Have to believe this card will be very powerful. I think it's ultimate utility is semi-controlling the strength of your opponent's draws, NOT getting any type of card advantage, though she is pretty gross with spirit of the labyrinth or notion thief.
Now I think the true utility of this card is threefold.
1. You are basically scrying on your opponent's deck. Imagine if a card gave you that effect every turn for 1 mana, attached to a body.
2. You are getting more scries on your own deck. You look at the top of your deck, if you don't like the card, get rid of it.
3. With the combination of the other two this can be powerful card draw.
Now the problem with the first 2 is obviously when they conflict with each other. I think if you set up your other scrying appropriately (lands, thassa) this card will be very powerful. Maybe it's not there. I mean if you leave something you'd normally scry away on top because you're going to mill your opponent, you can't control what their top card will be and could easily be a land or redundant spell they don't need, helping them to draw something relevant.
Outside of it's two combo creature, I don't believe we have the cards to abuse with this properly.
No, it actually DOES deny your opponent a particular card. If you mill that card it isn't coming back. You've eliminated that card from your opponent's deck. It's similar to how Sword of Body and Mind worked against Valakut. Once you mill a Valakut or two that card isn't coming back.
And yes, I understand your point that your opponent is going to draw a card regardless and it could be that card anyway HOWEVER chances are lower since you just removed one of the four copies of it. Like I said in my post, just above yours: you're reducing your opponent's card quality while improving yours over the course of the game. That's not zero value, especially since you can draw cards off of it. (Not sure if you read my post but all that is in there.)
Remember, milling by itself provides no advantage. As long as nobody knows what cards are where in his deck, and as long as you don't have enough mill to actually kill, milling your opponent for one on average neither hurts nor helps him. Yes, if you reveal a powerful card and get rid of that, that feels good, but it's exactly offset by the times when you reveal a weak card and power him past it. Zero value on average. I'm not saying that this effect is weak, I just want to make sure we understand exactly what it does. It helps you. It does not hurt your opponent. If you ignore your side of the table and just look at the effect it has on your opponent, you'll see that it either makes him draw a card (good for him), or mills him for one (neutral for him). This distinction is important because cards that control (and reduce the quality of) your opponent's draws are good for putting away a game once you're ahead, but this card does not do that. If you want to use it to try to deny your opponent cards, options, or outs in any way, then you're fundamentally misunderstanding it, because it's actually impossible for it to function like that. Because the cards will never remain on top, and because the top and bottom cards of the library are interchangeable as long as nobody knows what either of them are, it is accurate to say that it would work exactly the same if it revealed the bottom card of the library instead. If it did that, it would be much easier to see that you can't hurt your opponent's draws with it.
Of course, as before, all of the above assumes that no library manipulation has been used, and the locations of cards in players libraries are unknown.
tl;dr: You cannot deny your opponent anything with this card. The effect it has on each player is either positive or neutral.
I'm not sure how you are misunderstanding this but Mystics ability really can deny your opponent key cards.
When you activate Mystic you get to look at the card your opponent would draw next and you have the option of milling that card. If you are ahead of your opponent and they are looking for a specific out (let's say they need a wrath effect like Supreme Verdict or Polkuranos, World Eater) and you reveal that card and choose to mill it you have denied them that card and replaced that draw with a random draw (in exactly the same way Jace the Mindsculptor's +2 fateseal ability does when you place a card on the bottom, or Vendilion Clique's enter play ability does with cards in their hand). Yes, the random draw can still be excellent for them (maybe even the same card) but you have turned a definite draw into a random draw lowering your opponents chances of getting a specific card.
There's also the cases when people are looking for a singleton, for example UW/x control decks with singleton AEtherling and/or Elixir of Immortality, if you can reveal and mill something like that (particularly the Elixir) you can screw over a deck's entire long game strategy.
Maybe what you mean is that denying something like common like lands/an aggro deck's creatures etc. isn't going to happen. If so you are right after all constant mill does nothing to the odds and milling a specific type only to choose draw at other times just negates the effect. But I don't think anyone was ever claiming that was the case (which is why this is much worse than JTMS's fateseal as a softlock).
Lordatog: While you're correct in that random mill is impact-neutral, that does depend (as you note) on library manipulation not being around.
And Theros has Scry in it, which directly impacts the value of 'random milling' cards.
Scry 1 cards become less valuale against the Mystic unless they also draw the card in question because you can't keep the card if you want it.
Let's say you are the player with the Scry 1 effect (most relevant ATM I believe is Thassa in Constructed). It triggers (for Thassa, in your upkeep). You have two options: leave or ditch.
1) Leave scenario: In this case, the Mystic's player should use its ability before you can draw the card, because at worst it's random mill. At best, he just got rid of one of your answers. So your Scry did nothing.
2) Ditch scenario: In this case, the Mystic's player may choose to use its ability before you draw, but maybe not. In this case, he has no knowledge of your knowledge of the top of your deck.
Higher scry values are less susceptible to this, and some very interesting subgames can develop from them. (E.g., if one of the two cards is one you want, do you put it on top or the second-from-top? Also note that in the cases that you leave only one card on top, that devolves to case 1) above.
Such an interesting card, particularly in this block.
When you activate Mystic you get to look at the card your opponent would draw next and you have the option of milling that card. If you are ahead of your opponent and they are looking for a specific out (let's say they need a wrath effect like Supreme Verdict or Polkuranos, World Eater) and you reveal that card and choose to mill it you have denied them that card and replaced that draw with a random draw (in exactly the same way Jace the Mindsculptor's +2 fateseal ability does when you place a card on the bottom, or Vendilion Clique's enter play ability does with cards in their hand). Yes, the random draw can still be excellent for them (maybe even the same card) but you have turned a definite draw into a random draw lowering your opponents chances of getting a specific card.
If the ability hits the specific card they want, then you can take it away from them. If it doesn't hit that specific card, however, then you're digging them one card deeper, and possibly causing them to draw it when they otherwise wouldn't. These effects cancel each other out exactly. If your opponent is looking for one particular card, then their odds of getting it are exactly the same whether you use the ability or not. Some math:
Suppose they have 20 cards in their deck and 1 copy of what they're looking for.
No Mystic: 1/20 chance of drawing an out.
With Mystic: 1/20 chance of hitting their card, giving them no chance. 19/20 chance of hitting something else, increasing their chances to 1/19.
Overall odds for the Mystic scenario: 1/20 * 0 + 19/20 * 1/19 = 0 + 1/20 = 1/20, exactly the same as if you hadn't activated it.
Suppose they have 20 cards in their deck and 2 copies of what they're looking for.
No Mystic: 1/10 chance of drawing an out.
With Mystic: 1/10 chance of hitting their card, reducing their chance to 1/19. 9/10 chance of hitting something else, increasing their chances to 2/19.
Overall odds for the Mystic scenario: 1/10 * 1/19 + 9/10 * 2/19 = 1/190 + 18/190 = 19/190 = 1/10, exactly the same as if you hadn't activated it.
I like the card. It seems powerful, and can give you card quality advantage over the course of the game. It's also good against scry, and can have marginal value against tutoring effects, much like mill does. However, it cannot control your opponent's draws like JTMS can. You cannot use it while ahead to deny your opponent the cards he needs to get back into the game. If you had the option to leave the card on top then it could do these things, but the fact that it removes the top card either way means that the Mystic by itself can never reduce your opponent's card quality.
That's kind of missing the point. I'm not saying that the Mystic's ability is weaker or stronger than Jace's +2, I'm saying that they do completely different things and are in no way alternatives for each other.
I tried Dakra Mystic in Modern Merfolk as a 4-of (pulled flex slots, kept all Cursecatchers). I tried it against decks with blocking creatures (Jund, Pod, Faeries, Tokens, Tempo Twin, UWR Midrange, GW Hatebears, Soul Sisters) so I wouldn't just be swinging with Dakra.
Dakra turned out to be fairly powerful. If things were going well (I had lords that stuck), I swung with Dakra and closed games out. If things weren't going so well (I can't stick lords, they have large blockers), I tapped Dakra and gambled for outs.
Most of the time, I pitched the cards Dakra flipped (notably, if they flip instant-speed removal and I flip a lord, I ditch both to avoid tempo loss). But some of the time, I flipped outs and they didn't, and I was more likely to win those games.
Heck, I won games where Dakra never gave me cards but at least helped me cut through the chaff and into my outs (OK, slightly lowering opposing card quality while cutting through chaff helped).
Dakra didn't help as much against decks that got more unfair fairly fast (Twin was a big culprit--I lost a game where I kept denying them Twins but they out-tempo'd me with Exarchs and Goyfs--but Pod was also a culprit, and even Soul Sisters crashed in with big, fast Ajani's Pridemates and Dakra kept chump-blocking them and didn't draw outs fast enough).
But Dakra seemed to give my list a surprisingly good late-game for having only 4 3-drops (Merrow Reejerey), and it's fairly good at finding stall-breaking cards.
What I think is funny about this card is that it effectively does what the deck Top Control in Modern does, but on its own. Honestly... This might be a good fit for Top Control. Just another effect for the deck to control your opponents draws.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
About Mindslaver rulings:
Quote from ebcubs03 »
so if i am that player do i get to sleep with his girlfriend ?
The synergy this card has with Bane Alley Broker, Dimir Charm, Notion Thief, and to a lesser extent Duskmantle Seer is mind blowing. Yeah, its good by itself...but let's think outside the box. This card is broken good. Mark my words: standard is going to be redefined by this unassuming 1 drop uncommon.
The synergy this card has with Bane Alley Broker, Dimir Charm, Notion Thief, and to a lesser extent Duskmantle Seer is mind blowing. Yeah, its good by itself...but let's think outside the box. This card is broken good. Mark my words: standard is going to be redefined by this unassuming 1 drop uncommon.
I don't see any synergy with Bane Alley Broker at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
About Mindslaver rulings:
Quote from ebcubs03 »
so if i am that player do i get to sleep with his girlfriend ?
Could be viable in Mono-U. I'd be happy to play 2 in my current list. There are issues (it's harder to curve out with it, for one thing), but it seems bonkers against control.
The synergy this card has with Bane Alley Broker, Dimir Charm, Notion Thief, and to a lesser extent Duskmantle Seer is mind blowing. Yeah, its good by itself...but let's think outside the box. This card is broken good. Mark my words: standard is going to be redefined by this unassuming 1 drop uncommon.
I don't see any synergy with Bane Alley Broker at all.
Perhaps the triggers wouldn't work the way I'm picturing. Couldn't you activate Dakra Mystic, after the reveal, activate Bane Alley Broker to draw the card, then choose to pitch the cards into the GY (which would just be your opponent's?
The synergy this card has with Bane Alley Broker, Dimir Charm, Notion Thief, and to a lesser extent Duskmantle Seer is mind blowing. Yeah, its good by itself...but let's think outside the box. This card is broken good. Mark my words: standard is going to be redefined by this unassuming 1 drop uncommon.
I don't see any synergy with Bane Alley Broker at all.
Perhaps the triggers wouldn't work the way I'm picturing. Couldn't you activate Dakra Mystic, after the reveal, activate Bane Alley Broker to draw the card, then choose to pitch the cards into the GY (which would just be your opponent's?
once the ability is resolving you cant respond to it
Exactly. Dakra mystics ability is all one solid ability, it must resolve entirely before any other abilitys can resolve. So there is no way to respond to only part of the ability.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
About Mindslaver rulings:
Quote from ebcubs03 »
so if i am that player do i get to sleep with his girlfriend ?
Okay so I've been thinking about this, I'm literally hoping so much for them to reprint Lantern of Insight in JOU, it even fits flavor-wise with the set as it's sort of an anti-scry card even.
I could then build U/W Top Control with Codex Shredder, Pyxis, Lantern, Dakra Mystic, Spirit of the Labryinth, Trading Post, Verdict, the list goes on!
That sounds like soooo much fun! But idk, i think i could see them reprinting telepathy before Lantern. Maybe not that card exactly, but if that effect is on a card, i see it being an enchantment instead.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
About Mindslaver rulings:
Quote from ebcubs03 »
so if i am that player do i get to sleep with his girlfriend ?
That sounds like soooo much fun! But idk, i think i could see them reprinting telepathy before Lantern. Maybe not that card exactly, but if that effect is on a card, i see it being an enchantment instead.
Well I think it would make more sense given the Dictate series of "symmetrical effects" they're printing to have Dictate of Keranos (whose effect relies on the top of libraries) to cause both players to reveal the top of their libraries, maybe with an additional effect like each player gets to scry during the other player's end-step or something.
I've had fun playing this guy as a 3-of in a UG deck I'm running. He works well alongside Courser of Kruphix and Dictate of Kruphix. I've only done a little playtesting, but so far he functions with great utility. It's kind of an intangible value during the game. I especially like denying my opponent's land drops. Kiora's Follower is his best friend. At the very least he's useful for using that last bit of mana at your opponent's EOT. Also, you can chump against a fatty and use his ability pre-damage so he can accomplish more. I would definitely recommend at least trying this card to experience it's usefulness. Probably my favorite card of the set so far; I think his home is in GU.
I feel like counterspells, Thoughtseize, this Mystic, Dictate of Kruphix, and Notion Thief have, if nothing else, an interesting combination to control the game.
I think most people are looking at this card from this perspective: "Oh, look, if my opponent's revealed card is worse than mine, than I can draw a card!"
But with Thoughtseize, Brain Maggot, Duress and the like, I'm looking at this card with this perspective: "Oh, look, if my opponent's revealed card is something he needs, than I can prevent him from drawing it, and with hand destruction like Thoughtseize, I can make sure that he's unable to play anything meaningful this entire match."
I have been messing around with a b/u draw control deck. It is a lot of fun and would love to use something like this at FNM. Dakra is a lot of fun to play with and makes it hell for my opponent. Let me know what you think.
First: I think this card is incredibly interesting and there's been quite a lot of interesting interactions mentioned already.
Second: I'm really darn sad this didn't make it into the Derevi-EDH deck.
Third: I'd really love to play this against Courser of Kruphix.
- "Oh you've drawn your card and there's a land revealed there. It'd be a shame if someone were to let us both draw and let your Courser lose his chance to play it from lib for free. And in case you have another land tucked down there, then that's too bad but I most likely got value while you got a free Lay of the Land/Expedition Map."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Now I think the true utility of this card is threefold.
1. You are basically scrying on your opponent's deck. Imagine if a card gave you that effect every turn for 1 mana, attached to a body.
2. You are getting more scries on your own deck. You look at the top of your deck, if you don't like the card, get rid of it.
3. With the combination of the other two this can be powerful card draw.
Now the problem with the first 2 is obviously when they conflict with each other. I think if you set up your other scrying appropriately (lands, thassa) this card will be very powerful. Maybe it's not there. I mean if you leave something you'd normally scry away on top because you're going to mill your opponent, you can't control what their top card will be and could easily be a land or redundant spell they don't need, helping them to draw something relevant.
Outside of it's two combo creature, I don't believe we have the cards to abuse with this properly.
And yes, I understand your point that your opponent is going to draw a card regardless and it could be that card anyway HOWEVER chances are lower since you just removed one of the four copies of it. Like I said in my post, just above yours: you're reducing your opponent's card quality while improving yours over the course of the game. That's not zero value, especially since you can draw cards off of it. (Not sure if you read my post but all that is in there.)
I'm not sure how you are misunderstanding this but Mystics ability really can deny your opponent key cards.
When you activate Mystic you get to look at the card your opponent would draw next and you have the option of milling that card. If you are ahead of your opponent and they are looking for a specific out (let's say they need a wrath effect like Supreme Verdict or Polkuranos, World Eater) and you reveal that card and choose to mill it you have denied them that card and replaced that draw with a random draw (in exactly the same way Jace the Mindsculptor's +2 fateseal ability does when you place a card on the bottom, or Vendilion Clique's enter play ability does with cards in their hand). Yes, the random draw can still be excellent for them (maybe even the same card) but you have turned a definite draw into a random draw lowering your opponents chances of getting a specific card.
There's also the cases when people are looking for a singleton, for example UW/x control decks with singleton AEtherling and/or Elixir of Immortality, if you can reveal and mill something like that (particularly the Elixir) you can screw over a deck's entire long game strategy.
Maybe what you mean is that denying something like common like lands/an aggro deck's creatures etc. isn't going to happen. If so you are right after all constant mill does nothing to the odds and milling a specific type only to choose draw at other times just negates the effect. But I don't think anyone was ever claiming that was the case (which is why this is much worse than JTMS's fateseal as a softlock).
Machius proudly supports R_E's right to Rumour!
And Theros has Scry in it, which directly impacts the value of 'random milling' cards.
Scry 1 cards become less valuale against the Mystic unless they also draw the card in question because you can't keep the card if you want it.
Let's say you are the player with the Scry 1 effect (most relevant ATM I believe is Thassa in Constructed). It triggers (for Thassa, in your upkeep). You have two options: leave or ditch.
1) Leave scenario: In this case, the Mystic's player should use its ability before you can draw the card, because at worst it's random mill. At best, he just got rid of one of your answers. So your Scry did nothing.
2) Ditch scenario: In this case, the Mystic's player may choose to use its ability before you draw, but maybe not. In this case, he has no knowledge of your knowledge of the top of your deck.
Higher scry values are less susceptible to this, and some very interesting subgames can develop from them. (E.g., if one of the two cards is one you want, do you put it on top or the second-from-top? Also note that in the cases that you leave only one card on top, that devolves to case 1) above.
Such an interesting card, particularly in this block.
If the ability hits the specific card they want, then you can take it away from them. If it doesn't hit that specific card, however, then you're digging them one card deeper, and possibly causing them to draw it when they otherwise wouldn't. These effects cancel each other out exactly. If your opponent is looking for one particular card, then their odds of getting it are exactly the same whether you use the ability or not. Some math:
Suppose they have 20 cards in their deck and 1 copy of what they're looking for.
No Mystic: 1/20 chance of drawing an out.
With Mystic: 1/20 chance of hitting their card, giving them no chance. 19/20 chance of hitting something else, increasing their chances to 1/19.
Overall odds for the Mystic scenario: 1/20 * 0 + 19/20 * 1/19 = 0 + 1/20 = 1/20, exactly the same as if you hadn't activated it.
Suppose they have 20 cards in their deck and 2 copies of what they're looking for.
No Mystic: 1/10 chance of drawing an out.
With Mystic: 1/10 chance of hitting their card, reducing their chance to 1/19. 9/10 chance of hitting something else, increasing their chances to 2/19.
Overall odds for the Mystic scenario: 1/10 * 1/19 + 9/10 * 2/19 = 1/190 + 18/190 = 19/190 = 1/10, exactly the same as if you hadn't activated it.
I like the card. It seems powerful, and can give you card quality advantage over the course of the game. It's also good against scry, and can have marginal value against tutoring effects, much like mill does. However, it cannot control your opponent's draws like JTMS can. You cannot use it while ahead to deny your opponent the cards he needs to get back into the game. If you had the option to leave the card on top then it could do these things, but the fact that it removes the top card either way means that the Mystic by itself can never reduce your opponent's card quality.
Dakra turned out to be fairly powerful. If things were going well (I had lords that stuck), I swung with Dakra and closed games out. If things weren't going so well (I can't stick lords, they have large blockers), I tapped Dakra and gambled for outs.
Most of the time, I pitched the cards Dakra flipped (notably, if they flip instant-speed removal and I flip a lord, I ditch both to avoid tempo loss). But some of the time, I flipped outs and they didn't, and I was more likely to win those games.
Heck, I won games where Dakra never gave me cards but at least helped me cut through the chaff and into my outs (OK, slightly lowering opposing card quality while cutting through chaff helped).
Dakra didn't help as much against decks that got more unfair fairly fast (Twin was a big culprit--I lost a game where I kept denying them Twins but they out-tempo'd me with Exarchs and Goyfs--but Pod was also a culprit, and even Soul Sisters crashed in with big, fast Ajani's Pridemates and Dakra kept chump-blocking them and didn't draw outs fast enough).
But Dakra seemed to give my list a surprisingly good late-game for having only 4 3-drops (Merrow Reejerey), and it's fairly good at finding stall-breaking cards.
About Mindslaver rulings:
I don't see any synergy with Bane Alley Broker at all.
About Mindslaver rulings:
Perhaps the triggers wouldn't work the way I'm picturing. Couldn't you activate Dakra Mystic, after the reveal, activate Bane Alley Broker to draw the card, then choose to pitch the cards into the GY (which would just be your opponent's?
once the ability is resolving you cant respond to it
About Mindslaver rulings:
I could then build U/W Top Control with Codex Shredder, Pyxis, Lantern, Dakra Mystic, Spirit of the Labryinth, Trading Post, Verdict, the list goes on!
About Mindslaver rulings:
I agree, maybe call it, "Insight of Keranos"
Heck, even Dimir Charm can have a place in there, or Whispering Madness.
~DD
I love you. I just thought of this 30 mins before just now. This is gonna be a brutal deck.
But with Thoughtseize, Brain Maggot, Duress and the like, I'm looking at this card with this perspective: "Oh, look, if my opponent's revealed card is something he needs, than I can prevent him from drawing it, and with hand destruction like Thoughtseize, I can make sure that he's unable to play anything meaningful this entire match."
3x Dakra Mystic
2x Devour Flesh
3x Dictate of Kruphix
2x Duskmantle Seer
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Master of the Feast
4x Notion Thief
2x Thassa, God of the Sea
4x Thoughtseize
1x Ultimate Price
Second: I'm really darn sad this didn't make it into the Derevi-EDH deck.
Third: I'd really love to play this against Courser of Kruphix.
- "Oh you've drawn your card and there's a land revealed there. It'd be a shame if someone were to let us both draw and let your Courser lose his chance to play it from lib for free. And in case you have another land tucked down there, then that's too bad but I most likely got value while you got a free Lay of the Land/Expedition Map."