Personally, I dig delve. I think people are underestimating it. People seem to think it's all about that one-shot cheap spell, and then its done, because your graveyard is empty, but I think it's a way to provide options. It's about using your resources to your best advantage, and only blowing through your graveyard to tip the scales in your advantage. Delve is not about casting every card off your graveyard for 1 mana. You only need one 1-2 mana bomb to tip the scales in your advantage.
First of all, I know all the delve cards are overcosted by 2-3 mana. This isn't just to compensate for the ability to cast them cheaper; it allows you to adapt as you build up your play. Obviously, self-mill is a must. Your graveyard needs to be full. You only need to exile a couple of cards each to keep your delve cards on-curve, and as you keep self-milling, you can slowly cast them for cheaper and cheaper. It's all about advantage. Sure, in the short term, delve cards are worse, but once you get the ball rolling, you can cast better cards than your opponent with less mana.
A couple of Delve cards are easy to add to any deck that runs those colors. Anyone running Blue will have useful mid-late game spells like Dig Through Time or Treasure Cruise.
Self mill is definitely the only way a delve focused deck is going to work, but pure self-mill cards are going to be card-disadvantage most of the time and therefore, most likely bad in most cases. The best thing that can happen for delve decks (besides more and better delve cards) are going to be cards that either self-mill attached to a body (Necromancer's Assistant) or self-mill and cantrip (Thought Scour).
Otherwise, most delve cards will be able to work their way into most other on-color decks as a 1-2 of, as long as there are no other delve cards in a deck.
It's also going to lead to very skill-testing decisions like "do I delve for 3 because I have other delve spells in my deck or do I go for the win and delve to the max?"
It's going to be very challenging and expect a lot of complaining about it
First off I play graveyard decks more than most people ever would and was really excited about Delve (more in other formats than standard)... however I think there are numerous issues with Delve and how they choose to introduce it as a mechanic.
First off they have given very little self motivation to actually want to mill yourself, the cards with Delve on them are not that great or game changing. They are mediocre at best and do not justify building a deck around. They should had dabbled in some reanimation spells or a few other cards that could have interactions while in the graveyard in this set as a secondary reason to want to mill yourself, they did not.
Can you build an entire deck around Delve successfully with the cards they gave... No and they made sure of that. I mean what is the point of casting some of there larger delve spells just to draw more large delve spells you wouldn't be able to cast in a timely manner all while dumping content to your graveyard that you have no other ability to take advantage of.
In fact they're ultra conservative casting costs on every card makes it almost impossible to play these delve cards at all when compared to the other cards given to the other tribes. They really needed to put some more 5 and less cards with delve on them to make them work and some of those cards should also have the ability to fill back up the graveyard as well to keep your spells moving. One interesting creature should had been made with Delve and been able to be played from the graveyard.
They said they were thinking of putting delve in with Innistrad back when that set was released and they didn't because they felt removing Flashback cards with delve cards wasn't a good interaction but I think it creates a good decision point and it also gives players reason to put cards in the graveyard; right now aside from the legendary mythic and the rare soldier there is no reason or advantage I see to put cards in the graveyard from this set.
I think it will play extremely well in the multitude of midrange decks we will see populating Standard. And it won't even take any special effort to make it effective thanks to the fetches. That said, none of the good ones are really format changers, just efficient versions of basic effects if you have a full graveyard. The one exception could be Dig Through Time, which might help to enable a counter-heavy version of Ux control (as opposed to the tap-out versions I am mostly expecting).
The casting costs look like Wizards purposefully didn't want them to be that pushed in Standard, where the removal is more expensive, the cantrips basically don't exist, there are no LD lands, and MTG players everywhere are grateful that Wizards reprinted that 1-mana spell called Thoughtseize.
Unfortunately, no matter how much worse they look in Standard, the Delve cards look much stronger in Modern, Legacy, and Vintage.
They have double the fetchlands. They have 1-mana cantrips. They have cheap removal and disruption (often 1-mana--in Legacy and Vintage, it's often free). They have decent LD lands (Tectonic Edge is decent, but Wasteland is strong).
You don't have to try too hard and you can cast 1-mana Treasure Cruises on Turn 4 there.
And if you build around Delve, you can cast Treasure Cruise for 1 mana on Turn 2.
Treasure Cruise already looks comparable to Ancestral Vision to me--even worse, it looks stronger overall. It's a better topdeck, and Snapcaster Mage can actually flash it back.
I suspect Modern will be infested with blue Delve cards, and Legacy and Vintage will also see many of them.
Snapcaster requires 7 other cards to be exiled. As with the first time you cast Treasure Cruise delving 7. If anything, Treasure Cruise feels just right. I don't think it's as abusable as people think. It's a 1 or 2 of. Nothing more. Dig Through Time is so much better for constructed.
The casting costs look like Wizards purposefully didn't want them to be that pushed in Standard, where the removal is more expensive, the cantrips basically don't exist, there are no LD lands, and MTG players everywhere are grateful that Wizards reprinted that 1-mana spell called Thoughtseize.
Unfortunately, no matter how much worse they look in Standard, the Delve cards look much stronger in Modern, Legacy, and Vintage.
They have double the fetchlands. They have 1-mana cantrips. They have cheap removal and disruption (often 1-mana--in Legacy and Vintage, it's often free). They have decent LD lands (Tectonic Edge is decent, but Wasteland is strong).
You don't have to try too hard and you can cast 1-mana Treasure Cruises on Turn 4 there.
And if you build around Delve, you can cast Treasure Cruise for 1 mana on Turn 2.
Treasure Cruise already looks comparable to Ancestral Vision to me--even worse, it looks stronger overall. It's a better topdeck, and Snapcaster Mage can actually flash it back.
I suspect Modern will be infested with blue Delve cards, and Legacy and Vintage will also see many of them.
Why is that a bad thing? Control in Modern has had the WUx problem just like Standard does (no good draw spell outside of Sphinx's Revelation). Dig Through Time changes that.
The casting costs look like Wizards purposefully didn't want them to be that pushed in Standard, where the removal is more expensive, the cantrips basically don't exist, there are no LD lands, and MTG players everywhere are grateful that Wizards reprinted that 1-mana spell called Thoughtseize.
Unfortunately, no matter how much worse they look in Standard, the Delve cards look much stronger in Modern, Legacy, and Vintage.
They have double the fetchlands. They have 1-mana cantrips. They have cheap removal and disruption (often 1-mana--in Legacy and Vintage, it's often free). They have decent LD lands (Tectonic Edge is decent, but Wasteland is strong).
You don't have to try too hard and you can cast 1-mana Treasure Cruises on Turn 4 there.
And if you build around Delve, you can cast Treasure Cruise for 1 mana on Turn 2.
Treasure Cruise already looks comparable to Ancestral Vision to me--even worse, it looks stronger overall. It's a better topdeck, and Snapcaster Mage can actually flash it back.
I suspect Modern will be infested with blue Delve cards, and Legacy and Vintage will also see many of them.
Why is that a bad thing? Control in Modern has had the WUx problem just like Standard does (no good draw spell outside of Sphinx's Revelation). Dig Through Time changes that.
I'm worried because the terrible blue Delve twins, Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise, can slot into most Modern blue decks. Aggro-tempo (URx Delver), midrange-tempo (UWR, UB Faeries), control (UWR, Cruel Control, Blue Moon), and combo(-control-midrange-tempo) (Scapeshift, URx Twin) can all play them. The Delve twins can be cast for cheap in roughly the same time frame as Turn 1 Ancestral Vision. Ancestral Vision was preemptively banned in Modern, even though, from my testing, I suspect it will help only control because it's a crummy topdeck and it only gets going on Turn 5+. The Delve twins are better than Ancestral Vision overall for reasons I've already mentioned, and I fear they will get banned.
I'm scared that Burn will splash blue for Treasure Cruise.
The casting costs look like Wizards purposefully didn't want them to be that pushed in Standard, where the removal is more expensive, the cantrips basically don't exist, there are no LD lands, and MTG players everywhere are grateful that Wizards reprinted that 1-mana spell called Thoughtseize.
Unfortunately, no matter how much worse they look in Standard, the Delve cards look much stronger in Modern, Legacy, and Vintage.
They have double the fetchlands. They have 1-mana cantrips. They have cheap removal and disruption (often 1-mana--in Legacy and Vintage, it's often free). They have decent LD lands (Tectonic Edge is decent, but Wasteland is strong).
You don't have to try too hard and you can cast 1-mana Treasure Cruises on Turn 4 there.
And if you build around Delve, you can cast Treasure Cruise for 1 mana on Turn 2.
Treasure Cruise already looks comparable to Ancestral Vision to me--even worse, it looks stronger overall. It's a better topdeck, and Snapcaster Mage can actually flash it back.
I suspect Modern will be infested with blue Delve cards, and Legacy and Vintage will also see many of them.
Why is that a bad thing? Control in Modern has had the WUx problem just like Standard does (no good draw spell outside of Sphinx's Revelation). Dig Through Time changes that.
I'm worried because the terrible blue Delve twins, Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise, can slot into most Modern blue decks. Aggro-tempo (URx Delver), midrange-tempo (UWR, UB Faeries), control (UWR, Cruel Control, Blue Moon), and combo(-control-midrange-tempo) (Scapeshift, URx Twin) can all play them. The Delve twins can be cast for cheap in roughly the same time frame as Turn 1 Ancestral Vision. Ancestral Vision was preemptively banned in Modern, even though, from my testing, I suspect it will help only control because it's a crummy topdeck and it only gets going on Turn 5+. The Delve twins are better than Ancestral Vision overall for reasons I've already mentioned, and I fear they will get banned.
I'm scared that Burn will splash blue for Treasure Cruise.
Most of the people in the banlist thread don't think that AV should be banned anyways (unfortunately Shmanka forgot to ask Aaron Forsythe about it so we don't know what he thinks). Let's face it, Tempo and non-WUR Control need the help. I admit that I am a bit worried about Twin though.
I've been testing a Sidisi self-mill / reanimator with Ascendancy, Commune and Nyx Weaver and it is very, very easy to have 15+ card in your graveyard within 3-4 turns. Add to that fetches and early interaction / removal and you can already see that you can have a sustainable delve engine going.
I haven't tested See through Time, Treasure Cruise or Murderous Cut but I can already tell they all belong in some quantity or another. Right now I'm running a very creature-centric deck because of Sidisi but I feel like it's overkill, sometimes you just want a straight up draw / filter spell to find business and these delve spells might help somewhere between a little and a lot.
I think Commune will be replaced (or complemented?) by Taigam's Scheming, I was trying an Enchantment / Creature heavy build but sometimes you need an instant / sorcery, Sultai Charm in particular since it's so flexible.
I'm also intrigued by the Delve creatures, most of them seem pretty run of the mill so it's a matter of whether the reduced cost on its own is enough to warrant their inclusion; Nemesis of Mortals might turn out to be the straight up better choice. Given that this format will be ruled by Downfall, a creature that can protect itself might be more useful.
The sacrifice 2 creatures effect is nothing to be scoffed at either, especially since it's asymmetrical unlike Barter in Blood.
I agree with most of your assessment, but I'd like to point out one thing: Empty the Pits is an instant. I don't see how you can say that Army of the Damned has "extra" safety, when you have to wait an entire turn to get your untapped zombies with it, during which time they can be wrathed. For Empty, you can just cast it on the end of your opponents turn, almost guaranteeing you at least 1 full swing (the only time when that won't happen is if your opponent plays an instant speed boardwipe, and outside of stuff like Quicken, there's... what, 1 of those?)
EDIT: (and yes, I know that by extra safety, you're talking about the flashback. But again, I would argue that instant trumps flashback in comparing the two)
I notice that this set does not contain a counterspell with the delve mechanic, such as logic knot or a functional reprint thereof, so might that card, or a card similar to it, be printed in the next two sets of this block?
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Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are the only two I see truly worthwhile. After testing some BUG variants, the power to quickly recover from opponent's board wipe, using the cards he/she destroyed no less, is very satisfying, not to mention Treasure Cruise requires only a single colored mana, easy splashing. Being able to cast Deadbridge Chant then immediately follow up with either of the aforementioned cards is pure card advantage.
What I wanted to see out of delve:
1. A creature with stats higher than 4/5, even if it was in three colors instead of just costing BB.
2. A draw three spell (happened)
3. Land ramp
4. Reanimation
5. Destroy creature (happened)
I think the mechanic has a lot more room for work in later sets. In terms of playability, only four spells and two creatures are really playable. Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Murderous Cut and Empty the Pits are the spells, though in standard every deck should play Dig Through Time over Treasure Cruise (which is better in older formats). Necropolis Fiend and Hooting Mandrill are playable as creatures, but neither is really great; if the fiend's ability didn't have an X cost it would be very strong.
Every single standard deck that can should run at least one delve spell. If you are blue you should play at least one Dig Through Time even you have zero self-mill, and decks with black should play at least one Murderous Cut. I have 10 sources of mill in my deck I have had zero issues of running 3 of each, plus Empty the Pits. I am still bumping those numbers up to see how high I can go before I end up with unplayable hands, because with self-mill a good number of those cards are going to end up in the graveyard anyway.
The bigger problem with Delve is also the problem with Jeskai: no cheap cantrips. If we had Thought Scour or something similar, or even just a normal cantrip it would greatly help both wedges. Without cheap enablers, the wedges that rely on synergy have an inherent weakness to the decks that rely on the raw individual power of their cards. Even the most synergistic of those (Butcher/Rabblemaster) can easily win with only one piece of the puzzle, whereas the Jeskai need both creatures and spells and the Sultai need both a filled graveyard and a way to exploit it.
Use Mindshrieker on your own 8-10cc delve cards if you don't need them...I'm getting closer to being right when I said that this card will be playable one day...use Noxious Revival and/or Brainstorm and/or Sensei's Divining Top to get them to the top
Use Mindshrieker on your own 8-10cc delve cards if you don't need them...I'm getting closer to being right when I said that this card will be playable one day...use Noxious Revival and/or Brainstorm and/or Sensei's Divining Top to get them to the top
my, that reminds me of YuGiOh's card, Berserker Soul, which let you rape your opponent's face for each creature you flip over.
I actually think the green delve creature is underrated and might make it in legacy. Its a quick 4/4 immunes to decay and counterbalance which is fairly strong.
I actually think the green delve creature is underrated and might make it in legacy. Its a quick 4/4 immunes to decay and counterbalance which is fairly strong.
First of all, I know all the delve cards are overcosted by 2-3 mana. This isn't just to compensate for the ability to cast them cheaper; it allows you to adapt as you build up your play. Obviously, self-mill is a must. Your graveyard needs to be full. You only need to exile a couple of cards each to keep your delve cards on-curve, and as you keep self-milling, you can slowly cast them for cheaper and cheaper. It's all about advantage. Sure, in the short term, delve cards are worse, but once you get the ball rolling, you can cast better cards than your opponent with less mana.
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
Otherwise, most delve cards will be able to work their way into most other on-color decks as a 1-2 of, as long as there are no other delve cards in a deck.
It's going to be very challenging and expect a lot of complaining about it
First off they have given very little self motivation to actually want to mill yourself, the cards with Delve on them are not that great or game changing. They are mediocre at best and do not justify building a deck around. They should had dabbled in some reanimation spells or a few other cards that could have interactions while in the graveyard in this set as a secondary reason to want to mill yourself, they did not.
Can you build an entire deck around Delve successfully with the cards they gave... No and they made sure of that. I mean what is the point of casting some of there larger delve spells just to draw more large delve spells you wouldn't be able to cast in a timely manner all while dumping content to your graveyard that you have no other ability to take advantage of.
In fact they're ultra conservative casting costs on every card makes it almost impossible to play these delve cards at all when compared to the other cards given to the other tribes. They really needed to put some more 5 and less cards with delve on them to make them work and some of those cards should also have the ability to fill back up the graveyard as well to keep your spells moving. One interesting creature should had been made with Delve and been able to be played from the graveyard.
They said they were thinking of putting delve in with Innistrad back when that set was released and they didn't because they felt removing Flashback cards with delve cards wasn't a good interaction but I think it creates a good decision point and it also gives players reason to put cards in the graveyard; right now aside from the legendary mythic and the rare soldier there is no reason or advantage I see to put cards in the graveyard from this set.
Unfortunately, no matter how much worse they look in Standard, the Delve cards look much stronger in Modern, Legacy, and Vintage.
They have double the fetchlands. They have 1-mana cantrips. They have cheap removal and disruption (often 1-mana--in Legacy and Vintage, it's often free). They have decent LD lands (Tectonic Edge is decent, but Wasteland is strong).
You don't have to try too hard and you can cast 1-mana Treasure Cruises on Turn 4 there.
And if you build around Delve, you can cast Treasure Cruise for 1 mana on Turn 2.
Treasure Cruise already looks comparable to Ancestral Vision to me--even worse, it looks stronger overall. It's a better topdeck, and Snapcaster Mage can actually flash it back.
I suspect Modern will be infested with blue Delve cards, and Legacy and Vintage will also see many of them.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Why is that a bad thing? Control in Modern has had the WUx problem just like Standard does (no good draw spell outside of Sphinx's Revelation). Dig Through Time changes that.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm worried because the terrible blue Delve twins, Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise, can slot into most Modern blue decks. Aggro-tempo (URx Delver), midrange-tempo (UWR, UB Faeries), control (UWR, Cruel Control, Blue Moon), and combo(-control-midrange-tempo) (Scapeshift, URx Twin) can all play them. The Delve twins can be cast for cheap in roughly the same time frame as Turn 1 Ancestral Vision. Ancestral Vision was preemptively banned in Modern, even though, from my testing, I suspect it will help only control because it's a crummy topdeck and it only gets going on Turn 5+. The Delve twins are better than Ancestral Vision overall for reasons I've already mentioned, and I fear they will get banned.
I'm scared that Burn will splash blue for Treasure Cruise.
Most of the people in the banlist thread don't think that AV should be banned anyways (unfortunately Shmanka forgot to ask Aaron Forsythe about it so we don't know what he thinks). Let's face it, Tempo and non-WUR Control need the help. I admit that I am a bit worried about Twin though.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I haven't tested See through Time, Treasure Cruise or Murderous Cut but I can already tell they all belong in some quantity or another. Right now I'm running a very creature-centric deck because of Sidisi but I feel like it's overkill, sometimes you just want a straight up draw / filter spell to find business and these delve spells might help somewhere between a little and a lot.
I think Commune will be replaced (or complemented?) by Taigam's Scheming, I was trying an Enchantment / Creature heavy build but sometimes you need an instant / sorcery, Sultai Charm in particular since it's so flexible.
I'm also intrigued by the Delve creatures, most of them seem pretty run of the mill so it's a matter of whether the reduced cost on its own is enough to warrant their inclusion; Nemesis of Mortals might turn out to be the straight up better choice. Given that this format will be ruled by Downfall, a creature that can protect itself might be more useful.
The sacrifice 2 creatures effect is nothing to be scoffed at either, especially since it's asymmetrical unlike Barter in Blood.
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
EDIT: (and yes, I know that by extra safety, you're talking about the flashback. But again, I would argue that instant trumps flashback in comparing the two)
We should find it in every U containing control deck
Now if only it put the other 5 in the yard.
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“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
1. A creature with stats higher than 4/5, even if it was in three colors instead of just costing BB.
2. A draw three spell (happened)
3. Land ramp
4. Reanimation
5. Destroy creature (happened)
I think the mechanic has a lot more room for work in later sets. In terms of playability, only four spells and two creatures are really playable. Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Murderous Cut and Empty the Pits are the spells, though in standard every deck should play Dig Through Time over Treasure Cruise (which is better in older formats). Necropolis Fiend and Hooting Mandrill are playable as creatures, but neither is really great; if the fiend's ability didn't have an X cost it would be very strong.
Every single standard deck that can should run at least one delve spell. If you are blue you should play at least one Dig Through Time even you have zero self-mill, and decks with black should play at least one Murderous Cut. I have 10 sources of mill in my deck I have had zero issues of running 3 of each, plus Empty the Pits. I am still bumping those numbers up to see how high I can go before I end up with unplayable hands, because with self-mill a good number of those cards are going to end up in the graveyard anyway.
The bigger problem with Delve is also the problem with Jeskai: no cheap cantrips. If we had Thought Scour or something similar, or even just a normal cantrip it would greatly help both wedges. Without cheap enablers, the wedges that rely on synergy have an inherent weakness to the decks that rely on the raw individual power of their cards. Even the most synergistic of those (Butcher/Rabblemaster) can easily win with only one piece of the puzzle, whereas the Jeskai need both creatures and spells and the Sultai need both a filled graveyard and a way to exploit it.
my, that reminds me of YuGiOh's card, Berserker Soul, which let you rape your opponent's face for each creature you flip over.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I think it used to have a chance until Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were revealed.