ob Nixilis has been pretty decent to me in a Legacy UB Delve Control brew.
Right, Nahiri is assuredly not a Legacy card.
My main complaint with her is she might not even be much of a Commander.
It seems to me that any mono-white equipment-themed Commander deck would probably want Khemba, Kha Regent as their Commander anyway.
In that sense, Nahiri doesn't really create a new archetype--compare her to Daretti, who encourages you to build a red-sacrifice-artifact deck that didn't exist/have a Commander before.
The other three are good generic planeswalkers for their colors, allowing you to have a planeswalker Commander in any old value green or black or blue deck, but Nahiri pigeon-holes you into the Equipment archetype, and she might not even be the best Commander FOR that archetype. (If anyone here is a Khemba player, I'd appreciate your input on this.)
Regardless, I still don't mind her design. Cool art, cool theme. I like that her ultimate creates an "ultimate weapon" of sorts, and I like when secondary product cards like her clearly belong to a plane we've visited before.
On 7/14/10, broke 1900 mark! <3 ROE.
Yes, because Freyalise was an important character in one of this game's longest and most epic storylines, while Ob Nixilis is a relatively new character; therefore, Freyalise had a much greater reputation and hype to live up to, while Nixilis did not.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
But it's unrealistic to think that Wizards can make the power level of cards stand up to Oldwalker standards.
Freyalise's power level is pretty on-par withthe non-Nahiri walkers; how much more powerful would she have had to have been to stand up to your standards?
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
As much as I dislike admitting this, I have not yet read the books of the Weatherlight saga; I know the story only from communicating with other players of this game and reading the articles on this forum's wiki, so I had no real expectations for Freyalise other than that I was hoping that she would have some major game-changing ability. In my mind, if Jace, Bolas, Karn, and Gideon can all have major game-altering abilities, she should be able to, as well.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I've never felt so completely outmatched playing commander since I started playing the format in 2011.
And before you get into the 1vs1 argument, the next game was Freyalise vs Nahiri vs Thrax. Freyalise killed us both at the same time while drawing 12+ cards and ramping almost 20 mana using dorks and priests/archmage. Again, ping pong ball gun and an elmers glue stick vs Navy Destroyer is what came to mind.
Freyalise: Protects itself while ramping, Removes troublesome artifacts and enchantments or can pop mana rocks to resource screw the opponent, Refills your hand to draw an overrun/ezuri and close the game out on the spot or maintain immense pressure on the opponent
Nahiri: Protects itself with vanilla 1/1's that conditionally can be good, Cheats a sword of x and y into play you could have just hardcast for 3 instead, and takes forever and a day to produce a token sword that grants no evasion, and is brittle as rice paper in commander.
It's like comparing Geno Smith to Andrew Luck. One you have zero faith in doing anything constructive but going through the motions until you lose.
The other is full of talent, is the backbone of a high powered offense (#1 pass offense in the league actually), and will get you there with a little support from the team. (and yes I'm being neutral, I'm a lions fan)
EDIT: Actually I'd say more RG3. OVERRATED. CAN'T WIN GAMES CONSISTENTLY. Hey just got a new name for my EDH!
BUDGET DECK BUILDER SINCE 93'
Modern ------------------------- WU Azorius Titan Midrange
Commander ------------------- WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
***Are you looking for cards priced below TCG NM "LOW" and with FREE SHIPPING? - Click HERE! for my sales thread - 485 Feedback 100% positive!***
Nahiri ramps harder than Freyalise if you're using her as designed. Freyalise adds a cumulative one mana per turn. Nahiri can add 3+ mana on the turn she drops, and every turn thereafter. Her 1/1s are less important than paying the Equip cost of an equipment.
Similarly, her second ability is not effective if you're just using it to put out a 3-mana Sword from your hand. It's really effective if you're using it to recur your equipment from the graveyard.
In general, what she does isn't make already-awesome equipment like the Swords better. She makes moderately OK equipment into good equipment.
The difference is Freyalise ramps while building to her ultimate, which will give you a ton of cards to use all that ramp on while you proceed to win the game.
Nahiri "ramps" (if you could honestly call it that) while see-sawing back and forth between 1 and 3 loyalty, and also is conditional that you have equipment in your hand to cheat into play. It's not even close in terms of effectiveness.
If you are referring to "ramp" as "not pay equip costs" see below for why that is also a waste.
So why would I want to equip to a 1/1 for free instead of putting that Strata Scythe or Bonehoard on something with evasion that will punch major damage through like a spirit token or Indomitable Archangel? They just chump the Kor Soldier. Yes the equipment recursion can be good, but it's conditional on you having stuff in the yard.
She makes a good Kemba, Kha Regent deck into a moderately OK Nahiri, the Lithomancer deck.
BUDGET DECK BUILDER SINCE 93'
Modern ------------------------- WU Azorius Titan Midrange
Commander ------------------- WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
***Are you looking for cards priced below TCG NM "LOW" and with FREE SHIPPING? - Click HERE! for my sales thread - 485 Feedback 100% positive!***
One of the other things about Nahiri is that her ultimate is better off when she's not the commander. Give that commander enough boost with the equip to go for the 21 damage player elimination.
Mainly, Stoneforged Blade is just meant to be a player finisher. Equip to a creature with some kind of evasion and swing for +10 damage. Another play method is to just save up for it as a backup option if the opponent gets rid of any of your other good equips.
Sure, if you have nothing else to spend the mana on, then the free equips are a waste, but that's true whenever you have extra mana - there's no point in ramping unless you have stuff to spend that mana on.
Deathrender as an expendable to play a creature card from the hand.
R/W build using Sunforger.
Any equips that offer Deathtouch.
Nemesis Mask works a Lure.
I don't know if I can take you seriously when you say cast a second Indomitable Archangel to have two 4/4 flying. This is commander and you can only have 1 copy of any given card.
And of course you have other things to spend the mana on. Like spells in your hand or pumping out tokens with the MANY enchantments included in the deck that mass tokens.
BUDGET DECK BUILDER SINCE 93'
Modern ------------------------- WU Azorius Titan Midrange
Commander ------------------- WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
***Are you looking for cards priced below TCG NM "LOW" and with FREE SHIPPING? - Click HERE! for my sales thread - 485 Feedback 100% positive!***
Pennon Blade for the creature numbers.
Ronin Warclub, Sai of the Shinobi, Veteran's Armaments, and Sword of the Meek can equip on the token along with another Equip.
Viridian Longbow and Deathtouch equipment to kill off a creature.
Godsend, exiling creatures is still effective.
Thank you for the two-part list of Equipment and what they do.
I'd still be curious to hear if there are any Khemba players here and, if so, if they could identify any reason to run Nahiri over Khemba if your goal is a mono-white Equipment-themed deck. In other words, is Nahiri redundant as a Commander?
On 7/14/10, broke 1900 mark! <3 ROE.
The real issue is that mono white has a really hard time in general. I think she is solid at her current power level but they really need a boros or 3 color RWX commander who enables equipment or goes equipment focus better.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Bludgeon Brawl is fun to try with her token ability.
I wouldn't go for the ultimate unless there is some protection out like Grand Abolisher, Fountain Watch, Hanna's Custody, Indomitable Archangel, Leonin Abunas, or Relic Ward.
Tokens can be sacrificed for a number of cards. Ashnod's Altar, Carnage Altar, Doom Cannon, Eldrazi Monument, Fodder Cannon, Helm of Possession, Phyrexian Vault, Trading Post, Fanatical Devotion, Martyr's Cause, and Wayward Angel upkeep.
Modern
BUGLantern ControlBUG