So as Journey into Nyx unfolds during our beloved spoiler season, I figured I would finally break down and discuss my current understanding of what Wizards is attempting to do with two longstanding strategies of mine: Dredge and Reanimator. My favorite color is black, followed by blue and green. The Golgari have always been a personal favorite, along with Dredge, and I have always loved reanimator. Okay so I'll try to drive my point across with simplicity.
I feel that Wizards has recently been punishing the graveyard and graveyard-based cards and strategies. Although we have seen Exile effects across the history of magic, it has been more numerous and destructive in the past few years. My belief is that Wizards is afraid that graveyard strategies are far too strong and can be too powerful. Yet I belief they could be fair, fun, and still good even if they didn't have to Exile them.
Does anyone else feel like Wizards has been really killing black and black/green reanimator/dredge strategies? I know there are variants of the decks that still work, but it seems like Wizards has been really "Exiling" anything that they're afraid of coming back from the graveyard. Our best reanimation spell from this block costs a whopping seven mana to cast. Rescue from the Underworld exiles itself, which seems a little paranoid of Wizards. Now I know that a lot of these cards would be too good if they didn't exile, namely Whip of Erebos, but my question is this: What happened to the good old "Return target creature from a graveyard to the battlefield?" or even "Return target creature from your graveyard to your hand?"
Why does Wizards exile everything? To me, it seems like they're severely crippling what might be black's most favored and iconic abilities because they're afraid of the power. But when you think about it, would the cards ever be that powerful? Let's say this. If Nyx Weaver sacrificed itself instead of exiled itself, and could only return another creature or enchantment from the graveyard to your hand, would that be too good? Really Wizards?
I just want to know if I am the only one who feels this way, and if so, or if not so, what do other people think about it?
Wasn't Reanimator one of Standard's strongest decks last year? Gravecrawler, the undying mechanic, and flashback were very commonly played. Deathrite Shaman was one of the most powerful cards that came from RTR. I think this is a nonissue -- this current block just seems like it doesn't fit well for your tastes, but the next one might.
I'd say it's part of their on-going hate campaign against combo rather than being specifically targetted at dredge. Most things that look even remotely repeatable get hit with huge mana costs or exile clauses. I agree that it's a bad design direction though.
One of the biggest problems for dredge-type decks in Standard at the moment is that the format has a ton of powerful graveyard hate. That's probably an aftereffect of Unburial Rites being a bit too nuts, but it makes things rough for any current reanimator decks trying to run on less powerful cards.
This is just the pendulum swinging: Theros is not meant to be a reanimator block. In future blocks reanimator spells might pop up with more power, just right now they're not so good.
I might point out though that there is a tournament viable GB "dredge" strategy in Standard.
Sure, there's no Reanimate or even Zombify, but that's because WotC has realized that cheap unconditional Reanimation can be far too powerful, and limits the ceiling of creatures that they can print in surrounding sets, especially if "Dredge" and Looting cards are also good. Because they like to print Fatties and "Dredge"-type cards, Reanimation spells have taken a slight hit.
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Okay.... Lets think here about how absolutely broken reanimator strategys can be. Lets also think about how rediculous the actual Dredge mechanic can be. If I'm not mistaken, Dredge is still a viable deck in Eternal formats. Yes, I think Wizards is scared. Even Drakmor Salvage creates a rediculous combo with Seismic Assault. Why do you think Golgari got such a bad ability this time around? It's the same reason Felhide Spiritbinder is so hard to break, they don't want another Kiki-Jiki or Splinter Twin. Not only is the Inspired mechanic hard to utilize anyway, but they made it cost extra mana to activate! It's likely not designs fault, it's probably development. If they make the game less "breakable" it becomes more interactive. And that maintains the "spirit" of the game.
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I'm not saying that Reanimator strategies and Dredge strategies can't be broken. I know they can be good. I'm primarily speaking about sets that are being released as of current, so standard I guess you could say, or even modern. If you look at the trend, there has been a lot more cards that exile themselves to prevent shenanigans. Some cards I can understand why they do it, others not so much. I feel like part of the reason why the graveyard was so fun before was because it was a repeatable source of card advantage as long as you had the dedicated deck. Now it seems like development is really limiting them.
For instance, Golgari in RTR block got a really lame mechanic. Although their original mechanic was really good, I still think they could have made something that is a little more cyclic in nature (like te Golgari enjoy) that didn't require exiling.
Anyhow. What I'm trying to say is I wish they would stop making so many exiling cards, but rather just make less powerful reanimation spells or dredge effects instead. They should learn from their mistakes and not make them as broken as they were in the past, not just simply throw exiling into the clause to make it an easy fix. That way it doesn't harm a color, strategy, and deck type because of it.
I agree Theros is not a graveyard/Reanimator based set though.
Last format and the one before it were heavily graveyard centric with Junk Reanimator, Junk Aristocrats, and Solar Flare.
As already stated, Theros block is not a graveyard block (despite all the support released for it), so you shouldn't be expecting anything to powerful for graveyard-based decks. What HAS been released (Whip of Erebos, Obzedat's Aid) is the kind of support you would expect to see at best.
They're going to have to print exile some times. That zone is just as much a part of the game as the graveyard. Might as well be in a non-graveyard-based block. And it's not even supported that much here either.
Just to reiterate, how can there be a competitive deck right now that utilizes the GY (in a rather Golgari-flavored kinda way might I add) if WOTC is doing too much to hamstring decks like that?
To go along with something else people have already said, last standard they even had Rest in Peace, one of the best pieces of graveyard hate ever created, and Reanimator was still one of the best decks to beat.
I think they are doing a pretty good job of doing exactly what you're asking for: i.e. trying to make it work w/out breaking it.
What cards are you thinking of specifically, Creedmoor?
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"Until you have lived as a statue, do not talk to me of pigeons."
—Karn, silver golem
A lot of the recent (RTR) graveyard hate was for theseguys, not dredge. Some of it is intended to hinder Tarmogoyf as well, and dredge is just a casuality of the GY wars.
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Standard
>implying Modern
>implying Legacy UWMiracles/Countertop EDH UUUMemnarch, Steal your grillUUU RWUZedruu, Queen of ChaosRWU GWUBRReaper KingGWUBR My Trades
Yes, that's also clearly why they made Innistrad a block revolving around the graveyard with cards like Unburial Rites, lots of Flashback, Gravecrawler etc. - all because they really hate graveyard strategies. Sorry man, but that's just the mind slug inside of that tinfoil hat getting the better of you.
I don't know, man. It's a slap to the face that wotc doesn't cater specifically to me.
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“A man's at odds to know his mind cause his mind is aught he has to know it with. He can know his heart, but he dont want to. Rightly so. Best not to look in there. It aint the heart of a creature that is bound in the way that God has set for it. You can find meanness in the least of creatures, but when God made man the devil was at his elbow. A creature that can do anything. Make a machine. And a machine to make the machine. And evil that can run itself a thousand years, no need to tend it.”
― Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West
After seeing Magma Spray and Agent of Erebos you may be right. There's honestly not enough graveyard shenanigans in all of standard to warrant that much hate.
After seeing Magma Spray and Agent of Erebos you may be right. There's honestly not enough graveyard shenanigans in all of standard to warrant that much hate.
Actually there are. Junk Reanimator is currently the best deck in Block Constructed.
After seeing Magma Spray and Agent of Erebos you may be right. There's honestly not enough graveyard shenanigans in all of standard to warrant that much hate.
Actually there are. Junk Reanimator is currently the best deck in Block Constructed.
After seeing Magma Spray and Agent of Erebos you may be right. There's honestly not enough graveyard shenanigans in all of standard to warrant that much hate.
Actually there are. Junk Reanimator is currently the best deck in Block Constructed.
No. Junk Reanimator constitutes upwards of 40% of the current meta. Some stats on that site do not account for the current meta, as this site does: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/block.
Let's look at the most recent block events. In the events listed by WotC this week, from Sunday to Wednesday, Junk Reanimator has 4-0'd 8 times in 4 events. It is popular at least in part because it is strong. It may not be format defining, but it certainly fares well enough against Bx aggro and UBx control to be far and away the most-used and best-placing deck online in the past month.
Anyway, the power level of that deck is besides the point, as a 2-damage exile spell is a blank against that deck. TBH though I was looking for more Agent of Erebos-type cards in JOU to interact with the graveyard and combat Reanimator in THS Block.
After seeing Magma Spray and Agent of Erebos you may be right. There's honestly not enough graveyard shenanigans in all of standard to warrant that much hate.
Actually there are. Junk Reanimator is currently the best deck in Block Constructed.
No. Junk Reanimator constitutes upwards of 40% of the current meta. Some stats on that site do not account for the current meta, as this site does: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/block.
Let's look at the most recent block events. In the events listed by WotC this week, from Sunday to Wednesday, Junk Reanimator has 4-0'd 8 times in 4 events. It is popular at least in part because it is strong. It may not be format defining, but it certainly fares well enough against Bx aggro and UBx control to be far and away the most-used and best-placing deck online in the past month.
Anyway, the power level of that deck is besides the point, as a 2-damage exile spell is a blank against that deck. TBH though I was looking for more Agent of Erebos-type cards in JOU to interact with the graveyard and combat Reanimator in THS Block.
so I am wrong
that's still a lot of hate just for a block that isn't even graveyard-based. it's just a big buzzkill towards standard BG decks. they think it's fine just to hose mono blue and this underdog BG standard deck.
I feel that Wizards has recently been punishing the graveyard and graveyard-based cards and strategies. Although we have seen Exile effects across the history of magic, it has been more numerous and destructive in the past few years. My belief is that Wizards is afraid that graveyard strategies are far too strong and can be too powerful. Yet I belief they could be fair, fun, and still good even if they didn't have to Exile them.
Does anyone else feel like Wizards has been really killing black and black/green reanimator/dredge strategies? I know there are variants of the decks that still work, but it seems like Wizards has been really "Exiling" anything that they're afraid of coming back from the graveyard. Our best reanimation spell from this block costs a whopping seven mana to cast. Rescue from the Underworld exiles itself, which seems a little paranoid of Wizards. Now I know that a lot of these cards would be too good if they didn't exile, namely Whip of Erebos, but my question is this: What happened to the good old "Return target creature from a graveyard to the battlefield?" or even "Return target creature from your graveyard to your hand?"
Why does Wizards exile everything? To me, it seems like they're severely crippling what might be black's most favored and iconic abilities because they're afraid of the power. But when you think about it, would the cards ever be that powerful? Let's say this. If Nyx Weaver sacrificed itself instead of exiled itself, and could only return another creature or enchantment from the graveyard to your hand, would that be too good? Really Wizards?
I just want to know if I am the only one who feels this way, and if so, or if not so, what do other people think about it?
Discuss!
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Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
One of the biggest problems for dredge-type decks in Standard at the moment is that the format has a ton of powerful graveyard hate. That's probably an aftereffect of Unburial Rites being a bit too nuts, but it makes things rough for any current reanimator decks trying to run on less powerful cards.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/82966633137/in-one-of-your-podcasts-you-talked-about-why-delve-is
This is just the pendulum swinging: Theros is not meant to be a reanimator block. In future blocks reanimator spells might pop up with more power, just right now they're not so good.
I might point out though that there is a tournament viable GB "dredge" strategy in Standard.
Also, they can exile our enchantments all they want. They still will have to deal with a regenerating Lotleth Troll or a gigantic Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord when he sacrifices a monstrous Nemesis of Mortals.
Sure, there's no Reanimate or even Zombify, but that's because WotC has realized that cheap unconditional Reanimation can be far too powerful, and limits the ceiling of creatures that they can print in surrounding sets, especially if "Dredge" and Looting cards are also good. Because they like to print Fatties and "Dredge"-type cards, Reanimation spells have taken a slight hit.
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For instance, Golgari in RTR block got a really lame mechanic. Although their original mechanic was really good, I still think they could have made something that is a little more cyclic in nature (like te Golgari enjoy) that didn't require exiling.
Anyhow. What I'm trying to say is I wish they would stop making so many exiling cards, but rather just make less powerful reanimation spells or dredge effects instead. They should learn from their mistakes and not make them as broken as they were in the past, not just simply throw exiling into the clause to make it an easy fix. That way it doesn't harm a color, strategy, and deck type because of it.
I agree Theros is not a graveyard/Reanimator based set though.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
To go along with something else people have already said, last standard they even had Rest in Peace, one of the best pieces of graveyard hate ever created, and Reanimator was still one of the best decks to beat.
I think they are doing a pretty good job of doing exactly what you're asking for: i.e. trying to make it work w/out breaking it.
What cards are you thinking of specifically, Creedmoor?
—Karn, silver golem
>implying
Modern
>implying
Legacy
UWMiracles/Countertop
EDH
UUUMemnarch, Steal your grillUUU
RWUZedruu, Queen of ChaosRWU
GWUBRReaper KingGWUBR
My Trades
I don't know, man. It's a slap to the face that wotc doesn't cater specifically to me.
― Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West
Actually there are. Junk Reanimator is currently the best deck in Block Constructed.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=BL
is this a credible site to prove you wrong?
No. Junk Reanimator constitutes upwards of 40% of the current meta. Some stats on that site do not account for the current meta, as this site does: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/block.
Let's look at the most recent block events. In the events listed by WotC this week, from Sunday to Wednesday, Junk Reanimator has 4-0'd 8 times in 4 events. It is popular at least in part because it is strong. It may not be format defining, but it certainly fares well enough against Bx aggro and UBx control to be far and away the most-used and best-placing deck online in the past month.
Anyway, the power level of that deck is besides the point, as a 2-damage exile spell is a blank against that deck. TBH though I was looking for more Agent of Erebos-type cards in JOU to interact with the graveyard and combat Reanimator in THS Block.
so I am wrong
that's still a lot of hate just for a block that isn't even graveyard-based. it's just a big buzzkill towards standard BG decks. they think it's fine just to hose mono blue and this underdog BG standard deck.