Another point is that this Jace - as its written - is a "win more" card. It can help put you over the top if you're already winning, but does absolutely NOTHING to help you if you are losing. An overcosted Disperse will just not be enough.
Another point is that this Jace - as its written - is a "win more" card. It can help put you over the top if you're already winning, but does absolutely NOTHING to help you if you are losing. An overcosted Disperse will just not be enough.
He resembles an every-turn Scry + some Fogs, which starts looking like Ashiok against Big Elspeth and Mutavault, but at least is better than nothing.
In testing as Modern Blue Moon vs. Modern Jund, he actually helped win a game I was initially losing by Scrying for stallers (Cryptic Command, Batterskull, removal) and absorbing a lot of damage. He bounced a Goyf and later died, but I managed to get in enough Batterskull hits later to win.
So, imho, I don't really like the card, and mainly because I'm used to Jace as a strictly control card. I like playing control. In fact, I LOOOOOOVE control. However, I not only understand, but agree with the idea that this is an innovative new type of Jace, and a very different one from what we're used to seeing, and so it should e since he's currently and recently the Living Guildpact as stated. The +1 will be extremely relevant if there's some type of viable way to use the graveyard(possibly a Esper Reanimate?), otherwise it's weak card advantage. And yes, it's still advantage, and I'd be happy to explain the numbers behind it not putting cards in hand and still being an advantage. Either way you're still digging 2 cards, and setting up your next draw, and we all know how much blue can draw, it's just rather unfortunate that our big blue buddy needs help putting cards in your hand. I, and I know I'm repeating myself, hope that this is a "Graveyard is your second hand" type of function. -3 is fair costed for Disperse on a stick. Mind Sculptor's -1 Unsummon on a stick is incredibly over-efficient. The ult is Timetwister, and since the +1 puts cards in the yard, and on turn 4 without ramp ends the turn at 6, he only needs a few turns to drop a Power 9 ability, one in which usually helps the person who activated it......most of the time. It's an interesting new take on a Blue walker, and overall I think it's risky, but it may actually work, even if that's a archetype specific value. All that being said, I don't necessarily want to use it, but I think it's the right direction for Jace. Here's hoping there's a better monoblue walker in Khans for what I'm looking for.
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I definitely agree with you on all this! And you helped me find a good way to describe how I see this card... Subtle. It's subtlety makes for an elegant design and complex gameplay also.
There's nothing even moderately complex about his effect on a game.
So, imho, I don't really like the card, and mainly because I'm used to Jace as a strictly control card. I like playing control. In fact, I LOOOOOOVE control. However, I not only understand, but agree with the idea that this is an innovative new type of Jace, and a very different one from what we're used to seeing, and so it should e since he's currently and recently the Living Guildpact as stated. The +1 will be extremely relevant if there's some type of viable way to use the graveyard(possibly a Esper Reanimate?), otherwise it's weak card advantage. And yes, it's still advantage, and I'd be happy to explain the numbers behind it not putting cards in hand and still being an advantage. Either way you're still digging 2 cards, and setting up your next draw, and we all know how much blue can draw, it's just rather unfortunate that our big blue buddy needs help putting cards in your hand. I, and I know I'm repeating myself, hope that this is a "Graveyard is your second hand" type of function. -3 is fair costed for Disperse on a stick. Mind Sculptor's -1 Unsummon on a stick is incredibly over-efficient. The ult is Timetwister, and since the +1 puts cards in the yard, and on turn 4 without ramp ends the turn at 6, he only needs a few turns to drop a Power 9 ability, one in which usually helps the person who activated it......most of the time. It's an interesting new take on a Blue walker, and overall I think it's risky, but it may actually work, even if that's a archetype specific value. All that being said, I don't necessarily want to use it, but I think it's the right direction for Jace. Here's hoping there's a better monoblue walker in Khans for what I'm looking for.
Just pointing out that Jace's -3 is actually Void Snare, not Disperse, which means that it is overcosted.
Ok, excuse me. Void Snare, since it's Sorcery Speed. The Rules Text is the same, the only difference is speed. It's still on a stick. It's still in standard. It's still Blue style removal. It's not overcosted because it's not -2.....................
Scratch that after seeing -2, yeah that would have been much more fairly costed. Touche, sir, Touche. Lol.
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Didn't mention anything about his effect on the game. I meant that knowing how to use/play him and fitting him into the right deck is going to add some complexities.
Loyalty costs aren't just based on the strength of the ability, they're based on the starting loyalty. Both this jace and JTMS bounce with their -3 and -1 respectively. The key here is that they both end the turn with 2 loyalty. The fact that he can't activate twice in a row like JTMS is offset by being able to target nonland permanents. In standard that means he can hit targets like underworld connections and detention sphere. I'd say the ability is appropriately costed considering what you get.
-2 would still put him in Lighting Bolt/Strike range. Any Aggro deck can easily have 3 power on the board by turn 4.
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If there's a better reanimator spell coming in standard, that deck will use him. BUG reanimator seems possible, with Rescue from the underworld and Sylvain carytid, just need a beater, really.
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So, imho, I don't really like the card, and mainly because I'm used to Jace as a strictly control card. I like playing control. In fact, I LOOOOOOVE control. However, I not only understand, but agree with the idea that this is an innovative new type of Jace, and a very different one from what we're used to seeing, and so it should e since he's currently and recently the Living Guildpact as stated. The +1 will be extremely relevant if there's some type of viable way to use the graveyard(possibly a Esper Reanimate?), otherwise it's weak card advantage. And yes, it's still advantage, and I'd be happy to explain the numbers behind it not putting cards in hand and still being an advantage. Either way you're still digging 2 cards, and setting up your next draw, and we all know how much blue can draw, it's just rather unfortunate that our big blue buddy needs help putting cards in your hand. I, and I know I'm repeating myself, hope that this is a "Graveyard is your second hand" type of function. -3 is fair costed for Disperse on a stick. Mind Sculptor's -1 Unsummon on a stick is incredibly over-efficient. The ult is Timetwister, and since the +1 puts cards in the yard, and on turn 4 without ramp ends the turn at 6, he only needs a few turns to drop a Power 9 ability, one in which usually helps the person who activated it......most of the time. It's an interesting new take on a Blue walker, and overall I think it's risky, but it may actually work, even if that's a archetype specific value. All that being said, I don't necessarily want to use it, but I think it's the right direction for Jace. Here's hoping there's a better monoblue walker in Khans for what I'm looking for.
I think the ultimate is close in power to that of JtMS - both strip your opponent's hand completely, JtMS provides a clock (usually 2-3 turns), and JtLG gives you seven cards to serve as a clock. Of course JtLG is not on par at all with JtMS as an overall card, but this is still one of the most powerful ultimates out there.
Had JtLG's second ability been better, this card would see play. It still might.
So, imho, I don't really like the card, and mainly because I'm used to Jace as a strictly control card. I like playing control. In fact, I LOOOOOOVE control. However, I not only understand, but agree with the idea that this is an innovative new type of Jace, and a very different one from what we're used to seeing, and so it should e since he's currently and recently the Living Guildpact as stated. The +1 will be extremely relevant if there's some type of viable way to use the graveyard(possibly a Esper Reanimate?), otherwise it's weak card advantage. And yes, it's still advantage, and I'd be happy to explain the numbers behind it not putting cards in hand and still being an advantage. Either way you're still digging 2 cards, and setting up your next draw, and we all know how much blue can draw, it's just rather unfortunate that our big blue buddy needs help putting cards in your hand. I, and I know I'm repeating myself, hope that this is a "Graveyard is your second hand" type of function. -3 is fair costed for Disperse on a stick. Mind Sculptor's -1 Unsummon on a stick is incredibly over-efficient. The ult is Timetwister, and since the +1 puts cards in the yard, and on turn 4 without ramp ends the turn at 6, he only needs a few turns to drop a Power 9 ability, one in which usually helps the person who activated it......most of the time. It's an interesting new take on a Blue walker, and overall I think it's risky, but it may actually work, even if that's a archetype specific value. All that being said, I don't necessarily want to use it, but I think it's the right direction for Jace. Here's hoping there's a better monoblue walker in Khans for what I'm looking for.
I think the ultimate is close in power to that of JtMS - both strip your opponent's hand completely, JtMS provides a clock (usually 2-3 turns), and JtLG gives you seven cards to serve as a clock. Of course JtLG is not on par at all with JtMS as an overall card, but this is still one of the most powerful ultimates out there.
Had JtLG's second ability been better, this card would see play. It still might.
Okay, IO was pretty sure, but I reread it anyway, and yeah, you're incredibly inaccurate. If you split it into two cards, it's Timetwister for you and the third option on Primal Command for them. In short, TImetwister, but they don't draw. No where near a Sphinx's Rev, since no one is gaining life, THAT spell would be Stroke of Genius. Identity Crisis and Tormod's Crypt both exile, this Jace ult doesn't exile anything. You can't just draw into something later that is exiled, if it's shuffled back in, it isn't exiled, it could very well end up back at the top of their Library. BTW, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is the one who Ult's for Identity Crisis....(EDIT:Unless you are in a multiplayer game, then it's copied for each opponent, and either way, without targetting anything)
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So, imho, I don't really like the card, and mainly because I'm used to Jace as a strictly control card. I like playing control. In fact, I LOOOOOOVE control. However, I not only understand, but agree with the idea that this is an innovative new type of Jace, and a very different one from what we're used to seeing, and so it should e since he's currently and recently the Living Guildpact as stated. The +1 will be extremely relevant if there's some type of viable way to use the graveyard(possibly a Esper Reanimate?), otherwise it's weak card advantage. And yes, it's still advantage, and I'd be happy to explain the numbers behind it not putting cards in hand and still being an advantage. Either way you're still digging 2 cards, and setting up your next draw, and we all know how much blue can draw, it's just rather unfortunate that our big blue buddy needs help putting cards in your hand. I, and I know I'm repeating myself, hope that this is a "Graveyard is your second hand" type of function. -3 is fair costed for Disperse on a stick. Mind Sculptor's -1 Unsummon on a stick is incredibly over-efficient. The ult is Timetwister, and since the +1 puts cards in the yard, and on turn 4 without ramp ends the turn at 6, he only needs a few turns to drop a Power 9 ability, one in which usually helps the person who activated it......most of the time. It's an interesting new take on a Blue walker, and overall I think it's risky, but it may actually work, even if that's a archetype specific value. All that being said, I don't necessarily want to use it, but I think it's the right direction for Jace. Here's hoping there's a better monoblue walker in Khans for what I'm looking for.
I think the ultimate is close in power to that of JtMS - both strip your opponent's hand completely, JtMS provides a clock (usually 2-3 turns), and JtLG gives you seven cards to serve as a clock. Of course JtLG is not on par at all with JtMS as an overall card, but this is still one of the most powerful ultimates out there.
Had JtLG's second ability been better, this card would see play. It still might.
Okay, IO was pretty sure, but I reread it anyway, and yeah, you're incredibly inaccurate. If you split it into two cards, it's Timetwister for you and the third option on Primal Command for them. In short, TImetwister, but they don't draw. No where near a Sphinx's Rev, since no one is gaining life, THAT spell would be Stroke of Genius. Identity Crisis and Tormod's Crypt both exile, this Jace ult doesn't exile anything. You can't just draw into something later that is exiled, if it's shuffled back in, it isn't exiled, it could very well end up back at the top of their Library. BTW, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is the one who Ult's for Identity Crisis....
Tucking your opponent's cards is as good as exiling them. It obliterates their hand and graveyard - who cares which zone the cards go to, they aren't coming back. Hence the Identity Crisis comparison - both take the opponent's hand and graveyard, and put them in zones where they are no longer relevant, they just use different zones.
Comparing it to Timetwister is just off the planet wrong - if you cast Timetwister and do not win the game that turn you usually lose because your opponent has 7 cards and a fair bit of mana. If you ultimate JtLG and don't win that turn, you're still going to win 95% of the time, because your opponent has no hand and (if they use their graveyard as a resource at all) no graveyard.
Of course it doesn't gain life, Revelation is still 90% about the mass card draw anyway. Opportunity, Stroke, Blue Sun's Zenith, Sphinx's Revelation - all of these are mass card draw spells, some just do small other things as well.
Thing about a lot of people on this website, is that if a vast majority says a card is bad, they will say it is good, vice versa, just to look smart in the long run. Read Jace as he is, with no comments.
I'll Score him, in considering the cards at this moment. You can not say stuff about Khans for him now, because for all we know, Khans will just make him terrible or great, we can't know yet, so we have to rate him how good he is NOW.
CMC is 4, and 4 is usually what you want want to spend on a walker, and right now he is fighting for a spot at AOT and kiora, both of which can draw you cards on the spot, unlike this one. But he does come in with 5, which is pretty good, but, would you rather cast AOT or this jace? Be honest.
+1- this right now does almost nothing, it draws nothing, you can not even send the cards to the bottem if you do not want them, you are stuck with them, why do you think Index is
terrible, you draw nothing that's why. I would rather scry one then "dig 2" -3 you are paying 4 mana for a 1 mana spell. very over costed. compare it to kiora's +1 they both stop, usually a creature, but her's is a +, while his is a minus, you can't even do twice in a row. You can compare it to vraska's minus, and her's destroys the thing. Yes she is 1 mana more, and jace gets a little bit more for being 4, but almost always destroy > bounce -8 The thing everyone who likes this jace is talking about, in reality this ult. is a trap. Sure it draws you 7, and gets rid of their hand, but you people are living in magical Christmas land, where you can ultimate planeswalkers, ulting planeswalkers rarely happens, and more so on this one, where you want to minus more than plus. If you plus for 3 turns, you accomplished not much, especially for his CMC. Also look at there other 2 walkers ults, kiora gets you a giant creature everyturn, and AOT gets you aetherling and Elspeth, when you look at TLGP's ult in compared to theirs, it just seems weak.
One last thing, compare this jace to the couple walkers who never saw much, if any standard play in the last 2 years Gideon, Liliana, and Ral. Gideon gets a TON of loyalty and can threaten to one shot your opponent. Liliana is a kill spell, that makes you never miss land drops. and Ral zerek Bolts. All these walkers do things to the board to an extent, way harder than this Jace does, he can Bounce ONCE then do nothing for 2 turns. These 3 walkers are terrible for standard, but they do more than Jace, they tells you how good he is.
This jace is fighting for way too many spots in any deck that would even consider playing him.
Well take that what you will, believe me or not, just stop blinding hyping or defending cards, without REALLY reading them.
+1- this right now does almost nothing, it draws nothing, you can not even send the cards to the bottem if you do not want them, you are stuck with them, why do you think Index is
terrible, you draw nothing that's why. I would rather scry one then "dig 2"
You do understand that scry 1 is worse than Jace's +1 in almost every possible situation, right?
One deck I feel that Jace 5 could fit in is Turbo Land where you can 1) Dump lands and play them from graveyard via Crucible of Worlds, 2) Dump Gaea's Blessing into graveyard to recycle cards, 3) Recycle your graveyard into library and get 7 new cards, and 4) Deal with permanents that slip through counterspells. However, Turbo Land deck is probably not going to use its 4cc spot for Jace when Cryptic Command is the better choice.
So, imho, I don't really like the card, and mainly because I'm used to Jace as a strictly control card. I like playing control. In fact, I LOOOOOOVE control. However, I not only understand, but agree with the idea that this is an innovative new type of Jace, and a very different one from what we're used to seeing, and so it should e since he's currently and recently the Living Guildpact as stated. The +1 will be extremely relevant if there's some type of viable way to use the graveyard(possibly a Esper Reanimate?), otherwise it's weak card advantage. And yes, it's still advantage, and I'd be happy to explain the numbers behind it not putting cards in hand and still being an advantage. Either way you're still digging 2 cards, and setting up your next draw, and we all know how much blue can draw, it's just rather unfortunate that our big blue buddy needs help putting cards in your hand. I, and I know I'm repeating myself, hope that this is a "Graveyard is your second hand" type of function. -3 is fair costed for Disperse on a stick. Mind Sculptor's -1 Unsummon on a stick is incredibly over-efficient. The ult is Timetwister, and since the +1 puts cards in the yard, and on turn 4 without ramp ends the turn at 6, he only needs a few turns to drop a Power 9 ability, one in which usually helps the person who activated it......most of the time. It's an interesting new take on a Blue walker, and overall I think it's risky, but it may actually work, even if that's a archetype specific value. All that being said, I don't necessarily want to use it, but I think it's the right direction for Jace. Here's hoping there's a better monoblue walker in Khans for what I'm looking for.
I think the ultimate is close in power to that of JtMS - both strip your opponent's hand completely, JtMS provides a clock (usually 2-3 turns), and JtLG gives you seven cards to serve as a clock. Of course JtLG is not on par at all with JtMS as an overall card, but this is still one of the most powerful ultimates out there.
Had JtLG's second ability been better, this card would see play. It still might.
Okay, IO was pretty sure, but I reread it anyway, and yeah, you're incredibly inaccurate. If you split it into two cards, it's Timetwister for you and the third option on Primal Command for them. In short, TImetwister, but they don't draw. No where near a Sphinx's Rev, since no one is gaining life, THAT spell would be Stroke of Genius. Identity Crisis and Tormod's Crypt both exile, this Jace ult doesn't exile anything. You can't just draw into something later that is exiled, if it's shuffled back in, it isn't exiled, it could very well end up back at the top of their Library. BTW, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is the one who Ult's for Identity Crisis....
Tucking your opponent's cards is as good as exiling them. It obliterates their hand and graveyard - who cares which zone the cards go to, they aren't coming back. Hence the Identity Crisis comparison - both take the opponent's hand and graveyard, and put them in zones where they are no longer relevant, they just use different zones.
Comparing it to Timetwister is just off the planet wrong - if you cast Timetwister and do not win the game that turn you usually lose because your opponent has 7 cards and a fair bit of mana. If you ultimate JtLG and don't win that turn, you're still going to win 95% of the time, because your opponent has no hand and (if they use their graveyard as a resource at all) no graveyard.
Of course it doesn't gain life, Revelation is still 90% about the mass card draw anyway. Opportunity, Stroke, Blue Sun's Zenith, Sphinx's Revelation - all of these are mass card draw spells, some just do small other things as well.
So if Emrakul, the Eons Torn said "When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile Emrakul and your graveyard instead." would be the exact same thing?
Different Zones are different zones. With the exception of things like Runic Repetition and Misthollow Griffin thing can't be retrieved from exile. You retrieve things from your library every turn between your Upkeep and Pre-combat main phase, unless of course someone is playing things like Possessed Portal.
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So if Emrakul, the Eons Torn said "When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile Emrakul and your graveyard instead." would be the exact same thing?
Different Zones are different zones. With the exception of things like Runic Repetition and Misthollow Griffin thing can't be retrieved from exile. You retrieve things from your library every turn between your Upkeep and Pre-combat main phase, unless of course someone is playing things like Possessed Portal.
Please read the card again, until you realise what it does to the opponent. You are currently making a fool of yourself by ignoring the most important thing it does.
If you can't see the difference, here it is.
Primal Command your opponent, they still have cards in hand, but no graveyard. JtLG ultimate them, they now have no cards in hand (as well as no graveyard, if their deck cares about that). And because you have 7 cards to their zero they will almost never live long enough to draw more than one or two cards again, and you will have answers to almost anything they might draw.
The only time this is not close to an Identity Crisis is if the opponent's cards in library are significantly different to the cards in their hand and graveyard, which does not usually happen in Standard, but might in Modern (if you ultimate turn 8 and your opponent's graveyard is full of fetchlands) or in Legacy (where there is a lot more tutoring and one-ofs, meaning that there is a real difference between having 1 of a card in the library and having 0).
Even then those cases don't matter, because this card is not strong enough for Modern or Legacy. And in Standard, a tucked card is as gone as one in exile unless the game goes so long that it has a high chance to be redrawn naturally.
So if Emrakul, the Eons Torn said "When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile Emrakul and your graveyard instead." would be the exact same thing?
Different Zones are different zones. With the exception of things like Runic Repetition and Misthollow Griffin thing can't be retrieved from exile. You retrieve things from your library every turn between your Upkeep and Pre-combat main phase, unless of course someone is playing things like Possessed Portal.
Please read the card again, until you realise what it does to the opponent. You are currently making a fool of yourself by ignoring the most important thing it does.
If you can't see the difference, here it is.
Primal Command your opponent, they still have cards in hand, but no graveyard. JtLG ultimate them, they now have no cards in hand (as well as no graveyard, if their deck cares about that). And because you have 7 cards to their zero they will almost never live long enough to draw more than one or two cards again, and you will have answers to almost anything they might draw.
The only time this is not close to an Identity Crisis is if the opponent's cards in library are significantly different to the cards in their hand and graveyard, which does not usually happen in Standard, but might in Modern (if you ultimate turn 8 and your opponent's graveyard is full of fetchlands) or in Legacy (where there is a lot more tutoring and one-ofs, meaning that there is a real difference between having 1 of a card in the library and having 0).
Even then those cases don't matter, because this card is not strong enough for Modern or Legacy. And in Standard, a tucked card is as gone as one in exile unless the game goes so long that it has a high chance to be redrawn naturally.
Misread Primal Command. Still not the one making a fool of myself. I'll rephrase to "Ult is Timetwister, except your opponent doesn't get to draw". Either way, for you it's Timetwister. Is that exact enough for someone who thinks that, even in standard, Tucking into the library is the same as Exiled. You know, the format where people have been intentionally shuffling their graveyard into their library (Elixir of Immortality) just to draw(Sphinx's Revelation and reuse removal spells for over a year now. But yeah, it's ok, Exile and "shuffle into your library" is the same thing in Standard.
Different zones are different zones in all formats. Saying anything else is preposterous.
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My evaluation of the card:
Flavor: 1/10. This card is a HUGE flavor fail. You are telling the Living Guildpact can only use blue abilities? Thanks for wasting the name though Wizards!
Playability: 3/10 It's okay in limited, borderline playable in standard (of course will depend on what is in Khans), god-awful in EDH (he doesn't really do much in a format were you need big plays), shouldn't make the cut in Cubes, and you are joking if you are talking about any other format.
So if Emrakul, the Eons Torn said "When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile Emrakul and your graveyard instead." would be the exact same thing?
Different Zones are different zones. With the exception of things like Runic Repetition and Misthollow Griffin thing can't be retrieved from exile. You retrieve things from your library every turn between your Upkeep and Pre-combat main phase, unless of course someone is playing things like Possessed Portal.
Please read the card again, until you realise what it does to the opponent. You are currently making a fool of yourself by ignoring the most important thing it does.
If you can't see the difference, here it is.
Primal Command your opponent, they still have cards in hand, but no graveyard. JtLG ultimate them, they now have no cards in hand (as well as no graveyard, if their deck cares about that). And because you have 7 cards to their zero they will almost never live long enough to draw more than one or two cards again, and you will have answers to almost anything they might draw.
The only time this is not close to an Identity Crisis is if the opponent's cards in library are significantly different to the cards in their hand and graveyard, which does not usually happen in Standard, but might in Modern (if you ultimate turn 8 and your opponent's graveyard is full of fetchlands) or in Legacy (where there is a lot more tutoring and one-ofs, meaning that there is a real difference between having 1 of a card in the library and having 0).
Even then those cases don't matter, because this card is not strong enough for Modern or Legacy. And in Standard, a tucked card is as gone as one in exile unless the game goes so long that it has a high chance to be redrawn naturally.
Misread Primal Command. Still not the one making a fool of myself. I'll rephrase to "Ult is Timetwister, except your opponent doesn't get to draw". Either way, for you it's Timetwister. Is that exact enough for someone who thinks that, even in standard, Tucking into the library is the same as Exiled. You know, the format where people have been intentionally shuffling their graveyard into their library (Elixir of Immortality) just to draw(Sphinx's Revelation and reuse removal spells for over a year now. But yeah, it's ok, Exile and "shuffle into your library" is the same thing in Standard.
Different zones are different zones in all formats. Saying anything else is preposterous.
Elixir's shuffle effect matters because the game lasts at least 5-10 turns after you use Elixir, so increasing the percentage of business spells in your deck by shuffling 6 of them in matters, every game.
When you ultimate JtLG, your opponent *will never resolve another spell* unless they are playing uncounterable spells or you do something stupid. So unless your opponent plays relevant uncounterables, you do not care what they ever draw again. They will draw 2 more cards, maximum, in the game, and you will counter them all with your new grip of 7 cards and all the lands you drew.
Identity Crisis is a resource denial spell. JtLG's ultimate has *exactly the same* resource denial effect, while also pushing you up to 7 cards. The nuances of how it changes what your opponent might draw in future don't matter, because *your opponent will never resolve a spell again, because you just drew 7 cards, which means you have counters, card draw and will not miss land drops*.
Calling this 'Timetwister except the opponent doesn't draw' is technically true but so misleading it's useless. It's like calling Plague Wind 'Wrath of God except your guys don't die'. Yes that's true, but Plague Wind is a totally different card that serves a totally different purpose (or at least it would, except the effect is so inherenetly overpowered that for balance the card had to be given a mana cost that makes it unplayable in every format except kitchen table and the slowest limited formats, it's too slow even for ramp decks in EDH). Game states where you would want Plague Wind are usually game states where you do not want a Wrath, and that is how you can define abilities as 'similar' - if in most game states that you want effect, the other effect would usually be a fine substitute. Wrath of God and a big Mutilate are 'similar' effects because in most game states where you want one, the other will do the job.
The only time that cards in library matter more than cards in exile is when you can tutor for them (not relevant in Standard) or when the game will go long enough that you have a non-trivial chance of naturally drawing them. Elixir games go long enough that this is the case. JtLG ultimate games will never go that long.
He resembles an every-turn Scry + some Fogs, which starts looking like Ashiok against Big Elspeth and Mutavault, but at least is better than nothing.
In testing as Modern Blue Moon vs. Modern Jund, he actually helped win a game I was initially losing by Scrying for stallers (Cryptic Command, Batterskull, removal) and absorbing a lot of damage. He bounced a Goyf and later died, but I managed to get in enough Batterskull hits later to win.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
There's nothing even moderately complex about his effect on a game.
Just pointing out that Jace's -3 is actually Void Snare, not Disperse, which means that it is overcosted.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Scratch that after seeing -2, yeah that would have been much more fairly costed. Touche, sir, Touche. Lol.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
The ultimate is not Timetwister. Reread it.
The ultimate is much closer to a big Sphinx's Revelation for you and an Identity Crisis for your opponent, except you get hit with a Tormod's Crypt as well.
I think the ultimate is close in power to that of JtMS - both strip your opponent's hand completely, JtMS provides a clock (usually 2-3 turns), and JtLG gives you seven cards to serve as a clock. Of course JtLG is not on par at all with JtMS as an overall card, but this is still one of the most powerful ultimates out there.
Had JtLG's second ability been better, this card would see play. It still might.
Okay, IO was pretty sure, but I reread it anyway, and yeah, you're incredibly inaccurate. If you split it into two cards, it's Timetwister for you and the third option on Primal Command for them. In short, TImetwister, but they don't draw. No where near a Sphinx's Rev, since no one is gaining life, THAT spell would be Stroke of Genius. Identity Crisis and Tormod's Crypt both exile, this Jace ult doesn't exile anything. You can't just draw into something later that is exiled, if it's shuffled back in, it isn't exiled, it could very well end up back at the top of their Library. BTW, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is the one who Ult's for Identity Crisis....(EDIT:Unless you are in a multiplayer game, then it's copied for each opponent, and either way, without targetting anything)
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Tucking your opponent's cards is as good as exiling them. It obliterates their hand and graveyard - who cares which zone the cards go to, they aren't coming back. Hence the Identity Crisis comparison - both take the opponent's hand and graveyard, and put them in zones where they are no longer relevant, they just use different zones.
Comparing it to Timetwister is just off the planet wrong - if you cast Timetwister and do not win the game that turn you usually lose because your opponent has 7 cards and a fair bit of mana. If you ultimate JtLG and don't win that turn, you're still going to win 95% of the time, because your opponent has no hand and (if they use their graveyard as a resource at all) no graveyard.
Of course it doesn't gain life, Revelation is still 90% about the mass card draw anyway. Opportunity, Stroke, Blue Sun's Zenith, Sphinx's Revelation - all of these are mass card draw spells, some just do small other things as well.
I'll Score him, in considering the cards at this moment. You can not say stuff about Khans for him now, because for all we know, Khans will just make him terrible or great, we can't know yet, so we have to rate him how good he is NOW.
CMC is 4, and 4 is usually what you want want to spend on a walker, and right now he is fighting for a spot at AOT and kiora, both of which can draw you cards on the spot, unlike this one. But he does come in with 5, which is pretty good, but, would you rather cast AOT or this jace? Be honest.
+1- this right now does almost nothing, it draws nothing, you can not even send the cards to the bottem if you do not want them, you are stuck with them, why do you think Index is
terrible, you draw nothing that's why. I would rather scry one then "dig 2"
-3 you are paying 4 mana for a 1 mana spell. very over costed. compare it to kiora's +1 they both stop, usually a creature, but her's is a +, while his is a minus, you can't even do twice in a row. You can compare it to vraska's minus, and her's destroys the thing. Yes she is 1 mana more, and jace gets a little bit more for being 4, but almost always destroy > bounce
-8 The thing everyone who likes this jace is talking about, in reality this ult. is a trap. Sure it draws you 7, and gets rid of their hand, but you people are living in magical Christmas land, where you can ultimate planeswalkers, ulting planeswalkers rarely happens, and more so on this one, where you want to minus more than plus. If you plus for 3 turns, you accomplished not much, especially for his CMC. Also look at there other 2 walkers ults, kiora gets you a giant creature everyturn, and AOT gets you aetherling and Elspeth, when you look at TLGP's ult in compared to theirs, it just seems weak.
One last thing, compare this jace to the couple walkers who never saw much, if any standard play in the last 2 years Gideon, Liliana, and Ral. Gideon gets a TON of loyalty and can threaten to one shot your opponent. Liliana is a kill spell, that makes you never miss land drops. and Ral zerek Bolts. All these walkers do things to the board to an extent, way harder than this Jace does, he can Bounce ONCE then do nothing for 2 turns. These 3 walkers are terrible for standard, but they do more than Jace, they tells you how good he is.
This jace is fighting for way too many spots in any deck that would even consider playing him.
Well take that what you will, believe me or not, just stop blinding hyping or defending cards, without REALLY reading them.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
So if Emrakul, the Eons Torn said "When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile Emrakul and your graveyard instead." would be the exact same thing?
Different Zones are different zones. With the exception of things like Runic Repetition and Misthollow Griffin thing can't be retrieved from exile. You retrieve things from your library every turn between your Upkeep and Pre-combat main phase, unless of course someone is playing things like Possessed Portal.
It's Timetwister for yourself, and 3rd option of Primal Command for them. Worded exactly.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Please read the card again, until you realise what it does to the opponent. You are currently making a fool of yourself by ignoring the most important thing it does.
If you can't see the difference, here it is.
Primal Command your opponent, they still have cards in hand, but no graveyard. JtLG ultimate them, they now have no cards in hand (as well as no graveyard, if their deck cares about that). And because you have 7 cards to their zero they will almost never live long enough to draw more than one or two cards again, and you will have answers to almost anything they might draw.
The only time this is not close to an Identity Crisis is if the opponent's cards in library are significantly different to the cards in their hand and graveyard, which does not usually happen in Standard, but might in Modern (if you ultimate turn 8 and your opponent's graveyard is full of fetchlands) or in Legacy (where there is a lot more tutoring and one-ofs, meaning that there is a real difference between having 1 of a card in the library and having 0).
Even then those cases don't matter, because this card is not strong enough for Modern or Legacy. And in Standard, a tucked card is as gone as one in exile unless the game goes so long that it has a high chance to be redrawn naturally.
Misread Primal Command. Still not the one making a fool of myself. I'll rephrase to "Ult is Timetwister, except your opponent doesn't get to draw". Either way, for you it's Timetwister. Is that exact enough for someone who thinks that, even in standard, Tucking into the library is the same as Exiled. You know, the format where people have been intentionally shuffling their graveyard into their library (Elixir of Immortality) just to draw(Sphinx's Revelation and reuse removal spells for over a year now. But yeah, it's ok, Exile and "shuffle into your library" is the same thing in Standard.
Different zones are different zones in all formats. Saying anything else is preposterous.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Flavor: 1/10. This card is a HUGE flavor fail. You are telling the Living Guildpact can only use blue abilities? Thanks for wasting the name though Wizards!
Playability: 3/10 It's okay in limited, borderline playable in standard (of course will depend on what is in Khans), god-awful in EDH (he doesn't really do much in a format were you need big plays), shouldn't make the cut in Cubes, and you are joking if you are talking about any other format.
Overall: I honestly like Tibalt better.
Elixir's shuffle effect matters because the game lasts at least 5-10 turns after you use Elixir, so increasing the percentage of business spells in your deck by shuffling 6 of them in matters, every game.
When you ultimate JtLG, your opponent *will never resolve another spell* unless they are playing uncounterable spells or you do something stupid. So unless your opponent plays relevant uncounterables, you do not care what they ever draw again. They will draw 2 more cards, maximum, in the game, and you will counter them all with your new grip of 7 cards and all the lands you drew.
Identity Crisis is a resource denial spell. JtLG's ultimate has *exactly the same* resource denial effect, while also pushing you up to 7 cards. The nuances of how it changes what your opponent might draw in future don't matter, because *your opponent will never resolve a spell again, because you just drew 7 cards, which means you have counters, card draw and will not miss land drops*.
Calling this 'Timetwister except the opponent doesn't draw' is technically true but so misleading it's useless. It's like calling Plague Wind 'Wrath of God except your guys don't die'. Yes that's true, but Plague Wind is a totally different card that serves a totally different purpose (or at least it would, except the effect is so inherenetly overpowered that for balance the card had to be given a mana cost that makes it unplayable in every format except kitchen table and the slowest limited formats, it's too slow even for ramp decks in EDH). Game states where you would want Plague Wind are usually game states where you do not want a Wrath, and that is how you can define abilities as 'similar' - if in most game states that you want effect, the other effect would usually be a fine substitute. Wrath of God and a big Mutilate are 'similar' effects because in most game states where you want one, the other will do the job.
The only time that cards in library matter more than cards in exile is when you can tutor for them (not relevant in Standard) or when the game will go long enough that you have a non-trivial chance of naturally drawing them. Elixir games go long enough that this is the case. JtLG ultimate games will never go that long.
It's Timetwister, minus your opponents' hand.
I could think of more combination of cards to give this effect but why should all of us inconvenience ourselves with that. lol
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG