Shrapnel Blast means you're 2-for-1ing yourself, which would be fine in an aggro deck. Not so much in a deck which is trying to ramp into a 6-drop. So you can't have both. Between the two I'd go with the ramp plan, simply because you don't have enough good attackers in UR.
Chief Engineer also needs support - yes, he does, they're called 1-drops. Ornithopter counts but you'll need more than just 4. Sadly there isn't an artifact creature that costs 1, because it would fit into both the Ensoul Artifact and Chief Engineer plans.
Actually, even with a few 1s he's still not that good, because leading T1 land, 1-drop; T2 land, Engineer only gives you 5 mana, 1 less than 6. So close.
I can already predict what you're going to say, so let me save you the trouble of typing it out.
1) Yes, if you lead with an extra Ornithopter, you can get 6 mana on turn 3. No, it is not going to happen as often as you think.
2) Yes, the difference between getting a 6-mana guy out on turn 3 vs turn 4 is significant.
People can discuss and disagree about a lot of the other stuff in that post, but the above sticks. Yes, it is powerful that you can get a 5/5 unreasonably early. Attacking on turn two isn't really comparable to squeezing out a green four mana 5/5 with summoning sickness on turn three. But the very dangerous flip side of this is that you're bound to get two-for-oned a lot when they play black removal on whatever this enchants unless it's a Darksteel Citadel. In that manner it's indeed similar to Phylactery Lich in that they could often destroy the artifact with the lich counter and two-for-one you, but this is vastly better in that it's so much faster. Lich rarely came down earlier than turn three with summoning sickness. If you're running, say, 4x Ornithopter 4x Darksteel Citadel 3x Springleaf Drum, this thing is going to attack on turn two a vast portion of the times you have it in your starting hand.
It's always going to be obvious though, if your opponent on the play sees a turn one Ornithopter and a blue land, he's going to keep that Doom Blade ready if he's got it. You are indeed taking a risk. I don't exactly expect this to dominate the format, but it's definitely going to see play.
Edit: I totally agree that what this deck needs is an artifact creature one drop or Memnite, I already did the Gatherer search :| I kinda expect to see one soon though, maybe in KTK.
Shrapnel Blast means you're 2-for-1ing yourself, which would be fine in an aggro deck. Not so much in a deck which is trying to ramp into a 6-drop. So you can't have both. Between the two I'd go with the ramp plan, simply because you don't have enough good attackers in UR.
Chief Engineer also needs support - yes, he does, they're called 1-drops. Ornithopter counts but you'll need more than just 4. Sadly there isn't an artifact creature that costs 1, because it would fit into both the Ensoul Artifact and Chief Engineer plans.
Actually, even with a few 1s he's still not that good, because leading T1 land, 1-drop; T2 land, Engineer only gives you 5 mana, 1 less than 6. So close.
I can already predict what you're going to say, so let me save you the trouble of typing it out.
1) Yes, if you lead with an extra Ornithopter, you can get 6 mana on turn 3. No, it is not going to happen as often as you think.
2) Yes, the difference between getting a 6-mana guy out on turn 3 vs turn 4 is significant.
Do you know why modern affinity doesn't try to ramp into a darksteel colossus? Because The deck isn't designed to fully invest and get Their final game plan path to Exiled. I'm not just going to ramp into a t4 Soul of New Phyrexia so it can get destroyed, that's worse then the Ensoul artifact plan, also why are we in a format with City of Brass in Standard and you think we can only do two colors?
I'm with IzzetMage. This card is good, probably playable, but not as good as Goyf and probably close to Phylactery Lich in power level. It gets points over Lich because, while Black has all sorts of efficient beaters, this is the first under-costed blue monster we've seen at this slot. (Let's be clear, Blue does get the best creatures, but Delver is an evasive 1 drop and Nemesis is a midgame 3 drop. Sissors falls into a different slot.)
I am unconvinced that this card is a substantial upgrade over the Genju cycle, however. Genjus come down faster, are more likely to have a target, avoid card disadvantage in part, and the good one (Spires) hits harder. The activation cost is a big deal, true, but it probably only makes Sissors marginally better, overall.
So Sissors is good. But it's not bonkers, and it will take some demonstrating to see if a slightly improved Genju gets there in constructed.
So, we're trying to ramp into stuff that isn't wurmcoil engine, using bad versions of grand architect, while playing bad versions of cranial plating, while also hoping that we can 17 someone with a successful attack with scuttling doom engine + shrapnel blast. Hello, magical christmas land.
Alright, I tried to build a deck that I'd be comfortable with playing. I've already said what I think of Shrapnel Blast and Chief Engineer as the plan Bs.
Summary of all the things this deck can do:
Thopter/Shield/Citadel + Ensoul Artifact
Thopter/Shield/Citadel + Pilgrim into Ensoul Artifact
Thopter/Shield + Illusory Angel
Pilgrim into Oppressive Rays, next turn Rays + Illusory Angel
*WARNING* At least one card in the above decklist was put there to troll you guys.
Since we're already throwing decklists around, here's some more janky fun-time theorycrafting. Tried to jam as much scrying in there as possible for consistency. Desperately needs a good one drop artifact creature.
What's up with the word "base?" That's new, right?
It's disambiguation: It makes it clear to everyone that it applies at a lower layer than, say, Tempered Steel (which would make the artifact 7/7) or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (which would make it 7/7 or 3/3, depending). Layers aren't something new players grok at first.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Guys, whether or not this is consistent enough to be a top-tier build-around-me, can we agree that the potential for a turn 2 5/5 indestructible in Standard is unhealthy? I mean, that simply annihilates a mono-red deck, and wins somewhere between potentially and reliably against most decks I can think of in Standard. That's just a dumb thing to have around. Even if it's not great, it will really skew what removal we run in the coming months simply by existing.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Guys, whether or not this is consistent enough to be a top-tier build-around-me, can we agree that the potential for a turn 2 5/5 indestructible in Standard is unhealthy? I mean, that simply annihilates a mono-red deck, and wins somewhere between potentially and reliably against most decks I can think of in Standard. That's just a dumb thing to have around. Even if it's not great, it will really skew what removal we run in the coming months simply by existing.
Mono-red is not a strong deck in standard right now, and in any case has the likes of madcap skills and firefist striker to answer the card (even more reliably). Also, this card is no good against the likes of Abrupt Decay, Azorius Charm, Banishing Light, Detention Sphere, Silence the Believers, Desecration Demon, etc. - all of which are seeing standard play in T1 decks.
Mono-red is not a strong deck in standard right now, and in any case has the likes of madcap skills and firefist striker to answer the card (even more reliably). Also, this card is no good against the likes of Abrupt Decay, Azorius Charm, Banishing Light, Detention Sphere, Silence the Believers, Desecration Demon, etc. - all of which are seeing standard play in T1 decks.
You know what those cards can do too? Answer most of monoblue devotion. Yet it's a tier 1 deck. Not a very compelling argument.
What's really killing this card for me isn't just that their are answers for it. It's also the setup that is required to make it good. Outside of turns 2 and 3, it's not really any faster or better than a Polukranos, Stormbreath Dragon, or Elspeth Sun's Champion. If you don't have the artifacts or your opponent does have an answer, you're getting 2 for 1'd. That's why I think it's being over estimated.
Mono-red is not a strong deck in standard right now, and in any case has the likes of madcap skills and firefist striker to answer the card (even more reliably). Also, this card is no good against the likes of Abrupt Decay, Azorius Charm, Banishing Light, Detention Sphere, Silence the Believers, Desecration Demon, etc. - all of which are seeing standard play in T1 decks.
You know what those cards can do too? Answer most of monoblue devotion. Yet it's a tier 1 deck. Not a very compelling argument.
What's really killing this card for me isn't just that their are answers for it. It's also the setup that is required to make it good. Outside of turns 2 and 3, it's not really any faster or better than a Polukranos, Stormbreath Dragon, or Elspeth Sun's Champion. If you don't have the artifacts or your opponent does have an answer, you're getting 2 for 1'd. That's why I think it's being over estimated.
I'm trying not to overestimate it, I just really don't like that it will be around. Within Standard for the next year and a half, somebody can turn 1 Darksteel Citadel, Ornithopter, Springleaf Drum, then turn 2 suit up the Citadel and swing. Yes, if I can answer the Ensoul, I'll be quite a bit in the lead. But if I didn't have the precise right spell in my opening 7, or if I'm on the play and have a hand full of scry lands, I'm taking between 5-15 damage in the first few turns.
I don't think such a deck will be top-tier competitive, but inevitably people will build it (especially as a budget option for FNM). I want to pilot a strong deck. I don't want to pilot a "strong deck unless one of the Ensoul players gets a good hand". That's what I meant earlier by "unhealthy".
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
I'd look to pair it with Commune with the Gods. It reminds me of those Quest for the Holy Relic decks with ornithopter, Glint Hawk, and Argentum Armor. You want to mull aggressively, and you want to draw one of the namesake cards. Is it good enough? Depends on the meta, specifically if people are mainboarding enchantment removal.
You know what those cards can do too? Answer most of monoblue devotion. Yet it's a tier 1 deck. Not a very compelling argument.
I wasn't making the "dies to removal" argument, only disputing the argument that "[Ensoul Artifact] will really skew what removal we run in the coming months simply by existing."
How about an aggro deck that uses Civic Saber as either a target for Ensoul, or for a +2/+0? It's not the same as a decent 1-drop artifact creature, but it's pretty close.
Early aggro is NEVER to be underestimated.
While you do open up to 2-for-ones the swing in Tempo is no small amount, 5/5's that are either indestructible or have flying hitting turn 2 are not a common occurrence in MTG. It's Almost unheard of in Standard.
If opening yourself to 2-for-ones was as bad as you think a R/W heroic deck would have never made top 8 in the Pro Tour Journey into Nyx - heroic cards are famous for vulnerability to removal, but the speed at which they kill simply overpowers the risk.
This is one of those cards. High risk - High reward.
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-Your friendly neighbourhood Rogue Deck Builder (no relation to the Youtuber).
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Personally, i wouldnt bother trying to make this card work. This is effectively turning two bad cards into a marginally decent creature that probably wont win the game for you. Two card combos that arent powerful by themselves usually arent very good unless they have synergy with the rest of the deck, which i feel that we are nowhere near to achieving yet unless we get a lot of good artifact support in the next block.
There are actually very similar things to this in standard, or have we all forgotten about our good friend voracious wurm? Why not build around him and pack in a bunch of brindle boars, then you can actually play cards that might do something and itll even make it a 6/6, that trades with a desecration demon.
My point is, its a cute card but we'd need far more support for it to be competitive. Sure its a neat combo for FNM level stuff, but this card is faaaar from competitive with the current support.
I've been brewing HARD with ensoul artifact, and i think I've found the recipe. You guys are just jamming crappy 0/2s into the deck for no reason. We DON'T HAVE TO play such bad magic cards to make this deck work.
The biggest problems I'm seeing with your lists is the lack of consistency or protection. Let's say for the sake of argument that you resolve your turn 2 ensoul artifact (roughly 10% starting hands will allow this)on your ornithopter. Great. Mono black (30%+ of the meta) just bought you dinner for making their job so easy. Now you're down 2 cards, tempo, and ability to actually play a game of magic.
Instead, let's try and put these cards into a shell that makes sense. I'm talking tutors, redundancy(8 effects of both ensoul AND an indestructible artifact), and protection.
8 of each piece, plenty of consistency with no need for crappy ornithopters. The artifacts are all indestructible, so most removal will be dead. Cards like Abrupt Decay, Detention Sphere, and Devour Flesh are all still very much live against you. In which case, you need some-
8 counters with 4 Dispel in the sideboard. Protecting your 5/5 is more important than anything. Most of the time the 5/5 should be good enough to close games on its own. Banishing light gives you a way to unlock your ensoul artifact while also giving us a way to deal with planeswalkers.
The removal suite allows you to play a control role until you can assemble the combo. Supreme Verdict is in the colors, but finding double white and blue while playing chained to the rocks AND darksteel citadel is greedy. Anger of the gods should be fine considering we have a tutorable swords to plowshares (chained to the rocks) and banishing light. Chained to the Rocks also wants us to play 12 mountains, which is fine with anger of the gods.
This manabase allows us to reasonably hit UR on turn 2 and 1RR on turn 3. The mana base has to be skewed towards red in order to support chained to the rocks anyway, but I would hear arguments for a mana base that can support supreme verdict instead. Obviously verdict is the actual nanners with our 5/5 indestructible.
Back in the day folks seemed pretty happy to use two cards - Dark Ritual and Phyrexian Negator - to get 5/5 that could attack on turn two. Things have changed a lot since then, but this card still might find its place.
why are you guys playing dead cards to attack for five on turn 2 when you can just play boos sligh. play a cackler and put a madcap skills on it same thing.
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Chief Engineer also needs support - yes, he does, they're called 1-drops. Ornithopter counts but you'll need more than just 4. Sadly there isn't an artifact creature that costs 1, because it would fit into both the Ensoul Artifact and Chief Engineer plans.
Actually, even with a few 1s he's still not that good, because leading T1 land, 1-drop; T2 land, Engineer only gives you 5 mana, 1 less than 6. So close.
I can already predict what you're going to say, so let me save you the trouble of typing it out.
1) Yes, if you lead with an extra Ornithopter, you can get 6 mana on turn 3. No, it is not going to happen as often as you think.
2) Yes, the difference between getting a 6-mana guy out on turn 3 vs turn 4 is significant.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
People can discuss and disagree about a lot of the other stuff in that post, but the above sticks. Yes, it is powerful that you can get a 5/5 unreasonably early. Attacking on turn two isn't really comparable to squeezing out a green four mana 5/5 with summoning sickness on turn three. But the very dangerous flip side of this is that you're bound to get two-for-oned a lot when they play black removal on whatever this enchants unless it's a Darksteel Citadel. In that manner it's indeed similar to Phylactery Lich in that they could often destroy the artifact with the lich counter and two-for-one you, but this is vastly better in that it's so much faster. Lich rarely came down earlier than turn three with summoning sickness. If you're running, say, 4x Ornithopter 4x Darksteel Citadel 3x Springleaf Drum, this thing is going to attack on turn two a vast portion of the times you have it in your starting hand.
It's always going to be obvious though, if your opponent on the play sees a turn one Ornithopter and a blue land, he's going to keep that Doom Blade ready if he's got it. You are indeed taking a risk. I don't exactly expect this to dominate the format, but it's definitely going to see play.
Edit: I totally agree that what this deck needs is an artifact creature one drop or Memnite, I already did the Gatherer search :| I kinda expect to see one soon though, maybe in KTK.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Do you know why modern affinity doesn't try to ramp into a darksteel colossus? Because The deck isn't designed to fully invest and get Their final game plan path to Exiled. I'm not just going to ramp into a t4 Soul of New Phyrexia so it can get destroyed, that's worse then the Ensoul artifact plan, also why are we in a format with City of Brass in Standard and you think we can only do two colors?
I am unconvinced that this card is a substantial upgrade over the Genju cycle, however. Genjus come down faster, are more likely to have a target, avoid card disadvantage in part, and the good one (Spires) hits harder. The activation cost is a big deal, true, but it probably only makes Sissors marginally better, overall.
So Sissors is good. But it's not bonkers, and it will take some demonstrating to see if a slightly improved Genju gets there in constructed.
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Mana Confluence
6 Plains
2 Island
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Ensoul Artifact
4 Heliod's Pilgrim
4 Illusory Angel
4 Dryad Militant
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Dauntless River Marshal
4 Oppressive Rays
Summary of all the things this deck can do:
Thopter/Shield/Citadel + Ensoul Artifact
Thopter/Shield/Citadel + Pilgrim into Ensoul Artifact
Thopter/Shield + Illusory Angel
Pilgrim into Oppressive Rays, next turn Rays + Illusory Angel
*WARNING* At least one card in the above decklist was put there to troll you guys.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Sunblade Elf
4 Ornithopter
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Springleaf Drum
Enchantments: 3
4 Ensoul Artifact
3 Detention Sphere
Planeswalkers: 2
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Instants: 4
4 Cyclonic Rift
4 DarkSteel Citadel
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple Garden
4 Mana Confluence
4 Mutavault
3 Breeding Pool
4 Scuttling Doom Engine
2 Hoarding Dragon
4 Chief Engineer
3 Omenspeaker
4 Ornithopter
2 Vortex Elemental
4 Ensoul Artifact
3 Springleaf Drum
Instants (10)
4 Shrapnel Blast
2 Magma Jet
2 Turn to Frog
2 Dissolve
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Shivan Reef
4 Temple of Epiphany
8 Island
4 Mountain
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
It's disambiguation: It makes it clear to everyone that it applies at a lower layer than, say, Tempered Steel (which would make the artifact 7/7) or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (which would make it 7/7 or 3/3, depending). Layers aren't something new players grok at first.
On phasing:
Mono-red is not a strong deck in standard right now, and in any case has the likes of madcap skills and firefist striker to answer the card (even more reliably). Also, this card is no good against the likes of Abrupt Decay, Azorius Charm, Banishing Light, Detention Sphere, Silence the Believers, Desecration Demon, etc. - all of which are seeing standard play in T1 decks.
I hear Talara's Battalion is really good, too.
You know what those cards can do too? Answer most of monoblue devotion. Yet it's a tier 1 deck. Not a very compelling argument.
What's really killing this card for me isn't just that their are answers for it. It's also the setup that is required to make it good. Outside of turns 2 and 3, it's not really any faster or better than a Polukranos, Stormbreath Dragon, or Elspeth Sun's Champion. If you don't have the artifacts or your opponent does have an answer, you're getting 2 for 1'd. That's why I think it's being over estimated.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
I'm trying not to overestimate it, I just really don't like that it will be around. Within Standard for the next year and a half, somebody can turn 1 Darksteel Citadel, Ornithopter, Springleaf Drum, then turn 2 suit up the Citadel and swing. Yes, if I can answer the Ensoul, I'll be quite a bit in the lead. But if I didn't have the precise right spell in my opening 7, or if I'm on the play and have a hand full of scry lands, I'm taking between 5-15 damage in the first few turns.
I don't think such a deck will be top-tier competitive, but inevitably people will build it (especially as a budget option for FNM). I want to pilot a strong deck. I don't want to pilot a "strong deck unless one of the Ensoul players gets a good hand". That's what I meant earlier by "unhealthy".
I'll raise you: Myr Superion.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I wasn't making the "dies to removal" argument, only disputing the argument that "[Ensoul Artifact] will really skew what removal we run in the coming months simply by existing."
3 Ornithopter
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Dryad Militant
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Fleecemane Lion
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Loxodon Smiter
4 Civic Saber
4 Ensoul Artifact
3 Military Intelligence
2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2 Brave the Elements
2 Selesnya Charm
... Bull.
Early aggro is NEVER to be underestimated.
While you do open up to 2-for-ones the swing in Tempo is no small amount, 5/5's that are either indestructible or have flying hitting turn 2 are not a common occurrence in MTG. It's Almost unheard of in Standard.
If opening yourself to 2-for-ones was as bad as you think a R/W heroic deck would have never made top 8 in the Pro Tour Journey into Nyx - heroic cards are famous for vulnerability to removal, but the speed at which they kill simply overpowers the risk.
This is one of those cards. High risk - High reward.
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There are actually very similar things to this in standard, or have we all forgotten about our good friend voracious wurm? Why not build around him and pack in a bunch of brindle boars, then you can actually play cards that might do something and itll even make it a 6/6, that trades with a desecration demon.
My point is, its a cute card but we'd need far more support for it to be competitive. Sure its a neat combo for FNM level stuff, but this card is faaaar from competitive with the current support.
The biggest problems I'm seeing with your lists is the lack of consistency or protection. Let's say for the sake of argument that you resolve your turn 2 ensoul artifact (roughly 10% starting hands will allow this)on your ornithopter. Great. Mono black (30%+ of the meta) just bought you dinner for making their job so easy. Now you're down 2 cards, tempo, and ability to actually play a game of magic.
Instead, let's try and put these cards into a shell that makes sense. I'm talking tutors, redundancy(8 effects of both ensoul AND an indestructible artifact), and protection.
Try this:
Redundancy and Tutors:
8 of each piece, plenty of consistency with no need for crappy ornithopters. The artifacts are all indestructible, so most removal will be dead. Cards like Abrupt Decay, Detention Sphere, and Devour Flesh are all still very much live against you. In which case, you need some-
Protection:
8 counters with 4 Dispel in the sideboard. Protecting your 5/5 is more important than anything. Most of the time the 5/5 should be good enough to close games on its own. Banishing light gives you a way to unlock your ensoul artifact while also giving us a way to deal with planeswalkers.
Removal:
The removal suite allows you to play a control role until you can assemble the combo. Supreme Verdict is in the colors, but finding double white and blue while playing chained to the rocks AND darksteel citadel is greedy. Anger of the gods should be fine considering we have a tutorable swords to plowshares (chained to the rocks) and banishing light. Chained to the Rocks also wants us to play 12 mountains, which is fine with anger of the gods.
Card Draw
These Spells can help find the missing piece of the combo while retaining plenty of utility.
Lands:
This manabase allows us to reasonably hit UR on turn 2 and 1RR on turn 3. The mana base has to be skewed towards red in order to support chained to the rocks anyway, but I would hear arguments for a mana base that can support supreme verdict instead. Obviously verdict is the actual nanners with our 5/5 indestructible.
So, Here's the full thing
4x Banishing Light
3x Chained to the Rocks
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Darksteel ingot
4x Ensoul Artifact
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Heliod's Pilgrim
4x izzet Charm
4x Magma Jet
3x mana Confluence
4x Mountain
4x Negate
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Steam Vents
1x temple of enlightenment
1x Temple of Epiphany
TappedOut Link: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uwr-soul-copy/