People are really underrating this card; from testing, she can bring in a lot of utility from the command zone. She's the type of commander you're happy to have, as opposed to one that necessarily needs to be built around.
^ I feel like having her out would prevent players to play their artifact and enchantment cards that will generate them a lot of advantage or threat. This is more effective then surprising them with a naturalize. With their threat on board prior to, they have already gained benefit from the card. With her out, it prevents them from playing it due to it being blown up within a turn. She is a great utility commander, something a lot are lacking. I feel she is a great utility to have in the command zone.
I dunno... The beauty about naturalize effects are their surprise factor. This one you could see it coming if she's your commander.
So they don't play their strong artifacts or enchantments out of fear of being Time Walked? That's fine with you too, you play Freyalise, go to 5 and threaten ultimate in 2 turns. If they play them, then you decide to tick down and go to work. If someone manages to deal with her, you got a couple Llanowar Elves out of the deal.
A lot of people are underestimating the value she brings to the Command Zone. Also, between mana rocks, Exploration, and Joraga Treespeaker, it's not hard to land her by T3, where she's absolutely insane at swinging the game in your favor (either by neutralizing opposing mana rocks or developing your board and threatening large CA).
It's a game of choices then. I'll play out what I think will be a "weaker" card and bait it. That said, I'm not disagreeing with the rattlesnake vibe she gives. But I will prefer Oblivion Stone, Pernicious Deed effects. She's repeatable, but again, it's the surprise factor I value more.
Personally, I feel she's better in the 99 rather than the general.
It's a game of choices then. I'll play out what I think will be a "weaker" card and bait it. That said, I'm not disagreeing with the rattlesnake vibe she gives. But I will say that Oblivion Stone, Pernicious Deed effects. She's repeatable, but again, it's the surprise factor I value more.
Personally, I feel she's better in the 99 rather than the general.
I feel she's actually pretty underpowered in the 99. In the 99, you have far better or cheaper options for artifact/enchantment removal. Not to say she's weak there, but I find hard-pressed to find optimal lists that would take a dedicated slot for her. Whereas as the general, you can focus on powering her out really early and ulting fast.
Just different interpretations I guess. Then again, I may certainly be biased because she's my favorite character in MTG history, and I'd be trying to find excuses to run her even if she was absolutely unredeemable (which she fortunately is not).
Her +2 combos with Skullclamp, though not as hard as Nahiri. Still, I think the naturalize is going to be highly valuable in the command zone and I'm looking forward to it.
People are really underrating this card; from testing, she can bring in a lot of utility from the command zone. She's the type of commander you're happy to have, as opposed to one that necessarily needs to be built around.
I agree. She actually fills the desired toolbox roles mono green tends to have a rough time with: extra bodies after a board wipe, artifacts/enchantments that shut down creature decks and a source of drawing cards.
Most generals in green only focus on ramp. I have found that's the one thing it does not need in the command zone by now. The other day I was playing my Omnath deck and a opponent had a Torpor Orb out, shutting down over 70% of my deck. I found myself wanting Freyalise more and more.
I also agree with what you said about green and ramp generals; it's why I always advocated Kamahl as perhaps the most well-rounded green general going into C14, because he allowed you to run green's ramp suite without having to worry about simultaneously trying to build around your general (Omnath or Azusa's) ramp effect.
I'm really excited to get some more testing with Freyalise in (I've had 5-10 or so proxy games with her); she's just a blast to play with all around. You do have to be careful about cutting back on artifact/enchantment removal though, because you can get shut down by opposing Pithing Needles and Nevermores if you're not careful. I view her as even more artifact/enchantment hate as opposed to a supplicant source, and that seems to work well.
Also, to the people saying that she should have started on 5 loyalty; she already does. You tick her up when she lands (she enters the battlefield with an Elvish Mystic) and she's good to go. It's awkward if you're in a desperate enough spot to be forced to cast and immediately -2, but if you're in that situation you're actually pretty glad you had that route to take.
Yeah on-board Naturalize is no joke in EDH. It's very stifling to some decks. Also I've found that PWs in green heavy-ramp decks are very hard to deal with because they can come down early when there aren't a lot of threats on the board. I've had time to think about her and she's super solid as just another monogreen PW. I'm not thrilled with her in non-monogreen decks, and I mean she's fine as a commander but not as good as Ezuri, Renegade Leader, and probably not as good as Omnath, Locus of Mana.
Yeah on-board Naturalize is no joke in EDH. It's very stifling to some decks. Also I've found that PWs in green heavy-ramp decks are very hard to deal with because they can come down early when there aren't a lot of threats on the board. I've had time to think about her and she's super solid as just another monogreen PW. I'm not thrilled with her in non-monogreen decks, and I mean she's fine as a commander but not as good as Ezuri, Renegade Leader, and probably not as good as Omnath, Locus of Mana.
Omnath's pretty overrated as a Commander, and she's better than Ezuri as long as you're not running Elf tribal.
I, like a few others here are a little biased toward the character herself. I was a little let down when I first saw her though. After playtesting with some mock-ups however, she's much better than I gave her credit for. It really comes down to her repeatability. Her +2 fuels the ability to recast her from the command zone, which means more card draw/naturalize effects. These are things Green always needs and now we can use them repeatedly. She is very much a rattlesnake, either in the command zone or in play. Your opponents will know that she's there and what she's capable of, which lead to them playing around her and putting themselves behind.
She's great as a commander, not sure about in the 99 since that repeatability is lost.
Yeah on-board Naturalize is no joke in EDH. It's very stifling to some decks. Also I've found that PWs in green heavy-ramp decks are very hard to deal with because they can come down early when there aren't a lot of threats on the board. I've had time to think about her and she's super solid as just another monogreen PW. I'm not thrilled with her in non-monogreen decks, and I mean she's fine as a commander but not as good as Ezuri, Renegade Leader, and probably not as good as Omnath, Locus of Mana.
Omnath's pretty overrated as a Commander, and she's better than Ezuri as long as you're not running Elf tribal.
Yeah she's obviously better than Ezuri in non-elves. Why would you ever play Ezuri in non-elves? I looked at your Freyalise list, and I know for a fact that my Ezuri deck would beat that deck 9/10 times. That's what I was getting at with Ezuri being better. The deck he commands is better.
Omnath is a fine commander, but I will say he's a bit vulnerable because he's got such a huge target. But if you can pack a lot of hexproof spells and abilities into your deck, he can be quite good.
Freyalise isn't as good of a commander in your deck as Azusa would be btw (though obviously you'd have to up your land count). I imagine she was your commander before the switch since she's still in the deck.
Yeah on-board Naturalize is no joke in EDH. It's very stifling to some decks. Also I've found that PWs in green heavy-ramp decks are very hard to deal with because they can come down early when there aren't a lot of threats on the board. I've had time to think about her and she's super solid as just another monogreen PW. I'm not thrilled with her in non-monogreen decks, and I mean she's fine as a commander but not as good as Ezuri, Renegade Leader, and probably not as good as Omnath, Locus of Mana.
Omnath's pretty overrated as a Commander, and she's better than Ezuri as long as you're not running Elf tribal.
Yeah she's obviously better than Ezuri in non-elves. Why would you ever play Ezuri in non-elves? I looked at your Freyalise list, and I know for a fact that my Ezuri deck would beat that deck 9/10 times. That's what I was getting at with Ezuri being better. The deck he commands is better.
Omnath is a fine commander, but I will say he's a bit vulnerable because he's got such a huge target. But if you can pack a lot of hexproof spells and abilities into your deck, he can be quite good.
Freyalise isn't as good of a commander in your deck as Azusa would be btw (though obviously you'd have to up your land count). I imagine she was your commander before the switch since she's still in the deck.
Actually, Azusa was not my Commander before the switch; my Commander was Kamahl.
I also have a confession to make; I've never found an Ezuri deck thay was as strong as people made it out to be. I've played players who have regaled me of tales of turn 4 kills every game, but the deck honestly can't pull it off well at all, and even the smallest amount of disruption kills the deck. I feel Elfball is a relatively terrible deck in this format after trying several of the builds online, but I act as if it's better because to argue against the deck's fans is insufferable.
I have played with Azusa and Omnath however, but I still find them relatively overrated. While they are at least more capable of T4 kills than Ezuri, they still can't kill that quickly or consistently; and in increase in the former overwhelmingly leads to a decrease in the latter. If your T2-T3 Asusa gets countered in the Azusa-centric deck, you're not doing anything for a number of turns; and due to the higher land count, there's a not-insignificant chance of you doing nothing even if you get everything else you want. I will not deny her power, though.
Omnath on the other hand is one of the biggest paper tiger commanders I've ever played. While the ability to battery all your mana seems strong, in reality the effect is not powerful with respect to getting blown out by any simple removal. You can start regaling me with tales of Aluren and Lightning Greaves, but then you're reducing your explosiveness by setting all your plays back a couple turns (remember, we're supposed to be talking TURN 4-6 kills here). I've tried both the dork-heavy and dork-light versions, and the deck is not explosive even given undisrupted play in the same manner that Azusa is.
That brings us to Kamahl and Freyalise. Why do I feel these Commanders are preferable? Well, you're not "all-in" on your general. I'm a big proponent of Tron in Modern, and while I recognize the power of a T3-T4 kill, what I value more is the ability to present inevitability in the face of significant disruption. Unlike Azusa or Omnath, you are no longer bound to constructing your deck in a manner that "wins fast or loses", while still providing a significantly fast clock.
Kamahl provides that inevitability in terms of winning the late-game if for some reason you don't get there early. Freyalise's ultimate, however is unique: I'be won most games within a single turn of resolving her ultimate, and generally I win on the spot. If you're counting, that puts my kill window between Turns 5 and 6, with the occasional Turn 4 or 7 (Turn 4 with Mana Vault, Turn 7 with no ramp). Now, this plan is every bit as vulnerable as Omnath or Azusa's - why am I acting like this is different? Because following this plan does not compromise the rest of the deck. In games in which this plan does not work for some reason, I'm only set back in general 1-2 turns. And if I'm disrupted again, I still don't lose anything. That consistency, stability, and resiliency combined with the ability to make room for powerful sweepers like Oblivion Stone and All Is Dust really makes me value Freyalise higher than Omnath and Ezuri, if not Azusa (who is likely powerful enough for her sacrifices in inevitability).
Slivortal, you seem to have given mono-green commanders a great deal of thought. Tell me, what do you think of Patron of the Orochi as a variant ramp commander? I've been running it for about 1.5 years now and can speak with authority about Patron, but I'm curious to get someone else's opinion, especially someone who has given this topic a lot of consideration.
Patron falls much more in the Kamahl area of things than the Omnath/Azuza/Ezuri area of course, but I'd still love your thoughts if you're willing to opine for a bit.
And as a note, I have a very strong Ezuri deck in my meta that I've played against for years as well. I am happy to talk about him as well, if you'd like. Ezuri is a kind of misunderstood beast, honestly. He's not quite as linear as Omnath/Azuza (which basically fold to any sustained pressure, as I'm sure you know).
Slivortal, you seem to have given mono-green commanders a great deal of thought. Tell me, what do you think of Patron of the Orochi as a variant ramp commander? I've been running it for about 1.5 years now and can speak with authority about Patron, but I'm curious to get someone else's opinion, especially someone who has given this topic a lot of consideration.
Patron falls much more in the Kamahl area of things than the Omnath/Azuza/Ezuri area of course, but I'd still love your thoughts if you're willing to opine for a bit.
And as a note, I have a very strong Ezuri deck in my meta that I've played against for years as well. I am happy to talk about him as well, if you'd like. Ezuri is a kind of misunderstood beast, honestly. He's not quite as linear as Omnath/Azuza (which basically fold to any sustained pressure, as I'm sure you know).
I really like Patron, it's just unfortunate that I'd like him so much better if he didn't ramp your enemies. I find the splash damage of even cards like Vernal Bloom hard to stomach, so I've never really taken the time to try him out at the helm. If he didn't have a global effect I'd have run him in a heartbeat, though.
With that said, I think he's obviously very powerful. He scales well in multiplayer, should draw minimal hate (at first), and has several cards in-color that synergize well with his abilities.
I also ran Vorinclex for a period of time, which I assume would be somewhat similar. Very awkward in that he doesn't provide any form of CA and the table actively wants to kill him, but he didn't work as badly as one would have expected. The more expensive commanders means your deck functions better without them, as you're not relying on your commanders to do the first leg (of getting to 8 mana).
It was ultimately my time with Vorinclex that led me to Kamahl, as Kamahl is the ultimate mana sink commander. However, I've found that I'd like to be a little more active at this point, so Freyalise has been nice to have access to a nice set of "spells" that can be cast mid-game (instead of having your general do nothing until you've reached ~15-20 mana).
And I'm curious to hear about the possible non-linear nature of Ezuri. All the Ezuri builds I've seen have been active attempts to Llanowar Elves/Heritage Druid into G-Waves, Craterhoofs, and Ezuri-Overruns.
I've played solely mono-green since Innistrad, so I consider myself at least somewhat knowledgable in the subject. Ezuri and Patron are two of the few strategies I haven't personally run (for the above reasons), so I'd be curious to hear your takes.
I also have a confession to make; I've never found an Ezuri deck thay was as strong as people made it out to be. I've played players who have regaled me of tales of turn 4 kills every game, but the deck honestly can't pull it off well at all, and even the smallest amount of disruption kills the deck. I feel Elfball is a relatively terrible deck in this format after trying several of the builds online, but I act as if it's better because to argue against the deck's fans is insufferable.
LOL how is that a confession? "I have a confession to make. Your claims are false, and your deck is terrible." Boy, that took a lot of guts making that "confession."
I challenge you to a 1v1 skype match, best out of 3. Your current Freyalise deck against my deck. Put your money where your mouth is. I guess we could always find an online method as well, but I'm not very familiar with Cockatrice, so I'd have to acquaint myself with that client.
I also have a confession to make; I've never found an Ezuri deck thay was as strong as people made it out to be. I've played players who have regaled me of tales of turn 4 kills every game, but the deck honestly can't pull it off well at all, and even the smallest amount of disruption kills the deck. I feel Elfball is a relatively terrible deck in this format after trying several of the builds online, but I act as if it's better because to argue against the deck's fans is insufferable.
LOL how is that a confession? "I have a confession to make. Your claims are false, and your deck is terrible." Boy, that took a lot of guts making that "confession."
I challenge you to a 1v1 skype match, best out of 3. Your current Freyalise deck against my deck. Put your money where your mouth is.
My "confession" was that I've been claiming a deck is good when I've found no evidence that it's actually so. I didn't mean to offend you, but that's simply the reality that I've perceived when it comes to Ezuri decks. I never claimed the deck was objectively terrible, I've just claimed that I've never found a version that was actually good despite its claims (subjectively terrible, if you will).
I don't play Magic over Skype, but if you could provide me with a list that's as explosive as most people claim, perhaps I could see where you're coming from. I'm open-minded enough to accept that I may be wrong (though at the moment I'm nowhere near convinced).
Also, this is a multiplayer EDH discussion, and claiming that we can find a definitive answer via a small set of 1v1 games is not a very promising statement.
I also have a confession to make; I've never found an Ezuri deck thay was as strong as people made it out to be. I've played players who have regaled me of tales of turn 4 kills every game, but the deck honestly can't pull it off well at all, and even the smallest amount of disruption kills the deck. I feel Elfball is a relatively terrible deck in this format after trying several of the builds online, but I act as if it's better because to argue against the deck's fans is insufferable.
LOL how is that a confession? "I have a confession to make. Your claims are false, and your deck is terrible." Boy, that took a lot of guts making that "confession."
I challenge you to a 1v1 skype match, best out of 3. Your current Freyalise deck against my deck. Put your money where your mouth is.
My "confession" was that I've been claiming a deck is good when I've found no evidence that it's actually so. I didn't mean to offend you, but that's simply the reality that I've perceived when it comes to Ezuri decks. I never claimed the deck was objectively terrible, I've just claimed that I've never found a version that was actually good despite its claims (subjectively terrible, if you will).
I don't play Magic over Skype, but if you could provide me with a list that's as explosive as most people claim, perhaps I could see where you're coming from. I'm open-minded enough to accept that I may be wrong (though at the moment I'm nowhere near convinced).
Also, this is a multiplayer EDH discussion, and claiming that we can find a definitive answer via a small set of 1v1 games is not a very promising statement.
Well, I don't share my lists online. It's not like there's any secret to my deck, but I'm not going to broadcast it either. I figured you would back out of the challenge though. I'll take it as a concession to my challenge, and an admission that I have the better deck.
Also, your problem with a "small set" is easily remedied by playing more games. I'm confident my deck will win at least 8/10 games, and that's only because of mana screw or flood or things of that nature. It would win 100% of the games where that wasn't an issue.
I just built my deck on Cockatrice in the time it took you to post, so there's really no barrier. It's merely a point of you realizing that you're probably wrong in the scenario, or at least not courageous enough to back up your opinionated claims.
My post didn't edit for some reason, but I built my deck on Cockatrice. If you get enough courage to test your theory about Ezuri being worse than Freyalise, come shoot me a PM. We can play 10 games, and guarantee I will win at least 8 of them. The only ones I will possibly lose are due to mana flood or something of that nature.
I also have a confession to make; I've never found an Ezuri deck thay was as strong as people made it out to be. I've played players who have regaled me of tales of turn 4 kills every game, but the deck honestly can't pull it off well at all, and even the smallest amount of disruption kills the deck. I feel Elfball is a relatively terrible deck in this format after trying several of the builds online, but I act as if it's better because to argue against the deck's fans is insufferable.
LOL how is that a confession? "I have a confession to make. Your claims are false, and your deck is terrible." Boy, that took a lot of guts making that "confession."
I challenge you to a 1v1 skype match, best out of 3. Your current Freyalise deck against my deck. Put your money where your mouth is.
My "confession" was that I've been claiming a deck is good when I've found no evidence that it's actually so. I didn't mean to offend you, but that's simply the reality that I've perceived when it comes to Ezuri decks. I never claimed the deck was objectively terrible, I've just claimed that I've never found a version that was actually good despite its claims (subjectively terrible, if you will).
I don't play Magic over Skype, but if you could provide me with a list that's as explosive as most people claim, perhaps I could see where you're coming from. I'm open-minded enough to accept that I may be wrong (though at the moment I'm nowhere near convinced).
Also, this is a multiplayer EDH discussion, and claiming that we can find a definitive answer via a small set of 1v1 games is not a very promising statement.
Well, I don't share my lists online. It's not like there's any secret to my deck, but I'm not going to broadcast it either. I figured you would back out of the challenge though. I'll take it as a concession to my challenge, and an admission that I have the better deck.
Also, your problem with a "small set" is easily remedied by playing more games. I'm confident my deck will win at least 8/10 games, and that's only because of mana screw or flood or things of that nature. It would win 100% of the games where that wasn't an issue.
I just built my deck on Cockatrice in the time it took you to post, so there's really no barrier. It's merely a point of you realizing that you're probably wrong in the scenario, or at least not courageous enough to back up your opinionated claims.
Sure, "tough guy"; you got me. Frankly, I don't care about facing someone who shares your kind of attitude about the manner at hand. Just because I don't feel like playing against someone who has shown nothing but outright hostility on a forum for Magic cards completely vindicates all of your prior claims, and if that makes you happy, feel free to feel that way. I have better things to do with my time than to spend the better part of 3 to 4 hours to satisfy your twisted nature.
Additionally, for someone who claims to be so well-versed about building competitive decks, you seem to be carefully skipping around the point of prior knowledge of decklists. My decklist is public, and without making your decklist similarly public we could never have a fair fight. So forgive me if I don't take you or your claims seriously. Not knowing your decklist puts me at a 45/55-40/60 disadvantage from the start, and I'm not playing those odds.
EDIT: Also, your post fails to take into account metagames or the multiplayer facet of the format. I'm speaking of building strictly multiplayer EDH decks here, and I have a fine Maelstrom Wanderer 1v1 French list if that was really the way you wanted to take things. Also, a single deck beating another shows very little about the general power level of either lists. If I was running a WBx deck full to the brim of sweepers, I'd assume that my deck would win where yours would lose. The failure to take facts like this into account and portray a "1v1 me ******" type attitude just shows how ridiculous your challenge is.
Magic games and decklist rankings are not a shootout in the wild west. I'd be happy to discuss the matter with you civilly, but again I've received no indication that that is your intention or desire.
Additionally, for someone who claims to be so well-versed about building competitive decks, you seem to be carefully skipping around the point of prior knowledge of decklists. My decklist is public, and without making your decklist similarly public we could never have a fair fight. So forgive me if I don't take you or your claims seriously. Not knowing your decklist puts me at a 45/55-40/60 disadvantage from the start, and I'm not playing those odds.
Of course that would be unfair. I would obviously give you my list via PM before the games. I'm just tired of your claims. Just back them up or stop making them. It's not a "tough guy" attitude, just don't say Ezuri's bad and Freyalise is good if you're not willing to test the theory. Because you're just blowing hot air at that point.
Additionally, for someone who claims to be so well-versed about building competitive decks, you seem to be carefully skipping around the point of prior knowledge of decklists. My decklist is public, and without making your decklist similarly public we could never have a fair fight. So forgive me if I don't take you or your claims seriously. Not knowing your decklist puts me at a 45/55-40/60 disadvantage from the start, and I'm not playing those odds.
Of course that would be unfair. I would obviously give you my list via PM before the games. I'm just tired of your claims. Just back them up or stop making them. It's not a "tough guy" attitude, just don't say Ezuri's bad and Freyalise is good if you're not willing to test the theory. Because you're just blowing hot air at that point.
I never said Ezuri was unequivocally bad. I've just said that I've never seen or played against a list that I thought was even average, let alone good. Could it be that I've just been playing all the wrong people and seeing all the wrong lists? Perhaps. But subjectively, that makes Ezuri seem pretty terrible from my perspective. I normally act as if he's a good general because people claim they have crazy elfball lists, but without one in front of me, I have to work off of what I have seen.
We're at an impasse; I don't like playing on Cockatrice/Skype, and you're not willing to let me take a peek at your list. Unless one of these two factors change (and I don't forsee either of them doing so), then we have to admit that we are facing down subjective differences that will not be resolved.
Also, the Freyalise vs. Ezuri matchup is tipped in Ezuri's favor from the sheer nature of the matchup; Ezuri's weakness is (presumably) removal (especially en masse), which my deck can't run a lot of. My deck's weakness is pressuring Freyalise backed by a fast clock, which you can do easily. Even if we were to remove the lens of "is this good and is this bad," the specific matchup is presumably nowhere near in my favor. My deck's meant to prey on the majority of control lists and combo lists that can't properly pressure Freyalise, while your list is (again, presumably) meant to prey on decks like mine (that fall apart to that early pressure backed by the quick clock). I haven't seen the Ezuri list that actually pulls it off, but I'll assumedly take your word for it since you seem so assured.
At risk of sounding pretentious, I'm pretty confident in my deck evaluation skills. I manage the G(r) Tron primer in the Modern section, and I've played the game for a long time. If your list is as good as you say it is, I'm pretty sure I'll have a good shot at recognizing it.
Again, my problem is that I haven't seen this crazy list that everyone's talking about (and all the Ezuri lists in the decklist database are pretty bad). If you're worried about me finding some kind of secret tech, just strip it out and PM the list to me. I'm more than willing to change my mind on matters, and I'm not looking to save face.
I never said Ezuri was unequivocally bad. I've just said that I've never seen or played against a list that I thought was even average, let alone good.
Again, my problem is that I haven't seen this crazy list that everyone's talking about (and all the Ezuri lists in the decklist database are pretty bad).
You are a such a contradictionist. It's hilarious. "I never said he's bad, just that every list I've seen or played against is bad."
Anyway, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. BTW, in your write-up you talk about how scared of Freyalise everyone was. That's a clear indication you're in an extremely weak meta. Freyalise is NOT that good. She's a below-average planeswalker, especially compared to any Garruk. I wouldn't even think about countering her. She doesn't do anything unless you're playing her as a 5 mana naturalize.
I never said Ezuri was unequivocally bad. I've just said that I've never seen or played against a list that I thought was even average, let alone good.
Again, my problem is that I haven't seen this crazy list that everyone's talking about (and all the Ezuri lists in the decklist database are pretty bad).
You are a such a contradictionist. It's hilarious. "I never said he's bad, just that every list I've seen or played against is bad."
Anyway, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. BTW, in your write-up you talk about how scared of Freyalise everyone was. That's a clear indication you're in an extremely weak meta. Freyalise is NOT that good. She's a below-average planeswalker, especially compared to any Garruk. I wouldn't even think about countering her. She doesn't do anything unless you're playing her as a 5 mana naturalize.
It was more that she was new, and no one understood what her abilities were. Though you're partially right; of the 3-4 metas I play in (I travel a lot), that one is probably the lowest in power level.
And it's not contradictionist - what's the alternative? That all the Ezuri lists I've played are bad, therefore he is bad? That is the epitome of flawed logic via anecdotal evidence. I've simply stated that every list I've played or seen has been terrible - what conclusion do you feel that I should draw from that? I'm very confused as to what you want me to say here. Is "Every Ezuri list I've had personal experience with is bad, therefore all Ezuri lists are bad" not contradictionist? Because it sure feels flawed to me. What I'm saying is that until I see otherwise, all I can assume is that Ezuri lists are bad because no one actually can provide me with a good one.
If you have something to contribute to the discussion, please contribute. I've listed my evidence, now the impetus is on you to prove me otherwise. I'm not setting up some kind of probatio diabolica here - I'm simply asking for some kind of Ezuri list that can win a 3-4 player pod within the first 5-6 turns of the game consistently assuming no disruption, and can still do well in spite of disruption. If you can't contribute anything along those lines, then I guess you really just enjoy arguing without backing up your arguments.
Also, calling Freyalise a "5-mana Naturalize" means that you clearly don't understand how the card works. If all you do whenever you play her is -2 her, no wonder she's been working terribly for you. Of her three abilities her -2 is the weakest.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
WBR Alesha's Death Brigade WBR
WWW Brigid the Battlefield Saboteur WWW
UB Wydwen, the Biting Gale UB
So they don't play their strong artifacts or enchantments out of fear of being Time Walked? That's fine with you too, you play Freyalise, go to 5 and threaten ultimate in 2 turns. If they play them, then you decide to tick down and go to work. If someone manages to deal with her, you got a couple Llanowar Elves out of the deal.
A lot of people are underestimating the value she brings to the Command Zone. Also, between mana rocks, Exploration, and Joraga Treespeaker, it's not hard to land her by T3, where she's absolutely insane at swinging the game in your favor (either by neutralizing opposing mana rocks or developing your board and threatening large CA).
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Personally, I feel she's better in the 99 rather than the general.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I feel she's actually pretty underpowered in the 99. In the 99, you have far better or cheaper options for artifact/enchantment removal. Not to say she's weak there, but I find hard-pressed to find optimal lists that would take a dedicated slot for her. Whereas as the general, you can focus on powering her out really early and ulting fast.
Just different interpretations I guess. Then again, I may certainly be biased because she's my favorite character in MTG history, and I'd be trying to find excuses to run her even if she was absolutely unredeemable (which she fortunately is not).
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
Yeah, Freyalise really does a lot of work vs. Torpor Orb and Humility.
I also agree with what you said about green and ramp generals; it's why I always advocated Kamahl as perhaps the most well-rounded green general going into C14, because he allowed you to run green's ramp suite without having to worry about simultaneously trying to build around your general (Omnath or Azusa's) ramp effect.
I'm really excited to get some more testing with Freyalise in (I've had 5-10 or so proxy games with her); she's just a blast to play with all around. You do have to be careful about cutting back on artifact/enchantment removal though, because you can get shut down by opposing Pithing Needles and Nevermores if you're not careful. I view her as even more artifact/enchantment hate as opposed to a supplicant source, and that seems to work well.
Also, to the people saying that she should have started on 5 loyalty; she already does. You tick her up when she lands (she enters the battlefield with an Elvish Mystic) and she's good to go. It's awkward if you're in a desperate enough spot to be forced to cast and immediately -2, but if you're in that situation you're actually pretty glad you had that route to take.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Omnath's pretty overrated as a Commander, and she's better than Ezuri as long as you're not running Elf tribal.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
She's great as a commander, not sure about in the 99 since that repeatability is lost.
Yeah she's obviously better than Ezuri in non-elves. Why would you ever play Ezuri in non-elves? I looked at your Freyalise list, and I know for a fact that my Ezuri deck would beat that deck 9/10 times. That's what I was getting at with Ezuri being better. The deck he commands is better.
Omnath is a fine commander, but I will say he's a bit vulnerable because he's got such a huge target. But if you can pack a lot of hexproof spells and abilities into your deck, he can be quite good.
Freyalise isn't as good of a commander in your deck as Azusa would be btw (though obviously you'd have to up your land count). I imagine she was your commander before the switch since she's still in the deck.
Actually, Azusa was not my Commander before the switch; my Commander was Kamahl.
I also have a confession to make; I've never found an Ezuri deck thay was as strong as people made it out to be. I've played players who have regaled me of tales of turn 4 kills every game, but the deck honestly can't pull it off well at all, and even the smallest amount of disruption kills the deck. I feel Elfball is a relatively terrible deck in this format after trying several of the builds online, but I act as if it's better because to argue against the deck's fans is insufferable.
I have played with Azusa and Omnath however, but I still find them relatively overrated. While they are at least more capable of T4 kills than Ezuri, they still can't kill that quickly or consistently; and in increase in the former overwhelmingly leads to a decrease in the latter. If your T2-T3 Asusa gets countered in the Azusa-centric deck, you're not doing anything for a number of turns; and due to the higher land count, there's a not-insignificant chance of you doing nothing even if you get everything else you want. I will not deny her power, though.
Omnath on the other hand is one of the biggest paper tiger commanders I've ever played. While the ability to battery all your mana seems strong, in reality the effect is not powerful with respect to getting blown out by any simple removal. You can start regaling me with tales of Aluren and Lightning Greaves, but then you're reducing your explosiveness by setting all your plays back a couple turns (remember, we're supposed to be talking TURN 4-6 kills here). I've tried both the dork-heavy and dork-light versions, and the deck is not explosive even given undisrupted play in the same manner that Azusa is.
That brings us to Kamahl and Freyalise. Why do I feel these Commanders are preferable? Well, you're not "all-in" on your general. I'm a big proponent of Tron in Modern, and while I recognize the power of a T3-T4 kill, what I value more is the ability to present inevitability in the face of significant disruption. Unlike Azusa or Omnath, you are no longer bound to constructing your deck in a manner that "wins fast or loses", while still providing a significantly fast clock.
Kamahl provides that inevitability in terms of winning the late-game if for some reason you don't get there early. Freyalise's ultimate, however is unique: I'be won most games within a single turn of resolving her ultimate, and generally I win on the spot. If you're counting, that puts my kill window between Turns 5 and 6, with the occasional Turn 4 or 7 (Turn 4 with Mana Vault, Turn 7 with no ramp). Now, this plan is every bit as vulnerable as Omnath or Azusa's - why am I acting like this is different? Because following this plan does not compromise the rest of the deck. In games in which this plan does not work for some reason, I'm only set back in general 1-2 turns. And if I'm disrupted again, I still don't lose anything. That consistency, stability, and resiliency combined with the ability to make room for powerful sweepers like Oblivion Stone and All Is Dust really makes me value Freyalise higher than Omnath and Ezuri, if not Azusa (who is likely powerful enough for her sacrifices in inevitability).
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Patron falls much more in the Kamahl area of things than the Omnath/Azuza/Ezuri area of course, but I'd still love your thoughts if you're willing to opine for a bit.
And as a note, I have a very strong Ezuri deck in my meta that I've played against for years as well. I am happy to talk about him as well, if you'd like. Ezuri is a kind of misunderstood beast, honestly. He's not quite as linear as Omnath/Azuza (which basically fold to any sustained pressure, as I'm sure you know).
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Radha, Heir to Keld, Barrin, Master Wizard, Prime Speaker Zegana, King Macar, the Gold-Cursed, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Nicol Bolas, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, Hanna, Ship's Navigator, Marton Stromgald, Thriss, Nantuko Primus, Cromat, Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
I really like Patron, it's just unfortunate that I'd like him so much better if he didn't ramp your enemies. I find the splash damage of even cards like Vernal Bloom hard to stomach, so I've never really taken the time to try him out at the helm. If he didn't have a global effect I'd have run him in a heartbeat, though.
With that said, I think he's obviously very powerful. He scales well in multiplayer, should draw minimal hate (at first), and has several cards in-color that synergize well with his abilities.
I also ran Vorinclex for a period of time, which I assume would be somewhat similar. Very awkward in that he doesn't provide any form of CA and the table actively wants to kill him, but he didn't work as badly as one would have expected. The more expensive commanders means your deck functions better without them, as you're not relying on your commanders to do the first leg (of getting to 8 mana).
It was ultimately my time with Vorinclex that led me to Kamahl, as Kamahl is the ultimate mana sink commander. However, I've found that I'd like to be a little more active at this point, so Freyalise has been nice to have access to a nice set of "spells" that can be cast mid-game (instead of having your general do nothing until you've reached ~15-20 mana).
And I'm curious to hear about the possible non-linear nature of Ezuri. All the Ezuri builds I've seen have been active attempts to Llanowar Elves/Heritage Druid into G-Waves, Craterhoofs, and Ezuri-Overruns.
I've played solely mono-green since Innistrad, so I consider myself at least somewhat knowledgable in the subject. Ezuri and Patron are two of the few strategies I haven't personally run (for the above reasons), so I'd be curious to hear your takes.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
LOL how is that a confession? "I have a confession to make. Your claims are false, and your deck is terrible." Boy, that took a lot of guts making that "confession."
I challenge you to a 1v1 skype match, best out of 3. Your current Freyalise deck against my deck. Put your money where your mouth is. I guess we could always find an online method as well, but I'm not very familiar with Cockatrice, so I'd have to acquaint myself with that client.
My "confession" was that I've been claiming a deck is good when I've found no evidence that it's actually so. I didn't mean to offend you, but that's simply the reality that I've perceived when it comes to Ezuri decks. I never claimed the deck was objectively terrible, I've just claimed that I've never found a version that was actually good despite its claims (subjectively terrible, if you will).
I don't play Magic over Skype, but if you could provide me with a list that's as explosive as most people claim, perhaps I could see where you're coming from. I'm open-minded enough to accept that I may be wrong (though at the moment I'm nowhere near convinced).
Also, this is a multiplayer EDH discussion, and claiming that we can find a definitive answer via a small set of 1v1 games is not a very promising statement.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Well, I don't share my lists online. It's not like there's any secret to my deck, but I'm not going to broadcast it either. I figured you would back out of the challenge though. I'll take it as a concession to my challenge, and an admission that I have the better deck.
Also, your problem with a "small set" is easily remedied by playing more games. I'm confident my deck will win at least 8/10 games, and that's only because of mana screw or flood or things of that nature. It would win 100% of the games where that wasn't an issue.
I just built my deck on Cockatrice in the time it took you to post, so there's really no barrier. It's merely a point of you realizing that you're probably wrong in the scenario, or at least not courageous enough to back up your opinionated claims.
Sure, "tough guy"; you got me. Frankly, I don't care about facing someone who shares your kind of attitude about the manner at hand. Just because I don't feel like playing against someone who has shown nothing but outright hostility on a forum for Magic cards completely vindicates all of your prior claims, and if that makes you happy, feel free to feel that way. I have better things to do with my time than to spend the better part of 3 to 4 hours to satisfy your twisted nature.
Additionally, for someone who claims to be so well-versed about building competitive decks, you seem to be carefully skipping around the point of prior knowledge of decklists. My decklist is public, and without making your decklist similarly public we could never have a fair fight. So forgive me if I don't take you or your claims seriously. Not knowing your decklist puts me at a 45/55-40/60 disadvantage from the start, and I'm not playing those odds.
EDIT: Also, your post fails to take into account metagames or the multiplayer facet of the format. I'm speaking of building strictly multiplayer EDH decks here, and I have a fine Maelstrom Wanderer 1v1 French list if that was really the way you wanted to take things. Also, a single deck beating another shows very little about the general power level of either lists. If I was running a WBx deck full to the brim of sweepers, I'd assume that my deck would win where yours would lose. The failure to take facts like this into account and portray a "1v1 me ******" type attitude just shows how ridiculous your challenge is.
Magic games and decklist rankings are not a shootout in the wild west. I'd be happy to discuss the matter with you civilly, but again I've received no indication that that is your intention or desire.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Of course that would be unfair. I would obviously give you my list via PM before the games. I'm just tired of your claims. Just back them up or stop making them. It's not a "tough guy" attitude, just don't say Ezuri's bad and Freyalise is good if you're not willing to test the theory. Because you're just blowing hot air at that point.
I never said Ezuri was unequivocally bad. I've just said that I've never seen or played against a list that I thought was even average, let alone good. Could it be that I've just been playing all the wrong people and seeing all the wrong lists? Perhaps. But subjectively, that makes Ezuri seem pretty terrible from my perspective. I normally act as if he's a good general because people claim they have crazy elfball lists, but without one in front of me, I have to work off of what I have seen.
We're at an impasse; I don't like playing on Cockatrice/Skype, and you're not willing to let me take a peek at your list. Unless one of these two factors change (and I don't forsee either of them doing so), then we have to admit that we are facing down subjective differences that will not be resolved.
Also, the Freyalise vs. Ezuri matchup is tipped in Ezuri's favor from the sheer nature of the matchup; Ezuri's weakness is (presumably) removal (especially en masse), which my deck can't run a lot of. My deck's weakness is pressuring Freyalise backed by a fast clock, which you can do easily. Even if we were to remove the lens of "is this good and is this bad," the specific matchup is presumably nowhere near in my favor. My deck's meant to prey on the majority of control lists and combo lists that can't properly pressure Freyalise, while your list is (again, presumably) meant to prey on decks like mine (that fall apart to that early pressure backed by the quick clock). I haven't seen the Ezuri list that actually pulls it off, but I'll assumedly take your word for it since you seem so assured.
At risk of sounding pretentious, I'm pretty confident in my deck evaluation skills. I manage the G(r) Tron primer in the Modern section, and I've played the game for a long time. If your list is as good as you say it is, I'm pretty sure I'll have a good shot at recognizing it.
Again, my problem is that I haven't seen this crazy list that everyone's talking about (and all the Ezuri lists in the decklist database are pretty bad). If you're worried about me finding some kind of secret tech, just strip it out and PM the list to me. I'm more than willing to change my mind on matters, and I'm not looking to save face.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
You are a such a contradictionist. It's hilarious. "I never said he's bad, just that every list I've seen or played against is bad."
Anyway, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. BTW, in your write-up you talk about how scared of Freyalise everyone was. That's a clear indication you're in an extremely weak meta. Freyalise is NOT that good. She's a below-average planeswalker, especially compared to any Garruk. I wouldn't even think about countering her. She doesn't do anything unless you're playing her as a 5 mana naturalize.
It was more that she was new, and no one understood what her abilities were. Though you're partially right; of the 3-4 metas I play in (I travel a lot), that one is probably the lowest in power level.
And it's not contradictionist - what's the alternative? That all the Ezuri lists I've played are bad, therefore he is bad? That is the epitome of flawed logic via anecdotal evidence. I've simply stated that every list I've played or seen has been terrible - what conclusion do you feel that I should draw from that? I'm very confused as to what you want me to say here. Is "Every Ezuri list I've had personal experience with is bad, therefore all Ezuri lists are bad" not contradictionist? Because it sure feels flawed to me. What I'm saying is that until I see otherwise, all I can assume is that Ezuri lists are bad because no one actually can provide me with a good one.
If you have something to contribute to the discussion, please contribute. I've listed my evidence, now the impetus is on you to prove me otherwise. I'm not setting up some kind of probatio diabolica here - I'm simply asking for some kind of Ezuri list that can win a 3-4 player pod within the first 5-6 turns of the game consistently assuming no disruption, and can still do well in spite of disruption. If you can't contribute anything along those lines, then I guess you really just enjoy arguing without backing up your arguments.
Also, calling Freyalise a "5-mana Naturalize" means that you clearly don't understand how the card works. If all you do whenever you play her is -2 her, no wonder she's been working terribly for you. Of her three abilities her -2 is the weakest.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW