Have you ever read the text on Bramblecrush? Hurricaine and such a part of Green's anti-flying schtick.
This is basically a green PtE.
Ah yes I was mistaken, for some reason I thought it said target permanent. Hurricane is still creature removal. It's a part of Green's anti-flying schtick just as Song of the Dryads is a part of Green's land schtick. It doesn't even remove anything from the board, it only turns the creature into a land. That's exceedingly Green.
The thing is that Green does get creature removal but only in a roundabout way or with stipulations like Hurricane. This isn't a Green PtE, this is a Green Encrust.
Song of the Dryads is functionally identical to an oblivion ring. The only real difference is that it gives the opponent a land a la path to exile. It shouldn't be in green, no matter how "flavourful" it may seem.
For those who are defending it, would you be okay with this card? (This is an honest question.)
Song of the Dryads is functionally identical to an oblivion ring. The only real difference is that it gives the opponent a land a la path to exile. It shouldn't be in green, no matter how "flavourful" it may seem.
For those who are defending it, would you be okay with this card? (This is an honest question.)
Wrath of the Forest 2GG
Sorcery
All creatures become colourless forest lands.
Of course people would be okay with that. But then again, most people don't understand (or care) how important a strict color pie is to magic.
Song of the Dryads is functionally identical to an oblivion ring. The only real difference is that it gives the opponent a land a la path to exile. It shouldn't be in green, no matter how "flavourful" it may seem.
For those who are defending it, would you be okay with this card? (This is an honest question.)
Wrath of the Forest 2GG
Sorcery
All creatures become colourless forest lands.
Of course people would be okay with that. But then again, most people don't understand (or care) how important a strict color pie is to magic.
Selfishness and ignorance are blinding forces.
I think that would be broken actually. It would double as ramp, and would need to be reworded to function correctly as a sorcery.
Yeah, I think instead of complaining about a good green answer in EDH, Maro should be trying to broaden Red's color pie. Burn/Haste/Artifact Removal's getting pretty stale by this point. The artifact recursion is a good step, but really it needs a lot of help to become anything but a support color in most cases. Honestly what would be interesting is if artifacts were cheaper in red. That would be sort of flavorful. Like artifacts that cost 1RR or RRR or something, that did something perhaps burn-like, Idk. I'm not the best at design, but I think in 20 years I would have been able to come up with something.
@Dontrike Really? I actually think that green's color pie is already decent enough.
Best creatures as far as size is concerned, artifact/enchantments destruction and exile, awesome creature tutoring, flying creatures hate, fight, a lot of creatures keywords (on the top of my head: trample, deathtouch, reach, vigilance) and overall good card draw, creature enlargment. I'm sure I'm forgetting something too.
Red is the color that really needs help, especially in commander. The red one being about artifacts is a step in the good direction, I think.
Edited not to have a double post
Yes, red needs help, but if any color should have this effect I am pretty sure that everyone is okay with green getting it as it doesn't belong in any other color.
Color pie is not about flavor. It's about mechanics. Transforming a creature into a plant may look like a green thing, but green is not supposed to have this kind of effect.
Transformation effects are in Blue because of flavor though. There's no mechanical similarity between Turn to Frog and Pongify beyond targeting a creature.
Also, flavor can justify many color pie violations if it "feels" right. The most obvious example is Form of the Dragon, which provides a non-Red effect (Creatures without Flying can't attack you) that still feels right because you're supposed to be a flying dragon.
Song of the Dryads is functionally identical to an oblivion ring. The only real difference is that it gives the opponent a land a la path to exile. It shouldn't be in green, no matter how "flavourful" it may seem.
For those who are defending it, would you be okay with this card? (This is an honest question.)
Wrath of the Forest 2GG
Sorcery
All creatures become colourless forest lands.
Of course people would be okay with that. But then again, most people don't understand (or care) how important a strict color pie is to magic.
That card is severely out-of-color pie because it only gets rid of creatures. Additionally, this isn't a fair question because the card represented is far stronger than Wrath of God, as it rewards players with lots of smaller-low value creatures (which is in green's strategy). A green deck will simultaneously treat this as a board wrath and a ramp spell, which is about as fair as it sounds.
I am not fine with your presented card, but I am fine with this one. Turning things into lands, or other Pacifism-like effects, is a minor color bleed green gets from white. It is extremely flavorful, and in fact the same card was proposed several times on the create-a-card forum. We see green getting effects like Desert Twister from Magic's very origins. While you may say that this is an archaic concept, like blue getting Psionic Blast, I would say this is not so. Destroying noncreature permanents in particular is considered an extremely green portion of the color pie by today's standards, and "turning creatures into nonliving things" is a natural extension of this flavor. It's why blue receives spells like Curse of the Swine every now and then (in this case extremely recently), because turning creatures into other creatures is considered part of its flavor, even if creature removal isn't directly within its color pie.
Flavor and color pie are inseparable concepts, as the latter is founded on the former. While cards like this (and Curse of the Swine) are not cards that Wizards should print on a daily basis, they're cards that really stretch the limits on what we define colors as, and exist as such. MaRo's supposed distaste in this specific instance is overall representative for his hatred of the format as a whole, and its failure to live up to his design philosophy (with related incidents such as the presence of hybrid/phyrexian mana cards and more).
I applaud Forsythe and friends for stretching the color pie with this effect as well as mono-white dealing damage (with Comeuppance), mono-blue generating tokens (with Reef Worm), mono-black generating tokens (with Gisa), mono-red getting reanimation (with Feldon), and mono-green getting cards that can potentially, but not always remove creatures.
These all create cards that are flavorful home-runs, and more importantly are really a blast to play with. The color pie is a fluid concept that should take on new boundaries as to shift the balance of colors from time to time, and create cards the players as a whole enjoy.
Man, it's a real shame that MaRo has little to no say in these products. Such blatant ignoring of the color pie should be punishable by firing.
All colors should have access to all abilities, just if varying degrees of effectiveness, efficiency and frequency. Green should be able to remove creatures and Wizards has been moving in this direction. The fight mechanic is obviously the best version of removal for green's color pie philosophy, but it is limiting (useless if you're creatureless, counterproductive if your creature is too small)... but that's fine... green shouldn't have the most efficient removal. But since green's removal is limited, it needs other limited options too. Green is one of the enchantress colors, so removal in the form of enchantments makes sense in green. It needs to be costed right and rationed out in the right amount, but it falls within the color pie if done right.
Also, it is worth noting that this card does not make an irreversible change. Remove the aura and the card is a creature again.
Song of the Dryads is functionally identical to an oblivion ring. The only real difference is that it gives the opponent a land a la path to exile.
Untrue. Various meaningful mechanical differences exist between Song of the Dryads and Oblivion Ring. Most obviously, Song of the Dryads can shut down many lands while Oblivion Ring can't do anything to lands. Next, Song of the Dryads never causes enters-the-battlefield abilities to trigger. Third, Oblivion Ring allows you to put its trigger on the stack and then remove it from the battlefield, thus exiling the targeted permanent forever. Fourth, Song of the Dryads allows you to destroy the forest the permanent turns into. Fifth, a commander's controller can chose to send a commander to the command zone if target by Oblivion Ring; that option doesn't exist for Song of the Dryads. Sixth, as an aura, Song of the Dryads doesn't target if it's put directly onto the battlefield such as by Replenish. Etc.
lots of QQing here. song is fine, it breaks the color pie much less than the way beast within does. anybody ever hear of enchantment removal in EDH? if you have you'd know that whatever permanent you control that got enchanted with song goes back to normal when song gets destroyed, so i don't really see what the big deal is. honestly i could care less about cards the bend the color pie rules a bit in EDH. they are much more interesting and preferable to a blatantly overpowered cards that enable really degenerate strategies in my humble opinion. this card is 1-1 removal "green vindicate" at best and you don't even lose what they target with it.
All colors should have access to all abilities, just if varying degrees of effectiveness, efficiency and frequency.
This is not how color pie works in magic. In fact it is exactly the opposite.
Okay, I may have been a bit liberal with that comment. What I meant is cards like Chaos Warp. Red doesn't get enchantment removal, but it gets random effects. So meet halfway. Same thing with fight. Green doesn't get creature removal, but it gets fatties. So meet halfway... BOOM... fight. Song of the Dryads is one of those meet halfway cards. And they should not appear too frequently, but in a supplemental product once every three years in a flavorful way... this card is fine. Although I may be biased because this card is nearly identical to the card I was hoping would come from the last Community Makes The Card once enchantment was revealed as the winner, but before black was chosen as the color.
EDIT - Also, if folks want to complain about the color pie, why aren't people up in arms about cards like All Is Dust, Spine of Ish Sah, Brittle Effigy, Tower of Fortunes and Solemn Simulacrum? Those cards allow any color access to sweepers, permanent removal, creature exile, card draw and ramp. At least this card can only be played in green.
EDIT - Also, if folks want to complain about the color pie, why aren't people up in arms about cards like All Is Dust, Spine of Ish Sah, Brittle Effigy, Tower of Fortunes and Solemn Simulacrum? Those cards allow any color access to sweepers, permanent removal, creature exile, card draw and ramp. At least this card can only be played in green.
Artifacts are allowed to do anything at a higher cost.
It does get a bit silly in some cases though, like how Moonglove Extract gives any color a three mana Shock.
The color pie can allow any ability, provided it has a twist to suit the color better.
Please see my signature.
I'm not talking about flavor, I'm talking about mechanical twists. Vendilion Clique does something Blue would normally not be able to do (Disrupts the opponent's hand), but does it in a unique way that seems more Blue (They don't lose a card, they get a different card). Grand Architect lets you accelerate mana, but only to play Artifacts. Back from the Brink reanimates, but by making token copies instead of directly doing it. Curse of Swine... Is flavored as transformation. Okay, I guess that's one out of those that's more flavor than anything else.
The color pie can allow any ability, provided it has a twist to suit the color better.
Please see my signature.
I'm not talking about flavor, I'm talking about mechanical twists. Vendilion Clique does something Blue would normally not be able to do (Disrupts the opponent's hand), but does it in a unique way that seems more Blue (They don't lose a card, they get a different card). Grand Architect lets you accelerate mana, but only to play Artifacts. Back from the Brink reanimates, but by making token copies instead of directly doing it. Curse of Swine... Is flavored as transformation. Okay, I guess that's one out of those that's more flavor than anything else.
Blue is second in hand disruption, Clique is in no way out of either flavor or mechanics. Making tokens and generating mana is something all colors have access to. This is something people seem to forget. Curse is a polymorph effect, which is blue. The problem people have is with exiling which is frankly a templating thing and not a mechanical one.
I mean, if you guys want to use examples of things colors can't do, blue is a poor example as they're generally really on point with it. Not liking something =/= mechanical failure, which Song is.
The color pie can allow any ability, provided it has a twist to suit the color better.
Please see my signature.
I'm not talking about flavor, I'm talking about mechanical twists. Vendilion Clique does something Blue would normally not be able to do (Disrupts the opponent's hand), but does it in a unique way that seems more Blue (They don't lose a card, they get a different card). Grand Architect lets you accelerate mana, but only to play Artifacts. Back from the Brink reanimates, but by making token copies instead of directly doing it. Curse of Swine... Is flavored as transformation. Okay, I guess that's one out of those that's more flavor than anything else.
Blue is second in hand disruption, Clique is in no way out of either flavor or mechanics. Making tokens and generating mana is something all colors have access to. This is something people seem to forget. Curse is a polymorph effect, which is blue. The problem people have is with exiling which is frankly a templating thing and not a mechanical one.
I mean, if you guys want to use examples of things colors can't do, blue is a poor example as they're generally really on point with it. Not liking something =/= mechanical failure, which Song is.
At what point do we start questioning the status quo instead of blindly following it? Just because Blue has always had these abilities, does not mean it should always have this abilities. The game changes, the color pie is reshaped as time goes by, and I personally see nothing wrong with reducing Blue's massive slice of the pie and redistributing it. The opposite is true for colors like Green and Red.
EDIT: I think we had a similar argument awhile about something else...can't remember what. If I remember right, we agreed to disagree which is probably for the best. We have differing philosophies, and well, there isn't much left to say that we both don't already know.
Yeah I mean who are we to say what goes on in the realms of the multiverse of MTG? I mean mages learn, and adapt, and grow stronger, and develop more powerful spells. That's why there are so many types of spells in magic. It's not just Lightning Bolt, Runeclaw Bear, Counterspell, Doomblade, and Healing Salve
To subscribe to a theory of "color pie" is neat and all, but come on, we're talking about a card game juxtaposed by fantasy fiction. Whatever goes on in those worlds is up to the imagination of those that create it. Do I think Green should be the new color for spot removal? No. Do I think the occasional aura that serves as removal is within the bounds of the game, and the color pie for that matter? Yes. This thing's not going to break Legacy or anything, or any other format for that matter, so who cares? It's a good answer for green decks in EDH, that happens to also be flavorful. And that's the end of the story.
Every card that breaks color pie weakens it as a whole, and by extent shifts magic into a different game. Colors can gain and lose mechanics without blatantly ignoring pie because "it's not changing anything".
Ignorant/new/selfish/thoughtless players see pie violations and think they are fine. It is those players who are the blame as to why we can't have a set like Planar Chaos ever again. They don't understand when things can be pushed and pulled because to the uncaring player, color pie is either not needed or infinitely malleable.
Sorry, but those kind of ideas would kill the game if given the chance. I'll take strict mechanical identities over childish wants and hopes.
The color pie can allow any ability, provided it has a twist to suit the color better.
Please see my signature.
I'm not talking about flavor, I'm talking about mechanical twists. Vendilion Clique does something Blue would normally not be able to do (Disrupts the opponent's hand), but does it in a unique way that seems more Blue (They don't lose a card, they get a different card). Grand Architect lets you accelerate mana, but only to play Artifacts. Back from the Brink reanimates, but by making token copies instead of directly doing it. Curse of Swine... Is flavored as transformation. Okay, I guess that's one out of those that's more flavor than anything else.
Blue is second in hand disruption, Clique is in no way out of either flavor or mechanics. Making tokens and generating mana is something all colors have access to. This is something people seem to forget. Curse is a polymorph effect, which is blue. The problem people have is with exiling which is frankly a templating thing and not a mechanical one.
I mean, if you guys want to use examples of things colors can't do, blue is a poor example as they're generally really on point with it. Not liking something =/= mechanical failure, which Song is.
Why are polymorph effects in blue? Polymorph effects represent unconditional removal, so if non-bounce removal is outside of blue's color pie, then so should polymorph effects. Polymorph (and Ovinize, and Curse of the Swine), like Song of the Dryads, is a flavorful effect that in essence slightly twists the color pie. Just because it's existed in the past doesn't give it any more credence; we'd be pointing at Psionic Blast and Prodigal Sorcerer if that were the case. If you don't believe me, look at Ovinize. It's a colorshifted card.
Blue turns creatures into other creatures: that's what it's trying to do flavorfully. What we end up with is creature removal. Green tries to turn creatures into lands and beasts, and what we end up with here is also creature removal.
You can't argue that creature removal is somehow in blue's color pie because Polymorph effects are flavorfully fitting; you're falling into the same pit that you're trying to toss Song of the Dryads in.
Polymorphing requires removal of a creature to change it. If you pay attention you can see they keep trying different ways (destroy, exile, tuck, sacrifice) to get the flavor across. Frankly I think aura's should be the way it's done in blue, but they haven't really done that.
Green however is not the color of polymorphing (do not confuse growth and adaptation to polymorph type spells). Green is the color of natural order it despises change for the sake of change, so it should not get cards that do it just like blue should not get burn. And yes, I'm aware you can link other color pie violations to justify this one. But you'd still be incorrect.
You focus on the wrong aspect and miss what the problem is.
The thing is that Green does get creature removal but only in a roundabout way or with stipulations like Hurricane. This isn't a Green PtE, this is a Green Encrust.
-Chandra Nalaar
For those who are defending it, would you be okay with this card? (This is an honest question.)
Wrath of the Forest 2GG
Sorcery
All creatures become colourless forest lands.
Of course people would be okay with that. But then again, most people don't understand (or care) how important a strict color pie is to magic.
Selfishness and ignorance are blinding forces.
I think that would be broken actually. It would double as ramp, and would need to be reworded to function correctly as a sorcery.
Yes, red needs help, but if any color should have this effect I am pretty sure that everyone is okay with green getting it as it doesn't belong in any other color.
Transformation effects are in Blue because of flavor though. There's no mechanical similarity between Turn to Frog and Pongify beyond targeting a creature.
Also, flavor can justify many color pie violations if it "feels" right. The most obvious example is Form of the Dragon, which provides a non-Red effect (Creatures without Flying can't attack you) that still feels right because you're supposed to be a flying dragon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
This is not an "honest question."
That card is severely out-of-color pie because it only gets rid of creatures. Additionally, this isn't a fair question because the card represented is far stronger than Wrath of God, as it rewards players with lots of smaller-low value creatures (which is in green's strategy). A green deck will simultaneously treat this as a board wrath and a ramp spell, which is about as fair as it sounds.
I am not fine with your presented card, but I am fine with this one. Turning things into lands, or other Pacifism-like effects, is a minor color bleed green gets from white. It is extremely flavorful, and in fact the same card was proposed several times on the create-a-card forum. We see green getting effects like Desert Twister from Magic's very origins. While you may say that this is an archaic concept, like blue getting Psionic Blast, I would say this is not so. Destroying noncreature permanents in particular is considered an extremely green portion of the color pie by today's standards, and "turning creatures into nonliving things" is a natural extension of this flavor. It's why blue receives spells like Curse of the Swine every now and then (in this case extremely recently), because turning creatures into other creatures is considered part of its flavor, even if creature removal isn't directly within its color pie.
Flavor and color pie are inseparable concepts, as the latter is founded on the former. While cards like this (and Curse of the Swine) are not cards that Wizards should print on a daily basis, they're cards that really stretch the limits on what we define colors as, and exist as such. MaRo's supposed distaste in this specific instance is overall representative for his hatred of the format as a whole, and its failure to live up to his design philosophy (with related incidents such as the presence of hybrid/phyrexian mana cards and more).
I applaud Forsythe and friends for stretching the color pie with this effect as well as mono-white dealing damage (with Comeuppance), mono-blue generating tokens (with Reef Worm), mono-black generating tokens (with Gisa), mono-red getting reanimation (with Feldon), and mono-green getting cards that can potentially, but not always remove creatures.
These all create cards that are flavorful home-runs, and more importantly are really a blast to play with. The color pie is a fluid concept that should take on new boundaries as to shift the balance of colors from time to time, and create cards the players as a whole enjoy.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Also, it is worth noting that this card does not make an irreversible change. Remove the aura and the card is a creature again.
This is not how color pie works in magic. In fact it is exactly the opposite.
Untrue. Various meaningful mechanical differences exist between Song of the Dryads and Oblivion Ring. Most obviously, Song of the Dryads can shut down many lands while Oblivion Ring can't do anything to lands. Next, Song of the Dryads never causes enters-the-battlefield abilities to trigger. Third, Oblivion Ring allows you to put its trigger on the stack and then remove it from the battlefield, thus exiling the targeted permanent forever. Fourth, Song of the Dryads allows you to destroy the forest the permanent turns into. Fifth, a commander's controller can chose to send a commander to the command zone if target by Oblivion Ring; that option doesn't exist for Song of the Dryads. Sixth, as an aura, Song of the Dryads doesn't target if it's put directly onto the battlefield such as by Replenish. Etc.
EDIT - Also, if folks want to complain about the color pie, why aren't people up in arms about cards like All Is Dust, Spine of Ish Sah, Brittle Effigy, Tower of Fortunes and Solemn Simulacrum? Those cards allow any color access to sweepers, permanent removal, creature exile, card draw and ramp. At least this card can only be played in green.
What is a significant ability Blue does not have access to?
Direct damage? I'll give you that, though it's not like Green has it either. Fight is creature removal, you use Fight to Lightning Bolt the foe.
Reanimation? Back from the Brink.
Hand disruption? Vendilion Clique.
Tutoring? Treasure Mage.
Mana acceleration? Grand Architect.
Creature removal? Curse of Swine.
Unconditional creature removal? Phyrexian Ingester.
The color pie can allow any ability, provided it has a twist to suit the color better.
Artifacts are allowed to do anything at a higher cost.
It does get a bit silly in some cases though, like how Moonglove Extract gives any color a three mana Shock.
Please see my signature.
I'm not talking about flavor, I'm talking about mechanical twists. Vendilion Clique does something Blue would normally not be able to do (Disrupts the opponent's hand), but does it in a unique way that seems more Blue (They don't lose a card, they get a different card). Grand Architect lets you accelerate mana, but only to play Artifacts. Back from the Brink reanimates, but by making token copies instead of directly doing it. Curse of Swine... Is flavored as transformation. Okay, I guess that's one out of those that's more flavor than anything else.
Blue is second in hand disruption, Clique is in no way out of either flavor or mechanics. Making tokens and generating mana is something all colors have access to. This is something people seem to forget. Curse is a polymorph effect, which is blue. The problem people have is with exiling which is frankly a templating thing and not a mechanical one.
I mean, if you guys want to use examples of things colors can't do, blue is a poor example as they're generally really on point with it. Not liking something =/= mechanical failure, which Song is.
At what point do we start questioning the status quo instead of blindly following it? Just because Blue has always had these abilities, does not mean it should always have this abilities. The game changes, the color pie is reshaped as time goes by, and I personally see nothing wrong with reducing Blue's massive slice of the pie and redistributing it. The opposite is true for colors like Green and Red.
EDIT: I think we had a similar argument awhile about something else...can't remember what. If I remember right, we agreed to disagree which is probably for the best. We have differing philosophies, and well, there isn't much left to say that we both don't already know.
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To subscribe to a theory of "color pie" is neat and all, but come on, we're talking about a card game juxtaposed by fantasy fiction. Whatever goes on in those worlds is up to the imagination of those that create it. Do I think Green should be the new color for spot removal? No. Do I think the occasional aura that serves as removal is within the bounds of the game, and the color pie for that matter? Yes. This thing's not going to break Legacy or anything, or any other format for that matter, so who cares? It's a good answer for green decks in EDH, that happens to also be flavorful. And that's the end of the story.
Ignorant/new/selfish/thoughtless players see pie violations and think they are fine. It is those players who are the blame as to why we can't have a set like Planar Chaos ever again. They don't understand when things can be pushed and pulled because to the uncaring player, color pie is either not needed or infinitely malleable.
Sorry, but those kind of ideas would kill the game if given the chance. I'll take strict mechanical identities over childish wants and hopes.
Why are polymorph effects in blue? Polymorph effects represent unconditional removal, so if non-bounce removal is outside of blue's color pie, then so should polymorph effects. Polymorph (and Ovinize, and Curse of the Swine), like Song of the Dryads, is a flavorful effect that in essence slightly twists the color pie. Just because it's existed in the past doesn't give it any more credence; we'd be pointing at Psionic Blast and Prodigal Sorcerer if that were the case. If you don't believe me, look at Ovinize. It's a colorshifted card.
Blue turns creatures into other creatures: that's what it's trying to do flavorfully. What we end up with is creature removal. Green tries to turn creatures into lands and beasts, and what we end up with here is also creature removal.
You can't argue that creature removal is somehow in blue's color pie because Polymorph effects are flavorfully fitting; you're falling into the same pit that you're trying to toss Song of the Dryads in.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Green however is not the color of polymorphing (do not confuse growth and adaptation to polymorph type spells). Green is the color of natural order it despises change for the sake of change, so it should not get cards that do it just like blue should not get burn. And yes, I'm aware you can link other color pie violations to justify this one. But you'd still be incorrect.
You focus on the wrong aspect and miss what the problem is.