White: Heliod's pilgrim - Replaces itself and fetches any aura, which can be combo pieces like bear umbra or curiosity or powerhouses like eldrazi conscription. Naturally, not a general staple but good in the decks that actually run auras like bruna, light of alabaster and uril, the miststalker avacyn, guardian angel - Vigilance is awesome in multiplayer, and when you are sitting on 7 untapped mana it's almost never worth attacking you, so your opponents hopefully kill eachother hushwing gryff - Stops so much, while you can build around it not stopping your own stuff
Black: Ob Nixilis, Unshackled - The anti-tutor is nice, and his creature's dying ability can make him quite large in multiplayer. Soul of innistrad - I actually really like this effect more than the others for the more drawn out EDH games, the equivalent of drawing 3 threats for 5 mana is quite strong in my eyes. waste not - This thing is pure blowouts. Make 3 people discard their hands, get a million mana, creatures, and cards.
Green: Nissa, worldwaker - Planeswalkers are generally not the best in EDH, but 5 mana for 4 mana worth of ramp can go from T5 nissa T6 win with 10 mana phytotitan - A fire an forget defensive creature that can do great things with cards like greater good
Multicolor:
None
Arfitacts: Obelisk of urd - Lots of power very fast for any tribal deck or ridiculous generals like prossh, skyraider of kher Perilous vault - Generic board wipe similar to the already staple oblivion stone Soul of new phyrexia - A little questionable( only really good if ahead ), but I have to imagine it's a worthy include in many decks for the boardwipe protection.
What do you guys think are the good EDH cards in the set?
I like Ob Nixxilis, Unshackled in control.
I really love Hushwing Gryff, I hope they print more and more of these effects. Activated ability on a land anyone?
I'm interested in testing Chasm Skulker out in stax, could be bad, could be great.
I'm cooking up some stuff to abuse Chief Engineer with, it is however, not as broken as I hoped. Necromancer's Stockpile is lots of fun, probably going to see play. Life's Legacy is great card draw for stompy decks. I don't play these though. Return to the Ranks will have some niche applications, either way, lots of fun as well.
I'm still thanking the gods for Aggresive Mining. Lovely design!
Edit: This would be a better thread if placed in commander sub-forum though.
I completely disagree with your take on Avacyn. She can't protect herself with her first ability, and in a multiplayer game, sitting on 7 mana only helps during one opponent's turn. You're a sitting duck after that. New Avacyn is just awful in every format.
I completely disagree with your take on Avacyn. She can't protect herself with her first ability, and in a multiplayer game, sitting on 7 mana only helps during one opponent's turn. You're a sitting duck after that. New Avacyn is just awful in every format.
The person who forces avacyn's 7 mana ability typically has to make themselves completely vulnerable to do it.
If you're talking about multiple players teaming up on one, then yes, of course you will fall behind. Not falling behind means that there is some horrible power difference between decks at the table.
Not necessarily. With the variety of infinite combos available, damage isn't even always the main road to victory, but mass token decks and infinite damage combos won't even bat an eye at her. Kiki-Jiki and the sprite combo with Goblin Bombardment would take care of Avacyn first, since she can't prevent damage to herself, and can wait until the next player's upkeep if necessary to finish off the Avacyn player. She's straight up bad.
Not necessarily. With the variety of infinite combos available, damage isn't even always the main road to victory, but mass token decks and infinite damage combos won't even bat an eye at her. Kiki-Jiki and the sprite combo with Goblin Bombardment would take care of Avacyn first, since she can't prevent damage to herself, and can wait until the next player's upkeep if necessary to finish off the Avacyn player. She's straight up bad.
Yeah, she loses to infinite creatures + goblin bombardment. What an awful card. She only beats that combo if they don't have the singleton bombardment out, oh woe is avacyn.
Perilous Vault - fills the same colourless reset role as O-Stone, Nevy's Disk and All is Dust.
In Garruk's Wake - same black blowout sorcery style card as Plague Wind with an extra upside.
Those 2 will generically see play in a lot of decks since they fill a common necessary roll and add redundancy to similar cards.
Everything else is less obvious and pretty much comes down to a deck by deck analysis - Sliver Hive and Hivelord are obvious inclusions for a Sliver deck, Nissa and Genesis Hydra make for nice Green/x ramp deck additions and so on.
Probably my favorite new EDH card (not that i've got a deck for it at the moment) is Soul of Innistrad, which is a lot of good grindy value, a decent amount of combo potential and has the graveyard ability which is a nice restock in the mid-late game. It also fills that perfect position of being strong while hopefully not being the most threatening/best target creature on the board.
I'm currently playing Selvala, Explorer Returned Enchantress, Glissa, the Traitor reanimator/toolbox, Arcanis the Omnipotent tempo/control, and Krenko, Mob Boss Goblins. I'm just going to call out the ones that I'll be testing in my decks and the ones that are interesting even though I don't have a deck for them so I don't have to go through the whole set
Boonweaver Giant- Between Land Tax, Tithe, Knight of the Reliquary, and all of the green ramp I run, this guy seems worth the price tag. I've been looking for curve-toppers anyway. Being only a 4/4 isn't great though.
Hushwing Gryff- is certainly not a card I will be playing in any of my EDH decks. I'm one of those guys who loves ETB effects
Return to the Ranks- Most of the creatures in this deck cost 2 or less. I always have lots of mana available, and this plays quite well with Mentor of the Meek
Spirit Bonds- As an enchantress deck, this seems right up my alley. Not only is it an enchantment that plays well with the rest of my deck, it is another card that helps protect the creatures that I voltron up with Auras. This has almost a guaranteed spot in my deck, especially since it's so aggressively costed
Blue (Arcanis)- Quickling- I run quite a few ETB effects and manlands. I wish it was a 3/3, but this thing might be tricky enough for me to want to play it.
Ætherspouts- This looks like an all-star to me. Awesome tempo play, and a pretty sweet political tool
Chasm Skulker- I draw a LOT of cards. This seems like a nice curve-filler that can potentially win games by itself.
Master of Predicaments- I love this card so much. This is an auto-include, and I don't even need to test it. Playing mind-games with my opponent is the whole reason I'm playing this Arcanis deck, and this is the mind-gameist of all
Mercurial Pretender- Utter trash. I just wanted to spotlight this card and how terrible the "you control" clause is. Why on earth would you ever run this over any of the other amazing clone effects unless you had some kind of combo you could set up with the bounce ability (I don't)?
Military Intelligence- I'm not sure I have room for this effect, but it essentially plays as a one-sided Howling Mine in my deck which is nice
Black (Glissa): Endless Obedience- I don't think this makes the cut over any of my other reanimator effects. Reanimate and Unearth are the only ones I'm running that aren't attach to creatures. Both of those are vastly superior to this card. I might give it a shot though, since I do often have a board full of creatures to convoke
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled- I just want to point out how hard this card wrecks my deck. I search my library at least once per turn, usually more often than that. If you run this card, I will immediately focus every ounce of power I have to destroy you. So much worse than Aven Mindcensor, because at least that isn't a threat
Waste Not- Doesn't currently do much in my deck. I just want to point out how amazing this would be in a multiplayer game with Memory Jar. In magical christmas land, where I have Glissa, this, and the jar in play at the same time....
Red (Krenko): Act on Impulse- Considering this deck is half goblins, and most of them cost 2 or less, this card seems like a no-brainer
Aggressive Mining- I'm very intently considering running this card. This deck's biggest problem is running out of gas, and turning excess land into cards is pretty sweet. If you could use the ability more than once per turn it would be an auto-include. However, the fact that I would also need to run ways to get rid of it (Claws of Gix or something) makes it less appealing.
Generator Servant- this card would purely be used to give Krenko haste. I've already got a few ways to do that, but giving him haste makes him SO much more powerful
Goblin Kaboomist- seems like a no-brainer. I'm certainly running worse goblins right now, and with a Goblin King or other Lord effect down, this guy becomes quite good
Goblin Rabblemaster- A goblin that makes more goblins and encourages you to blindly attack every turn? Yup, you're in
Krenko's Enforcer- Costs 3 only 2 power and no utility...I will certainly not be playing it
Paragon of Fierce Defiance- I can get behind this. Another Lord effect, and gives Krenko haste? Actually a very exciting card
Nissa, Worldwaker- Selvala is all over this card. Glissa doesn't really need the effect
Reclamation Sage- Nothing to not like about this card, will probably make it into both decks
Sunblade Elf- Selvala will love this card. I've been running Wild Nacatl anyway, and this is just better
Gold: Garruk, Apex Predator- This card might make it into Glissa at some point, but there's no guarantee. It seems like it could either be really good or a waste of 7 mana
Artifact: Obelisk of Urd- Seems like it has a place in Krenko. Not the most exciting thing, but I can convoke it out easily enough and it makes me threaten lethal that much faster
Perilous Vault- Arcanis will probably like this card. None of my other decks want it though. Glissa would much rather have Oblivion Stone, since I have so much recursion
There are some other cards that look interesting, just not so much for me.
Yeah, she loses to infinite creatures + goblin bombardment. What an awful card. She only beats that combo if they don't have the singleton bombardment out, oh woe is avacyn.
She's awkward, expensive, and vulnerable. It's not so much a card you can rely on as it is a card you brag about winning with after the fact.
Yeah, she loses to infinite creatures + goblin bombardment. What an awful card. She only beats that combo if they don't have the singleton bombardment out, oh woe is avacyn.
She's awkward, expensive, and vulnerable. It's not so much a card you can rely on as it is a card you brag about winning with after the fact.
There's nothing really awkward about her. You play her, you get an easy 5 damage in every time an opponent doesn't have a large flying blocker.
She's not particularly vulnerable, as this is the format where you already typically run creature protection to protect your general. lightning greaves and swiftfoot boots are in almost every deck.
She can be laid down on the board and, if you have 7 untapped mana, you won't be dying to any one shot kill effects until she dies.
I guess the argument against her is that you can't use her for an infinite combo, but I don't play or play against combo decks in EDH.
There's nothing really awkward about her. You play her, you get an easy 5 damage in every time an opponent doesn't have a large flying blocker.
She's not particularly vulnerable, as this is the format where you already typically run creature protection to protect your general. lightning greaves and swiftfoot boots are in almost every deck.
She can be laid down on the board and, if you have 7 untapped mana, you won't be dying to any one shot kill effects until she dies.
I guess the argument against her is that you can't use her for an infinite combo, but I don't play or play against combo decks in EDH.
The argument against her is that it costs 12 mana to play her and use her ability once before the next untap step. If you're mono white that's not a trivial amount to get to. If you're not mono white, why is this card in your 99? She's very efficient at 2WWW but this isn't limited. Simply being efficient doesn't mean much if she can't stay on board and she explicitly can't protect herself. Just saying "put Greaves on her" is like saying a creature dies to Doom Blade; it doesn't address the card's strengths and weaknesses. If your opponents can't handle her second ability they'll prepare for when she comes down. If they can handle her second ability they'll ignore her and kill you anyway.
Maybe she'll find a place in pillowfort decks but, again, 12 mana for one turn isn't minor. There are better things to be doing with those kinds of resources, even in a defensive deck.
There's nothing really awkward about her. You play her, you get an easy 5 damage in every time an opponent doesn't have a large flying blocker.
She's not particularly vulnerable, as this is the format where you already typically run creature protection to protect your general. lightning greaves and swiftfoot boots are in almost every deck.
She can be laid down on the board and, if you have 7 untapped mana, you won't be dying to any one shot kill effects until she dies.
I guess the argument against her is that you can't use her for an infinite combo, but I don't play or play against combo decks in EDH.
The argument against her is that it costs 12 mana to play her and use her ability once before the next untap step. If you're mono white that's not a trivial amount to get to. If you're not mono white, why is this card in your 99? She's very efficient at 2WWW but this isn't limited. Simply being efficient doesn't mean much if she can't stay on board and she explicitly can't protect herself. Just saying "put Greaves on her" is like saying a creature dies to Doom Blade; it doesn't address the card's strengths and weaknesses. If your opponents can't handle her second ability they'll prepare for when she comes down. If they can handle her second ability they'll ignore her and kill you anyway.
Maybe she'll find a place in pillowfort decks but, again, 12 mana for one turn isn't minor. There are better things to be doing with those kinds of resources, even in a defensive deck.
She's a 5 drop. You don't wait until you have 12 mana to play her. You drop her whenever you don't have a better play, then just swing her at people for free to make use of vigilance + evasion.
Yes, she can't protect herself, but most edh decks run cards already that can protect her from targeted removal, like the boots, or swords, or glory, or any number of white's various protection spells. It's not the most crippling weakness. I find most removal in edh comes from board wipes anyways, which just about every creature in the game dies to.
If they can't handle the second ability, then they are losing. You can't just shrug that off as if it's nothing. "Sure I can't hurt you, but if I get lucky draws I might win!"
It's not like you can just win after avacyn dies either, you have a deck just like your opponent.
She's a 5 drop. You don't wait until you have 12 mana to play her. You drop her whenever you don't have a better play, then just swing her at people for free to make use of vigilance + evasion.
Yes, she can't protect herself, but most edh decks run cards already that can protect her from targeted removal, like the boots, or swords, or glory, or any number of white's various protection spells. It's not the most crippling weakness. I find most removal in edh comes from board wipes anyways, which just about every creature in the game dies to.
If they can't handle the second ability, then they are losing. You can't just shrug that off as if it's nothing. "Sure I can't hurt you, but if I get lucky draws I might win!"
It's not like you can just win after avacyn dies either, you have a deck just like your opponent.
If you don't wait until you have 12 mana then you're just playing an efficient flyer that will die before her abilities become relevant. If you're not utilizing her abilities you can spend your mana better than 5+X on her as a general. Yes, you can use other cards to protect her, or you can use those defensive cards to protect creatures less mana intensive or more immediately relevant to self protection. Her second ability only means something when you can pour enough mana into her while still being able to perform meaningful actions on your turn. If other people at the table will have problems with that situation they won't let you get to that point.
She's a 5 drop. You don't wait until you have 12 mana to play her. You drop her whenever you don't have a better play, then just swing her at people for free to make use of vigilance + evasion.
Yes, she can't protect herself, but most edh decks run cards already that can protect her from targeted removal, like the boots, or swords, or glory, or any number of white's various protection spells. It's not the most crippling weakness. I find most removal in edh comes from board wipes anyways, which just about every creature in the game dies to.
If they can't handle the second ability, then they are losing. You can't just shrug that off as if it's nothing. "Sure I can't hurt you, but if I get lucky draws I might win!"
It's not like you can just win after avacyn dies either, you have a deck just like your opponent.
If you don't wait until you have 12 mana then you're just playing an efficient flyer that will die before her abilities become relevant. If you're not utilizing her abilities you can spend your mana better than 5+X on her as a general. Yes, you can use other cards to protect her, or you can use those defensive cards to protect creatures less mana intensive or more immediately relevant to self protection. Her second ability only means something when you can pour enough mana into her while still being able to perform meaningful actions on your turn. If other people at the table will have problems with that situation they won't let you get to that point.
Angel tribal! She'd be fine in angel tribal.
I never said she would even be the general.
Your argument seems to be that the things she does have counters. Of course they do? So does everything.
She's an evasive beater that can still block while attacking, which is great in multiplayer.
She can protect your other creatures, making attacking you look less attractive. Great in multiplayer.
She can negate an infinite amount of damage with her expensive ability, again making it less attractive to use that stuff on you. Great in multiplayer.
Everything about her is efficient. She's got great P/T and pure upside abilities.
Deflecting your opponents is incredibly valuable in multiplayer. It turns your enemy's resources against your other enemies. It's like saying no mercy is a weak card because the whole table will just fling all of their creatures at you until you die. It's not how it works out in practice.
Your argument seems to be that the things she does have counters. Of course they do? So does everything.
She's an evasive beater that can still block while attacking, which is great in multiplayer.
She can protect your other creatures, making attacking you look less attractive. Great in multiplayer.
She can negate an infinite amount of damage with her expensive ability, again making it less attractive to use that stuff on you. Great in multiplayer.
Everything about her is efficient. She's got great P/T and pure upside abilities.
Deflecting your opponents is incredibly valuable in multiplayer. It turns your enemy's resources against your other enemies. It's like saying no mercy is a weak card because the whole table will just fling all of their creatures at you until you die. It's not how it works out in practice.
My argument isn't that she has counters. It's that she requires too much mana for most decks to be more than an efficient 5/4. And I've already said that she could potentially be fine in a pillowfort decklist. That she's high-visibility and needs extra support to negate that so she can do anything is just another dollop of sadness.
No Mercy is a solid card because it's working from the moment it comes down without further maintenance. This Avacyn requires much more than that.
We're talking EDH. That was one of a wide variety of options to deal with her. The original Avacyn protected herself. This one does not. That's not to say that creatures that don't protect themselves are bad, but that she's worse than the previous incarnation, and that there are less mana intensive ways to do what she does.
I disagree about how high visibility Avacyn is. Her abilities aren't nearly as devastating as her previous version and as a result, I see her getting underestimated time and time again.
You sorta can't win this argument. The weaker she appears, the more of a potential sleeper she is.
I picked up a Jalira, Master Polymorphist at the pre-release and built a deck around her. Got to say, using her to polymorph an Omenspeaker into It That Betrays was kinda nice; so was turning an Ornithopter into a Stormtide Leviathan. Tried to put in as much scrying and library manipulation as I could to try and control the polymorphing, but having dudes that work on both ends of her ability are great.
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A polite player might call my card choices "interesting." At my budget, "interesting" is the only option.
Avacyn is just the latest Mother of Runes variant (not as strong as the original). The 5/4 flying vigilance body is worth 4.5 mana, the other effects maybe make her OK overall.
I expect most decks that want a 5 mana white flier will prefer Baneslayer, but she isn't terrible.
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White:
Heliod's pilgrim - Replaces itself and fetches any aura, which can be combo pieces like bear umbra or curiosity or powerhouses like eldrazi conscription. Naturally, not a general staple but good in the decks that actually run auras like bruna, light of alabaster and uril, the miststalker
avacyn, guardian angel - Vigilance is awesome in multiplayer, and when you are sitting on 7 untapped mana it's almost never worth attacking you, so your opponents hopefully kill eachother
hushwing gryff - Stops so much, while you can build around it not stopping your own stuff
Blue:
aether whirlwind - Instant speed mass protection is good.
chasm skulker - Comes down early and can get ridiculously large. I mention this mainly because nekusar, the mindrazer is so popular.
Black:
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled - The anti-tutor is nice, and his creature's dying ability can make him quite large in multiplayer.
Soul of innistrad - I actually really like this effect more than the others for the more drawn out EDH games, the equivalent of drawing 3 threats for 5 mana is quite strong in my eyes.
waste not - This thing is pure blowouts. Make 3 people discard their hands, get a million mana, creatures, and cards.
Red:
burning anger - Those things like lord of extinction can suddenly kill without even attacking
Green:
Nissa, worldwaker - Planeswalkers are generally not the best in EDH, but 5 mana for 4 mana worth of ramp can go from T5 nissa T6 win with 10 mana
phytotitan - A fire an forget defensive creature that can do great things with cards like greater good
Multicolor:
None
Arfitacts:
Obelisk of urd - Lots of power very fast for any tribal deck or ridiculous generals like prossh, skyraider of kher
Perilous vault - Generic board wipe similar to the already staple oblivion stone
Soul of new phyrexia - A little questionable( only really good if ahead ), but I have to imagine it's a worthy include in many decks for the boardwipe protection.
What do you guys think are the good EDH cards in the set?
I like Ob Nixxilis, Unshackled in control.
I really love Hushwing Gryff, I hope they print more and more of these effects. Activated ability on a land anyone?
I'm interested in testing Chasm Skulker out in stax, could be bad, could be great.
I'm cooking up some stuff to abuse Chief Engineer with, it is however, not as broken as I hoped.
Necromancer's Stockpile is lots of fun, probably going to see play.
Life's Legacy is great card draw for stompy decks. I don't play these though.
Return to the Ranks will have some niche applications, either way, lots of fun as well.
I'm still thanking the gods for Aggresive Mining. Lovely design!
Edit: This would be a better thread if placed in commander sub-forum though.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Soul of Theros
Return to the Ranks
Resolute Archangel
Ajani Steadfast
Blue
Chief Engineer
Jalira, Master Polymorphist
Mercurial Pretender
Master of Predicaments
Green
Yisan, Wandering Bard
Genesis Hydra
Soul of Zendikar
Black
In Garruk's Wake
Soul of Innistrad
Red
Goblin Kaboomist
Generator Servant
Aggressive Mining
Goblin Rabblemaster
Might Makes Right
Soul of Shandalar
WUBRG
Sliver Hivelord
GB
Garruk, Apex Predator
Colorless
Hot Soup
Shield of the Avatar
Resolute Archangel: Seems particularly good in a blink deck.
Chief Engineer: Seems very abusable.
Reclamation Sage: Can destroy a lot of good things for cheap and holds the Reveillark seal of approval.
Sliver Hivelord and Sliver Hive for any 5-colour sliver deck.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
The person who forces avacyn's 7 mana ability typically has to make themselves completely vulnerable to do it.
If you're talking about multiple players teaming up on one, then yes, of course you will fall behind. Not falling behind means that there is some horrible power difference between decks at the table.
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
Yeah, she loses to infinite creatures + goblin bombardment. What an awful card. She only beats that combo if they don't have the singleton bombardment out, oh woe is avacyn.
Perilous Vault - fills the same colourless reset role as O-Stone, Nevy's Disk and All is Dust.
In Garruk's Wake - same black blowout sorcery style card as Plague Wind with an extra upside.
Those 2 will generically see play in a lot of decks since they fill a common necessary roll and add redundancy to similar cards.
Everything else is less obvious and pretty much comes down to a deck by deck analysis - Sliver Hive and Hivelord are obvious inclusions for a Sliver deck, Nissa and Genesis Hydra make for nice Green/x ramp deck additions and so on.
Probably my favorite new EDH card (not that i've got a deck for it at the moment) is Soul of Innistrad, which is a lot of good grindy value, a decent amount of combo potential and has the graveyard ability which is a nice restock in the mid-late game. It also fills that perfect position of being strong while hopefully not being the most threatening/best target creature on the board.
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White (Selvala):
Heliod's Pilgrim- Another tutor for Auras besides Academy Rector, Enlightened Tutor, and Sterling Grove. It's better than a lot of the other options for fetching enchantments, but not super-exciting
Boonweaver Giant- Between Land Tax, Tithe, Knight of the Reliquary, and all of the green ramp I run, this guy seems worth the price tag. I've been looking for curve-toppers anyway. Being only a 4/4 isn't great though.
Hushwing Gryff- is certainly not a card I will be playing in any of my EDH decks. I'm one of those guys who loves ETB effects
Return to the Ranks- Most of the creatures in this deck cost 2 or less. I always have lots of mana available, and this plays quite well with Mentor of the Meek
Spirit Bonds- As an enchantress deck, this seems right up my alley. Not only is it an enchantment that plays well with the rest of my deck, it is another card that helps protect the creatures that I voltron up with Auras. This has almost a guaranteed spot in my deck, especially since it's so aggressively costed
Blue (Arcanis)-
Quickling- I run quite a few ETB effects and manlands. I wish it was a 3/3, but this thing might be tricky enough for me to want to play it.
Ætherspouts- This looks like an all-star to me. Awesome tempo play, and a pretty sweet political tool
Chasm Skulker- I draw a LOT of cards. This seems like a nice curve-filler that can potentially win games by itself.
Jace, the Living Guildpact- Not a huge fan of this Jace, but I feel like I'll run him just for the -3
Master of Predicaments- I love this card so much. This is an auto-include, and I don't even need to test it. Playing mind-games with my opponent is the whole reason I'm playing this Arcanis deck, and this is the mind-gameist of all
Mercurial Pretender- Utter trash. I just wanted to spotlight this card and how terrible the "you control" clause is. Why on earth would you ever run this over any of the other amazing clone effects unless you had some kind of combo you could set up with the bounce ability (I don't)?
Military Intelligence- I'm not sure I have room for this effect, but it essentially plays as a one-sided Howling Mine in my deck which is nice
Black (Glissa):
Endless Obedience- I don't think this makes the cut over any of my other reanimator effects. Reanimate and Unearth are the only ones I'm running that aren't attach to creatures. Both of those are vastly superior to this card. I might give it a shot though, since I do often have a board full of creatures to convoke
In Garruk's Wake- I might be at my critical mass of sweepers (Plague Boiler, Damnation, Pernicious Deed, Oblivion Stone, and Living Death), and I'm not currently running Plague Wind so I doubt the planeswalker clause is enough to get me to run this. I've definitely got the mana for it, and it is another answer for Karn Liberated though.
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled- I just want to point out how hard this card wrecks my deck. I search my library at least once per turn, usually more often than that. If you run this card, I will immediately focus every ounce of power I have to destroy you. So much worse than Aven Mindcensor, because at least that isn't a threat
Soul of Innistrad- Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of this card. However, I can't see it replacing any of my six-drops (currently Wurmcoil Engine, Massacre Wurm, Brutalizer Exarch, Visara the Dreadful, and Harvester of Souls). Even if it could, I'm pretty sure I'd be squeezing in Grave Titan first
Waste Not- Doesn't currently do much in my deck. I just want to point out how amazing this would be in a multiplayer game with Memory Jar. In magical christmas land, where I have Glissa, this, and the jar in play at the same time....
Red (Krenko):
Act on Impulse- Considering this deck is half goblins, and most of them cost 2 or less, this card seems like a no-brainer
Aggressive Mining- I'm very intently considering running this card. This deck's biggest problem is running out of gas, and turning excess land into cards is pretty sweet. If you could use the ability more than once per turn it would be an auto-include. However, the fact that I would also need to run ways to get rid of it (Claws of Gix or something) makes it less appealing.
Generator Servant- this card would purely be used to give Krenko haste. I've already got a few ways to do that, but giving him haste makes him SO much more powerful
Goblin Kaboomist- seems like a no-brainer. I'm certainly running worse goblins right now, and with a Goblin King or other Lord effect down, this guy becomes quite good
Goblin Rabblemaster- A goblin that makes more goblins and encourages you to blindly attack every turn? Yup, you're in
Krenko's Enforcer- Costs 3 only 2 power and no utility...I will certainly not be playing it
Paragon of Fierce Defiance- I can get behind this. Another Lord effect, and gives Krenko haste? Actually a very exciting card
Green (Glissa, Selvala):
Genesis Hydra- More likely to run this than Genesis Wave in Glissa, but not likely enough for it to make the cut since it doesn't play well with Birthing Pod, Hibernation's End, Chord of Calling, or Green Sun's Zenith
Nissa, Worldwaker- Selvala is all over this card. Glissa doesn't really need the effect
Reclamation Sage- Nothing to not like about this card, will probably make it into both decks
Sunblade Elf- Selvala will love this card. I've been running Wild Nacatl anyway, and this is just better
Gold:
Garruk, Apex Predator- This card might make it into Glissa at some point, but there's no guarantee. It seems like it could either be really good or a waste of 7 mana
Artifact:
Obelisk of Urd- Seems like it has a place in Krenko. Not the most exciting thing, but I can convoke it out easily enough and it makes me threaten lethal that much faster
Perilous Vault- Arcanis will probably like this card. None of my other decks want it though. Glissa would much rather have Oblivion Stone, since I have so much recursion
There are some other cards that look interesting, just not so much for me.
She's awkward, expensive, and vulnerable. It's not so much a card you can rely on as it is a card you brag about winning with after the fact.
There's nothing really awkward about her. You play her, you get an easy 5 damage in every time an opponent doesn't have a large flying blocker.
She's not particularly vulnerable, as this is the format where you already typically run creature protection to protect your general. lightning greaves and swiftfoot boots are in almost every deck.
She can be laid down on the board and, if you have 7 untapped mana, you won't be dying to any one shot kill effects until she dies.
I guess the argument against her is that you can't use her for an infinite combo, but I don't play or play against combo decks in EDH.
The argument against her is that it costs 12 mana to play her and use her ability once before the next untap step. If you're mono white that's not a trivial amount to get to. If you're not mono white, why is this card in your 99? She's very efficient at 2WWW but this isn't limited. Simply being efficient doesn't mean much if she can't stay on board and she explicitly can't protect herself. Just saying "put Greaves on her" is like saying a creature dies to Doom Blade; it doesn't address the card's strengths and weaknesses. If your opponents can't handle her second ability they'll prepare for when she comes down. If they can handle her second ability they'll ignore her and kill you anyway.
Maybe she'll find a place in pillowfort decks but, again, 12 mana for one turn isn't minor. There are better things to be doing with those kinds of resources, even in a defensive deck.
She's a 5 drop. You don't wait until you have 12 mana to play her. You drop her whenever you don't have a better play, then just swing her at people for free to make use of vigilance + evasion.
Yes, she can't protect herself, but most edh decks run cards already that can protect her from targeted removal, like the boots, or swords, or glory, or any number of white's various protection spells. It's not the most crippling weakness. I find most removal in edh comes from board wipes anyways, which just about every creature in the game dies to.
If they can't handle the second ability, then they are losing. You can't just shrug that off as if it's nothing. "Sure I can't hurt you, but if I get lucky draws I might win!"
It's not like you can just win after avacyn dies either, you have a deck just like your opponent.
If you don't wait until you have 12 mana then you're just playing an efficient flyer that will die before her abilities become relevant. If you're not utilizing her abilities you can spend your mana better than 5+X on her as a general. Yes, you can use other cards to protect her, or you can use those defensive cards to protect creatures less mana intensive or more immediately relevant to self protection. Her second ability only means something when you can pour enough mana into her while still being able to perform meaningful actions on your turn. If other people at the table will have problems with that situation they won't let you get to that point.
Angel tribal! She'd be fine in angel tribal.
I never said she would even be the general.
Your argument seems to be that the things she does have counters. Of course they do? So does everything.
She's an evasive beater that can still block while attacking, which is great in multiplayer.
She can protect your other creatures, making attacking you look less attractive. Great in multiplayer.
She can negate an infinite amount of damage with her expensive ability, again making it less attractive to use that stuff on you. Great in multiplayer.
Everything about her is efficient. She's got great P/T and pure upside abilities.
Deflecting your opponents is incredibly valuable in multiplayer. It turns your enemy's resources against your other enemies. It's like saying no mercy is a weak card because the whole table will just fling all of their creatures at you until you die. It's not how it works out in practice.
My argument isn't that she has counters. It's that she requires too much mana for most decks to be more than an efficient 5/4. And I've already said that she could potentially be fine in a pillowfort decklist. That she's high-visibility and needs extra support to negate that so she can do anything is just another dollop of sadness.
No Mercy is a solid card because it's working from the moment it comes down without further maintenance. This Avacyn requires much more than that.
Also, like half of the commons/uncommons seem playable to me, at least in a less-competitive environment.
Give Zaliki a CardI must have all the cats!
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
List one
List two (competitive)
Aside from Captain Kurk, I think Cruel Sadist could be good in decks that can dump counters on it, like Varolz, the Scar-Striped. Nissa's Expedition is a slightly more expensive Explosive Vegetation that can be convoked, and Polymorphist's Jest can disrupt creature-dependent combos.
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Club Flamingo Wins: 10
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EDH Decks
BG Vicious Varolz | RW Jor Kadeen, the Mean Machine | RG Atarka: Muh_Dragons.dec (WIP) | WU Brago, Blink Eternal (WIP)
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You sorta can't win this argument. The weaker she appears, the more of a potential sleeper she is.
I expect most decks that want a 5 mana white flier will prefer Baneslayer, but she isn't terrible.