I think it's eminently obvious that the way this card was designed has everything to do with how many cheap repeatable scry effects there are in block. I'm not sure I understand where people are coming from here. If this had been costed like, say, burning vengeance, the u/r deck built around it would seriously break the back of the format. It makes every dissolve a 2-for-1 and every sigiled starfish a lavamancer w/o drawback. Magma jets do 4 damage, keranos bolts 5. That prognostic sphinx would be a blue flying inferno titan. There's genuinely way too much in this set that works way too well with a burning vengeance variant. Costing it out of the market was a good move. Even at 1 per activation it's still pretty risky.
Oh and the reason burning vengeance is so aggressive compared to the other variants of it in the past is because flashback as a mechanic already has some hoops in that the cards need to get to and stay in the graveyard and typically they flashed back for more mana than simply casting it would've cost. The only creature that really interacted with flashback in innistrad was snapcaster.
Making K&P constructed playable at 3cmc would make a stale format a little better. Heck I don't think people intrinsically wish for that. A playable limited build around me will do.
Btw Dao, what you just said was absolutely beautiful. Wouldn't all these plays make constructed more appealing? That's what a build around me card is supposed to do. Wouldn't anyone wish to see a starfish make a constructed Pro Tour? That's what I'm talking about.
I think it's eminently obvious that the way this card was designed has everything to do with how many cheap repeatable scry effects there are in block. I'm not sure I understand where people are coming from here. If this had been costed like, say, burning vengeance, the u/r deck built around it would seriously break the back of the format. It makes every dissolve a 2-for-1 and every sigiled starfish a lavamancer w/o drawback. Magma jets do 4 damage, keranos bolts 5. That prognostic sphinx would be a blue flying inferno titan. There's genuinely way too much in this set that works way too well with a burning vengeance variant. Costing it out of the market was a good move. Even at 1 per activation it's still pretty risky.
I want people to have to deal with more than just creatures. I would prefer a dominant, synergistic, scry based deck to any of the standard metas in the past 4 years.
I think it's eminently obvious that the way this card was designed has everything to do with how many cheap repeatable scry effects there are in block. I'm not sure I understand where people are coming from here. If this had been costed like, say, burning vengeance, the u/r deck built around it would seriously break the back of the format. It makes every dissolve a 2-for-1 and every sigiled starfish a lavamancer w/o drawback. Magma jets do 4 damage, keranos bolts 5. That prognostic sphinx would be a blue flying inferno titan. There's genuinely way too much in this set that works way too well with a burning vengeance variant. Costing it out of the market was a good move. Even at 1 per activation it's still pretty risky.
Here's the thing though. None of those interactions are particularly impressive. 5 mana for a counterspell + shock is good in limited, but would never break any formats. Similar analysis goes for the rest of the interactions you brought up. Also, as has already been mentioned, this block is full of enchantment removal so even if they had made this good in limited by reducing casting cost by 1-2, it would still not dominate the format.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I'm not sure you guys understand, if your goal is deck variety, as in having more than one or two incredibly dominant decks in a format, then you don't want this to be such a good card that every single deck in the meta is boarding enchantment removal specifically to combat it (black and red just twiddling their thumbs, of course). That's assuming that removal can get past the countermagic shell this slots into anyway.
I want people to have to deal with more than just creatures. I would prefer a dominant, synergistic, scry based deck to any of the standard metas in the past 4 years.
You would, but history has demonstrated again and again that that kind of monotony is what loses the game players. Wizards didn't phase out combo decks just because they're horribly vindictive and don't want you having any fun.
Here's the thing though. None of those interactions are particularly impressive. 5 mana for a counterspell + shock is good in limited, but would never break any formats. Similar analysis goes for the rest of the interactions you brought up. Also, as has already been mentioned, this block is full of enchantment removal so even if they had made this good in limited by reducing casting cost by 1-2, it would still not dominate the format.
I was talking about if the card worked specifically like burning vengeance, i.e. no activation. It's possible the enchantment could cost three and activations could cost 2, but I think when it comes down to it the activation cost is the thing. Speaking of, you're absolutely right that this is pretty decent in limited, especially in a slower format like theros.
I will also point out that cards like sigiled starfish are AWFUL if you don't get this enchantment, and the enchantment would have no form of protection.
"Becomes a lavamancer without drawback" isn't even a true statement. You are running an awful card that becomes better IF you get this enchantment out.
When your "deck that breaks the format" can't stand up to having a specific card removed, countered, or discarded, and doesn't win the game on the spot, that deck is too easy to hate out. Even something like slaughter games would completely CRUSH the deck.
I will also point out that cards like sigiled starfish are AWFUL if you don't get this enchantment, and the enchantment would have no form of protection.
"Becomes a lavamancer without drawback" isn't even a true statement. You are running an awful card that becomes better IF you get this enchantment out.
When your "deck that breaks the format" can't stand up to having a specific card removed, countered, or discarded, and doesn't win the game on the spot, that deck is too easy to hate out. Even something like slaughter games would completely CRUSH the deck.
Your problem is your too focused on trying to be a Spike that you've forgotten that people play magic for different reasons. It doesn't matter it's not pushed. People will see the effect, think that's cool and play it round the kitchen table. And however much you can kick and scream they are fine to do so.
No ones asking you to like the card, just accept that other people will and move on.
red and black can burn and destroy the starfish. black also has discard and this deck will probably fall apart if you can't land this enchantment. if red can't win by turn 5, it wouldn't matter if it's this enchantment or another 5 drop.
i think they were afraid of Burning Vengeance almost making tier 2 and said, nope, that's too good for a combo deck.
It perfectly could have costed 3 like Furnace Celebrations, which was powerful enough to make a functional, fun deck, that was no tier 1. Celebrations had the Eldrazi spawn tokens around to serve as both enablers and payment for the trigger, yet it was not "broken" at all. Perhaps at a lower cost would have been broken in Modern, which has much better scry enablers?
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
It perfectly could have costed 3 like Furnace Celebrations, which was powerful enough to make a functional, fun deck, that was no tier 1. Celebrations had the Eldrazi spawn tokens around to serve as both enablers and payment for the trigger, yet it was not "broken" at all. Perhaps at a lower cost would have been broken in Modern, which has much better scry enablers?
Modern's just too fast to be tapping out for a full turn 4 or 5, and THEN still spending 2 mana extra for a shock. So is Standard, actually. 3-mana would probably warrant Standard consideration, but the 2 mana activation is still really heavy, and I doubt that would make it past tier 2. Why this thing costs 5 is mind-boggling - they could have made it cost 4 and it would still have made virtually 0 competitive impact.
I was talking about if the card worked specifically like burning vengeance, i.e. no activation. It's possible the enchantment could cost three and activations could cost 2, but I think when it comes down to it the activation cost is the thing. Speaking of, you're absolutely right that this is pretty decent in limited, especially in a slower format like theros.
And I think this is where you (and possibly Bolas) are alone. I don't think anyone here would sanely ask for a 3 CMC mono-colored card that Shocked for free whenever you scry.
I said this in a previous post but it's dangerous to link no activation cost to a card pool with repeatedly scry. But likewise those singular instances of Scry should have a rightful impact as well.
That's why I think a majority of people think the problem with K&P is the high CMC. Cost it at 2 or 3 CMC and it wouldn't break the format as an activation-cost of 2 for 2 damage is not capable of repeatable activations to lock out anything, especially considering it needs to be combined with other cards.
My suggestion was to have it at 3 CMC with Scry 1 as ETB-effect so you can activate it on itself for a total of 5 mana - then even limited can use it as an incredibly expensive Shock in worst case scenario.
It perfectly could have costed 3 like Furnace Celebrations, which was powerful enough to make a functional, fun deck, that was no tier 1. Celebrations had the Eldrazi spawn tokens around to serve as both enablers and payment for the trigger, yet it was not "broken" at all. Perhaps at a lower cost would have been broken in Modern, which has much better scry enablers?
Modern's just too fast to be tapping out for a full turn 4 or 5, and THEN still spending 2 mana extra for a shock. So is Standard, actually. 3-mana would probably warrant Standard consideration, but the 2 mana activation is still really heavy, and I doubt that would make it past tier 2. Why this thing costs 5 is mind-boggling - they could have made it cost 4 and it would still have made virtually 0 competitive impact.
Yeah my point is that at lower CMC cost, like 3, it could become an annoying Modern combo deck. At 4 or 5 it is definitely nothing in no format except the most casual kitchen tables.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
I will also point out that cards like sigiled starfish are AWFUL if you don't get this enchantment, and the enchantment would have no form of protection.
"Becomes a lavamancer without drawback" isn't even a true statement. You are running an awful card that becomes better IF you get this enchantment out.
When your "deck that breaks the format" can't stand up to having a specific card removed, countered, or discarded, and doesn't win the game on the spot, that deck is too easy to hate out. Even something like slaughter games would completely CRUSH the deck.
A 0/3 blocker that improves your draw quality every single turn for 2? What format are we talking about again? Also did you just "dies to removal?"
red and black can burn and destroy the starfish. black also has discard and this deck will probably fall apart if you can't land this enchantment. if red can't win by turn 5, it wouldn't matter if it's this enchantment or another 5 drop.
i think they were afraid of Burning Vengeance almost making tier 2 and said, nope, that's too good for a combo deck.
Turn 5? Are you sure you're playing theros limited?
I was talking about if the card worked specifically like burning vengeance, i.e. no activation. It's possible the enchantment could cost three and activations could cost 2, but I think when it comes down to it the activation cost is the thing. Speaking of, you're absolutely right that this is pretty decent in limited, especially in a slower format like theros.
And I think this is where you (and possibly Bolas) are alone. I don't think anyone here would sanely ask for a 3 CMC mono-colored card that Shocked for free whenever you scry.
I said this in a previous post but it's dangerous to link no activation cost to a card pool with repeatedly scry. But likewise those singular instances of Scry should have a rightful impact as well.
That's why I think a majority of people think the problem with K&P is the high CMC. Cost it at 2 or 3 CMC and it wouldn't break the format as an activation-cost of 2 for 2 damage is not capable of repeatable activations to lock out anything, especially considering it needs to be combined with other cards.
My suggestion was to have it at 3 CMC with Scry 1 as ETB-effect so you can activate it on itself for a total of 5 mana - then even limited can use it as an incredibly expensive Shock in worst case scenario.
Isn't that exactly what the people I just quoted are asking for, though? And I think it's the 2 to activate that really costs it out of the market. I'm not sure this would really be effective even at R to cast.
I was talking about if the card worked specifically like burning vengeance, i.e. no activation. It's possible the enchantment could cost three and activations could cost 2, but I think when it comes down to it the activation cost is the thing. Speaking of, you're absolutely right that this is pretty decent in limited, especially in a slower format like theros.
I do not anticipate this card, as printed,to be playable in limited. I've been wrong before, but 5 mana for a card that does nothing without other cards is almost always very very bad.
You are quite right to say that a version of this card in which the activation cost and the mana cost have both been reduced by 2 would be rather insanely powerful, probably broken. I don't want that card printed and I'm not sure anyone else does either. But the printed version and your busted version aren't the only version that could be made. There are lots of different ways to design the card which are all better designs in terms of balance than both the printed version and your version.
The printed design is just bad.....
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Isn't that exactly what the people I just quoted are asking for, though?
No, they aren't asking for it. On this page (page 5) you have quoted carthage, lord of atlantis, and tzefick. The most pushed carthage has been willing to go was seen in post #23 in which he stated the following...
If the activation cost was free, it would be properly costed at 3R.
...which is quite a lot worse than the version you are arguing against.
Lord of Atlantis hasn't endorsed a specific version and has simply stated that the printed version is overcosted. Tzefick has stated on multiple occasions that the version he likes features a cmc cost of 3 and a trigger cost of 2.
By arguing against a version of the card that no one endorses you are committing the logical fallacy known as a "straw man."
EDIT: You have also quoted me, but I think I have made my views clear in prior posts.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
@ Tzefick: I think Dao is alone on this one. There's repeatable scry in the format. Paying 2 is fine, but it should be costed at 3cmc. That's what I'm implying. As I've said earlier, they played it too safe because of scrylands.
@ Dao: THS isn't a slow format. I hope you get some limited games in and have a feel yourself. But it isn't Zendikar fast, that's all.
What, exactly, do you think I'm saying? Because I'm saying this card is fine as it is and is not the result of a mistake or everyone in development hating fun and wanting players to suffer. I don't think there's a good way to design this without either making it too good or too weak because, as has been mentioned a few times, there are a lot more ways to activate this with a lot less cost involved than there were to activate burning vengeance or . At 5 mana even just taking the activations off you're still basically warping standard here. Properly costed with no activation I'd put it around 3RRR or so and I'd still be uneasy about it. With activation, though it might have been made cheaper, but it's still priced outside of playability. 5 mana might be too much, but even 2 mana wouldn't make this card more playable.
Or in other words, not only is this enchantment fine as it is, none of you seem to be asking for versions that are really not that much better (if you're really not interested in a burning vengeance variant). If you want this fringe playable in constructed, remove the activation and don't lower the cost. If you want this playable in limited, then don't do anything because this card is fine as it is. Two extra damage on a sigiled starfish (who is again a wall that improves draws for just 2 mana)? heck yeah I'd like that engine on turn 6. Which the game /will/ go to because theros draft is not designed for 5 turn games. Have you seen those bestow costs? Turn five is when the game gets interesting, not closes out.
What, exactly, do you think I'm saying? Because I'm saying this card is fine as it is and is not the result of a mistake or everyone in development hating fun and wanting players to suffer. I don't think there's a good way to design this without either making it too good or too weak because, as has been mentioned a few times, there are a lot more ways to activate this with a lot less cost involved than there were to activate burning vengeance or . At 5 mana even just taking the activations off you're still basically warping standard here. Properly costed with no activation I'd put it around 3RRR or so and I'd still be uneasy about it. With activation, though it might have been made cheaper, but it's still priced outside of playability. 5 mana might be too much, but even 2 mana wouldn't make this card more playable.
This card seems rather terrible as is. I will be rather surprised if it sees much limited play. You seem to disagree on this point though, so I say we just drop it.
So your claim is that there is no enchantment in the world that can be triggered by scrying and deal damage that can be balanced? This is quite a strong claim and would be rather difficult to justify. Perhaps that's why you didn't justify it. Here are some potentially better designs which vary in power level...
K&P (V1) 1R
Enchantment
Whenever you scry, you may pay R. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature
K&P (V2) 1R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay 2. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
K&P (V3) 2R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay 2. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
K&P (V4) 2R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay R. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature.
K&P (V5) 3R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay 2. If you do, K&P deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
K&P (V6) 3R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, K&P deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
...You see how easy it is to play with the numbers and make cards which are better than K&P while being worse than your insane version. I don't know exactly what numbers make a card which is playable because doing so requires playtesting and time I don't have, But I will gaurantee that there is a version of K&P that is balanced.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
What, exactly, do you think I'm saying? Because I'm saying this card is fine as it is and is not the result of a mistake or everyone in development hating fun and wanting players to suffer. I don't think there's a good way to design this without either making it too good or too weak because, as has been mentioned a few times, there are a lot more ways to activate this with a lot less cost involved than there were to activate burning vengeance or . At 5 mana even just taking the activations off you're still basically warping standard here. Properly costed with no activation I'd put it around 3RRR or so and I'd still be uneasy about it. With activation, though it might have been made cheaper, but it's still priced outside of playability. 5 mana might be too much, but even 2 mana wouldn't make this card more playable.
Or in other words, not only is this enchantment fine as it is, none of you seem to be asking for versions that are really not that much better (if you're really not interested in a burning vengeance variant). If you want this fringe playable in constructed, remove the activation and don't lower the cost. If you want this playable in limited, then don't do anything because this card is fine as it is. Two extra damage on a sigiled starfish (who is again a wall that improves draws for just 2 mana)? heck yeah I'd like that engine on turn 6. Which the game /will/ go to because theros draft is not designed for 5 turn games. Have you seen those bestow costs? Turn five is when the game gets interesting, not closes out.
1R
When you scry, pay 1 to shock
What cards would push this over the edge?
What deck would have trouble dealing with this?
What, exactly, do you think I'm saying? Because I'm saying this card is fine as it is and is not the result of a mistake or everyone in development hating fun and wanting players to suffer. I don't think there's a good way to design this without either making it too good or too weak because, as has been mentioned a few times, there are a lot more ways to activate this with a lot less cost involved than there were to activate burning vengeance or . At 5 mana even just taking the activations off you're still basically warping standard here. Properly costed with no activation I'd put it around 3RRR or so and I'd still be uneasy about it. With activation, though it might have been made cheaper, but it's still priced outside of playability. 5 mana might be too much, but even 2 mana wouldn't make this card more playable.
Or in other words, not only is this enchantment fine as it is, none of you seem to be asking for versions that are really not that much better (if you're really not interested in a burning vengeance variant). If you want this fringe playable in constructed, remove the activation and don't lower the cost. If you want this playable in limited, then don't do anything because this card is fine as it is. Two extra damage on a sigiled starfish (who is again a wall that improves draws for just 2 mana)? heck yeah I'd like that engine on turn 6. Which the game /will/ go to because theros draft is not designed for 5 turn games. Have you seen those bestow costs? Turn five is when the game gets interesting, not closes out.
1R
When you scry, pay 1 to shock
What cards would push this over the edge?
What deck would have trouble dealing with this?
I might change the activation cost to red mana instead of colorless, but other than that I like this design.
What, exactly, do you think I'm saying? Because I'm saying this card is fine as it is and is not the result of a mistake or everyone in development hating fun and wanting players to suffer. I don't think there's a good way to design this without either making it too good or too weak because, as has been mentioned a few times, there are a lot more ways to activate this with a lot less cost involved than there were to activate burning vengeance or . At 5 mana even just taking the activations off you're still basically warping standard here. Properly costed with no activation I'd put it around 3RRR or so and I'd still be uneasy about it. With activation, though it might have been made cheaper, but it's still priced outside of playability. 5 mana might be too much, but even 2 mana wouldn't make this card more playable.
This card seems rather terrible as is. I will be rather surprised if it sees much limited play. You seem to disagree on this point though, so I say we just drop it.
So your claim is that there is no enchantment in the world that can be triggered by scrying and deal damage that can be balanced? This is quite a strong claim and would be rather difficult to justify. Perhaps that's why you didn't justify it. Here are some potentially better designs which vary in power level...
K&P (V1) 1R
Enchantment
Whenever you scry, you may pay R. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature
K&P (V2) 1R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay 2. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
K&P (V3) 2R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay 2. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
K&P (V4) 2R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay R. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature.
K&P (V5) 3R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay 2. If you do, K&P deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
K&P (V6) 3R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, K&P deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
...You see how easy it is to play with the numbers and make cards which are better than K&P while being worse than your insane version. I don't know exactly what numbers make a card which is playable because doing so requires playtesting and time I don't have, But I will gaurantee that there is a version of K&P that is balanced.
Yeah, there is a version that's balanced. It's the one that they printed. Those cards of yours are stronger sure, but that doesn't make them better. In fact, by making K&P "better" you could be actively destroying magic.
You're looking at the card in the context of the set. Wizards uses this concept called "design space". K&P is on the lower level of the power spectrum so that they can have more wiggle room in the future to design cards like it. There's only so many dials to turn on each card and if you knock each one up to 10 every time, you're cutting out future cards that could be desgined but won't because they've been obsoleted before they've even seen print. But sure let's just destroy magic so YOU can have 1 slightly better UNCOMMON.
You know, Search the City is worse that K&P and that's rare so I don't see the point in getting angry at K&P.
What cards would push this over the edge?
What deck would have trouble dealing with this?
Any. That card is ridiculously OP in standard. Terrible design. Yeah, let's just obselete Lightning Rift guys.
Stuff like K&P just reminds me that Wizards knows what they're doing, and if you make card suggestion like any of the above it proves that you don't understand magic design AT ALL.
In fact, by making K&P "better" you could be actively destroying magic.
Exaggerate much?
You're looking at the card in the context of the set. Wizards uses this concept called "design space". K&P is on the lower level of the power spectrum so that they can have more wiggle room in the future to design cards like it. There's only so many dials to turn on each card and if you knock each one up to 10 every time, you're cutting out future cards that could be desgined but won't because they've been obsoleted before they've even seen print. But sure let's just destroy magic so YOU can have 1 slightly better UNCOMMON.
Your idea of design space is that the first time an effect is printed it has to suck just so it can be made better in the future? You might want to rethink that.
That aside, there's no reason a card that's worse (even strictly worse) than some other card from several years ago can't be printed to make a similar effect available in Standard and/or Block. See: Shock, Cancel, and many, many others. Moreover, since Knowledge and Power is only appropriate in a block where scry is a major player, it's extremely unlikely we'd see anything like this for a number of years and, in fact, they may never want this effect ever again. Making it terrible now because maybe they might want to make a better version six+ years from now is nonsensical.
How does a card that does something completely different and exists in completely different formats obsolete another card?
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"I am so stupid that I cannot understand philosophy; the antithesis of this is that philosophy is so clever that it cannot comprehend my stupidity. These antitheses are mediated in a higher unity; in our common stupidity."
~ Søren Aabye Kierkegaard
Any. That card is ridiculously OP in standard. Terrible design. Yeah, let's just obselete Lightning Rift guys.
Stuff like K&P just reminds me that Wizards knows what they're doing, and if you make card suggestion like any of the above it proves that you don't understand magic design AT ALL.
You didn't answer the question. You just gave the standard dodge of "it's op with anything" without citing even 1 example of a card that pushes this over the edge.
I think K&P has a higher chance of destroying its controller instead. It's definitely not one for the faint hearted...
@ Dao: I've seen bestow cards, and I still think you should review THS limited. IF K&P was in old Ravinca or Rise of the Eldrazi format, there's a medium chance it'll be decent at 5cmc.
In THS block, on a average T5, people should be bestowing their creatures; that's where you're absolutely right. Not casting K&P. I've never been in greater agreement with you.
Good luck with the starfish triggering 2 damage on a bestowed creature.
Oh and the reason burning vengeance is so aggressive compared to the other variants of it in the past is because flashback as a mechanic already has some hoops in that the cards need to get to and stay in the graveyard and typically they flashed back for more mana than simply casting it would've cost. The only creature that really interacted with flashback in innistrad was snapcaster.
Making K&P constructed playable at 3cmc would make a stale format a little better. Heck I don't think people intrinsically wish for that. A playable limited build around me will do.
Btw Dao, what you just said was absolutely beautiful. Wouldn't all these plays make constructed more appealing? That's what a build around me card is supposed to do. Wouldn't anyone wish to see a starfish make a constructed Pro Tour? That's what I'm talking about.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I want people to have to deal with more than just creatures. I would prefer a dominant, synergistic, scry based deck to any of the standard metas in the past 4 years.
Here's the thing though. None of those interactions are particularly impressive. 5 mana for a counterspell + shock is good in limited, but would never break any formats. Similar analysis goes for the rest of the interactions you brought up. Also, as has already been mentioned, this block is full of enchantment removal so even if they had made this good in limited by reducing casting cost by 1-2, it would still not dominate the format.
- Manite
You would, but history has demonstrated again and again that that kind of monotony is what loses the game players. Wizards didn't phase out combo decks just because they're horribly vindictive and don't want you having any fun.
I was talking about if the card worked specifically like burning vengeance, i.e. no activation. It's possible the enchantment could cost three and activations could cost 2, but I think when it comes down to it the activation cost is the thing. Speaking of, you're absolutely right that this is pretty decent in limited, especially in a slower format like theros.
"Becomes a lavamancer without drawback" isn't even a true statement. You are running an awful card that becomes better IF you get this enchantment out.
When your "deck that breaks the format" can't stand up to having a specific card removed, countered, or discarded, and doesn't win the game on the spot, that deck is too easy to hate out. Even something like slaughter games would completely CRUSH the deck.
Your problem is your too focused on trying to be a Spike that you've forgotten that people play magic for different reasons. It doesn't matter it's not pushed. People will see the effect, think that's cool and play it round the kitchen table. And however much you can kick and scream they are fine to do so.
No ones asking you to like the card, just accept that other people will and move on.
i think they were afraid of Burning Vengeance almost making tier 2 and said, nope, that's too good for a combo deck.
........................
Modern's just too fast to be tapping out for a full turn 4 or 5, and THEN still spending 2 mana extra for a shock. So is Standard, actually. 3-mana would probably warrant Standard consideration, but the 2 mana activation is still really heavy, and I doubt that would make it past tier 2. Why this thing costs 5 is mind-boggling - they could have made it cost 4 and it would still have made virtually 0 competitive impact.
I said this in a previous post but it's dangerous to link no activation cost to a card pool with repeatedly scry. But likewise those singular instances of Scry should have a rightful impact as well.
That's why I think a majority of people think the problem with K&P is the high CMC. Cost it at 2 or 3 CMC and it wouldn't break the format as an activation-cost of 2 for 2 damage is not capable of repeatable activations to lock out anything, especially considering it needs to be combined with other cards.
My suggestion was to have it at 3 CMC with Scry 1 as ETB-effect so you can activate it on itself for a total of 5 mana - then even limited can use it as an incredibly expensive Shock in worst case scenario.
Yeah my point is that at lower CMC cost, like 3, it could become an annoying Modern combo deck. At 4 or 5 it is definitely nothing in no format except the most casual kitchen tables.
A 0/3 blocker that improves your draw quality every single turn for 2? What format are we talking about again? Also did you just "dies to removal?"
Turn 5? Are you sure you're playing theros limited?
Isn't that exactly what the people I just quoted are asking for, though? And I think it's the 2 to activate that really costs it out of the market. I'm not sure this would really be effective even at R to cast.
I do not anticipate this card, as printed,to be playable in limited. I've been wrong before, but 5 mana for a card that does nothing without other cards is almost always very very bad.
You are quite right to say that a version of this card in which the activation cost and the mana cost have both been reduced by 2 would be rather insanely powerful, probably broken. I don't want that card printed and I'm not sure anyone else does either. But the printed version and your busted version aren't the only version that could be made. There are lots of different ways to design the card which are all better designs in terms of balance than both the printed version and your version.
The printed design is just bad.....
- Manite
No, they aren't asking for it. On this page (page 5) you have quoted carthage, lord of atlantis, and tzefick. The most pushed carthage has been willing to go was seen in post #23 in which he stated the following...
...which is quite a lot worse than the version you are arguing against.
Lord of Atlantis hasn't endorsed a specific version and has simply stated that the printed version is overcosted. Tzefick has stated on multiple occasions that the version he likes features a cmc cost of 3 and a trigger cost of 2.
By arguing against a version of the card that no one endorses you are committing the logical fallacy known as a "straw man."
EDIT: You have also quoted me, but I think I have made my views clear in prior posts.
- Manite
@ Dao: THS isn't a slow format. I hope you get some limited games in and have a feel yourself. But it isn't Zendikar fast, that's all.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Or in other words, not only is this enchantment fine as it is, none of you seem to be asking for versions that are really not that much better (if you're really not interested in a burning vengeance variant). If you want this fringe playable in constructed, remove the activation and don't lower the cost. If you want this playable in limited, then don't do anything because this card is fine as it is. Two extra damage on a sigiled starfish (who is again a wall that improves draws for just 2 mana)? heck yeah I'd like that engine on turn 6. Which the game /will/ go to because theros draft is not designed for 5 turn games. Have you seen those bestow costs? Turn five is when the game gets interesting, not closes out.
This card seems rather terrible as is. I will be rather surprised if it sees much limited play. You seem to disagree on this point though, so I say we just drop it.
So your claim is that there is no enchantment in the world that can be triggered by scrying and deal damage that can be balanced? This is quite a strong claim and would be rather difficult to justify. Perhaps that's why you didn't justify it. Here are some potentially better designs which vary in power level...
K&P (V1) 1R
Enchantment
Whenever you scry, you may pay R. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature
K&P (V2) 1R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay 2. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
K&P (V3) 2R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay 2. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
K&P (V4) 2R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay R. If you do, K&P deals 2 damage to target creature.
K&P (V5) 3R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, you may pay 2. If you do, K&P deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
K&P (V6) 3R
Enchantment
When K&P enters the battlefield, scry 1.
Whenever you scry, K&P deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
...You see how easy it is to play with the numbers and make cards which are better than K&P while being worse than your insane version. I don't know exactly what numbers make a card which is playable because doing so requires playtesting and time I don't have, But I will gaurantee that there is a version of K&P that is balanced.
- Manite
1R
When you scry, pay 1 to shock
What cards would push this over the edge?
What deck would have trouble dealing with this?
I might change the activation cost to red mana instead of colorless, but other than that I like this design.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yeah, there is a version that's balanced. It's the one that they printed. Those cards of yours are stronger sure, but that doesn't make them better. In fact, by making K&P "better" you could be actively destroying magic.
You're looking at the card in the context of the set. Wizards uses this concept called "design space". K&P is on the lower level of the power spectrum so that they can have more wiggle room in the future to design cards like it. There's only so many dials to turn on each card and if you knock each one up to 10 every time, you're cutting out future cards that could be desgined but won't because they've been obsoleted before they've even seen print. But sure let's just destroy magic so YOU can have 1 slightly better UNCOMMON.
You know, Search the City is worse that K&P and that's rare so I don't see the point in getting angry at K&P.
Any. That card is ridiculously OP in standard. Terrible design. Yeah, let's just obselete Lightning Rift guys.
Stuff like K&P just reminds me that Wizards knows what they're doing, and if you make card suggestion like any of the above it proves that you don't understand magic design AT ALL.
That aside, there's no reason a card that's worse (even strictly worse) than some other card from several years ago can't be printed to make a similar effect available in Standard and/or Block. See: Shock, Cancel, and many, many others. Moreover, since Knowledge and Power is only appropriate in a block where scry is a major player, it's extremely unlikely we'd see anything like this for a number of years and, in fact, they may never want this effect ever again. Making it terrible now because maybe they might want to make a better version six+ years from now is nonsensical. How does a card that does something completely different and exists in completely different formats obsolete another card?
~ Søren Aabye Kierkegaard
You didn't answer the question. You just gave the standard dodge of "it's op with anything" without citing even 1 example of a card that pushes this over the edge.
Also, lightning rift is not overpowered, so...
I think K&P has a higher chance of destroying its controller instead. It's definitely not one for the faint hearted...
@ Dao: I've seen bestow cards, and I still think you should review THS limited. IF K&P was in old Ravinca or Rise of the Eldrazi format, there's a medium chance it'll be decent at 5cmc.
In THS block, on a average T5, people should be bestowing their creatures; that's where you're absolutely right. Not casting K&P. I've never been in greater agreement with you.
Good luck with the starfish triggering 2 damage on a bestowed creature.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG