I still think the power level of Theros and Khans feel the same. The only interesting thing added to Standard was the combo part. As predicted by many, after Sphinx's Revelation rotated, it has become a midrange slugfest. Ivan Floch's performance (a very good player) was certainly an outlier.
I still think many are under the illusion of fetches (if there're fetches then this block must be good.) Fetches, and the theme of wedge are definitely great shock absorbers/deflectors.
It also doesn't make financial sense that many of the rares/mythics are exorbitantly priced. What I'm saying is that whacking a box (on average) gives you more value than what you paid for. Which isn't supposed to be normal.
The financial support from hoarders is pretty immense I'll say.
As predicted by many, after Sphinx's Revelation rotated, it has become a midrange slugfest.
Come on, now... Two midrange decks in the top 8 is not a "midrange slugfest." If anything, this Pro Tour showed that aggro, midrange, control and even combo are all viable options.
I love this set. The multicolor cards look amazing to me as a casual/EDH player. I like to play garbage decks, like mill, dredge, and rainbow. Don't worry about what cards are playable, look at what cards look fun and have fun. It still is a game.
This set has proven to be even worse than Homelands. JUST KIDDING! If anything, this set has proven that looking at a set in a vacuum doesn't tell you anything about it. Many cards in this set were looked down on before it was standard and then BAM everybody loves them. I couldn't be more pleased with a set that in standard it is not overpowered, but some of the cards that aren't quite a fit in standard are really powerful in older formats that can support them.
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All your base are belong to us!
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
I didn't contribute previously, but my initial impressions from the spoilers were it would be fun mechanically, but thematically I had the hunch the set would leave me cold.
That's exactly how it has played out for me. I am one of those who favor theme over mechanics, FWIW.
Last time, what could $20 get us? In Lorwyn we could get cryptic and mutavault, only bitterblossom and Garruk were higher in that block.
Now, what does $20 get us? Hero's Downfall at its peak was close to that amount, which was a ludicrous thing. And that is just spot removal. Lorwyn's most expensive removal spell was Profane Command, but it only commanded a $10 price. And the relative power, I believe it isn't close; Profane is the better card overall for what it can do.
What I'm saying is that if we argue on relative terms, we aren't really getting the bang for our buck. Fetchlands aside of course.
Uh… Do you mind checking out the difference in player base size, rarities and the fact that HDF has mostly been a $5 to $10 card with the exception of a month or so of spiking that topped out at roughly $15.
See, the hilarious thing to me is that when Stormbreath Dragon was spoiled, bloody well everybody was complaining that it was a terrible mythic because it wasn't Thundermaw Hellkite.
Actually, I was saying that it is better than Hellkite and would replace him in Modern. So not everyone was saying that he was worse than Hellkite.
Not to derail the thread but stormbreath dragon sucks in any format with actually powerful cards. He's good in standard because the other cards in standard basically suck. I'm fairly certain that it has seen almost zero play in modern/legacy.
At least hellkite sees fringe play here and there but he's pretty bad too. And i'm not even hating on the poor guy. I wish he was actually good in modern because its a pretty cool card.
Stormbreath sees some play in Big Zoo lists. Dodging something like Path to Exile is not at all irrelevant, and it comes with other usefulness as well that Hellkite doesn't provide.
This set wasn't as underwhelming as Theros was but it's no heart racer like Innistrad or Scars. The mechanics are just too simple. Scars had Infect, Proliferate, Metal Craft and Imprint. Ins had transform, morbid, flashback and made curses. Khans basically has Outlast (worse version of Chronomaton), Prowess (less broken version of Blistercoil Weird), Ferocious (Easier to fulfill version of Naya's 5 or greater clause) and Delve (which should have been golgari's mechanic in RtR). I'm not playing standard till the set return to the old power level and stop over simplifying cards. The consumers aren't as simple minded as wizards thinks they are.
Have you played with the set at all? The individual mechanics might be simple on their own, but they all interact well with the big one that you left out: morph. There's plenty of hidden information, bluffing, and complex decision making in Khans. I see no evidence of Wizards thinking their players are simple minded. In fact, it seems the opposite, that they feel the players can develop complex strategies with well-balanced parts.
What does power level have to do with playing standard? It only matters relative to the other sets that are in standard with it, and right now that isn't very high. The set seems like a success in terms of power level since it doesn't overshadow Theros, but a good number of cards still scale well in other formats where power level does matter.
And no, delve shouldn't have gone to Golgari. They tested it with Golgari, and in Innistrad. They put it here because it fit well, and it is awesome.
I still think the power level of Theros and Khans feel the same. The only interesting thing added to Standard was the combo part. As predicted by many, after Sphinx's Revelation rotated, it has become a midrange slugfest. Ivan Floch's performance (a very good player) was certainly an outlier.
I still think many are under the illusion of fetches (if there're fetches then this block must be good.) Fetches, and the theme of wedge are definitely great shock absorbers/deflectors.
It also doesn't make financial sense that many of the rares/mythics are exorbitantly priced. What I'm saying is that whacking a box (on average) gives you more value than what you paid for. Which isn't supposed to be normal.
The financial support from hoarders is pretty immense I'll say.
Lee Shi Tian wasn't playing Midrange. Neither was Owen Turtenwald (who should have gotten into the top 8 ). And you are also ignoring that there were decks like WR Heroic in the top 16 and that most of the Jeskai lists were closer to aggro than Midrange.
This set wasn't as underwhelming as Theros was but it's no heart racer like Innistrad or Scars. The mechanics are just too simple. Scars had Infect, Proliferate, Metal Craft and Imprint. Ins had transform, morbid, flashback and made curses. Khans basically has Outlast (worse version of Chronomaton), Prowess (less broken version of Blistercoil Weird), Ferocious (Easier to fulfill version of Naya's 5 or greater clause) and Delve (which should have been golgari's mechanic in RtR). I'm not playing standard till the set return to the old power level and stop over simplifying cards. The consumers aren't as simple minded as wizards thinks they are.
It might not be an Innistrad or Scars, but it is solidly ahead of Return to Ravnica. And I wouldn't say that cards like Dig Through Time and Jeskai Ascendancy are oversimplified.
This set wasn't as underwhelming as Theros was but it's no heart racer like Innistrad or Scars. The mechanics are just too simple. Scars had Infect, Proliferate, Metal Craft and Imprint. Ins had transform, morbid, flashback and made curses. Khans basically has Outlast (worse version of Chronomaton), Prowess (less broken version of Blistercoil Weird), Ferocious (Easier to fulfill version of Naya's 5 or greater clause) and Delve (which should have been golgari's mechanic in RtR). I'm not playing standard till the set return to the old power level and stop over simplifying cards. The consumers aren't as simple minded as wizards thinks they are.
yeah we really need completly pushed and overpowered cards like wurmcoil engine or titans in standard, we really do! NOT. no standard player in this world wants to have a standard defined by 2-5 mythics who win games all by their own. new sets get printed for standard, and not to push as many legacy staples in it as possible.
i really think that wizards did great with khans. they didnt print completly pushed and broken cards, and still managed to give a few cards to eternal formats.
It might not be an Innistrad or Scars, but it is solidly ahead of Return to Ravnica.
You mean as a set? Wow, I didn't think you'll rate it that highly. I thought RtR was a very good set (Innistrad being excellent of course).
It was. Khans is better though. I say this for a few reasons.
1. Standard has combo in addition to midrange, aggro, and control.
2. EDH has 5 new tricolor generals.
3. Modern got a ton of cards that it was looking for.
I want sets that take at most 30 minutes for a game in limited. Khans goes to time way too often.
I understand that having fast games is important to you, but I do want to say that it is far from a universal sentiment. Many people, myself included, like the slower format, which leads to (and perhaps is caused by) having many interesting decisions to make over the course of a game. The mechanics may be simple to understand, but they lead to complex board states with many options to choose from. Morph especially, in limited.
Disclaimer: we haven't seen half the set yet, but this will be based on the many rares and mythics already spoiled for Khans of Tarkir.
In my opinion, Theros block is one of the worst sets released recently. It came right after Return to Ravnica block, which had its ups (RTR) and downs (DM). But overall RTR gave us many tools and even cards that see play in other formats like Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. Theros wasn't really interesting for two reasons 1) it wasn't really enchantment matters even with the third set and 2) it wasn't fun to play IMO. Building "tanks" of enchantment creatures just felt ackward and you could see WOTC's shift for the casual players in the set. This is becoming even more true with Khans, thanks to the shift from the 4-mana wrath to a 5-mana one. But that's another debate.
My problem so far with Khans is how no card seem to have any "wow" factor EXCEPT for fetches. Wingmate Roc is not the kind of Mythic that gets a reaction from me, except a negative one. The art is boring. The effect is boring. I understand it is powerful in Limited and *might* see play elsewhere, but where is the awesome feeling of opening a Mythic? A couple years ago, you had stuff like Wurmcoil Engine, which was very cool because its power level made no doubt. And it was given as a pre-release freebie, too. Now I'm watching Khans cards and feel they're all underpowered or just aim to be flavorful. Everything is extremely safe as far as development goes, nothing seems to push the envelope. I'm all for balance, but the set seems way too safe. It feels like Innistrad was 10 years ago.
Maybe I'm spoiled, but I feel Khans is another set that cares too much about flavor over great cards. Of course it's early, but I hope we'll start seeing stuff that will make me say "wow" soon.
I still think many are under the illusion of fetches (if there're fetches then this block must be good.) Fetches, and the theme of wedge are definitely great shock absorbers/deflectors.
It also doesn't make financial sense that many of the rares/mythics are exorbitantly priced. What I'm saying is that whacking a box (on average) gives you more value than what you paid for. Which isn't supposed to be normal.
The financial support from hoarders is pretty immense I'll say.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Given the usual combination of ignorance and reality denial displayed by people, I think that nothing changes.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
That's exactly how it has played out for me. I am one of those who favor theme over mechanics, FWIW.
Uh… Do you mind checking out the difference in player base size, rarities and the fact that HDF has mostly been a $5 to $10 card with the exception of a month or so of spiking that topped out at roughly $15.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
Stormbreath sees some play in Big Zoo lists. Dodging something like Path to Exile is not at all irrelevant, and it comes with other usefulness as well that Hellkite doesn't provide.
Have you played with the set at all? The individual mechanics might be simple on their own, but they all interact well with the big one that you left out: morph. There's plenty of hidden information, bluffing, and complex decision making in Khans. I see no evidence of Wizards thinking their players are simple minded. In fact, it seems the opposite, that they feel the players can develop complex strategies with well-balanced parts.
What does power level have to do with playing standard? It only matters relative to the other sets that are in standard with it, and right now that isn't very high. The set seems like a success in terms of power level since it doesn't overshadow Theros, but a good number of cards still scale well in other formats where power level does matter.
And no, delve shouldn't have gone to Golgari. They tested it with Golgari, and in Innistrad. They put it here because it fit well, and it is awesome.
Lee Shi Tian wasn't playing Midrange. Neither was Owen Turtenwald (who should have gotten into the top 8 ). And you are also ignoring that there were decks like WR Heroic in the top 16 and that most of the Jeskai lists were closer to aggro than Midrange.
It might not be an Innistrad or Scars, but it is solidly ahead of Return to Ravnica. And I wouldn't say that cards like Dig Through Time and Jeskai Ascendancy are oversimplified.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You mean as a set? Wow, I didn't think you'll rate it that highly. I thought RtR was a very good set (Innistrad being excellent of course).
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
yeah we really need completly pushed and overpowered cards like wurmcoil engine or titans in standard, we really do! NOT. no standard player in this world wants to have a standard defined by 2-5 mythics who win games all by their own. new sets get printed for standard, and not to push as many legacy staples in it as possible.
i really think that wizards did great with khans. they didnt print completly pushed and broken cards, and still managed to give a few cards to eternal formats.
i like the current standard environment.
It was. Khans is better though. I say this for a few reasons.
1. Standard has combo in addition to midrange, aggro, and control.
2. EDH has 5 new tricolor generals.
3. Modern got a ton of cards that it was looking for.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I understand that having fast games is important to you, but I do want to say that it is far from a universal sentiment. Many people, myself included, like the slower format, which leads to (and perhaps is caused by) having many interesting decisions to make over the course of a game. The mechanics may be simple to understand, but they lead to complex board states with many options to choose from. Morph especially, in limited.
Who needs mythic rares when you have these awesome commons and uncommons such as treasure cruise, monastery swiftspear, and murderous cut?
not to mention the rares seeing eternal play right off the bat such as dig through time