If I activate The Chain Veil, is there a static rule in effect for the rest of the turn that all my walkers can activate an extra ability? Does it only affect planeswalkers I control when I activate it?
Does the veil just reset whether a PW has used any of its loyalty abilities, or does it say "You can do it an extra time this turn, even if you haven't done it at all yet"? If I copy the ability with that lovely red ogre Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient, do I get to activate each PW two extra times?
I believe that you have to have previously used the abilities, since it says "as though none were used". That said, I don't think the ogre works with it because you are just letting yourself use it twice but since it says as though it hadn't been used and if you used it once it would be overridden, thus allowing you to do it only once. I could be wrong about the second part, but the first part I am fairly certain of.
I think that this creates an effect similar to older wording of extra land drops effect.
You can activate a loyalty ability either on its own, or through the effect of The Chain Veil. If you activate it through The Chain Veil, that particular effect will no longer apply to that planeswalker. If you have multiple effects, you can use any of them for activation of loyalty ability.
I think the wording simply gives you one extra activation per planeswalker, no matter if they have been used before the ability resolved or not. That is the cleanest way to do an ability such as this and unlike extra land drops, there's no way to "flicker" the effect.
I believe that you have to have previously used the abilities, since it says "as though none were used". That said, I don't think the ogre works with it because you are just letting yourself use it twice but since it says as though it hadn't been used and if you used it once it would be overridden, thus allowing you to do it only once. I could be wrong about the second part, but the first part I am fairly certain of.
Clearly, this is wrong. The wording says "you can activate it once this turn as though none of it's abilities have been activated this turn", please mind the full wording.
This can be done before or after you activate your walker.
Since the activated abilities of planeswalkers can only be activated at sorcery speed there's no profitable interaction with Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient, The Chain Veil and planeswalkers.
Why wouldn't Kurkesh work with the Chain Veil? It clearly states that "you may activate one of it's abilities once this turn".
Nowhere in the card wording does it force you to activate it at instant speed, it just lets you activate them as if you hadn't.
It just means that you can't activate them in your opponent's turns.
" For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
Pretty sure that would mean that this wouldn't stack
" For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
Pretty sure that would mean that this wouldn't stack
Nope. It's the same thing as "You may play one extra land this turn." If you have the effect itself multiple times, it will stack.
Nope. It's the same thing as "You may play a land once this turn as if you hadn't played a land." which doesn't stack.
Note the text "ONCE this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn"
Hm, I checked the card probably closest to The Chain Veil's wording (Karador, Ghost Chieftain), and the rulings say:
If you cast a creature card from your graveyard, then Karador leaves the battlefield, then returns to the battlefield, you may cast another creature card from your graveyard that turn. If you didn't cast a creature card from your graveyard while Karador was on the battlefield the first time, you may still cast only one creature card from your graveyard when it returns to the battlefield.
Karador, though, has a static ability, so it exists constantly, while The Chain Veil has activated ability. It's like each activation creates a separate Karador-like effect.
So, what happens if you have two copies of Karador (thanks to Mirror Gallery, Sakashima the Impostor or something like that)?
It's interesting to see how many people have trouble comprehending the word "once". Once means one time, guys. If you stack two things that say once, you still only get one.
It's interesting to see how many people have trouble comprehending the word "once".
You aren't considering what this "once" modifies, though. It modifies activating planeswalker abilities, not activating The Chain Veil's ability. Thus, you have to be able to activate The Chain Veil's ability multiple times (if you can untap it). There's nothing on the card that limits, in any way, the number of times you can activate this ability (again, if you can untap it). So what do you think happens if you activate the ability a second time? The second one will say "you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once...", and hence you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once (again). "You may...(number of times)", (for example, "you may...once") limits the number of times this particular ability allows you to do something. It's well-established that effects like Exploration or Journey of Discovery stack, allowing multiple additional land drops for each one that is played. Journey of Discovery says "you may play up to two additional lands". If you play a second Journey of Discovery and try to play third or fourth additional lands, is the correct ruling that you can't do so because the first one said "you may play up to two", and three or four is not "up to two"? If not (clearly not), then each activation of The Chain Veil allows you to play a planeswalker ability as though you had played no abilities of that planesalker, even though this is more than the "once" that you were permitted from the first activation.
Problem with the ruling is that it only tells us that it doesn't go infinite, but it doesn't address why. He needs to bring arguments to support it. Ideally, better arguments than the thread
Yes, although that is the wording of the card, also keep in mind the planeswalkers rules where you can only activate one loyalty ability per turn. Since that is the case and it says you can activate it AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS ABILITIES HAD BEEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN, you have already activated the loyalty from the chain veil and therefore you can't activate the original one, because that ruling says only once per turn.
Although I could still be wrong, because you decided to act like you were superior to me, I will completely disregard anything else you have to say unless you have prove you are a judge.
also as the chain veil is worded you activated the abilities while the chain's ability is resolving (this one i m not sure) soo it could make possible for instant speed activations ...
if you activate the veil when a planeswalker have not used a LW ability then you may activate it but then when you coud activate a LW ability then you may not do it.
There's the problem, we've been trained since Legends at least that the template of an ability you only get to use once a turn, no matter how many times you activate it, is tagged with "Activate/Use this ability only once each turn." When they change the templating on us without a corresponding rules discussion, it causes confusion. Clearly, the wording on this templating (if it is indeed intended to show that you can only get one extra activation) is much murkier than the existing templating.
Would you have the option to use a different ability for the second activation? For example -2 jace, activate veil, +1 jace, activate veil again, -2 jace a second time?
I think the wording is very clear, the activations DO NOT stack. If you activate the chain veil 20 times (or copy the ability 19 times)you can't use PW abilities 21 times in one turn, as each activation overwrites the previous one (it's basicly a reset), you can however do the following:
1. Activate PW abilities.
2. Activate Chain Veil (from this point onward, for rules purposes, you have NOT activated PW abilities this turn).
3. Activate PW abilities.
4. Activate Chain Veil again (from this point onward again, for rules purposes, you have NOT activated PW abilities this turn).
5. Repeat Steps 3 and 4 as many times as you want.
So... if you can use PW abilities between each veil activation, you can "go infinite". As PW abilities are sorcery speed, copying the veil's ability doesn't work, as each copy resolves, it will overwrite the previous one, and when all copies resolve, you will have 1 activation left to do.
So what does the text "once per turn" mean on the card? If you can repeat it than what can you only do once per turn?
You can activate it "ONCE THIS TURN" means... you can activate once, you are looking at it wrong, it doesn't work like exploration/explore effects. Those effects actually stack on each other, thus the game sees how many "land drops" you have avilable at any one time. This ability on the other hand doesn't stack on each other, each one replaces the previous one, thus, if by the time the ability resolves you already used up your PW activations, this effect says, ok, lets forget what you did up to this point, and you can use them "ONCE THIS TURN".
The fact it doesn't state "use this ability only once per turn" implies that there is a way to get value out of multiple activations. I think the relevant part is "one ability once this turn". Because of the "one ability" part I speculate you can get the chain veil to allow the activation of each loyalty ability on a planeswalker once, so long as you activate the chain veil that many times. This does not count the original ability you use. The "this turn" I speculate is what stops you from going infinite. Normally the word "this" is not present, see Karador as an example.
I think the wording is very clear, the activations DO NOT stack. If you activate the chain veil 20 times (or copy the ability 19 times)you can't use PW abilities 21 times in one turn, as each activation overwrites the previous one (it's basicly a reset), you can however do the following:
1. Activate PW abilities.
2. Activate Chain Veil (from this point onward, for rules purposes, you have NOT activated PW abilities this turn).
3. Activate PW abilities.
4. Activate Chain Veil again (from this point onward again, for rules purposes, you have NOT activated PW abilities this turn).
5. Repeat Steps 3 and 4 as many times as you want.
So... if you can use PW abilities between each veil activation, you can "go infinite". As PW abilities are sorcery speed, copying the veil's ability doesn't work, as each copy resolves, it will overwrite the previous one, and when all copies resolve, you will have 1 activation left to do.
WHY would each activation overwrite the first one? Are there any other cards that work like that? It looks more like each activation sets up a separate effect, nothing is getting overwritten.
The fact it doesn't state "use this ability only once per turn" implies that there is a way to get value out of multiple activations. I think the relevant part is "one ability once this turn". Because of the "one ability" part I speculate you can get the chain veil to allow the activation of each loyalty ability on a planeswalker once, so long as you activate the chain veil that many times. This does not count the original ability you use. The "this turn" I speculate is what stops you from going infinite. Normally the word "this" is not present, see Karador as an example.
You are only suposed to be able to use the veil once each turn, as it taps to activate, however, the wording on the veil has to do with how PW abilities work, in order to avoid the mess that extra land drops are, the veil is worded so that it clearly states that from the point that the ability resolves onward, you can use PW abilities ONCE, regardless of wheter you use any PW ability before that.
I think the wording is very clear, the activations DO NOT stack. If you activate the chain veil 20 times (or copy the ability 19 times)you can't use PW abilities 21 times in one turn, as each activation overwrites the previous one (it's basicly a reset), you can however do the following:
1. Activate PW abilities.
2. Activate Chain Veil (from this point onward, for rules purposes, you have NOT activated PW abilities this turn).
3. Activate PW abilities.
4. Activate Chain Veil again (from this point onward again, for rules purposes, you have NOT activated PW abilities this turn).
5. Repeat Steps 3 and 4 as many times as you want.
So... if you can use PW abilities between each veil activation, you can "go infinite". As PW abilities are sorcery speed, copying the veil's ability doesn't work, as each copy resolves, it will overwrite the previous one, and when all copies resolve, you will have 1 activation left to do.
WHY would each activation overwrite the first one? Are there any other cards that work like that? It looks more like each activation sets up a separate effect, nothing is getting overwritten.
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS LOYALTY ABILITIES HAD BEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN"
That means, i don't care how many times you activated the PW ability, from this point onward, you may activate it ONCE this turn.
I think the wording is very clear, the activations DO NOT stack. If you activate the chain veil 20 times (or copy the ability 19 times)you can't use PW abilities 21 times in one turn, as each activation overwrites the previous one (it's basicly a reset), you can however do the following:
1. Activate PW abilities.
2. Activate Chain Veil (from this point onward, for rules purposes, you have NOT activated PW abilities this turn).
3. Activate PW abilities.
4. Activate Chain Veil again (from this point onward again, for rules purposes, you have NOT activated PW abilities this turn).
5. Repeat Steps 3 and 4 as many times as you want.
So... if you can use PW abilities between each veil activation, you can "go infinite". As PW abilities are sorcery speed, copying the veil's ability doesn't work, as each copy resolves, it will overwrite the previous one, and when all copies resolve, you will have 1 activation left to do.
WHY would each activation overwrite the first one? Are there any other cards that work like that? It looks more like each activation sets up a separate effect, nothing is getting overwritten.
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS LOYALTY ABILITIES HAD BEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN"
That means, i don't care how many times you activated the PW ability, from this point onward, you may activate it ONCE this turn.
Nope, it doesn't mean anything like that.
It's an optional effect (you may). That means that if you haven't activated the planeswalker's ability yet, you are not forced to use up the "extra" activation.
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Does the veil just reset whether a PW has used any of its loyalty abilities, or does it say "You can do it an extra time this turn, even if you haven't done it at all yet"? If I copy the ability with that lovely red ogre Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient, do I get to activate each PW two extra times?
You can activate a loyalty ability either on its own, or through the effect of The Chain Veil. If you activate it through The Chain Veil, that particular effect will no longer apply to that planeswalker. If you have multiple effects, you can use any of them for activation of loyalty ability.
I think the wording simply gives you one extra activation per planeswalker, no matter if they have been used before the ability resolved or not. That is the cleanest way to do an ability such as this and unlike extra land drops, there's no way to "flicker" the effect.
Clearly, this is wrong. The wording says "you can activate it once this turn as though none of it's abilities have been activated this turn", please mind the full wording.
This can be done before or after you activate your walker.
Why wouldn't Kurkesh work with the Chain Veil? It clearly states that "you may activate one of it's abilities once this turn".
Nowhere in the card wording does it force you to activate it at instant speed, it just lets you activate them as if you hadn't.
It just means that you can't activate them in your opponent's turns.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
" For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn."
Pretty sure that would mean that this wouldn't stack
Nope. It's the same thing as "You may play one extra land this turn." If you have the effect itself multiple times, it will stack.
Note the text "ONCE this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities had been activated this turn"
Hm, I checked the card probably closest to The Chain Veil's wording (Karador, Ghost Chieftain), and the rulings say:
If you cast a creature card from your graveyard, then Karador leaves the battlefield, then returns to the battlefield, you may cast another creature card from your graveyard that turn. If you didn't cast a creature card from your graveyard while Karador was on the battlefield the first time, you may still cast only one creature card from your graveyard when it returns to the battlefield.
Karador, though, has a static ability, so it exists constantly, while The Chain Veil has activated ability. It's like each activation creates a separate Karador-like effect.
So, what happens if you have two copies of Karador (thanks to Mirror Gallery, Sakashima the Impostor or something like that)?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/new-card-discussion/rumored-card-rulings/238232-karador-ghost-chieftain-and-haakon-stromgald suggests that in this case each Karador allows you to cast one creature from graveyard, which would mean that "once" means "you can do this once through this effect" having multiple effects of The Chain Veil active at the same time would allow you to activate the abilities multiple times.
A level 3 judge's ruling.
You aren't considering what this "once" modifies, though. It modifies activating planeswalker abilities, not activating The Chain Veil's ability. Thus, you have to be able to activate The Chain Veil's ability multiple times (if you can untap it). There's nothing on the card that limits, in any way, the number of times you can activate this ability (again, if you can untap it). So what do you think happens if you activate the ability a second time? The second one will say "you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once...", and hence you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once (again). "You may...(number of times)", (for example, "you may...once") limits the number of times this particular ability allows you to do something. It's well-established that effects like Exploration or Journey of Discovery stack, allowing multiple additional land drops for each one that is played. Journey of Discovery says "you may play up to two additional lands". If you play a second Journey of Discovery and try to play third or fourth additional lands, is the correct ruling that you can't do so because the first one said "you may play up to two", and three or four is not "up to two"? If not (clearly not), then each activation of The Chain Veil allows you to play a planeswalker ability as though you had played no abilities of that planesalker, even though this is more than the "once" that you were permitted from the first activation.
Problem with the ruling is that it only tells us that it doesn't go infinite, but it doesn't address why. He needs to bring arguments to support it. Ideally, better arguments than the thread
Although I could still be wrong, because you decided to act like you were superior to me, I will completely disregard anything else you have to say unless you have prove you are a judge.
if it was ony once you could use the chain veil per turn to make value of it then they would make:
use this ability once per turn
as we see in :
also as the chain veil is worded you activated the abilities while the chain's ability is resolving (this one i m not sure) soo it could make possible for instant speed activations ...
if you activate the veil when a planeswalker have not used a LW ability then you may activate it but then when you coud activate a LW ability then you may not do it.
1. Activate PW abilities.
2. Activate Chain Veil (from this point onward, for rules purposes, you have NOT activated PW abilities this turn).
3. Activate PW abilities.
4. Activate Chain Veil again (from this point onward again, for rules purposes, you have NOT activated PW abilities this turn).
5. Repeat Steps 3 and 4 as many times as you want.
So... if you can use PW abilities between each veil activation, you can "go infinite". As PW abilities are sorcery speed, copying the veil's ability doesn't work, as each copy resolves, it will overwrite the previous one, and when all copies resolve, you will have 1 activation left to do.
You can activate it "ONCE THIS TURN" means... you can activate once, you are looking at it wrong, it doesn't work like exploration/explore effects. Those effects actually stack on each other, thus the game sees how many "land drops" you have avilable at any one time. This ability on the other hand doesn't stack on each other, each one replaces the previous one, thus, if by the time the ability resolves you already used up your PW activations, this effect says, ok, lets forget what you did up to this point, and you can use them "ONCE THIS TURN".
WHY would each activation overwrite the first one? Are there any other cards that work like that? It looks more like each activation sets up a separate effect, nothing is getting overwritten.
You are only suposed to be able to use the veil once each turn, as it taps to activate, however, the wording on the veil has to do with how PW abilities work, in order to avoid the mess that extra land drops are, the veil is worded so that it clearly states that from the point that the ability resolves onward, you can use PW abilities ONCE, regardless of wheter you use any PW ability before that.
"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn AS THOUGH NONE OF ITS LOYALTY ABILITIES HAD BEN ACTIVATED THIS TURN"
That means, i don't care how many times you activated the PW ability, from this point onward, you may activate it ONCE this turn.
Nope, it doesn't mean anything like that.
It's an optional effect (you may). That means that if you haven't activated the planeswalker's ability yet, you are not forced to use up the "extra" activation.