Regardless of what you think it does, the reality is that Riki Hayashi already said no, it doesn't go infinite. So if you were at a GP and a level 3 judge handed down this ruling, would you try to argue with him? Let me know how that goes, if it ever comes up.
I think I understand how Chain Veil works and from what I can say, you cannot go infinite but I do have a question (this may have already been answered but sorry, TL;DR):
I have Chain Veil and a Planeswalker (let's say a random Chandra) in play:
I activate Chandra's +1
I use Chain Veil
I activate Chandra's +1 again
Let's say I have tons of mana and a way to untap my Chain Veil during my turn. I use it again.
Can I still use any of Chandra's abilities?
yes
this is how the ability works:
For each planeswalker you control,
(this ability (the chain veil's ability) will kind of create a copy of the next ability(after the ,) on the stack for each planeswalker you control.)
you may activate one of its loyalty abilities
You may activate the ability while the chain veil's ability is on the stack.
once this turn
soo that you don't activate the abilities to infinitum... oo
as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
to get over the rule
606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn. #
Regardless of what you think it does, the reality is that Riki Hayashi already said no, it doesn't go infinite. So if you were at a GP and a level 3 judge handed down this ruling, would you try to argue with him? Let me know how that goes, if it ever comes up.
Yes.
I've never played at level this high, but at lower levels I did challenge the judges (last time about the use of Mogis, God of Slaughter in 2HG).
And I prevailed. With good enough internet access, it can be done.
Regardless of what you think it does, the reality is that Riki Hayashi already said no, it doesn't go infinite. So if you were at a GP and a level 3 judge handed down this ruling, would you try to argue with him? Let me know how that goes, if it ever comes up.
I hate to say this but in real life i have much more prouf that this works this way then a level 3 judge have (level 4 judge :rolleyes:)
Regardless of what a level 3 judge says, the ability is an activated ability, not static. Each activation grants each planeswalker one use as if none were used. You could then use those effects to untap the veil, then tap the chain veil again to give another one use as if none were used.
Can you go infinite? yes. Is a level 3 judge wrong? yes.
"Once this turn" refers to the timing, not the restriction of the use.
If it merely said that you could activate the ability, you would be activating the abilities immediately on resolution of Chain Veil's ability, with the wording on the card, you are activating it during your main phase as a sorcery instead.
I read it the same as the implied text on land where it can only be tapped for mana once and doesn't untap until next upkeep. However, clearly we have cards that untap lands. We also have cards that untap artifacts (Key, Tezz, etc). The fact that this card doesn't say "This ability can only be activated once per turn" (sort of like Quirion Ranger). While this card says "Use only one more time", I feel it just reinforces the fact that planeswalker abilities are only able to be activated once per turn. As was said previously, the "as though it hasn't been activated this turn" part allows for multiple activations and works with the planeswalker rulings allowing only one activation.
We'll see what the official rulings are, but I wouldn't think there would be that much ambiguity in a Core Set card, and therefore it can be untapped and reused.
"Once this turn" refers to the timing, not the restriction of the use.
If it merely said that you could activate the ability, you would be activating the abilities immediately on resolution of Chain Veil's ability, with the wording on the card, you are activating it during your main phase as a sorcery instead.
I think it can go infinite.
It's implicit that an ability is used upon its activation unless stated otherwise, meaning that your interpretation would make the text entirely unnecessary.
There's a lot of wishful thinking, rules lawyering, and lack of reading comprehension being displayed on this topic (none of that directed at your Kryptnyt). What people want Chain Veil to do seems to be clouding some obvious, plain text interpretation of what it actually does. If they had wanted there to be an infinite loop, then there would be no need to explicitly state "once" in the text, as every activation is used only once by default.
Creating new instances of Chain Veil (via playing a 2nd one, blinking it, etc.) the only way this new toy is going infinite.
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If it does not go infinite, I think you would need to blink the planeswalkers and not the Chain itself. It seems to be checking whether or not the planeswalkers have activated their abilities and does so during resolution, so blinking the chain would be not change anything.
You may activate the ability while the chain veil's ability is on the stack.
once this turn
soo that you don't activate the abilities to infinitum... oo
I agree with some of what you said except the part about activating the ability while The Chain Veil's ability is on the stack. This is because The Chain Veil specifies a duration when you can activate the PW ability - "this turn." If it did not specify a duration, then you would activate the PW ability during the resolution of The Chain Veil's ability.
Compare Knowledge Exploitation and Stolen Goods. Knowledge Exploitation does not specify a duration so you are required to cast the chosen card while KE is resolving. On the other hand, Stolen Goods does give you a duration. In that case, SG fully resolves first. Then you are allowed to cast the chosen card as normal (without paying its mana cost).
In this way, The Chain Veil doesn't allow you to activate PW abilities during your opponents' turns or at instant speed.
This topic is so full of wrong information that it really needs closed until wizards says something.
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All the Judge said was that Chain Veil can't go infinite, he did not say in what context, so the position needs to be clarified. Clearly there is a way to create an unbounded loop involving Chain Veil leading to an unbounded number of planeswalker activations regardless of how you interpret the phrase "once this turn".
For example, even if "once this turn" limits you per planeswalker permanent regardless of the number of activations of Veil, it is obvious that there is still a way to "go infinite" with Chain Veil if you are able to blink your planeswalkers in between each Chain Veil activation, say by recurring the card Flicker; as each time they are blinked the planeswalkers are a new permanent and thus no longer affected by any previous "once" limitation.
tldr: The Judge's twitter comment needs to be clarified.
If you hit with brago you could do it two times in a round ignoring all rules and all judges hahaha. Obviously you have to leave one planeswalker un-flicked to allow ultimate
While this card is exciting because it's novel, it's not actually very powerful. To make it powerful requires a fragile combo set up, which usually succeed only at the kitchen table.
8 mana to get a second play on my walkers? Idk... Maybe Karn Liberated.
Honestly, if they wanted a "once more, that's it" effect, it should have written like:
"(4), (t): Until end of turn, you may activate up to two loyalty abilities of planeswalkers you control instead of one."
The redundancy would be much more clear, and no go infinite, it that's what was intended.
While this card is exciting because it's novel, it's not actually very powerful. To make it powerful requires a fragile combo set up, which usually succeed only at the kitchen table.
If by fragile combo you mean atleast one planeswalker in play.. being able to activate a second ability per turn for 4 mana isn't something you can ignore as an opposing player, especially when it means it will ultimate twice as fast. That's also assuming you're only staring down at ONE planeswalker and not multiple.
Sure, we will eventually find out if it can or can't go infinate. Regardless of the ruling it will still be a huge threat.
I'm inclined to believe Riki's ruling, if it were able to be used multiple times the text would be much simpler and succinct. I think this is a card that could have used some sort of reminder text, especially in a core set.
again:
If it was ony once you could use the chain veil per turn to make value of it then they would make:
While this card is exciting because it's novel, it's not actually very powerful. To make it powerful requires a fragile combo set up, which usually succeed only at the kitchen table.
If by fragile combo you mean atleast one planeswalker in play.. being able to activate a second ability per turn for 4 mana isn't something you can ignore as an opposing player, especially when it means it will ultimate twice as fast. That's also assuming you're only staring down at ONE planeswalker and not multiple.
Sure, we will eventually find out if it can or can't go infinate. Regardless of the ruling it will still be a huge threat.
Or it will simply be a win-more toy. If you have multiple planeswalkers on the board, you're going to be ahead and/or winning most of the time anyways. If you're at the point where an opponent lets this resolve AND become activated, then you're absolutely ahead to the extent that it didn't matter whether you had it or not.
It's going to be awesome anytime you get to use. The question is whether any competitve deck would ever allow you to get to that point, or whether you'd even need to once you were that far ahead. My gut tells not likely, but in the slowest of formats, it's entirely possible.
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I'm inclined to believe Riki's ruling, if it were able to be used multiple times the text would be much simpler and succinct. I think this is a card that could have used some sort of reminder text, especially in a core set.
again:
If it was ony once you could use the chain veil per turn to make value of it then they would make:
Again, they already have most of those words on the card. Adding that line would be rendundant and push space on an already crowded card.
Again, if you can do this more than once per turn, what does the text "once per turn" on the card mean?
humm i don't know (sarcarsm)
maybe it is because if they didn't had this the ability would be:
For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
so it gains : you may play this ability how many times you want ...
606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn. #
you see ?
this:
as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
gets around 606.3 and soo the loyalt ability may be activated as much times you want cause for the ability you didn't played a planeswalker ability this turn...
If they wanted you to repeatably use this it would use the word additional. That way when you do it again, you get another additional activation and everyone is happy and everyone understands. And if i could think of this is 5 seconds, imagine the people at wizards who spent months looking at this card.
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate an additional one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
If they wanted you to repeatably use this it would use the word additional. That way when you do it again, you get another additional activation and everyone is happy and everyone understands. And if i could think of this is 5 seconds, imagine the people at wizards who spent months looking at this card.
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate an additional one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
Nope -- that wording would look like you have to activate different ability than the one you've activated first.
If they wanted you to repeatably use this it would use the word additional. That way when you do it again, you get another additional activation and everyone is happy and everyone understands. And if i could think of this is 5 seconds, imagine the people at wizards who spent months looking at this card.
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate an additional one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
Yeah the same usage of "once this turn" or didn't you readed my last post ...
The thing is if we remove the once this turn
we have :
For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
that alows you to use it as much times as you want...
the huge font is for you read and get over this discussion that is won ( on the once this turn don t restricting combos to go infinite)
Reread my post, I don't use the phrase "once this turn"
We have "For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
Remove this part
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
Add this
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate an additional one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
This still holds you to 1 extra ability, and makes sense to stack them.
The only surefire solution to prevent confusion would be to issue errata for the card to clarify what it does. Having Tabak rule one way or the other doesn't mean anything; players will still be confused by the multiple interpretations of the card by just reading the card text. Gatherer doesn't work as a foolproof solution either, since Gatherer rulings are merely derived from CR rules, and it's evident that even with the citation of CR rules, the confusion of the intended functionality still exists.
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yes
this is how the ability works:
For each planeswalker you control,
(this ability (the chain veil's ability) will kind of create a copy of the next ability(after the ,) on the stack for each planeswalker you control.)
you may activate one of its loyalty abilities
You may activate the ability while the chain veil's ability is on the stack.
once this turn
soo that you don't activate the abilities to infinitum... oo
as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
to get over the rule
Yes.
I've never played at level this high, but at lower levels I did challenge the judges (last time about the use of Mogis, God of Slaughter in 2HG).
And I prevailed. With good enough internet access, it can be done.
I hate to say this but in real life i have much more prouf that this works this way then a level 3 judge have (level 4 judge :rolleyes:)
also
the date of the tweet:
22:33 - 1 de jul de 2014
https://twitter.com/mtgRikipedia/status/484208247210274816
the card had been spoiled
he maybe did a rushed comment ...
wait for the FAC
and a possible new tweet from hin saying " I m sorry"
Can you go infinite? yes. Is a level 3 judge wrong? yes.
If it merely said that you could activate the ability, you would be activating the abilities immediately on resolution of Chain Veil's ability, with the wording on the card, you are activating it during your main phase as a sorcery instead.
I think it can go infinite.
No, not even remotely. The Chain Veil does not copy abilities.
We'll see what the official rulings are, but I wouldn't think there would be that much ambiguity in a Core Set card, and therefore it can be untapped and reused.
It's implicit that an ability is used upon its activation unless stated otherwise, meaning that your interpretation would make the text entirely unnecessary.
There's a lot of wishful thinking, rules lawyering, and lack of reading comprehension being displayed on this topic (none of that directed at your Kryptnyt). What people want Chain Veil to do seems to be clouding some obvious, plain text interpretation of what it actually does. If they had wanted there to be an infinite loop, then there would be no need to explicitly state "once" in the text, as every activation is used only once by default.
Creating new instances of Chain Veil (via playing a 2nd one, blinking it, etc.) the only way this new toy is going infinite.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I agree with some of what you said except the part about activating the ability while The Chain Veil's ability is on the stack. This is because The Chain Veil specifies a duration when you can activate the PW ability - "this turn." If it did not specify a duration, then you would activate the PW ability during the resolution of The Chain Veil's ability.
Compare Knowledge Exploitation and Stolen Goods. Knowledge Exploitation does not specify a duration so you are required to cast the chosen card while KE is resolving. On the other hand, Stolen Goods does give you a duration. In that case, SG fully resolves first. Then you are allowed to cast the chosen card as normal (without paying its mana cost).
In this way, The Chain Veil doesn't allow you to activate PW abilities during your opponents' turns or at instant speed.
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If you hit with brago you could do it two times in a round ignoring all rules and all judges hahaha. Obviously you have to leave one planeswalker un-flicked to allow ultimate
8 mana to get a second play on my walkers? Idk... Maybe Karn Liberated.
Honestly, if they wanted a "once more, that's it" effect, it should have written like:
"(4), (t): Until end of turn, you may activate up to two loyalty abilities of planeswalkers you control instead of one."
The redundancy would be much more clear, and no go infinite, it that's what was intended.
If by fragile combo you mean atleast one planeswalker in play.. being able to activate a second ability per turn for 4 mana isn't something you can ignore as an opposing player, especially when it means it will ultimate twice as fast. That's also assuming you're only staring down at ONE planeswalker and not multiple.
Sure, we will eventually find out if it can or can't go infinate. Regardless of the ruling it will still be a huge threat.
Again, they already have most of those words on the card. Adding that line would be rendundant and push space on an already crowded card.
Again, if you can do this more than once per turn, what does the text "once per turn" on the card mean?
Or it will simply be a win-more toy. If you have multiple planeswalkers on the board, you're going to be ahead and/or winning most of the time anyways. If you're at the point where an opponent lets this resolve AND become activated, then you're absolutely ahead to the extent that it didn't matter whether you had it or not.
It's going to be awesome anytime you get to use. The question is whether any competitve deck would ever allow you to get to that point, or whether you'd even need to once you were that far ahead. My gut tells not likely, but in the slowest of formats, it's entirely possible.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
humm i don't know (sarcarsm)
maybe it is because if they didn't had this the ability would be:
For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
so it gains : you may play this ability how many times you want ...
you see ?
this:
as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
gets around 606.3 and soo the loyalt ability may be activated as much times you want cause for the ability you didn't played a planeswalker ability this turn...
No, the abilities of the planeswalkers are activated with the normal rules (aka sorcery speed). They are not activated while the ability resolves.
Level 2 Judge
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate an additional one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
Nope -- that wording would look like you have to activate different ability than the one you've activated first.
Yeah the same usage of "once this turn" or didn't you readed my last post ...
The thing is if we remove the once this turn
we have :
For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn.
that alows you to use it as much times as you want...
the huge font is for you read and get over this discussion that is won ( on the once this turn don t restricting combos to go infinite)
We have "For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
Remove this part
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities
once this turnas though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."Add this
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate an additional one of its loyalty abilities as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
This still holds you to 1 extra ability, and makes sense to stack them.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
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Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall