@Valanarch: The total number of individual cards that see play in eternal formats don't always correlate to how strong/good a block is for standard.
The perfect example is Kamigawa block which was at the time widely considered one of the weakest blocks ever (being between original Mirrodin and original Ravnica blocks didn't help) and which had a minimal impact on the standard format (much less than Theros where devotion based decks have at different times taken over standard). However if you only looked at Kamigawa's eternal playables then it would end up very high on the list of blocks with the most impact on eternal formats.
Not to mention that many cards which succeed in eternal formats often aren't even all that great in standard, take Forked Bolt for example it saw next to no play in standard but then went onto see a decent amount of play in legacy. Or the dredge strategy, not a powerhouse in standard by any means but went on to be a player in formats like extended and legacy (and something the DCI fears in modern enough to banhammer key cards).
@Valanarch: The total number of individual cards that see play in eternal formats don't always correlate to how strong/good a block is for standard.
The perfect example is Kamigawa block which was at the time widely considered one of the weakest blocks ever (being between original Mirrodin and original Ravnica blocks didn't help) and which had a minimal impact on the standard format (much less than Theros where devotion based decks have at different times taken over standard). However if you only looked at Kamigawa's eternal playables then it would end up very high on the list of blocks with the most impact on eternal formats.
Not to mention that many cards which succeed in eternal formats often aren't even all that great in standard, take Forked Bolt for example it saw next to no play in standard but then went onto see a decent amount of play in legacy. Or the dredge strategy, not a powerhouse in standard by any means but went on to be a player in formats like extended and legacy (and something the DCI fears in modern enough to banhammer key cards).
If I recall correctly, Dredge was a powerful deck in Ravnica-Time Spiral Standard. Also, how would you judge the power-level of a block if not by its lasting legacy?
If anyone needs proof that MtG players will complain about anything, this thread is a perfect example. Journey into Nyx has something for everyone. If you can't find a card you like in each color, either you're not looking hard enough, or your standards are so incredibly narrow that nothing Wizards was going to print would satisfy you.
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I mainly play Standard and Modern.
MTGO Nick: neonordnance
LGS: Dream Wizards in Rockville, MD
If anyone needs proof that MtG players will complain about anything, this thread is a perfect example. Journey into Nyx has something for everyone. If you can't find a card you like in each color, either you're not looking hard enough, or your standards are so incredibly narrow that nothing Wizards was going to print would satisfy you.
My standards are merely strong support for the themes of a block and 4-5 cards for Modern. Is that really too much to ask?
I for one can't wait to see Tormented Thoughts in action. That card is sick in a Standard that runs multiple high power low cost creatures in black. Like Desecration Demon, Alms Beast, and Master of the Feast. If you think you arent going to get blown out at least once by discarding 5-6 cards on turn 4, you've got another thing coming. Just because a card isn't rare and super high on the power curve doesn't mean it sucks. I'd certainly reevaluate the way you look at cards if you think black is getting the shaft of late. Try playing Nekrataal in a format dominated by Ravager Affinity and tell me how much black sucks these days compared to when I first started playing. Lulz. This thread is funny.
I for one can't wait to see Tormented Thoughts in action. That card is sick in a Standard that runs multiple high power low cost creatures in black. Like Desecration Demon, Alms Beast, and Master of the Feast. If you think you arent going to get blown out at least once by discarding 5-6 cards on turn 4, you've got another thing coming. Just because a card isn't rare and super high on the power curve doesn't mean it sucks. I'd certainly reevaluate the way you look at cards if you think black is getting the shaft of late. Try playing Nekrataal in a format dominated by Ravager Affinity and tell me how much black sucks these days compared to when I first started playing. Lulz. This thread is funny.
Most decks won't even have 5-6 cards in their hand on turn 4.
I for my part would like to know how Val knows that there aren't any cards that will affect Modern in this set when he and nobody else outside of WOTC has played with the set yet. To me all this sounds pretty much only like speculation. Condemnation of a set based on expectation rather than of actual value that has been affirmed by testing it out. It is also a pattern that I see repeated with every single set from many regular users on this board.
This is the same excuse people came up with in BNG. Its fairly safe to gauge what cards will have an impact in modern or not. What archetypes does the card play with? Does it have evasion or provide immediate value? Is it aggressively costed? Are there any broken synergies? You can already filter 95% of the cards and keep a 5% of maybes/ehs.
Grislie is arguably the most powerful black creature of all time. Only Bob may have something to say about that.
As for Ava, she's no way closer to Stoneforge, Thalia, or even Ethersworn. She's definitely behind the queue.
Plus, no one is ever gonna talk about storybook/fantasy fights between those two. If you want, you can always ask Doug Beyer.
Criticism and "condemnation" of a set before it even comes out requires a discerning and experienced eye. I regard Val's comments on JOU to be a valid and strong one. One doesn't give a snap comment without having gone through all the years of research, drafts, game plays of magic.
We have complainers all the time, but when one complains/rants/argues with logic, passion and concern about magic, I think it is right to take a step back and listen.
It is likely that a player of 2 years or less experience of Magic will enjoy a THS block. It is less likely for an old fogey like me to enjoy a THS block. I rate a block's quality on its limited, standard and eternal impact. And THS block, I can assure many padawans here, that it's only good for limited.
Rath Block-Aluren, Ancient Tomb, Boil, Burgeoning, Diabolic Edict, Dream Halls, Earthcraft, Goblin Bombardment, Humility, Lotus Petal, Mana Leak, Jackal Pup, Mind Over Matter, Mirri's Guile, Mox Diamond, Oath of Druids, Reanimate, Scroll Rack, Soul Warden, Survival of the Fittest, Mogg Fanatic, Mana Severance.
Don't forget Wasteland, Intuition, Hermit Druid, Lobotomy, Capsize, Forbid, and Reflecting Pool!
(Tempest block is my favorite old block)
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Clearly someone has forgotten about another reprint, Reprisal. This card is now in Modern and most definitely will change the metagame in Standard also.
I just think it's hilarious that they printed Vanquish the Foul in the beginning of the block. Smacking Scry 1 on it apparently causes it to go from Instant to Sorcery speed and cost 4 additional mana. Damn scry be expensive.
(Jadajada, I know it's in context with limited and Monstrosity, but still it's ridiculous)
Correct if I'm wrong, but the last card that spawned a "new" Modern archetype, is Shrieking Affliction from M14 (8 Rack), right? So by that measure, RTR wasn't that good either.
Okay. You are wrong. Shrieking Affliction is from RTR and not M14.
And to stay on topic, the problem with Magic is that there is still a power creep, but some people can't recognize it, mostly newer players who are used to it because it's all they've known. The creatures in Standard and Magic in general now are so absurdly powerful compared to what they used to be. It's not even close. Which is why I find it amusing how some people are like 'Oh my gosh they just can't have this powerful 1 or 2 mana removal'. Yeah, so it's okay for spells to suck these days, but it's completely fine to have 5/5s for 4 with no drawback and all upside, and 6/6 fliers for 4 with no drawback and all upside.
So really, Theros block is still on par to continue the power creep as it has been for some time. The reason why theres no 'Modern staples' is because the removal in Modern is actually not garbage like it is in Standard. Also, combo decks are a thing in Modern, so creatures as a whole even being as powerful as they are in Modern(Bob, Tarmogoyf, etc) are still not as big of a power creep/threat in Modern because of entirely different contexts. However, when you take combo out of standard, and good removal, and continue printing bomb creatures, you will get a skewed power creep every time. I find it laughable anyone could say Theros block is weak just because it doesn't have 'Modern staples', seeing as that's an entirely different format with different contexts.
Correct if I'm wrong, but the last card that spawned a "new" Modern archetype, is Shrieking Affliction from M14 (8 Rack), right? So by that measure, RTR wasn't that good either.
Okay. You are wrong. Shrieking Affliction is from RTR and not M14.
And to stay on topic, the problem with Magic is that there is still a power creep, but some people can't recognize it, mostly newer players who are used to it because it's all they've known. The creatures in Standard and Magic in general now are so absurdly powerful compared to what they used to be. It's not even close. Which is why I find it amusing how some people are like 'Oh my gosh they just can't have this powerful 1 or 2 mana removal'. Yeah, so it's okay for spells to suck these days, but it's completely fine to have 5/5s for 4 with no drawback and all upside, and 6/6 fliers for 4 with no drawback and all upside.
So really, Theros block is still on par to continue the power creep as it has been for some time. The reason why theres no 'Modern staples' is because the removal in Modern is actually not garbage like it is in Standard. Also, combo decks are a thing in Modern, so creatures as a whole even being as powerful as they are in Modern(Bob, Tarmogoyf, etc) are still not as big of a power creep/threat in Modern because of entirely different contexts. However, when you take combo out of standard, and good removal, and continue printing bomb creatures, you will get a skewed power creep every time. I find it laughable anyone could say Theros block is weak just because it doesn't have 'Modern staples', seeing as that's an entirely different format with different contexts.
I mostly agree with but you are wrong in thinking that the removal in standard sucks.
Uw/x Control and Mono-black are so good because they have so powerful and versatile removal
As long as you're willing to judge this set and this block by its merits as a Limited-oriented set, it's awesome. The Limited format looks powerful and balanced, with every color offering multiple strategies and multiple good pairings with other colors. It will be a VERY rare draft that people will lack playables, and the strategic decisions involved in gameplay will be deep and skill-testing.
As far as Constructed goes, this set is steaming hot dog garbage. There's a few more conditional removal spells, a couple splashy mythics that are probably playable, a bunch of terrible narrow combo enablers, and that's about it. I don't think this is really such a bad thing since I'm going to be drafting this set rather than trying to play it in Standard, but it should be considered. Given that Wizards obviously designed and tested this set with Limited in mind I think it's still a success, but any argument for the Constructed playability of the set is going to be pretty thin.
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Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
As long as you're willing to judge this set and this block by its merits as a Limited-oriented set, it's awesome. The Limited format looks powerful and balanced, with every color offering multiple strategies and multiple good pairings with other colors. It will be a VERY rare draft that people will lack playables, and the strategic decisions involved in gameplay will be deep and skill-testing.
As far as Constructed goes, this set is steaming hot dog garbage. There's a few more conditional removal spells, a couple splashy mythics that are probably playable, a bunch of terrible narrow combo enablers, and that's about it. I don't think this is really such a bad thing since I'm going to be drafting this set rather than trying to play it in Standard, but it should be considered. Given that Wizards obviously designed and tested this set with Limited in mind I think it's still a success, but any argument for the Constructed playability of the set is going to be pretty thin.
The limited format in this block has been profoundly disappointing though.
You can't really play around anything because it's all raw creature pump.
"Well, if I don't block, I lose the race, and if I do block and he has something, I lose anyways" has characterized most of the play decisions I've faced with the limited environment.
Now control gets to run 8 D spheres. Plus this new one is less color intensive and uncommon. Purty good....It actually prompted me to revise the old idea of Sphere of Safety control. Thinking about posting this in deck discussion:
13
[2] Auramancer
[2] Heliod, God of the Sun
[2] Kiora, the Crashing Wave
[3] Kruphix's Insight
[4] Supreme Verdict
23
[4] Sphere of Safety
[4] Detention Sphere
[4] Banishing Light
[4] Oppressive Rays
[4] Dictate of Kruphix
[3] Font of Fortunes
24
[4] Hallowed Fountain
[3] Temple Garden
[2] Breeding Pool
[4] Temple of Enlightenment
[2] Temple of Mystery
[2] Temple of Plenty
[2] Mana Confluence
[2] Plains
[2] Island
[1] Forest
The name of the game is stall, stall, stall. I cant think of any aggressive decks that would match up favorably here. Use your lower cost enchantments to Remove or nueter everything that threatens your life, then - after you have a bunch out - drop Sphere of Safety to bring attacking options to a screeching halt. Heliod is technically one of my wincons, but his real purpose is being an indestructable enchantment that makes enchantments.
I want, so, so, so, so badly to fit Eidolon of Blossoms here but I just cannot justify its double g cost. You could take the Sphere of Safety concept into a more prominant GW direction and rock 4 of em but you'd lose a lot of field control and draw power - mainly dictate (mandatory 4 of).
I thought long and hard about a real wincon and my eyes fell on Kiora. She was made and printed for stall type decks and the ultimate is actually very quick to reach when your opponent has no ways of really attacking.
Hell right. Many of the rares in JOU are combat tricks.
I think it's right for a Standard player to complaint when he/she isn't getting the goods. After all, they pay good money to have a decent and diverse meta and cardpool. THS block has provided much of the rubbish. Just wait till RTR block rotates. One will see how much suffering THS block will cause.
I'm fairly sure JOU covers both of these bases. What, specifically, is it missing?
It doesn't have any devotion cards other than gods or any cheaper permanents with 3 colored mana symbols in their mana costs. It doesn't have any strong enchantment support. It doesn't have any way to easily use Inspired. It doesn't have enough ramp for Monstrosity. It also only has a few cards that will see play in Modern/Legacy (about as many as Dragon's Maze). Those are the problems.
I for my part would like to know how Val knows that there aren't any cards that will affect Modern in this set when he and nobody else outside of WOTC has played with the set yet. To me all this sounds pretty much only like speculation. Condemnation of a set based on expectation rather than of actual value that has been affirmed by testing it out. It is also a pattern that I see repeated with every single set from many regular users on this board.
People said that with Born of the Gods and Dragon's Maze too. What cards do you think will be good (I am guessing that Eidolon of Rhetoric and Eidolon of the Great Revel will be good, as well as possibly Athreos)?
I for my part would like to know how Val knows that there aren't any cards that will affect Modern in this set when he and nobody else outside of WOTC has played with the set yet. To me all this sounds pretty much only like speculation. Condemnation of a set based on expectation rather than of actual value that has been affirmed by testing it out. It is also a pattern that I see repeated with every single set from many regular users on this board.
This is the same excuse people came up with in BNG. Its fairly safe to gauge what cards will have an impact in modern or not. What archetypes does the card play with? Does it have evasion or provide immediate value? Is it aggressively costed? Are there any broken synergies? You can already filter 95% of the cards and keep a 5% of maybes/ehs.
Yes, it is "fairly safe". However, that is far less of an emphasis than the absolute statements that Valanarch likes to engage in. Every set in this block has some Modern playable cards. Anger of the Gods, Thoughtseize, Brimaz, Courser if Kruphix, Nykthos, etc. Even from this set I expect some cards like Eidolon of the Great Revel to find their place, and the only reason that some cards like for example Chained to the Rocks aren't being played is because Modern is already such a stuffed and powerful format it is just outperformed by other cards that already exist within it. If Path to Exile doesn't exist, Chained to the Rocks is a playable card.
While the block has some Modern playables, it still has provided less than every block of all time (even if you only count the first 2 sets of each block). Also, Thoughtseize doesn't count as it is a reprint that was already Modern-legal.
And therein really lies the crux of the problem. It seems to me that power-gamers like Valanarch do not understand that actually fulfilling their wishes in making cards powerful enough for Modern and Eternal formats is a hard thing to do, and every time WOTC actually manages to do so they make it harder for themselves to do so the next time as the power level again grows. As a player basis we must understand that as well and notice that that is the reason when Modern-playable cards are being released less and less frequently. It isn't necessarily that the set itself is bad, or all the cards in it are weak, but that those cards are simply not strong enough.
If it is so hard to affect other formats, then how has every block had more cards that Modern/Legacy playable right now? Shouldn't some of them have been invalidated by later sets? Yet still, those other blocks are much more powerful than Theros.
Rath Block-Aluren, Ancient Tomb, Boil, Burgeoning, Diabolic Edict, Dream Halls, Earthcraft, Goblin Bombardment, Humility, Lotus Petal, Mana Leak, Jackal Pup, Mind Over Matter, Mirri's Guile, Mox Diamond, Oath of Druids, Reanimate, Scroll Rack, Soul Warden, Survival of the Fittest, Mogg Fanatic, Mana Severance.
Don't forget Wasteland, Intuition, Hermit Druid, Lobotomy, Capsize, Forbid, and Reflecting Pool!
(Tempest block is my favorite old block)
Yes, it is "fairly safe". However, that is far less of an emphasis than the absolute statements that Valanarch likes to engage in. Every set in this block has some Modern playable cards. Anger of the Gods, Thoughtseize, Brimaz, Courser if Kruphix, Nykthos, etc. Even from this set I expect some cards like Eidolon of the Great Revel to find their place, and the only reason that some cards like for example Chained to the Rocks aren't being played is because Modern is already such a stuffed and powerful format it is just outperformed by other cards that already exist within it. If Path to Exile doesn't exist, Chained to the Rocks is a playable card.
And therein really lies the crux of the problem. It seems to me that power-gamers like Valanarch do not understand that actually fulfilling their wishes in making cards powerful enough for Modern and Eternal formats is a hard thing to do, and every time WOTC actually manages to do so they make it harder for themselves to do so the next time as the power level again grows. As a player basis we must understand that as well and notice that that is the reason when Modern-playable cards are being released less and less frequently. It isn't necessarily that the set itself is bad, or all the cards in it are weak, but that those cards are simply not strong enough.
This^^
If WotC were to add "new Modern staples" (read: powerful cards that add to already existing archetypes in the format) with every set, Magic would end up in an upward spiral of a power creep, which kills a TCG, because every new set invalidates an older set.
Correct if I'm wrong, but the last card that spawned a "new" Modern archetype, is Shrieking Affliction from M14 (8 Rack), right? So by that measure, RTR wasn't that good either.
Shrieking Affliction was in RTR. The last set that made an archetype competitive was Gatecrash with Gruul Zoo. Before that it was RTR with 8-Rack and WUx Control (one of the biggest criticisms of RTR for Modern is that it mostly was supporting existing archetypes). Then it was M13 with Eggs, Avacyn Restored with Kiki-Pod, Azorius Midrange, and Griselbrand Reanimator, Dark Ascension with WB Tokens, and Innistrad with WUR Delver, RUG Delver, UR Delver, 4C Gifts, WUR Midrange, and several other decks.
Maybe in a few years, Mono-something.devotion will be a thing in Modern and it will feature some cards from Theros block not being currently played in the format. It's not always the cards themselves, but also the environment and the "missing pieces".
Monogreen Devotion does seems some play, but it is a tier 3 deck.
Correct if I'm wrong, but the last card that spawned a "new" Modern archetype, is Shrieking Affliction from M14 (8 Rack), right? So by that measure, RTR wasn't that good either.
Okay. You are wrong. Shrieking Affliction is from RTR and not M14.
And to stay on topic, the problem with Magic is that there is still a power creep, but some people can't recognize it, mostly newer players who are used to it because it's all they've known. The creatures in Standard and Magic in general now are so absurdly powerful compared to what they used to be. It's not even close. Which is why I find it amusing how some people are like 'Oh my gosh they just can't have this powerful 1 or 2 mana removal'. Yeah, so it's okay for spells to suck these days, but it's completely fine to have 5/5s for 4 with no drawback and all upside, and 6/6 fliers for 4 with no drawback and all upside.
So really, Theros block is still on par to continue the power creep as it has been for some time. The reason why theres no 'Modern staples' is because the removal in Modern is actually not garbage like it is in Standard. Also, combo decks are a thing in Modern, so creatures as a whole even being as powerful as they are in Modern(Bob, Tarmogoyf, etc) are still not as big of a power creep/threat in Modern because of entirely different contexts. However, when you take combo out of standard, and good removal, and continue printing bomb creatures, you will get a skewed power creep every time. I find it laughable anyone could say Theros block is weak just because it doesn't have 'Modern staples', seeing as that's an entirely different format with different contexts.
Black got the worst font, 2 mana to play, then the mana of a gravedigger to do the same thing, without actually getting a creature on the field. Feast of dreams will be relevant in standard for a few more months, and that is one of the better cards because it is relevant right now. A crappier nightmare reprint. Extinguish all hop which will be nullified in the current standard, and pretty much only makes standard decks have a slightly better chance against non standard decks. In anything else it works as a pricier Damnation, and the mythic black got is too pricey to be decent.
King Macar is the one decent card, and even then he has to get tapped, and untap in order to activate his effect, so unless you combo around it you probably wont get anything from it.
The only thing that might have gotten slighted more is Green, but green got some land or enchantment destruction that will stand the test of time. Draw power for enchantment decks. Dictate of Karametra for 12 land on your turn 6, and getting the advantage of using it first over your opponent. The hydra broodmaster to make at least 6 extra 6/6 hydras, including his 13/13 body turn 7, and a centaur lord. They just got one less card than the rest, and they miss a mythic, which they kinda make up for in Ajani.
Overall, black got slighted more than any other color, and has been since the vampire tribe dropped in zendikar. Every color tends to get some decent cards and some trash cards, they can't all be gold. But if any color gets snubbed it's black.
Have you seen standard lately... cause there's a quite a lot black right now.
1. Thoughtseize is an extra two life, and 30 dollars, for a duress that can also discard creatures. Not bad, but the monetary aspect of it makes the card a lot harder to play, and not worth 120 dollars to fit a deck with them, so not all that.
You can purchase thoughtseize for $15 right now, half of what you said. Anyhow, complaining that a card is less good because it costs a lot is rather nonsensical considering a high price is usually the sign of a good card.
The claim that black is bad in standard is ridiculous because it is currently THE BEST DECK. Nothing more needs to be said here.
I find it funny that people here are complaining about black and white, when a black/white card is currently the most expensive card in the set...
I agree its almost calling Tarmogoyf garbage because a play set will run you at least 600 bucks right now easily.
@Comments about black:
Right now black is by far the most powerful color in standard period, mono-black devotion is putting up constant numbers and mono-black aggro is also a very strong deck that can win a lot of games.
So Black has not one but two decks in standard right now that are both mono-black, those complaining about a lack of black cards have to be joking. This set may not be the best set ever for black, but black's cup has runneth over lately period.
Aegis of the gods is definitely an anti thoughtseize card for standard. Its awkward that its a two drop though. Probably would be OP at a one drop anyway. If 8-rack ever becomes super strong in Modern, you may see it there too. Not entirely sure.
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Modern:
Affinity
EDH:
Rhys (Tokens)
Karrthus (Dragons)
Bruna (Auras OP)
Right now black is by far the most powerful color in standard period, mono-black devotion is putting up constant numbers and mono-black aggro is also a very strong deck that can win a lot of games.
So Black has not one but two decks in standard right now that are both mono-black, those complaining about a lack of black cards have to be joking. This set may not be the best set ever for black, but black's cup has runneth over lately period.
Seriously, some of these folks are unbelievably clueless.
"Black sucks because Avacyn beats Griselbrand in a fight."
"Black sucks because Rule of Law Guy might see Eternal play" (no, not really).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The perfect example is Kamigawa block which was at the time widely considered one of the weakest blocks ever (being between original Mirrodin and original Ravnica blocks didn't help) and which had a minimal impact on the standard format (much less than Theros where devotion based decks have at different times taken over standard). However if you only looked at Kamigawa's eternal playables then it would end up very high on the list of blocks with the most impact on eternal formats.
Not to mention that many cards which succeed in eternal formats often aren't even all that great in standard, take Forked Bolt for example it saw next to no play in standard but then went onto see a decent amount of play in legacy. Or the dredge strategy, not a powerhouse in standard by any means but went on to be a player in formats like extended and legacy (and something the DCI fears in modern enough to banhammer key cards).
Machius proudly supports R_E's right to Rumour!
If I recall correctly, Dredge was a powerful deck in Ravnica-Time Spiral Standard. Also, how would you judge the power-level of a block if not by its lasting legacy?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
MTGO Nick: neonordnance
LGS: Dream Wizards in Rockville, MD
My standards are merely strong support for the themes of a block and 4-5 cards for Modern. Is that really too much to ask?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Most decks won't even have 5-6 cards in their hand on turn 4.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
MTGO Nick: neonordnance
LGS: Dream Wizards in Rockville, MD
This is the same excuse people came up with in BNG. Its fairly safe to gauge what cards will have an impact in modern or not. What archetypes does the card play with? Does it have evasion or provide immediate value? Is it aggressively costed? Are there any broken synergies? You can already filter 95% of the cards and keep a 5% of maybes/ehs.
Grislie is arguably the most powerful black creature of all time. Only Bob may have something to say about that.
As for Ava, she's no way closer to Stoneforge, Thalia, or even Ethersworn. She's definitely behind the queue.
Plus, no one is ever gonna talk about storybook/fantasy fights between those two. If you want, you can always ask Doug Beyer.
Criticism and "condemnation" of a set before it even comes out requires a discerning and experienced eye. I regard Val's comments on JOU to be a valid and strong one. One doesn't give a snap comment without having gone through all the years of research, drafts, game plays of magic.
We have complainers all the time, but when one complains/rants/argues with logic, passion and concern about magic, I think it is right to take a step back and listen.
It is likely that a player of 2 years or less experience of Magic will enjoy a THS block. It is less likely for an old fogey like me to enjoy a THS block. I rate a block's quality on its limited, standard and eternal impact. And THS block, I can assure many padawans here, that it's only good for limited.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Don't forget Wasteland, Intuition, Hermit Druid, Lobotomy, Capsize, Forbid, and Reflecting Pool!
(Tempest block is my favorite old block)
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
(Jadajada, I know it's in context with limited and Monstrosity, but still it's ridiculous)
Okay. You are wrong. Shrieking Affliction is from RTR and not M14.
And to stay on topic, the problem with Magic is that there is still a power creep, but some people can't recognize it, mostly newer players who are used to it because it's all they've known. The creatures in Standard and Magic in general now are so absurdly powerful compared to what they used to be. It's not even close. Which is why I find it amusing how some people are like 'Oh my gosh they just can't have this powerful 1 or 2 mana removal'. Yeah, so it's okay for spells to suck these days, but it's completely fine to have 5/5s for 4 with no drawback and all upside, and 6/6 fliers for 4 with no drawback and all upside.
So really, Theros block is still on par to continue the power creep as it has been for some time. The reason why theres no 'Modern staples' is because the removal in Modern is actually not garbage like it is in Standard. Also, combo decks are a thing in Modern, so creatures as a whole even being as powerful as they are in Modern(Bob, Tarmogoyf, etc) are still not as big of a power creep/threat in Modern because of entirely different contexts. However, when you take combo out of standard, and good removal, and continue printing bomb creatures, you will get a skewed power creep every time. I find it laughable anyone could say Theros block is weak just because it doesn't have 'Modern staples', seeing as that's an entirely different format with different contexts.
For the TL;DR people: Lets compare Iwamori of the Open Fist to Polukranos, and tell me there isn't a power creep in Standard/Theros.
I mostly agree with but you are wrong in thinking that the removal in standard sucks.
Uw/x Control and Mono-black are so good because they have so powerful and versatile removal
As far as Constructed goes, this set is steaming hot dog garbage. There's a few more conditional removal spells, a couple splashy mythics that are probably playable, a bunch of terrible narrow combo enablers, and that's about it. I don't think this is really such a bad thing since I'm going to be drafting this set rather than trying to play it in Standard, but it should be considered. Given that Wizards obviously designed and tested this set with Limited in mind I think it's still a success, but any argument for the Constructed playability of the set is going to be pretty thin.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
The limited format in this block has been profoundly disappointing though.
You can't really play around anything because it's all raw creature pump.
"Well, if I don't block, I lose the race, and if I do block and he has something, I lose anyways" has characterized most of the play decisions I've faced with the limited environment.
13
[2] Auramancer
[2] Heliod, God of the Sun
[2] Kiora, the Crashing Wave
[3] Kruphix's Insight
[4] Supreme Verdict
23
[4] Sphere of Safety
[4] Detention Sphere
[4] Banishing Light
[4] Oppressive Rays
[4] Dictate of Kruphix
[3] Font of Fortunes
24
[4] Hallowed Fountain
[3] Temple Garden
[2] Breeding Pool
[4] Temple of Enlightenment
[2] Temple of Mystery
[2] Temple of Plenty
[2] Mana Confluence
[2] Plains
[2] Island
[1] Forest
SB:
[3] Domestication
[4] Gainsay
[2] Essence Scatter
[3] Negate
[1] Indestructability
[2] Pacifism
The name of the game is stall, stall, stall. I cant think of any aggressive decks that would match up favorably here. Use your lower cost enchantments to Remove or nueter everything that threatens your life, then - after you have a bunch out - drop Sphere of Safety to bring attacking options to a screeching halt. Heliod is technically one of my wincons, but his real purpose is being an indestructable enchantment that makes enchantments.
I want, so, so, so, so badly to fit Eidolon of Blossoms here but I just cannot justify its double g cost. You could take the Sphere of Safety concept into a more prominant GW direction and rock 4 of em but you'd lose a lot of field control and draw power - mainly dictate (mandatory 4 of).
I thought long and hard about a real wincon and my eyes fell on Kiora. She was made and printed for stall type decks and the ultimate is actually very quick to reach when your opponent has no ways of really attacking.
I think it's right for a Standard player to complaint when he/she isn't getting the goods. After all, they pay good money to have a decent and diverse meta and cardpool. THS block has provided much of the rubbish. Just wait till RTR block rotates. One will see how much suffering THS block will cause.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
It doesn't have any devotion cards other than gods or any cheaper permanents with 3 colored mana symbols in their mana costs. It doesn't have any strong enchantment support. It doesn't have any way to easily use Inspired. It doesn't have enough ramp for Monstrosity. It also only has a few cards that will see play in Modern/Legacy (about as many as Dragon's Maze). Those are the problems.
People said that with Born of the Gods and Dragon's Maze too. What cards do you think will be good (I am guessing that Eidolon of Rhetoric and Eidolon of the Great Revel will be good, as well as possibly Athreos)?
While the block has some Modern playables, it still has provided less than every block of all time (even if you only count the first 2 sets of each block). Also, Thoughtseize doesn't count as it is a reprint that was already Modern-legal.
If it is so hard to affect other formats, then how has every block had more cards that Modern/Legacy playable right now? Shouldn't some of them have been invalidated by later sets? Yet still, those other blocks are much more powerful than Theros.
Thanks!
Shrieking Affliction was in RTR. The last set that made an archetype competitive was Gatecrash with Gruul Zoo. Before that it was RTR with 8-Rack and WUx Control (one of the biggest criticisms of RTR for Modern is that it mostly was supporting existing archetypes). Then it was M13 with Eggs, Avacyn Restored with Kiki-Pod, Azorius Midrange, and Griselbrand Reanimator, Dark Ascension with WB Tokens, and Innistrad with WUR Delver, RUG Delver, UR Delver, 4C Gifts, WUR Midrange, and several other decks.
Monogreen Devotion does seems some play, but it is a tier 3 deck.
Every block is good in the right context. However, other blocks were powerful in both Standard and other formats.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Have you seen standard lately... cause there's a quite a lot black right now.
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I agree its almost calling Tarmogoyf garbage because a play set will run you at least 600 bucks right now easily.
@Comments about black:
Right now black is by far the most powerful color in standard period, mono-black devotion is putting up constant numbers and mono-black aggro is also a very strong deck that can win a lot of games.
So Black has not one but two decks in standard right now that are both mono-black, those complaining about a lack of black cards have to be joking. This set may not be the best set ever for black, but black's cup has runneth over lately period.
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Modern:
Affinity
EDH:
Rhys (Tokens)
Karrthus (Dragons)
Bruna (Auras OP)
Seriously, some of these folks are unbelievably clueless.
"Black sucks because Avacyn beats Griselbrand in a fight."
"Black sucks because Rule of Law Guy might see Eternal play" (no, not really).
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
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