It becomes very difficult to talk civilly with you about color pie when you clearly don't know what it even is. Blue is secondary (well, a very distant secondary) in discard and hand manipulation.
I now see the complete and utter confusion stems from people not doing the research on what colors can do what as well as the justifications for why they should or should not do things. Perhaps some of you need to do a little more homework before so violently defending your flawed opinions.
Please provide links to the articles that support your opinions. Also, opinions can't be flawed. They're opinions, and therefor subjective, so opinions can't be flawed. Your logic, however, is obviously flawed beyond salvage. Seriously though, back up your claims with links to actual statements by Wizards, or just be quiet. Also, quote at least three people in this thread who agree with you. Oh, and can you give us a list of five cards in blue (that have not already been mentioned in this thread) that qualify as hand disruption from the current color pie. Good luck with that homie.
It becomes very difficult to talk civilly with you about color pie when you clearly don't know what it even is. Blue is secondary (well, a very distant secondary) in discard and hand manipulation.
I now see the complete and utter confusion stems from people not doing the research on what colors can do what as well as the justifications for why they should or should not do things. Perhaps some of you need to do a little more homework before so violently defending your flawed opinions.
Please provide links to the articles that support your opinions. Also, opinions can't be flawed. They're opinions, and therefor subjective, so opinions can't be flawed. Your logic, however, is obviously flawed beyond salvage. Seriously though, back up your claims with links to actual statements by Wizards, or just be quiet. Also, quote at least three people in this thread who agree with you. Good luck with that homie.
Be less rude if you would like to have a civil discussion.
It becomes very difficult to talk civilly with you about color pie when you clearly don't know what it even is. Blue is secondary (well, a very distant secondary) in discard and hand manipulation.
I now see the complete and utter confusion stems from people not doing the research on what colors can do what as well as the justifications for why they should or should not do things. Perhaps some of you need to do a little more homework before so violently defending your flawed opinions.
Please provide links to the articles that support your opinions. Also, opinions can't be flawed. They're opinions, and therefor subjective, so opinions can't be flawed. Your logic, however, is obviously flawed beyond salvage. Seriously though, back up your claims with links to actual statements by Wizards, or just be quiet. Also, quote at least three people in this thread who agree with you. Good luck with that homie.
Be less rude if you would like to have a civil discussion.
Work on your reading skills homie. I didn't ask for a link to one of MaRo's blogs. I asked for five blue cards not already mentioned in this thread that utilize hand disruption mechanics and three people that agree with you on this subject. Try again hot shot. Also, if you fail to see how claiming someone's stance on this subject is wrong without siting sources as to why they are wrong is in itself wrong, I don't know what to say without sounding rude. You claim anyone who disagrees with you (which is like 80% of this thread) doesn't know a thing about the color pie or is new to the game or should go play some other CCG. And you think that's not rude? You should maybe spend less time preaching about how much more well versed you are at color pie philosophy than everyone else and more time removing your cranium from your rectum.
EDIT - Here, I'll even give you a nudge in the right direction...
DOUBLE EDIT - Don't know why that link isn't working, but just do a Gatherer search for blue cards with "discard" in the text, then discard the looter effects. Then tell me what your left with. I counted three at about two-thirds way down the list. You can figure out the rest...
This doesn't break greens "color pie" at all, and is quite flavorful.
People just like to gripe and complain about arbitrary things.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Wolfman about lack of Conspiracy spoilers-
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
It's cracking me up how people are using cards that MaRo keeps saying shouldn't have been printed because they set bad precedents to argue that Jivanmukta doesn't know what they're talking about.
It's like, who are you supposed to quote about color pie violations aside from the current head designer of magic, aka the person who sets what is or isn't acceptable for each color?
It becomes very difficult to talk civilly with you about color pie when you clearly don't know what it even is. Blue is secondary (well, a very distant secondary) in discard and hand manipulation.
I now see the complete and utter confusion stems from people not doing the research on what colors can do what as well as the justifications for why they should or should not do things. Perhaps some of you need to do a little more homework before so violently defending your flawed opinions.
Edit: There is a lot of bitterness in this thread. People get worked up over what they believe color pie is. A little understanding that you may be biased goes a long way.
Blue discard was a PLC effect, just like offensive blue polymorphs and offensive green-based enchantment removal are. According to 2007 MaRo, all of them are justifiable but significantly break the color pie.
Quote from Mark Rosewater »
Why Blue: Blue also messes with the opponent’s mind. Unlike black though, blue does it by warping perceptions. Blue doesn’t destroy the opponent’s brain as much as it confuses it. Shifting discard into blue is playing into this mental manipulation flavor of blue. Black might lobotomize you. Blue simply makes you forget things. Blue doesn’t remove the memory as much as it keeps you from being able to access it. Note that discard and card drawing overlap in how they achieve card advantage. Blue having discard plays directly into its desire to seek advantage subtly over time.
Or should I not use MaRo when discussing the thing that it's his job to define? Seriously, telling someone not to use MaRo when discussing color pie is completely insane.
@Slivortal: Blue discard is in flavor. Green polymorphing is not. Frankly I do not care if you or anyone else doesn't like it or want it, but that's how it is.
The funny thing about facts is that they are unbiased.
Or should I not use MaRo when discussing the thing that it's his job to define? Seriously, telling someone not to use MaRo when discussing color pie is completely insane.
@Slivortal: Blue discard is in flavor. Green polymorphing is not. Frankly I do not care if you or anyone else doesn't like it or want it, but that's how it is.
Who defined this and when? The same article that describes blue discard and offensive blue Polymorph as in-flavor also describes green Pacifism as being in flavor. Aren't we reaching a point of potential relativism in regards to color pie stretching? Discard and offensive Polymorphing were certainly considered far outside the norm of blue's color pie back before PLC; I don't understand why we now accept one as kosher but not the other. Again, are we putting flavor before mechanics or mechanics before flavor? Mechanically, blue discard and removal are about as wacky as green creature removal.
Hmmm... Polymorphism at least seems like it wouldn't be out of flavor for Green. Green is the color most linked to fauna so it would appear that a Green mage could feasibly transform himself or others into other animals. At least it would seem to be in flavor with both Blue and Green.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
Now of course he says they don't do it often at all, but it IS secondary.
But honestly, it doesn't matter how much proof I give, it won't be enough to people who don't want to hear it.
Right; and who says that green isn't a distant, distant second in Polymorphism/Pacifism back-to-nature style effects (ala MaRo's PLC article)? It's been done about as often as white countermagic or blue discard, so I don't see what the overwhelming issue is. At the end of the day these are all arbitrary flavor concepts, and I think it's a weird line to be saying that Lapse of Certainty and Vendilion Clique are fine to see once in a while, but Song of the Dryads isn't.
They're all effects that shouldn't be done often, but I don't think that their very existence is outside of the color pie altogether.
Now of course he says they don't do it often at all, but it IS secondary.
But honestly, it doesn't matter how much proof I give, it won't be enough to people who don't want to hear it.
Right; and who says that green isn't a distant, distant second in Polymorphism/Pacifism back-to-nature style effects (ala MaRo's PLC article)? It's been done about as often as white countermagic or blue discard, so I don't see what the overwhelming issue is. At the end of the day these are all arbitrary flavor concepts, and I think it's a weird line to be saying that Lapse of Certainty and Vendilion Clique are fine to see once in a while, but Song of the Dryads isn't.
They're all effects that shouldn't be done often, but I don't think that their very existence is outside of the color pie altogether.
They are completely different. Blue discard is accepted by the Color Pie Guru, Green polymorphing is not. I am having a hard time seeing what is so difficult about that beyond you simply not wanting it to be true.
I give evidence and you ignore it. You give none beyond "I think this" and expect it to be taken just as seriously. That is madness.
Now of course he says they don't do it often at all, but it IS secondary.
But honestly, it doesn't matter how much proof I give, it won't be enough to people who don't want to hear it.
Right; and who says that green isn't a distant, distant second in Polymorphism/Pacifism back-to-nature style effects (ala MaRo's PLC article)? It's been done about as often as white countermagic or blue discard, so I don't see what the overwhelming issue is. At the end of the day these are all arbitrary flavor concepts, and I think it's a weird line to be saying that Lapse of Certainty and Vendilion Clique are fine to see once in a while, but Song of the Dryads isn't.
They're all effects that shouldn't be done often, but I don't think that their very existence is outside of the color pie altogether.
They are completely different. Blue discard is accepted by the Color Pie Guru, Green polymorphing is not. I am having a hard time seeing what is so difficult about that beyond you simply not wanting it to be true.
I give evidence and you ignore it. You give none beyond "I think this" and expect it to be taken just as seriously. That is madness.
But the Color Pie Guru said in 2007 that either blue discard and green Pacifism were both ridiculous, or that they were both valid concepts. Given his lack of tractability as a monolithic and unchanging pedestal of color identity, I feel that relying on Mark Rosewater as the sole entity by which to define the color pie is a little out there.
Also, given that the green deck was personally designed by Aaron Forsythe (the director of Magic R&D), that must mean that his personal interpretation of the color pie allows for this card. And at the end of the day, Forsythe has a lot more power over what kind of cards actually see internal R&D work than Mark Rosewater does, who oversees the day-to-day handling of Magic as a whole.
Also, Mark Rosewater despises EDH and takes every chance to bash something about it. As such, I really question his motives in calling out this one card one time, whereas he found excuses for hyper-aggressive blue creatures like True-Name Nemesis (blue PROTECTS ITS CREATURES) (and before you argue that TNN was designed for EDH, everyone knows that card was designed with only Legacy in mind). Combined with his absurd stance on hybrid cards (it's OKAY to break the color pie as long as the other color can too), I feel that we can't treat him as the Oracle of Delphi that you make him out to be.
If Mark Rosewater were to disappear tomorrow, would he take the color pie with him? As you seem to concede that the color pie only exists inasmuch as it exists within the mind of Mark Rosewater.
lol that was the most timely blogatog post i have ever seen. wish for ammo for your argument and MaRo will provide.
i don't really have anything else to say about this topic since some people here will never be convinced otherwise, but song of the dryads will never be in standard or modern and i don't think it will be played heavily in vintage or legacy, so given its limited usage in competitive magic, its fine. i'll be up in arms with you when they print something like this in a normal expansion.
I'm glad Maro has little to no say in these products. It means we actually got some exciting Red cards for once.
I second this motion.
I don't get why everyone is freaking out about this. Can't you just Naturalize this? It's not unanswerable and green needed more reach. It maybe better than Beast Within but green players will run both. Man, its not that big of a deal.
Hey, so what do you guys think about Song of the Dryads? I think it's going to be one of the premier removal cards for Commander going forward.
I think the instant speed and non-recoverability on Beast Within is far better than the utility of getting around indestructibility/general recasting, though most green decks should be finding room for both.
I do want to see this cheated in with Genesis Wave/Sun Titan and get stuck on the opponent's Uril/Sigarda, though.
Haha this actually gives me a good idea for an EDH deck. Five-color, and all of the cards break the current perception of the color pie as dictated by Maro. I wonder if I could make a good deck with those things. Btw, does anyone know if Maro thinks Damnation is within color pie bounds?
1.)Have any colors gained traits over the past 21 years?
2.)Have any colors lost traits over the past 21 years?
3.)Have color pie defining philosophies from varying sources of authority disagreed with one another?
4.)Has increasingly creative flavor rationalized bleeding?
1.)Have any colors gained traits over the past 21 years?
2.)Have any colors lost traits over the past 21 years?
3.)Have color pie defining philosophies from varying sources of authority disagreed with one another?
4.)Has increasingly creative flavor rationalized bleeding?
I say yes to all four questions.
I just want to thank Slivortal for pointing out something I was too furious at (what I perceived as) Jivanmukta's short-sighted arrogance to ellaobate on... while MaRo is one of the main color pie philosophers, he is far from the end all and be all on the subject. There are many people on both the design and development teams and they all have a say in the interpretation of the color pie. Don't get me wrong... I respect MaRo. He has a great handle on the overall philosophy of the color pie. He writes engaging and illustrative articles on the subject... hell, on many subjects, but he is far from infallible. He does not have the final say on all matters regarding the subject and over the years he has altered his approach to the subject (and many times rightfully so), but accepting MaRo's stance on the subject at any given point in Magic's history as The Word of God is just plain <retarded>. And this is one of those times where MaRo thought this was deviating from the color pie guidelines, but the designers and developers of this particular product thought otherwise.
And to whoever posted a link to that comic strip that was meant to illustrate that "opinions can be wrong", that is one of the most hollow and asinine arguements I've ever seen. Everything in that strip was fact. Larger production scale does mean cheaper production costs and physically assaulting someone does inflict pain. Neither of those are opinions. We are talking about the philosophy of the structure of a fictional multiverse. That's more akin to whether you think your girlfriend looks better with her hair done up or let down, or if she looks better with or without makeup... and that IS a subjective opinion, neither of which are inherently right or wrong. Throwing the word "opinion" on something that is fact, or claiming something is fact because it happens to be your opinion is just wrong. And it's not my opinion that the color pie has some flex to it, it's fact, because, as stated previously, the color pie is not overseen by a single solitary entity, but IN FACT, a large rotating group of designers and developers, who's own opinions can change on the matter over the years. One only need remember Planar Chaos or New Phyrexia to see this is a truth.
So in this instance, the people who oversaw the design and development of this card felt it was within the acceptable guidelines of green's color pie and based on most of what I've seen in this thread, a significant portion/percentage of Magic players agree wih those designers and developers, even if MaRo doesn't. He man can't be right 100% of the time... no one can. In closing, the color pie is simply a philosophy to help structure the game, but is not a ridgid, unalterable blueprint for the game, but is an idea... a guideline to lead that philosophy and anyone who says otherwise is in some state of selfrighteous denial.
Please don't use the word 'Retarded' this way.
-Feyd
It becomes very difficult to talk civilly with you about color pie when you clearly don't know what it even is. Blue is secondary (well, a very distant secondary) in discard and hand manipulation.
I now see the complete and utter confusion stems from people not doing the research on what colors can do what as well as the justifications for why they should or should not do things. Perhaps some of you need to do a little more homework before so violently defending your flawed opinions.
Edit: There is a lot of bitterness in this thread. People get worked up over what they believe color pie is. A little understanding that you may be biased goes a long way.
You aren't talking civilly, you're being very rude in nearly all your posts here. It's very discouraging to talk to you because of it.
I understand there have been articles that tried to say what the color pie is. The problem is that if you don't print cards to support a theme, it basically doesn't exist. Before Brightstone Ritual, ritual effects didn't exist in Red's color pie. There was a decision to make them part of Red's color pie, but it didn't happen until cards were actually printed with ritual effects. Most people's idea of the color pie comes from the cards in the game, not an article MaRo wrote years ago. That's why "precedents" matter.
Whatever that article says about Blue as secondary in hand disruption, that theme was not expressed in the cards enough for people to realize it is. Most people would not cite Blue as a secondary color for hand disruption. However, most people are fine with Vendilion Clique because it takes an ability not often seen in Blue (hand disruption) and makes it feel Blue.
The color pie cannot be defined as just "What MaRo said it was" if we want to discuss its actual impact on magic cards, because MaRo isn't the only person designing cards.
1.)Have any colors gained traits over the past 21 years?
2.)Have any colors lost traits over the past 21 years?
3.)Have color pie defining philosophies from varying sources of authority disagreed with one another?
4.)Has increasingly creative flavor rationalized bleeding?
Yes to all four, though flavor has always rationalized bleeding; hell, the very basis of the colors is flavor. In a different world, Green would be the color of direct damage thanks to Lightning Bolt instead being a Green card named Giant Hornet Sting.
jivan is MaRo, thats why arguing with him isn't going anywhere. its the perfect cover. the perfect way to project his views on EDH under the guise of being 'the spirit of EDH'. it explains how he conveniently got a blogatog response to this exact topic that was posted today of all times.
but seriously, i really liked planar chaos for all the color pie bleeding that we have discussed. its cool to do once in awhile, just so long as its done sparingly.
In closing, the color pie is simply a philosophy to help structure the game, but is not a ridgid, unalterable blueprint for the game, but is an idea... a guideline to lead that philosophy and anyone who says otherwise is in some state of selfrighteous denial.
This pretty much perfectly sums up my interpretation of the color pie too. Bravo!
Be less rude if you would like to have a civil discussion.
Blue secondary/tertiary in discard: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/24047897920/why-does-blue-get-secondary-discard-instead-of-red
EDIT - Here, I'll even give you a nudge in the right direction...
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?page=1&action=advanced&color= @(+%5BU%5D)&text=+%5BTarget%5D+%5Bdiscard%5D
DOUBLE EDIT - Don't know why that link isn't working, but just do a Gatherer search for blue cards with "discard" in the text, then discard the looter effects. Then tell me what your left with. I counted three at about two-thirds way down the list. You can figure out the rest...
People just like to gripe and complain about arbitrary things.
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
It's like, who are you supposed to quote about color pie violations aside from the current head designer of magic, aka the person who sets what is or isn't acceptable for each color?
Seriously MaRo does not like these green polymorphs.
also opinions can totally be wrong
Art is life itself.
Blue discard was a PLC effect, just like offensive blue polymorphs and offensive green-based enchantment removal are. According to 2007 MaRo, all of them are justifiable but significantly break the color pie.
Again, for your consideration,
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr265
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Or should I not use MaRo when discussing the thing that it's his job to define? Seriously, telling someone not to use MaRo when discussing color pie is completely insane.
@Slivortal: Blue discard is in flavor. Green polymorphing is not. Frankly I do not care if you or anyone else doesn't like it or want it, but that's how it is.
The funny thing about facts is that they are unbiased.
Who defined this and when? The same article that describes blue discard and offensive blue Polymorph as in-flavor also describes green Pacifism as being in flavor. Aren't we reaching a point of potential relativism in regards to color pie stretching? Discard and offensive Polymorphing were certainly considered far outside the norm of blue's color pie back before PLC; I don't understand why we now accept one as kosher but not the other. Again, are we putting flavor before mechanics or mechanics before flavor? Mechanically, blue discard and removal are about as wacky as green creature removal.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
-Chandra Nalaar
"So that brings up—well, wouldn’t blue be a good discard color? Well, I mean technically blue is secondary in discard, although—I mean, a far second."
Edit: Found more. http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/78777878956/white-is-supposedly-the-secondary-color-at-countermagic
Now of course he says they don't do it often at all, but it IS secondary.
But honestly, it doesn't matter how much proof I give, it won't be enough to people who don't want to hear it.
Right; and who says that green isn't a distant, distant second in Polymorphism/Pacifism back-to-nature style effects (ala MaRo's PLC article)? It's been done about as often as white countermagic or blue discard, so I don't see what the overwhelming issue is. At the end of the day these are all arbitrary flavor concepts, and I think it's a weird line to be saying that Lapse of Certainty and Vendilion Clique are fine to see once in a while, but Song of the Dryads isn't.
They're all effects that shouldn't be done often, but I don't think that their very existence is outside of the color pie altogether.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
They are completely different. Blue discard is accepted by the Color Pie Guru, Green polymorphing is not. I am having a hard time seeing what is so difficult about that beyond you simply not wanting it to be true.
I give evidence and you ignore it. You give none beyond "I think this" and expect it to be taken just as seriously. That is madness.
But the Color Pie Guru said in 2007 that either blue discard and green Pacifism were both ridiculous, or that they were both valid concepts. Given his lack of tractability as a monolithic and unchanging pedestal of color identity, I feel that relying on Mark Rosewater as the sole entity by which to define the color pie is a little out there.
Also, given that the green deck was personally designed by Aaron Forsythe (the director of Magic R&D), that must mean that his personal interpretation of the color pie allows for this card. And at the end of the day, Forsythe has a lot more power over what kind of cards actually see internal R&D work than Mark Rosewater does, who oversees the day-to-day handling of Magic as a whole.
Also, Mark Rosewater despises EDH and takes every chance to bash something about it. As such, I really question his motives in calling out this one card one time, whereas he found excuses for hyper-aggressive blue creatures like True-Name Nemesis (blue PROTECTS ITS CREATURES) (and before you argue that TNN was designed for EDH, everyone knows that card was designed with only Legacy in mind). Combined with his absurd stance on hybrid cards (it's OKAY to break the color pie as long as the other color can too), I feel that we can't treat him as the Oracle of Delphi that you make him out to be.
If Mark Rosewater were to disappear tomorrow, would he take the color pie with him? As you seem to concede that the color pie only exists inasmuch as it exists within the mind of Mark Rosewater.
EDIT: Mark Rosewater says green Polymorphing creatures is "Okay, as long as it ends up making the creature bigger."
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/101698095953/since-you-dont-like-lignify-does-that-also-mean-you
Mark Rosewater says blue gets super-efficient creatures when "They do things blue is good at."
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/101718450713/you-defended-blues-super-efficient-creatures-because
This man is nowhere near the master of color pie interpretation that you make him out to be.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
i don't really have anything else to say about this topic since some people here will never be convinced otherwise, but song of the dryads will never be in standard or modern and i don't think it will be played heavily in vintage or legacy, so given its limited usage in competitive magic, its fine. i'll be up in arms with you when they print something like this in a normal expansion.
I second this motion.
I don't get why everyone is freaking out about this. Can't you just Naturalize this? It's not unanswerable and green needed more reach. It maybe better than Beast Within but green players will run both. Man, its not that big of a deal.
Epic Signature by the one and only Ace in Ace of Spades Studio
Proud member of the Spirit of EDH
BGW Teneb, the Harvester [Primer]
R Márton Stromgald
WUB Dakkon Blackblade
GR Atarka, World Render
{Writing and Rants}
WUBRG The Primeval Dragon's influence on EDH
I think the instant speed and non-recoverability on Beast Within is far better than the utility of getting around indestructibility/general recasting, though most green decks should be finding room for both.
I do want to see this cheated in with Genesis Wave/Sun Titan and get stuck on the opponent's Uril/Sigarda, though.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Please check yes or no
1.)Have any colors gained traits over the past 21 years?
2.)Have any colors lost traits over the past 21 years?
3.)Have color pie defining philosophies from varying sources of authority disagreed with one another?
4.)Has increasingly creative flavor rationalized bleeding?
I just want to thank Slivortal for pointing out something I was too furious at (what I perceived as) Jivanmukta's short-sighted arrogance to ellaobate on... while MaRo is one of the main color pie philosophers, he is far from the end all and be all on the subject. There are many people on both the design and development teams and they all have a say in the interpretation of the color pie. Don't get me wrong... I respect MaRo. He has a great handle on the overall philosophy of the color pie. He writes engaging and illustrative articles on the subject... hell, on many subjects, but he is far from infallible. He does not have the final say on all matters regarding the subject and over the years he has altered his approach to the subject (and many times rightfully so), but accepting MaRo's stance on the subject at any given point in Magic's history as The Word of God is just plain <retarded>. And this is one of those times where MaRo thought this was deviating from the color pie guidelines, but the designers and developers of this particular product thought otherwise.
And to whoever posted a link to that comic strip that was meant to illustrate that "opinions can be wrong", that is one of the most hollow and asinine arguements I've ever seen. Everything in that strip was fact. Larger production scale does mean cheaper production costs and physically assaulting someone does inflict pain. Neither of those are opinions. We are talking about the philosophy of the structure of a fictional multiverse. That's more akin to whether you think your girlfriend looks better with her hair done up or let down, or if she looks better with or without makeup... and that IS a subjective opinion, neither of which are inherently right or wrong. Throwing the word "opinion" on something that is fact, or claiming something is fact because it happens to be your opinion is just wrong. And it's not my opinion that the color pie has some flex to it, it's fact, because, as stated previously, the color pie is not overseen by a single solitary entity, but IN FACT, a large rotating group of designers and developers, who's own opinions can change on the matter over the years. One only need remember Planar Chaos or New Phyrexia to see this is a truth.
So in this instance, the people who oversaw the design and development of this card felt it was within the acceptable guidelines of green's color pie and based on most of what I've seen in this thread, a significant portion/percentage of Magic players agree wih those designers and developers, even if MaRo doesn't. He man can't be right 100% of the time... no one can. In closing, the color pie is simply a philosophy to help structure the game, but is not a ridgid, unalterable blueprint for the game, but is an idea... a guideline to lead that philosophy and anyone who says otherwise is in some state of selfrighteous denial.
Please don't use the word 'Retarded' this way.
-Feyd
You aren't talking civilly, you're being very rude in nearly all your posts here. It's very discouraging to talk to you because of it.
I understand there have been articles that tried to say what the color pie is. The problem is that if you don't print cards to support a theme, it basically doesn't exist. Before Brightstone Ritual, ritual effects didn't exist in Red's color pie. There was a decision to make them part of Red's color pie, but it didn't happen until cards were actually printed with ritual effects. Most people's idea of the color pie comes from the cards in the game, not an article MaRo wrote years ago. That's why "precedents" matter.
Whatever that article says about Blue as secondary in hand disruption, that theme was not expressed in the cards enough for people to realize it is. Most people would not cite Blue as a secondary color for hand disruption. However, most people are fine with Vendilion Clique because it takes an ability not often seen in Blue (hand disruption) and makes it feel Blue.
The color pie cannot be defined as just "What MaRo said it was" if we want to discuss its actual impact on magic cards, because MaRo isn't the only person designing cards.
Yes to all four, though flavor has always rationalized bleeding; hell, the very basis of the colors is flavor. In a different world, Green would be the color of direct damage thanks to Lightning Bolt instead being a Green card named Giant Hornet Sting.
but seriously, i really liked planar chaos for all the color pie bleeding that we have discussed. its cool to do once in awhile, just so long as its done sparingly.
This pretty much perfectly sums up my interpretation of the color pie too. Bravo!
That is some sweet tech. I'm going to have to start running Terra Eternal just in case...