A few "I hope there's something better" cards. But this is what I whipped up to test my Gb against. I'm doing mock-ups of a bunch of lists right now : )
• The deck's biggest problem is not drawing Ensoul. It's easily the best card in the deck now that most of the hard removal that actually kills an Ensouled creature is rotating out.
• Black may well be a better splash than red due to the mana being slightly better.
• Scuttles should definitely go below a 4-of given the loss of Cloudfin Raptor and JF.
• Clever Impersonator is terrible, as using it effectively would require us to raise the land count.
• Icy Blast, while not terrible, is still pretty bad. It could be playable as a 1- or 2-of, though.
• Ghostfire Blade is surprisingly good, essentially acting as a mini-Ensoul that isn't as weak to Hero's Downfall.
Ghostfire Blade helps a lot, but there still aren't enough good artifacts in Standard.
@RefStone, your list just doesnt seem to do very much if you dont draw Ensoul
On the other hand, Remba's list is playing Bronze Sable, which is an AWFUL card that isn't even good in Limited.
Ugin's Nexus is really good with Ensoul and insane with Shrapnel Blast, but doesn't do anything else, which is not good for a potential 5-drop. Probably worth testing, but not reliable enough to fix the deck's problems.
Don't forget Bident of Thassa. Can be cast early with Chief Engineer and is good for gas provided there are enough creatures.
I think there are powerful build-arounds like the Engineer and Ensoul but there just needs to be a couple more playable creatures for it to be a capable archetype. Bronze Sable isn't exactly an ideal Constructed card.
Ghostfire Blade helps a lot, but there still aren't enough good artifacts in Standard.
@RefStone, your list just doesnt seem to do very much if you dont draw Ensoul
On the other hand, Remba's list is playing Bronze Sable, which is an AWFUL card that isn't even good in Limited.
Ugin's Nexus is really good with Ensoul and insane with Shrapnel Blast, but doesn't do anything else, which is not good for a potential 5-drop. Probably worth testing, but not reliable enough to fix the deck's problems.
You could consider making the Mono-Blue list Blue/White (and possibly going into Jeskai colours for the UR) to gain access to Heliod's Pilgrim, which gives you an excellent way to tutor for the Aura. If you go Jeskai, you get the bonus of being able to play Chain to the Rocks as an additional removal spell. That pushes the Red into splash territory, but the only card you need to be playing is Shrapnel Blast, with Lighting Strike likely being a bonus.
Heliod's Pilgrim is too slow, and doesn't justify going into a second color. Chained to the Rocks is also unplayable in this deck, as in order to play fetchlands that fetch Mountains you would need to play four colors. I advocated UW pre-rotation, but it was slow and clunky.
This is a rough draft based entirely on theorycrafting, and will almost certainly change soon.
This thread will soon be made into our official primer, hopefully for the next year, and will include a link to the pre-rotation thread.
Some thoughts:
1. Icy Blast is bad. This deck doesn't have a low enough curve to take advantage of the tempo from a card like icy blast and it's not even neccesary if the opponent is playing control or can't block.
2. Doom engine is good, but playing 4 seems risky. I'd drop to 2, even with convoke.
3. Need 1 more set of creatures and maybe drop to 2 ghostfire blade. I don't think i'd want to draw more than 1 a game.
4. Definitely want a shrapnel blast or 2. It provides the reach this deck needs. Definitely as a 2 of, maybe more.
5. Bident of Thassa is an artifact. I like it as a 1-2 of.
6. Clever Impersonator is awful.
7. Need a few more cards, hopefully from the new set to improve the curve a little.
Overall though, this deck idea is nice. Looking forward to it.
The deck does need another 1-drop artifact to wear Ensoul, but I think Hot Soup is better, mostly because it's good with an Ensouled Citadel. I mean, I'd prefer a 1-drop artifact creature, but beggars can't be choosers.
Ghostfire Blade helps a lot, but there still aren't enough good artifacts in Standard.
@RefStone, your list just doesnt seem to do very much if you dont draw Ensoul
On the other hand, Remba's list is playing Bronze Sable, which is an AWFUL card that isn't even good in Limited.
Ugin's Nexus is really good with Ensoul and insane with Shrapnel Blast, but doesn't do anything else, which is not good for a potential 5-drop. Probably worth testing, but not reliable enough to fix the deck's problems.
Bronze Sable was not solid, it was still a TERRIBLE card, it just fit into the deck because you needed small artifact creatures. Ugin's Nexus is not good, but it does combo well with Shrapnel Blast and Ensoul (which is half the point of the deck anyways). However, adding yet another card that does nothing on its own is probably not the way to go.
The main problem with this deck is that it simply doesn't have enough decent cards to fill out the list. Using artifact mana fixers and the new lands to make a 3 color list might help that problem. What the deck really needs is just a few more good artifacts.
Bronze Sable is a terrible card. No one was disputing that. It was good in this deck pre-KTK.
I think the best solution at this point is to run a Grixis list with Thoughtseize and Shrapnel Blast. I'm actually unsure if CE makes the cut, without the blue one-drops it isn't as good.
I don't think you can afford to run thoughtseize in this deck. The affinity deck doesn't really care that much what the opponent is doing and using a whole card to remove a spell just seems like it would slow the deck down too much.
I think at this point, the best bet is hoping for a 1 mana color creature to be spoiled soon.
The logic behind Thoughtseize is that it makes it incredibly hard for aggro to race us and for control to deal with our threats.
Honestly, the best thing for us would be a 1/1 artifact creature with flying for 1, but that isn't too likely. Something along the likes of Cloudfin Raptor would be great.
The new counterspell is an auto include as a four off. I still believe UWR is our best bet, it's getting he most tempo toys and doesn't require massive color investment like black for thoughtseize. Chained to the rock, while conditional, is good all game making it a strong choice for splashing for. I'm excited about testing ghost blade as well, and at least two offing the mantis rider. My question though is is jeskai charm worth it? It gives us mainboard life gain vs burn, with fetches in standard shuffling a threat back into their deck is easy, four damage burn is relevant, essentially I love it as a top deck. Thoughts? Mindswipe should be considered as a one or two off as well, but I'm MUCH less sold on it.
I still think Chained to the Rocks is terrible because of the strict requirements. However, because of Jeskai Charm, UWR could be a decent option. The card is great. Mindswipe is too expensive.
I'm of the agreement that UWR is the way to go with this deck,mantis rider and jeskai charm provide another solid threat and good utility that helps round out what the deck needs. Also instead of chained to the rocks, we can run banishing light instead.
Heliod's Pilgrim is too slow, and doesn't justify going into a second color. Chained to the Rocks is also unplayable in this deck, as in order to play fetchlands that fetch Mountains you would need to play four colors. I advocated UW pre-rotation, but it was slow and clunky.
Why not go into white for spear of Heliod and Godsend? You could even splash for elspeth.
As said before, Ensoul Artifact really is the soul of the deck.
My plans for rotation are changing Izzet Charm for Magma Jet and Steam Vents is probably becoming basic lands (at least until I figure out exactly how to work with fetches).
I have been advised to move the Revokers to the sideboard and replace then with Lightning Strike, and I'm not sure if more lands are not needed.
I'm against splashing a third color, because if I did it I would need to play more lands, which would eat up most of the space available for cards of the new color anyway.
As said before, Ensoul Artifact really is the soul of the deck.
My plans for rotation are changing Izzet Charm for Magma Jet and Steam Vents is probably becoming basic lands (at least until I figure out exactly how to work with fetches).
I have been advised to move the Negators to the sideboard and replace then with Lightning Strike, and I'm not sure if more lands are not needed.
I'm against splashing a third color, because if I did it I would need to play more lands, which would eat up most of the space available for cards of the new color anyway.
I assume by Phyrexian Negator you mean Phyrexian Revoker. Personally I like the revokers in the main. They beat face and almost everyone has some kind of activated ability you want to stop. You can guess based upon their first land frequently enough, at least in the current meta. (One night I played 3 blue white control decks in a row, so yea I called Jace, Architect of Thought on a turn 2 Phyrexian Revoker. Guess what, I was not wrong.) 18 land, ouch. That seems really inconsistent. How often do you muligan?
I like Stoke the flames, though you've only got Generator Servant in your deck that can convoke the red cost. Springleaf Drum I suppose if you're strapped for land, which with 18 land you probably will be.
I'm still debating on which way to run this deck. I currently run blue black instead. Yea, I lose Shrapnel Blast and Generator Servant, but the black options or so good. But the set is making reconsider red. It can be very explosive. I'll make up my mind once more of the set is spoiled. I'm hoping for some good morphs for the deck. Ghostfire blade is going in already. It makes my ornathopters be threats and my cheif engineers can actually swing later in the game with it. Guess we'll see.
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Based on what we know is rotating in and out, I think Mono-U will compete with UR for dominance. Here's the maindeck of my Mono-U list:
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
4 Polluted Delta
Creatures:
4 Bronze Sable
4 Chief Engineer
3 Clever Impersonator
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Scuttling Doom Engine
4 Ensoul Artifact
3 Ghostfire Blade
4 Icy Blast
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Void Snare
This is a rough draft based entirely on theorycrafting, and will almost certainly change soon.
This thread will soon be made into our official primer, hopefully for the next year, and will include a link to the pre-rotation thread.
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Shivan Reef
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Island
5 Mountain
3 Flooded Strand
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Clever Impersonator
Other Permanents (7)
4 Ghostfire Blade
2 Springleaf Drum
1 Dictate of the Twin Gods
4 Ensoul Artifact
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Divination
3 Lightning Strike
1 Magma Jet
2 Dissolve
1 Curse of the Swine
1 Turn to Frog
• The deck's biggest problem is not drawing Ensoul. It's easily the best card in the deck now that most of the hard removal that actually kills an Ensouled creature is rotating out.
• Black may well be a better splash than red due to the mana being slightly better.
• Scuttles should definitely go below a 4-of given the loss of Cloudfin Raptor and JF.
• Clever Impersonator is terrible, as using it effectively would require us to raise the land count.
• Icy Blast, while not terrible, is still pretty bad. It could be playable as a 1- or 2-of, though.
• Ghostfire Blade is surprisingly good, essentially acting as a mini-Ensoul that isn't as weak to Hero's Downfall.
@RefStone, your list just doesnt seem to do very much if you dont draw Ensoul
On the other hand, Remba's list is playing Bronze Sable, which is an AWFUL card that isn't even good in Limited.
Ugin's Nexus is really good with Ensoul and insane with Shrapnel Blast, but doesn't do anything else, which is not good for a potential 5-drop. Probably worth testing, but not reliable enough to fix the deck's problems.
I think there are powerful build-arounds like the Engineer and Ensoul but there just needs to be a couple more playable creatures for it to be a capable archetype. Bronze Sable isn't exactly an ideal Constructed card.
Bronze Sable was solid in pre-rotation lists with Cloudfin Raptor and Judge's Familiar. However, now that those are rotating out, it becomes much worse. And yes, Ugin's Nexus is terrible.
Some thoughts:
1. Icy Blast is bad. This deck doesn't have a low enough curve to take advantage of the tempo from a card like icy blast and it's not even neccesary if the opponent is playing control or can't block.
2. Doom engine is good, but playing 4 seems risky. I'd drop to 2, even with convoke.
3. Need 1 more set of creatures and maybe drop to 2 ghostfire blade. I don't think i'd want to draw more than 1 a game.
4. Definitely want a shrapnel blast or 2. It provides the reach this deck needs. Definitely as a 2 of, maybe more.
5. Bident of Thassa is an artifact. I like it as a 1-2 of.
6. Clever Impersonator is awful.
7. Need a few more cards, hopefully from the new set to improve the curve a little.
Overall though, this deck idea is nice. Looking forward to it.
Bronze Sable was not solid, it was still a TERRIBLE card, it just fit into the deck because you needed small artifact creatures. Ugin's Nexus is not good, but it does combo well with Shrapnel Blast and Ensoul (which is half the point of the deck anyways). However, adding yet another card that does nothing on its own is probably not the way to go.
The main problem with this deck is that it simply doesn't have enough decent cards to fill out the list. Using artifact mana fixers and the new lands to make a 3 color list might help that problem. What the deck really needs is just a few more good artifacts.
I think the best solution at this point is to run a Grixis list with Thoughtseize and Shrapnel Blast. I'm actually unsure if CE makes the cut, without the blue one-drops it isn't as good.
I think at this point, the best bet is hoping for a 1 mana color creature to be spoiled soon.
Honestly, the best thing for us would be a 1/1 artifact creature with flying for 1, but that isn't too likely. Something along the likes of Cloudfin Raptor would be great.
I also agree that mindswipe is terrible.
I'm still of the opinion that Grixis is the best option, but I think UWR is fine.
Why not go into white for spear of Heliod and Godsend? You could even splash for elspeth.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
4 Ornithopter
4 Chief Engineer
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Generator Servant
4 Scuttling Doom Engine
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Ensoul Artifact
4 Izzet Charm
4 Stoke the Flames
2 Bident of Thassa
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Steam Vents
4 Shivan Reef
4 Temple of Epiphany
2 Island
As said before, Ensoul Artifact really is the soul of the deck.
My plans for rotation are changing Izzet Charm for Magma Jet and Steam Vents is probably becoming basic lands (at least until I figure out exactly how to work with fetches).
I have been advised to move the Revokers to the sideboard and replace then with Lightning Strike, and I'm not sure if more lands are not needed.
I'm against splashing a third color, because if I did it I would need to play more lands, which would eat up most of the space available for cards of the new color anyway.
EDIT: correcting mistaken card names
Standard
BWC Eldrazi
UBR Grixis Tutelage
Modern
UR Storm
Legacy
Landless Dredge
Pauper
U Delver
Commander
UR Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
I assume by Phyrexian Negator you mean Phyrexian Revoker. Personally I like the revokers in the main. They beat face and almost everyone has some kind of activated ability you want to stop. You can guess based upon their first land frequently enough, at least in the current meta. (One night I played 3 blue white control decks in a row, so yea I called Jace, Architect of Thought on a turn 2 Phyrexian Revoker. Guess what, I was not wrong.) 18 land, ouch. That seems really inconsistent. How often do you muligan?
I like Stoke the flames, though you've only got Generator Servant in your deck that can convoke the red cost. Springleaf Drum I suppose if you're strapped for land, which with 18 land you probably will be.
I'm still debating on which way to run this deck. I currently run blue black instead. Yea, I lose Shrapnel Blast and Generator Servant, but the black options or so good. But the set is making reconsider red. It can be very explosive. I'll make up my mind once more of the set is spoiled. I'm hoping for some good morphs for the deck. Ghostfire blade is going in already. It makes my ornathopters be threats and my cheif engineers can actually swing later in the game with it. Guess we'll see.