Tap Out Control has been an archetype for a long time (it was immensely popular in Kamigawa), so 'having to tap out' is not actually a strike against it. You're simply confusing things because you'r assuming a White/Green/Black control deck would want to stay untapped to cast counterspells it doesn't have.
Tapout control decks don't try to reach an unlosable gamestate in the late game, they try to survive with more powerful sorcery speed spells until their threats come online. This makes makes Outlast a rather silly mechanic for a klan whose theme is lasting forever. And what sort of powerful sorcery speed spells can we have when we are working with no 4 CMC wrath, don't have great 2/3 CMC removal, and don't have blue's card advantage?
Even if we see a lot of sorcery speed spells printed, the control decks will play those spells instead of spending their resources to tap their own creatures. These creatures simply should not be played in any control build. They can't block and Outlast, they don't create card advantage, and they make the control deck more susceptible to removal. If you are tapping out on a control deck, you need to be doing something worth the cost. Outlast almost certainly isn't.
The only exceptions I can think of would be creatures that start as 0/Xs with Outlast and "at the end of your turn, gain life equal to ~'s power."
I kind of can't believe the negative comments here and total dismissal by the backseat designers of the spec forum. If an opponent doesn't have evasion that 1/1 token is plenty to allow the base creature to get huge and take over the game. This is the colors of vindicate and abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse and putrefy, decks in Abzan will be packing the best removal magic has to offer to get to the point for that to be possible.
Its all ridiculous to dismiss this mechanic given that we have one RARE implementation of it. This is essentially a limited pack rat again at worst, don't embarrass yourselves.
I kind of can't believe the negative comments here and total dismissal by the backseat designers of the spec forum. If an opponent doesn't have evasion that 1/1 token is plenty to allow the base creature to get huge and take over the game. This is the colors of vindicate and abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse and putrefy, decks in Abzan will be packing the best removal magic has to offer to get to the point for that to be possible.
Its all ridiculous to dismiss this mechanic given that we have one RARE implementation of it. This is essentially a limited pack rat again at worst, don't embarrass yourselves.
I didn't know that Vidicate, Abrubt Decay, Putrefy, and Maelstrom Pulse were in Standard.
Is outlast the most exciting mechanic? No. It is definitely not. But I do think it'll be a much better one that people here are thinking. I think Herald of Anafenza is actually a card that could be fringe playable. It's very reminiscent of Pack Rat. Does it make devotion? No. And it's not as good as Pack Rat, at least, I don't think it is, but I do think it is good enough to see slight play.
The only thing that really throws me about this card are the tokens. Why are they Warriors? Warriors are usually G/R. White gets soldiers or knights.
Is outlast the most exciting mechanic? No. It is definitely not. But I do think it'll be a much better one that people here are thinking. I think Herald of Anafenza is actually a card that could be fringe playable. It's very reminiscent of Pack Rat. Does it make devotion? No. And it's not as good as Pack Rat, at least, I don't think it is, but I do think it is good enough to see slight play.
The only thing that really throws me about this card are the tokens. Why are they Warriors? Warriors are usually G/R. White gets soldiers or knights.
What is the BEST case scenario for the Herald? T1, Herald. T2, removal. T3, Outlast. Now on T4 you have a 2/3 and a 1/1 and have removed a 1 or 2 drop. Your opponent has either emptied their hand (aggro), has landed a Courser/Polukranos, or used removal on your Herald after you tapped it. And once the 2/3 is removed, the tokens are just tokens.
Pack Rat has redundancy, exponential growth, synergy with mutavault and thoughtseize, and doesn't tap itself to put a token on the battlefield. Without that long list of positives it wouldn't be played. EDIT: It also doesn't require a tap. That is huge. That makes Outlast at least a 3 turn investment without Haste.
Seems like a pretty weak ability, but I'm sure they will print some pushed cards with it. It's really all about the trigger, because dumping mana and tapping at sorcery speed for a +1/+1 counter SUCKS, but with the right trigger to go along with it, it could see some playable cards. I don't like the mechanic at all though. Either allowing instant speed, or instead of tapping, having it not require a tap and instead say "Outlast only once each turn." would have been far superior. Not being able to Outlast until the second turn the creature is out is pretty bad. How many turns are we supposed to sit around with this creature dumping resources into it before it becomes worthwhile? Probably too long...hem.
Yeah, really wish it wasn't sorcery-speed. They better push it to make up for it.
I actually like the herald, he gives you incremental advantage, which is what I expect from the clan of endurance.
The sorcery speed makes the ostensibly spoiled Ivorytusk Fortress seem even more mediocre. Rational is fairly clear, though: most of the clan abilities seem to not operate outside of your turn in normal circumstances. Having one that breaks this symmetry for every card would have been imbalanced.
I have been wondering how the khan will fit into this mechanic. Zurgo enables raid because he is all about attacking. Narset enables prowess because she lets you cast up to four noncreatures from the top. What enables this?
Untapping creatures: not likely because the elephant house does that
Tapped creatures can block: still pretty similar to untapping
Doubling counters: seems a bit vanilla since it has already been used on corpsejack menace
Doubling effects of abilities: too powerful, we cannot really afford to have a static illusionist's bracers
Abilities cost less to activate
Use tap abilities as if with haste
Use abilities as instants
What else fits here? I do not think any of these seem very likely either by environment or by what BWG should be doing.
Of course it could be something that benefits off of this type of activation rather than being an enabler, but we do not yet have evidence for that.
I am expecting there to be quite a bit of "creatures with a +1/+1 counter on them get ..." in this clan so it could just be another version of that.
I would think the Khan has something to do with counter-manipulation - ala Ghave, Guru of Spores.
TBH it's a bit sad as Ghave seems like the perfect Khan for the clan but I sincerely hope they wont just reprint him and I doubt it to the point that it's not going to happen - not to mention it's a Fungus where all the Khans seems to be humans.
Aniok bond kin seems rather amazing to me. It will be terrifying in limited, at least
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
To people saying this is not a control ability... It's an ability that generates tangible board state changes while consuming no cards in hand, thus retaining card advantage. Couple this with the life gaining and control elements this wedge of colors has access to makes this a decent mechanic that is overall extremely skill testing compared to the others, and encourages great limited decisions that I look forward to making. If this was an instant speed ability, it would be a no brainer.
I have been wondering how the khan will fit into this mechanic. Zurgo enables raid because he is all about attacking. Narset enables prowess because she lets you cast up to four noncreatures from the top. What enables this?
Untapping creatures: not likely because the elephant house does that
Tapped creatures can block: still pretty similar to untapping
Doubling counters: seems a bit vanilla since it has already been used on corpsejack menace
Doubling effects of abilities: too powerful, we cannot really afford to have a static illusionist's bracers
Abilities cost less to activate
Use tap abilities as if with haste
Use abilities as instants
What else fits here? I do not think any of these seem very likely either by environment or by what BWG should be doing.
Of course it could be something that benefits off of this type of activation rather than being an enabler, but we do not yet have evidence for that.
I am expecting there to be quite a bit of "creatures with a +1/+1 counter on them get ..." in this clan so it could just be another version of that.
I would think the Khan has something to do with counter-manipulation - ala Ghave, Guru of Spores.
TBH it's a bit sad as Ghave seems like the perfect Khan for the clan but I sincerely hope they wont just reprint him and I doubt it to the point that it's not going to happen - not to mention it's a Fungus where all the Khans seems to be humans.
Yeh Ghave does not fit at all: Makes saprolings, kills your own creatures, is a fungus shaman.
I like Ghave but it probably has no business in the whole block.
Since I play commander, this mechanic is pretty worthless. The single +1/+1 is negligible for the cost. If it said put a counter on target creature, it would probably be interesting because it would allow options and would not take so many turns to become relevant.
Mechanic blows but the extra abilities have potential.
The mechanic as a whole has a lot of hoops to jump through (cost, having to tap, sorcery speed). Makes it feel odd against the very simple and "build around" nature of Raid, Prowess and all of the others.
I get that this mechanic is trying to save you cards - simply have a creature that makes its self bigger instead of having other cards in your deck that make it bigger - but the price comes at too high of a cost (multiple costs, even).
I would think the Khan has something to do with counter-manipulation - ala Ghave, Guru of Spores.
TBH it's a bit sad as Ghave seems like the perfect Khan for the clan...
Yeh Ghave does not fit at all: Makes saprolings, kills your own creatures, is a fungus shaman.
I like Ghave but it probably has no business in the whole block.
What I meant was mechanic-wise and power-wise. Not from a view point of flavor. Obvious Ghave doesn't fit the clan's mentality, but his abilities would be very good with Outlast.
This is probably my favorite mechanical design in the set and I think, from the design aspect, it's being very underrated. This is most likely due to the fact that we simply haven't seen how it's going to fit in with the set and the formats as a whole.
Disclaimer: when discussing set mechanics, I always look to Limited first. Constructed is a hodge-podge of select, individually powerful cards, less defined by their mechanics as the cards themselves. Thus, this review is for limited, where the mechanics are designed to interact in an environment that can support them and in which they will have good interactions with other mechanics in the set.
Outlast allows you to trade a turn of combat and some mana for permanent gains. It can be conceptualized very often like black's "pain draw" mechanic because you risk damage by investing - and realistically you should probably choose to take some early damage while having your Outlasters hunker down. That's what I love so much about this mechanic, it's subtle and it is very decision-heavy. By making it tap and sorcery, it's not just an optimal mana sink, it's always a tradeoff. Outlast is like Grindclock, where the optimal amount of activations is always a bit fiddly and conditional, and overly investing in specific permanents can open you up to being blown out. As an aside, I find it funny that Outlast is the mechanical equivalent to "boosting" in the Pokemon game boy games: spend turns, then sweep.
Both Outlast creatures so far spoiled seem playable unbuffed, good after one activation, and remain as viable mana sinks that continue to scale to your needs.
Look at what the tradeoff is on the cards we have seen. Herald of Anafenza is a very powerful defensive creature, and that's why she costs so much to activate. She is immediately available to hold off many other one-drops. A single activation of Outlast gives you both a creature that wins vs. morphs and a creature that trades with X/1s or can help gangblock to kill attacking X/3s. In the mid-late game she can guarantee limitless chump blocking while passively growing into a threat.
Ainok Bond-kin is, first and foremost, a Piker, which is on-curve for efficiency and thus easily playable in Abzan and Mardu. He can get in for damage or trade right from the get-go. Not trading is worthwhile, though, because he is also ready to win vs. morphs after a single activation of Outlast. He can have immediate impact with his static ability later in the game on an Abzan field, where his First Strike enabling may upgrade another creature's combat relevance as if that creature had had another turn of Outlasting.
Abzan is an excellent design because it embraces the wedge in an interesting way instead of simply applying colored evergreen mechanics to cards. It's a different kind of control in that it wants to control via midrange creature dominance, a very green strategy, instead of simply doing the standard Azorius style of Wipe and Finisher. White is around in the semi-tribal theme, and the black is well represented by the risk-reward of Outlast, the acceptance of pain as a means to gain power over time.
A voice for Timmy.
Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
i hate everything about this ability so far. its slow. its mana intensive. theres no tricks involved to it because its sorcery speed. its designed with late game in mind, but you'll be dead before you get there because so far it opens you up to just get your ass handed to you. everything about it just feels bad so far.
i'm hoping by the time the full set is spoiled it improves.
Heroic was pretty much a flop in constructed and this is probably worse than the worst heroic card...
Sorcery speed really REALLY kills it. Wasn't very excited about Prowess when it was spoiled but Prowess is waaaaaay better than this. Heck, the lowly common is better than this rare.
Even the tokens don't make sense, it's like they purposely made them warriors instead of soldiers because of Obelisk of Urd and made the mana cost of activation three because Thraben Doomsayer was overpowered.
4 mana invested, 2/3 and a 1/1. 7 mana invested, 3/4 and 2 1/1s. etc
I would think the Khan has something to do with counter-manipulation - ala Ghave, Guru of Spores.
TBH it's a bit sad as Ghave seems like the perfect Khan for the clan...
Yeh Ghave does not fit at all: Makes saprolings, kills your own creatures, is a fungus shaman.
I like Ghave but it probably has no business in the whole block.
What I meant was mechanic-wise and power-wise. Not from a view point of flavor. Obvious Ghave doesn't fit the clan's mentality, but his abilities would be very good with Outlast.
I do not think I can agree with that at all. Ghave is far more powerful than any thus revealed outlast users because it can move counters at instant speed and saves value when you chump things.
I do not think Ghave benefits much from outlast, only serious value is from the tacked on things that say everyone with a counter gets something. Also, the amount that outlast benefits from Ghave is tiny compared to the amount that Ghave brings by itself.
As far as endurance, late game, and control, Ghave might not be the most obvious choice, but it is a piece of the puzzle. It ensures that your creatures go to the graveyard instead of letting something bad happen to them (exile, other player's control, bottom of your library, disabled by an enchantment, copied, etc).
Heliod is in the format. You don't necessarily have to skip combat for outlast.
It's a shame though, I believe outlast would have made more sense as if you could only activate it while defending, to then counterattack in the following (yours) turn. But oh well, I think it might be an interesting mechanic depending on what else we get. It's deceivingly offensive.
Yes well if you have heliod in play why not pay 2WW and get a 2/1? If this card had no activation cost, just tapping, it would most certainly be playable. Vigilant.dec
I'm hoping Outlast is the Unleash of Khans: a mechanic that hides an enjoyable, useful mechanic behind the pale, pasty flesh of its seemingly lackluster execution. Annie's Herald (Herald of Anafenza) gives me a bit of hope since it not only pumps itself, but makes its own army. Hopefully the other Outlast cards will be just as good.
Sorcery speed makes sense...because like most mechanics this one is far more about casual/limited play than competitive Standard. And in casual, and especially limited, sorcery speed is the right way to go. Realistically most mechanics don't translate very well to Standard these days. Usually a couple of pushed cards are good enough to make that transition, but they are the minority by far.
Why? IMO it is because WOTC learned that pushing mechanics too far tends to create very obvious and boring decks (i.e. jam everything with mechanic X) that tend to be insular, not playing well with others.
Maybe the "outlast" part of their clan is to outlast their controller.
A lot of cards are limited fodder and I understand how that works, but this looks like a rare Seller of Songbirds to me. The kind of card you play in draft that isn't exactly a bomb there...and then after the draft it goes to the rubbish card bin never to be seen/played again and that's just sad.
Even if this was just a Mobilization on a stick we'd probably still complain that it's a creature.
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Tapout control decks don't try to reach an unlosable gamestate in the late game, they try to survive with more powerful sorcery speed spells until their threats come online. This makes makes Outlast a rather silly mechanic for a klan whose theme is lasting forever. And what sort of powerful sorcery speed spells can we have when we are working with no 4 CMC wrath, don't have great 2/3 CMC removal, and don't have blue's card advantage?
Even if we see a lot of sorcery speed spells printed, the control decks will play those spells instead of spending their resources to tap their own creatures. These creatures simply should not be played in any control build. They can't block and Outlast, they don't create card advantage, and they make the control deck more susceptible to removal. If you are tapping out on a control deck, you need to be doing something worth the cost. Outlast almost certainly isn't.
The only exceptions I can think of would be creatures that start as 0/Xs with Outlast and "at the end of your turn, gain life equal to ~'s power."
Its all ridiculous to dismiss this mechanic given that we have one RARE implementation of it. This is essentially a limited pack rat again at worst, don't embarrass yourselves.
I didn't know that Vidicate, Abrubt Decay, Putrefy, and Maelstrom Pulse were in Standard.
The only thing that really throws me about this card are the tokens. Why are they Warriors? Warriors are usually G/R. White gets soldiers or knights.
WUBRGCommander Decklists - PaperWUBRG
CCCCCommander Decklists - TheorycraftCCCC
Sig Credit: Pegasus Bishop
What is the BEST case scenario for the Herald? T1, Herald. T2, removal. T3, Outlast. Now on T4 you have a 2/3 and a 1/1 and have removed a 1 or 2 drop. Your opponent has either emptied their hand (aggro), has landed a Courser/Polukranos, or used removal on your Herald after you tapped it. And once the 2/3 is removed, the tokens are just tokens.
Pack Rat has redundancy, exponential growth, synergy with mutavault and thoughtseize, and doesn't tap itself to put a token on the battlefield. Without that long list of positives it wouldn't be played. EDIT: It also doesn't require a tap. That is huge. That makes Outlast at least a 3 turn investment without Haste.
The sorcery speed makes the ostensibly spoiled Ivorytusk Fortress seem even more mediocre. Rational is fairly clear, though: most of the clan abilities seem to not operate outside of your turn in normal circumstances. Having one that breaks this symmetry for every card would have been imbalanced.
TBH it's a bit sad as Ghave seems like the perfect Khan for the clan but I sincerely hope they wont just reprint him and I doubt it to the point that it's not going to happen - not to mention it's a Fungus where all the Khans seems to be humans.
- Manite
Yeh Ghave does not fit at all: Makes saprolings, kills your own creatures, is a fungus shaman.
I like Ghave but it probably has no business in the whole block.
Mechanic blows but the extra abilities have potential.
I get that this mechanic is trying to save you cards - simply have a creature that makes its self bigger instead of having other cards in your deck that make it bigger - but the price comes at too high of a cost (multiple costs, even).
Disclaimer: when discussing set mechanics, I always look to Limited first. Constructed is a hodge-podge of select, individually powerful cards, less defined by their mechanics as the cards themselves. Thus, this review is for limited, where the mechanics are designed to interact in an environment that can support them and in which they will have good interactions with other mechanics in the set.
Outlast allows you to trade a turn of combat and some mana for permanent gains. It can be conceptualized very often like black's "pain draw" mechanic because you risk damage by investing - and realistically you should probably choose to take some early damage while having your Outlasters hunker down. That's what I love so much about this mechanic, it's subtle and it is very decision-heavy. By making it tap and sorcery, it's not just an optimal mana sink, it's always a tradeoff. Outlast is like Grindclock, where the optimal amount of activations is always a bit fiddly and conditional, and overly investing in specific permanents can open you up to being blown out. As an aside, I find it funny that Outlast is the mechanical equivalent to "boosting" in the Pokemon game boy games: spend turns, then sweep.
Both Outlast creatures so far spoiled seem playable unbuffed, good after one activation, and remain as viable mana sinks that continue to scale to your needs.
Look at what the tradeoff is on the cards we have seen. Herald of Anafenza is a very powerful defensive creature, and that's why she costs so much to activate. She is immediately available to hold off many other one-drops. A single activation of Outlast gives you both a creature that wins vs. morphs and a creature that trades with X/1s or can help gangblock to kill attacking X/3s. In the mid-late game she can guarantee limitless chump blocking while passively growing into a threat.
Ainok Bond-kin is, first and foremost, a Piker, which is on-curve for efficiency and thus easily playable in Abzan and Mardu. He can get in for damage or trade right from the get-go. Not trading is worthwhile, though, because he is also ready to win vs. morphs after a single activation of Outlast. He can have immediate impact with his static ability later in the game on an Abzan field, where his First Strike enabling may upgrade another creature's combat relevance as if that creature had had another turn of Outlasting.
Abzan is an excellent design because it embraces the wedge in an interesting way instead of simply applying colored evergreen mechanics to cards. It's a different kind of control in that it wants to control via midrange creature dominance, a very green strategy, instead of simply doing the standard Azorius style of Wipe and Finisher. White is around in the semi-tribal theme, and the black is well represented by the risk-reward of Outlast, the acceptance of pain as a means to gain power over time.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
i'm hoping by the time the full set is spoiled it improves.
Sorcery speed really REALLY kills it. Wasn't very excited about Prowess when it was spoiled but Prowess is waaaaaay better than this. Heck, the lowly common is better than this rare.
Even the tokens don't make sense, it's like they purposely made them warriors instead of soldiers because of Obelisk of Urd and made the mana cost of activation three because Thraben Doomsayer was overpowered.
4 mana invested, 2/3 and a 1/1. 7 mana invested, 3/4 and 2 1/1s. etc
I do not think I can agree with that at all. Ghave is far more powerful than any thus revealed outlast users because it can move counters at instant speed and saves value when you chump things.
I do not think Ghave benefits much from outlast, only serious value is from the tacked on things that say everyone with a counter gets something. Also, the amount that outlast benefits from Ghave is tiny compared to the amount that Ghave brings by itself.
As far as endurance, late game, and control, Ghave might not be the most obvious choice, but it is a piece of the puzzle. It ensures that your creatures go to the graveyard instead of letting something bad happen to them (exile, other player's control, bottom of your library, disabled by an enchantment, copied, etc).
Heliod is in the format. You don't necessarily have to skip combat for outlast.
It's a shame though, I believe outlast would have made more sense as if you could only activate it while defending, to then counterattack in the following (yours) turn. But oh well, I think it might be an interesting mechanic depending on what else we get. It's deceivingly offensive.
Yes well if you have heliod in play why not pay 2WW and get a 2/1? If this card had no activation cost, just tapping, it would most certainly be playable. Vigilant.dec
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Club Flamingo Wins: 10
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EDH Decks
BG Vicious Varolz | RW Jor Kadeen, the Mean Machine | RG Atarka: Muh_Dragons.dec (WIP) | WU Brago, Blink Eternal (WIP)
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Why? IMO it is because WOTC learned that pushing mechanics too far tends to create very obvious and boring decks (i.e. jam everything with mechanic X) that tend to be insular, not playing well with others.
Maybe the "outlast" part of their clan is to outlast their controller.
A lot of cards are limited fodder and I understand how that works, but this looks like a rare Seller of Songbirds to me. The kind of card you play in draft that isn't exactly a bomb there...and then after the draft it goes to the rubbish card bin never to be seen/played again and that's just sad.
Even if this was just a Mobilization on a stick we'd probably still complain that it's a creature.