And where does my post says otherwise? Veil or not, you can allways forget/choose not to activate a PW, the wording on the veil however makes it so (wheter you activated the PW's ability or not), you can, from the point the veil's ability resolves, use each of your PW's ability once during that turn.
And where does my post says otherwise? Veil or not, you can allways forget/choose not to activate a PW, the wording on the veil however makes it so (wheter you activated the PW's ability or not), you can, from the point the veil's ability resolves, use each of your PW's ability once during that turn.
Exactly. Whereas I say that if you haven't used a planeswalker's ability, you have two effects that allow you to do so: basic rules saying you can do it once per turn, and the effect that says you can ignore that limitation once. So the ability can be activated twice -- first the one you're allowed, and then the one you're given by the effect.
The fact it doesn't state "use this ability only once per turn" implies that there is a way to get value out of multiple activations. I think the relevant part is "one ability once this turn". Because of the "one ability" part I speculate you can get the chain veil to allow the activation of each loyalty ability on a planeswalker once, so long as you activate the chain veil that many times. This does not count the original ability you use. The "this turn" I speculate is what stops you from going infinite. Normally the word "this" is not present, see Karador as an example.
You are only suposed to be able to use the veil once each turn, as it taps to activate, however, the wording on the veil has to do with how PW abilities work, in order to avoid the mess that extra land drops are, the veil is worded so that it clearly states that from the point that the ability resolves onward, you can use PW abilities ONCE, regardless of wheter you use any PW ability before that.
There are cards that tap and you may only use once per turn. See patron of the orochi. No idea how to tag on a phone.
And where does my post says otherwise? Veil or not, you can allways forget/choose not to activate a PW, the wording on the veil however makes it so (wheter you activated the PW's ability or not), you can, from the point the veil's ability resolves, use each of your PW's ability once during that turn.
Exactly. Whereas I say that if you haven't used a planeswalker's ability, you have two effects that allow you to do so: basic rules saying you can do it once per turn, and the effect that says you can ignore that limitation once. So the ability can be activated twice -- first the one you're allowed, and then the one you're given by the effect.
No, the veil doesn't say "an extra time", it says use it ONCE, so you can only use it ONCE from this point on, it doesn't matter if you had any "avilable" activations or not before the veil's ability reslved, you can use it ONE TIME and that's it. See the following secuence:
1. Your turn starts. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
2. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation. (They don't add up, the veil says use it once this turn, not one extra time this turn).
3. You use your PW. You have 0 avilable PW activations.
4. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
5. You use the veil's ability again. You have 1 avilable PW activation (not 2, remember, they don't add up).
6. You use your PW. You now have 0 avilable activations.
7. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable
8. You use your PW. You have 0 avilable PW activations.
9. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
The key here is "AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS LOYALTY ABILITIES HAD BEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN", this basicly says i don't know or care how many times you have used each PW, from now on, you get to use it ONCE, thus it "overrides" whatever has been done before in terms of PW abilities.
And where does my post says otherwise? Veil or not, you can allways forget/choose not to activate a PW, the wording on the veil however makes it so (wheter you activated the PW's ability or not), you can, from the point the veil's ability resolves, use each of your PW's ability once during that turn.
Exactly. Whereas I say that if you haven't used a planeswalker's ability, you have two effects that allow you to do so: basic rules saying you can do it once per turn, and the effect that says you can ignore that limitation once. So the ability can be activated twice -- first the one you're allowed, and then the one you're given by the effect.
No, the veil doesn't say "an extra time", it says use it ONCE, so you can only use it ONCE from this point on, it doesn't matter if you had any "avilable" activations or not before the veil's ability reslved, you can use it ONE TIME and that's it. See the following secuence:
1. Your turn starts. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
2. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation. (They don't add up, the veil says use it once this turn, not one extra time this turn).
3. You use your PW. You have 0 avilable PW activations.
4. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
5. You use the veil's ability again. You have 1 avilable PW activation (not 2, remember, they don't add up).
6. You use your PW. You now have 0 avilable activations.
7. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable
8. You use your PW. You have 0 avilable PW activations.
9. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
The key here is "AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS LOYALTY ABILITIES HAD BEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN", this basicly says i don't know or care how many times you have used each PW, from now on, you get to use it ONCE, thus it "overrides" whatever has been done before in terms of PW abilities.
No. Similar to how oracle of mul daya works if you activate your planeswalker you choose if you are using the regular one or the one granted by the veil. My take anyway.
And where does my post says otherwise? Veil or not, you can allways forget/choose not to activate a PW, the wording on the veil however makes it so (wheter you activated the PW's ability or not), you can, from the point the veil's ability resolves, use each of your PW's ability once during that turn.
Exactly. Whereas I say that if you haven't used a planeswalker's ability, you have two effects that allow you to do so: basic rules saying you can do it once per turn, and the effect that says you can ignore that limitation once. So the ability can be activated twice -- first the one you're allowed, and then the one you're given by the effect.
No, the veil doesn't say "an extra time", it says use it ONCE, so you can only use it ONCE from this point on, it doesn't matter if you had any "avilable" activations or not before the veil's ability reslved, you can use it ONE TIME and that's it. See the following secuence:
1. Your turn starts. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
2. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation. (They don't add up, the veil says use it once this turn, not one extra time this turn).
3. You use your PW. You have 0 avilable PW activations.
4. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
5. You use the veil's ability again. You have 1 avilable PW activation (not 2, remember, they don't add up).
6. You use your PW. You now have 0 avilable activations.
7. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable
8. You use your PW. You have 0 avilable PW activations.
9. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
The key here is "AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS LOYALTY ABILITIES HAD BEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN", this basicly says i don't know or care how many times you have used each PW, from now on, you get to use it ONCE, thus it "overrides" whatever has been done before in terms of PW abilities.
No. Similar to how oracle of mul daya works if you activate your planeswalker you choose if you are using the regular one or the one granted by the veil. My take anyway.
No, the veil doesn't grant an additional PW activation, it grants you the ability to use a planes walker "AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS LOYALTY ABILITIES HAD BEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN", you only get ONE or CERO activations at any one time.
And where does my post says otherwise? Veil or not, you can allways forget/choose not to activate a PW, the wording on the veil however makes it so (wheter you activated the PW's ability or not), you can, from the point the veil's ability resolves, use each of your PW's ability once during that turn.
Exactly. Whereas I say that if you haven't used a planeswalker's ability, you have two effects that allow you to do so: basic rules saying you can do it once per turn, and the effect that says you can ignore that limitation once. So the ability can be activated twice -- first the one you're allowed, and then the one you're given by the effect.
No, the veil doesn't say "an extra time", it says use it ONCE, so you can only use it ONCE from this point on, it doesn't matter if you had any "avilable" activations or not before the veil's ability reslved, you can use it ONE TIME and that's it. See the following secuence:
1. Your turn starts. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
2. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation. (They don't add up, the veil says use it once this turn, not one extra time this turn).
3. You use your PW. You have 0 avilable PW activations.
4. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
5. You use the veil's ability again. You have 1 avilable PW activation (not 2, remember, they don't add up).
6. You use your PW. You now have 0 avilable activations.
7. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable
8. You use your PW. You have 0 avilable PW activations.
9. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
The key here is "AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS LOYALTY ABILITIES HAD BEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN", this basicly says i don't know or care how many times you have used each PW, from now on, you get to use it ONCE, thus it "overrides" whatever has been done before in terms of PW abilities.
No. Similar to how oracle of mul daya works if you activate your planeswalker you choose if you are using the regular one or the one granted by the veil. My take anyway.
No, the veil doesn't grant an additional PW activation, it grants you the ability to use a planes walker "AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS LOYALTY ABILITIES HAD BEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN", you only get ONE or CERO activations at any one time.
I am not disputing that. However you get the option of using the ability as normal if you have yet to do so. At that point you also have the ability to use it as if you haven't used one this turn. However if you choose to use the activation granted by the veil first you may no longer use the regular one as you have now used a loyalty ability.
For the record, each activation grants an additional use of PW loyalty abilities. It is not one or nothing as previously theorized in the thread.
"From the upcoming M15 Release Notes:
'Each additional time The Chain Veil’s last ability resolves will allow you to activate a loyalty ability of each planeswalker you control an additional time. For example, if you activate The Chain Veil’s last ability, untap it, then activate it again, you can activate a loyalty ability of a planeswalker you control three times that turn.'"
Given the wording it seems odd, but comming from Matt Tabak, it should be true.
Nah, people are just not good at grammar. "Once" is referring to the fact that you can activate them one more time (not two more times, not infinitely many times) and the "this turn" is referring to the fact that the effect ends at the end of turn. It's the clearest way to say it, as the other thread proved with people's awful attempts to reword it, and it certainly doesn't prohibit the ability from being used multiple times. Cards like Oracle of Mul Daya are no different - "one more" and "an additional" are the same thing and the same logic that says "it just says once, not twice or thrice" can be applied to "it just means one more, not two or three more."
The card's grammar is perfectly fine, even if someone could read it in a way that wasn't intended. Precedent and simple logic made it clear that it was made in a way that allowed multiple uses.
I actually felt the need to finally register for this site because of this discussion.
As worded, it is quite obviously once per turn per activation of 'The Coma Veil' provided that the ability has been activated prior to Coma Veil's activation.
Each activation of 'The Coma Veil' allows the player a single activation of each of his or her planeswalkers and does not concern itself with whether or not you have previously activated any of your planeswalkers abilities so if you want multiple activations be sure to activate your planeswalker before activating your Veil.
The key phrase for understanding the card is "as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn." Each activation will treat your planeswalkers as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn, and allow you one additional activation of their abilities. The only limitations that the once clause impose are that a single activation of this ability does not allow additional activations of multiple separate abilities or allow multiple additional activations of each of your planeswalkers.
I came up with a simple three card combo to use the chain veil infinitely, in modern: Tezzeret the Seeker, Nissa Worldwaker, and the chain veil itself. You should also probably have prismatic omens in the deck, for mana, but yeah. After that, you just add in one other PW, and suddenly they can go nuts, going off millions of times in a turn if you felt like it.
Given the wording it seems odd, but comming from Matt Tabak, it should be true.
I originally thought the wording made it so you couldn't activate the Chain Veil more than once in a turn and get infinite activations if you had the mana. I was clearly wrong and it makes sense now. Then again, more than one level 3 judge was at first confused by this card. The wording on Chain Veil is simply designed to allow only one more use of the planeswalker(s) per turn. Without saying "Once per turn", simply tapping this artifact would allow you to use the planeswalker ability or abilities an infinite number of times. Also, every time Wizards has printed a card where they only wanted one activation per turn, they used the wording "Use this ability only once per turn", it should have appeared obvious to me that the wording was simply the required wording to prevent an infinite number of planeswalker activations just by tapping one artifact and paying 4 mana.
I came up with a simple three card combo to use the chain veil infinitely, in modern: Tezzeret the Seeker, Nissa Worldwaker, and the chain veil itself. You should also probably have prismatic omens in the deck, for mana, but yeah. After that, you just add in one other PW, and suddenly they can go nuts, going off millions of times in a turn if you felt like it.
Not very original. It was posted here like 2 days ago by Solzan Nemesis commenting on the same concept combo by Jazus.
I feel like the card is pretty clear...if you can untap the veil and use it again then it lets you use your PWers as though their abilities had not been used. The judge simply saying it can't go infinite gives NO support for this statement.
Given the wording it seems odd, but comming from Matt Tabak, it should be true.
Nah, people are just not good at grammar. "Once" is referring to the fact that you can activate them one more time (not two more times, not infinitely many times) and the "this turn" is referring to the fact that the effect ends at the end of turn. It's the clearest way to say it, as the other thread proved with people's awful attempts to reword it, and it certainly doesn't prohibit the ability from being used multiple times. Cards like Oracle of Mul Daya are no different - "one more" and "an additional" are the same thing and the same logic that says "it just says once, not twice or thrice" can be applied to "it just means one more, not two or three more."
The card's grammar is perfectly fine, even if someone could read it in a way that wasn't intended. Precedent and simple logic made it clear that it was made in a way that allowed multiple uses.
I was actually advocating for that (you can use it as many times as you want, as long as you have the mana and the untaped Veil), except that because of the wording it seemed like you couldnt use ability copying effects, as it seemed like you needed to use your PW between each instance of the veil's ability resolving. That's what seemed odd.
first of all i want to say that @tenzoku is my hero. he's one of the few that actually read the entire text of the card (as though none of it's abilities have been activated...) instead of the many people who simply stopped at the word 'once.' i enjoyed watching you explain to people how they were wrong (i felt like i was cheering for my fav sports team). =D is that nerdy/lame?
anyways after reading the card (many times) i still dont see how multiple veil activations/copies will stack w/o actiavting PW abilities in between, but at the same time...it kinda seems like you could...idk
@Tzefick leave him alone dude...why should you care so much to make sure that this dude knows that someone else had the idea before him? like, what does taht actually do for you? don't be a jerk. =P
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Exactly. Whereas I say that if you haven't used a planeswalker's ability, you have two effects that allow you to do so: basic rules saying you can do it once per turn, and the effect that says you can ignore that limitation once. So the ability can be activated twice -- first the one you're allowed, and then the one you're given by the effect.
There are cards that tap and you may only use once per turn. See patron of the orochi. No idea how to tag on a phone.
No, the veil doesn't say "an extra time", it says use it ONCE, so you can only use it ONCE from this point on, it doesn't matter if you had any "avilable" activations or not before the veil's ability reslved, you can use it ONE TIME and that's it. See the following secuence:
1. Your turn starts. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
2. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation. (They don't add up, the veil says use it once this turn, not one extra time this turn).
3. You use your PW. You have 0 avilable PW activations.
4. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
5. You use the veil's ability again. You have 1 avilable PW activation (not 2, remember, they don't add up).
6. You use your PW. You now have 0 avilable activations.
7. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable
8. You use your PW. You have 0 avilable PW activations.
9. You use the veil's ability. You have 1 avilable PW activation.
The key here is "AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS LOYALTY ABILITIES HAD BEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN", this basicly says i don't know or care how many times you have used each PW, from now on, you get to use it ONCE, thus it "overrides" whatever has been done before in terms of PW abilities.
No. Similar to how oracle of mul daya works if you activate your planeswalker you choose if you are using the regular one or the one granted by the veil. My take anyway.
https://mobile.twitter.com/mtgRikipedia/status/484398443901640705
No, the veil doesn't grant an additional PW activation, it grants you the ability to use a planes walker "AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS LOYALTY ABILITIES HAD BEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN", you only get ONE or CERO activations at any one time.
I am not disputing that. However you get the option of using the ability as normal if you have yet to do so. At that point you also have the ability to use it as if you haven't used one this turn. However if you choose to use the activation granted by the veil first you may no longer use the regular one as you have now used a loyalty ability.
Source: https://twitter.com/TabakRules/status/484423968288296961
My custom sets:
Caeia Block (Released - Beta)
Generals of Dareth (In Design)
I hope Chain Veil doesn't nerf future walkers for fear of combo.
Nah, people are just not good at grammar. "Once" is referring to the fact that you can activate them one more time (not two more times, not infinitely many times) and the "this turn" is referring to the fact that the effect ends at the end of turn. It's the clearest way to say it, as the other thread proved with people's awful attempts to reword it, and it certainly doesn't prohibit the ability from being used multiple times. Cards like Oracle of Mul Daya are no different - "one more" and "an additional" are the same thing and the same logic that says "it just says once, not twice or thrice" can be applied to "it just means one more, not two or three more."
The card's grammar is perfectly fine, even if someone could read it in a way that wasn't intended. Precedent and simple logic made it clear that it was made in a way that allowed multiple uses.
As worded, it is quite obviously once per turn per activation of 'The Coma Veil' provided that the ability has been activated prior to Coma Veil's activation.
Each activation of 'The Coma Veil' allows the player a single activation of each of his or her planeswalkers and does not concern itself with whether or not you have previously activated any of your planeswalkers abilities so if you want multiple activations be sure to activate your planeswalker before activating your Veil.
The key phrase for understanding the card is "as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn." Each activation will treat your planeswalkers as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn, and allow you one additional activation of their abilities. The only limitations that the once clause impose are that a single activation of this ability does not allow additional activations of multiple separate abilities or allow multiple additional activations of each of your planeswalkers.
Once per turn per activation.
I originally thought the wording made it so you couldn't activate the Chain Veil more than once in a turn and get infinite activations if you had the mana. I was clearly wrong and it makes sense now. Then again, more than one level 3 judge was at first confused by this card. The wording on Chain Veil is simply designed to allow only one more use of the planeswalker(s) per turn. Without saying "Once per turn", simply tapping this artifact would allow you to use the planeswalker ability or abilities an infinite number of times. Also, every time Wizards has printed a card where they only wanted one activation per turn, they used the wording "Use this ability only once per turn", it should have appeared obvious to me that the wording was simply the required wording to prevent an infinite number of planeswalker activations just by tapping one artifact and paying 4 mana.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/new-card-discussion/563629-chain-veil-infinite-combos
I was actually advocating for that (you can use it as many times as you want, as long as you have the mana and the untaped Veil), except that because of the wording it seemed like you couldnt use ability copying effects, as it seemed like you needed to use your PW between each instance of the veil's ability resolving. That's what seemed odd.
anyways after reading the card (many times) i still dont see how multiple veil activations/copies will stack w/o actiavting PW abilities in between, but at the same time...it kinda seems like you could...idk