Ornitharch, not close. Both modes are great value even when one of them is clearly worse in a given board state. A five-drop 3/3 flier with upside is highly playable in just about any given circumstance.
Ornitharch is pretty nutty. You're still getting stonewalled by Asp, but that's OK. I'd also be interested in the other uncommons and Retraction Helix.
Ornitharch is one of the few truly excellent Tribute cards and the only one besides Fanatic of Xenagos that isn't rare or mythic. Five points of flying pain is a solid 5-drop no matter what mode opponents choose. While I think Raised by Wolves is also fairly strong and green is probably better than White in Theros-block limited, Ornitharch is a significantly stronger card and gets my vote.
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Ornitharch is great and the correct pick, but I think it's closer than it might seem at first glance to Raised by Wolves. If your opponent has an Asp or Scrymera, they can stonewall it pretty easily. If they have spot removal, it bites the dust with little impact. The raw power is plenty high enough, but it's not a slam. Retraction Helix gets consideration in a weaker pack, and Archetype of Finality could prove worthy if the format shakes out more slowly.
Ornitharch is great and the correct pick, but I think it's closer than it might seem at first glance to Raised by Wolves. If your opponent has an Asp or Scrymera, they can stonewall it pretty easily. If they have spot removal, it bites the dust with little impact. The raw power is plenty high enough, but it's not a slam. Retraction Helix gets consideration in a weaker pack, and Archetype of Finality could prove worthy if the format shakes out more slowly.
They can also just stonewall it with the Dreamfinder, while also getting a card from the CIP trigger. Additionally, Ornitharch is weaker against bounce, such as Journey's End whereas Dreamfinder isn't.
The only reason I wouldn't take Dreamfinder in this pack is because the signal Ornitharch might send and that Dreamfinder is a common so I'll be more likely to see another one.
This is quite the nice pack, with only three unplayables being the rare and the two red cards. Ornitharch is the card I chose, but I'm sad to pass Raised by Wolves, Archetype, and Retraction Helix.
The only reason I wouldn't take Dreamfinder in this pack is because the signal Ornitharch might send and that Dreamfinder is a common so I'll be more likely to see another one.
Getting enchantments into the graveyard in order to get value from this guy isn't always going to pan out. A lot of enchantment creatures technically have to die twice due to the nature of Bestow. I'd be more inclined to take it if we had Seal of Fire and the like in this set, but as is, I think its a fine common but not a star. Compare to Razor Hippogriff, which has a better body, gains you life, and was printed into a draft format where many artifacts could be sacrificed for card advantage, and artifact creatures were highly drafted for Metalcraft. Compare to good old Gravedigger, who can nearly always fulfill his duty because you have 13-17 creatures in your deck. Both cards are very good, but not necessarily worth taking over a bomb like 5 power in the air on turn 5
Getting enchantments into the graveyard in order to get value from this guy isn't always going to pan out. A lot of enchantment creatures technically have to die twice due to the nature of Bestow. I'd be more inclined to take it if we had Seal of Fire and the like in this set, but as is, I think its a fine common but not a star. Compare to Razor Hippogriff, which has a better body, gains you life, and was printed into a draft format where many artifacts could be sacrificed for card advantage, and artifact creatures were highly drafted for Metalcraft. Compare to good old Gravedigger, who can nearly always fulfill his duty because you have 13-17 creatures in your deck. Both cards are very good, but not necessarily worth taking over a bomb like 5 power in the air on turn 5
Well that's not really true. Let's look at a few things, the first being that while the body is smaller than Hippogriff as a whole, the four toughness is actually relevant, seeing as it can now block a lot of cards without dying, such as the 3/4 Scry flier or even the Ornitharch. Additionally, Hipphogriff existed in a much faster format, with infect, and bounce wasn't as relevant as it is here where both Helix and Journey's End are rather good cards.
As for the enchantment creatures, are you telling me you've never hard cast a Nimbus Naiad, Leafcrown Dryad, or any other bestow card, without bestowing it? There are also just non-bestow Enchantment creatures now.
Also, am I just really misreading this card, but can't it bring back echantments that aren't creatures? In which case the Ordeals do exist, along with other enchantments like Viper's Kiss which aren't bad targets and I've Mendered up a Kiss every now and then. I don't know but Weight of the Underworld turn four into Dreamfinder turn five could really be back breaking for your opponent.
Edit: It's also usually going to be a divided five power, unless they have an obvious answer to a 5/5 flier. That's a pretty big difference seeing as all of a sudden a lot more card road block it or answer it. It's still a very solid card, and a high pick, but it's not just a 5/5 flier for 5.
Rollicker is most certainly playable but not first pick worthy. Epiphany Storm is the only one I would call unplayable. I honestly don't see why the griffin is being debated at P1P1. My pick is Ornitharch, but it isn't a windmill slam.
Rollicker is most certainly playable but not first pick worthy. Epiphany Storm is the only one I would call unplayable. I honestly don't see why the griffin is being debated at P1P1. My pick is Ornitharch, but it isn't a windmill slam.
I agree, Rollicker is pretty good if you get the deck for him, but I'd only first pick him if I was going to try to go for a very aggressive Heroic deck. I can see him being a fourth pick in some packs though.
The Griffin discussion is more about the card as a whole, seeing as I said I'd pick the Ornitharch over it, but I believed it was a closer than most suggested.
This is quite the nice pack, with only three unplayables being the rare and the two red cards. Ornitharch is the card I chose, but I'm sad to pass Raised by Wolves, Archetype, and Retraction Helix.
Nyxborn Rollicker is not only *not* unplayable, but actually very, very good in anything that uses Heroic. It is the cheapest bestow creature around and will always be a 2 for 1 for 2 mana.
It isn't first pickable, but if you're playing red, you will very often want it in your deck.
Nyxborn Rollicker is not only *not* unplayable, but actually very, very good in anything that uses Heroic. It is the cheapest bestow creature around and will always be a 2 for 1 for 2 mana.
It isn't first pickable, but if you're playing red, you will very often want it in your deck.
It's not a 2 for 1 if I just use an enchantment removal on it when you bestow. I guess if you get some major value off the heroic trigger then you might consider it a "2 for 1", but that requires the best of the best heroic triggers.
It's not a 2 for 1 if I just use an enchantment removal on it when you bestow. I guess if you get some major value off the heroic trigger then you might consider it a "2 for 1", but that requires the best of the best heroic triggers.
If anybody uses enchantment removal to get rid of a +1/+1 that leaves a 1/1 behind, I don't know what to say.
Depends on game state, how many enchantments/artifacts they have in their deck based on my estimates etc...
The play is not always a ridiculously bad play.
I was mostly pointing out a bestow creature is not always a 2 for 1 no matter what.
This card will be a 2 for 1 more than 90% of the time. Maybe that makes you feel better since it isn't a definitive 100%. It should almost never be the target of enchantment removal because it doesn't do enough.
Well, then "why is it any good?" you ask. Because it is the cheapest bestow out there. It triggers heroic, gives you better combat stats, and even leaves behind a little 1/1 a la Doomed Traveler for your troubles. And that is a hell of a lot of versatility in a card that only costs 2 mana.
And that is why it is a good card worth playing, i.e. *not* unplayable like an earlier commenter suggested. That is all I'm saying.
Ok, can we please stop this 2 for 1 discussion? this is not a 2 for 1, if you kill the creature it's enchanting it's a 1 for 1, if you kill the Rollicker it's a 1 for 1. There's no 2 for 1 here. At best it's a 1 for 1.5 if the heroic trigger did anything beyond give +1/+1 triggers or scry.
That being said, yes Rollicker is a very powerful bestow spell, it has a place in draft and it should be a decently high pick if you plan on going into that strategy.
Thanks for that. Bestow is almost never a 2-1 if you talk about card advantage. With the small creatures it's often not even a 1-1 because the 1/1 Hopeful Eidolon leaves behind for example often doesn't have more of a use than chump blocking.
What makes the bestow creatures so strong are their synergies, the lack of removal in the set and the fact that you can push through with one giant beater. Card advantage clearly doesn't belong in this list.
In black and white terms, it is not a 2 for 1 so long as you do not count the value that the card grants as an aura as being worth anything.
However, in real application you can not count on the creature being killed immediately and you need to grant some value to the aura in question. Was having the +1/+1 counter on the creature and/or heroic triggers worth the 2 mana you spent to cast it? If yes, then it should have been worth at least "a card" even if it is removed.
You are discounting any and all benefits the card might serve as an aura as if the card you've played it on has already been removed, in which case it would simply be a 1/1 for 1R and thus a 1 for 1. In practice, that is not the case if you assign value to the effect it had as an aura.
In black and white terms, it is not a 2 for 1 so long as you do not count the value that the card grants as an aura as being worth anything.
However, in real application you can not count on the creature being killed immediately and you need to grant some value to the aura in question. Was having the +1/+1 counter on the creature and/or heroic triggers worth the 2 mana you spent to cast it? If yes, then it should have been worth at least "a card" even if it is removed.
You are discounting any and all benefits the card might serve as an aura as if the card you've played it on has already been removed, in which case it would simply be a 1/1 for 1R and thus a 1 for 1. In practice, that is not the case if you assign value to the effect it had as an aura.
Ok, so let's say I cast my 1WW flier, it's a 2/2... Next turn, I use it's monstrous Dragon Breath ability that makes me discard a card and pay 1R to make it have four power, my opponent kills it that turn or at some point later and it makes a 1/1 when it dies, have I achieved a 2 for 1?
Though realistically, let's face it, this card isn't just a 1R, for a 1/1, it's going to often times be a 1R for a 1/1 that has some ability. Is 1R for a 1/1 that says "Tap target creature, it doesn't untap during it's next untap phase" or "Target player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life" or "You get a 1/1 red human token" a bad thing? No... Is it a 2 for 1... No...
Yes, I get it's not a 1 for 1 directly, but it's only marginally better than one, and since when did we start classifying a Ghost Warden as a 2 for 1 because it pumped your dude?
Oh no! Better watch out, I played a Forest, now my Kird Ape gets +1/+2, and if you kill it, that's a 2 for 1 because I get to keep my Forest.
The pick is obviously Ornitharch but honorable mention goes to Raised by Wolves and Weight of the Underworld. I'm not convinced by Retraction Helix yet.
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They can also just stonewall it with the Dreamfinder, while also getting a card from the CIP trigger. Additionally, Ornitharch is weaker against bounce, such as Journey's End whereas Dreamfinder isn't.
The only reason I wouldn't take Dreamfinder in this pack is because the signal Ornitharch might send and that Dreamfinder is a common so I'll be more likely to see another one.
Getting enchantments into the graveyard in order to get value from this guy isn't always going to pan out. A lot of enchantment creatures technically have to die twice due to the nature of Bestow. I'd be more inclined to take it if we had Seal of Fire and the like in this set, but as is, I think its a fine common but not a star. Compare to Razor Hippogriff, which has a better body, gains you life, and was printed into a draft format where many artifacts could be sacrificed for card advantage, and artifact creatures were highly drafted for Metalcraft. Compare to good old Gravedigger, who can nearly always fulfill his duty because you have 13-17 creatures in your deck. Both cards are very good, but not necessarily worth taking over a bomb like 5 power in the air on turn 5
Well that's not really true. Let's look at a few things, the first being that while the body is smaller than Hippogriff as a whole, the four toughness is actually relevant, seeing as it can now block a lot of cards without dying, such as the 3/4 Scry flier or even the Ornitharch. Additionally, Hipphogriff existed in a much faster format, with infect, and bounce wasn't as relevant as it is here where both Helix and Journey's End are rather good cards.
As for the enchantment creatures, are you telling me you've never hard cast a Nimbus Naiad, Leafcrown Dryad, or any other bestow card, without bestowing it? There are also just non-bestow Enchantment creatures now.
Also, am I just really misreading this card, but can't it bring back echantments that aren't creatures? In which case the Ordeals do exist, along with other enchantments like Viper's Kiss which aren't bad targets and I've Mendered up a Kiss every now and then. I don't know but Weight of the Underworld turn four into Dreamfinder turn five could really be back breaking for your opponent.
Edit: It's also usually going to be a divided five power, unless they have an obvious answer to a 5/5 flier. That's a pretty big difference seeing as all of a sudden a lot more card road block it or answer it. It's still a very solid card, and a high pick, but it's not just a 5/5 flier for 5.
I agree, Rollicker is pretty good if you get the deck for him, but I'd only first pick him if I was going to try to go for a very aggressive Heroic deck. I can see him being a fourth pick in some packs though.
The Griffin discussion is more about the card as a whole, seeing as I said I'd pick the Ornitharch over it, but I believed it was a closer than most suggested.
Nyxborn Rollicker is not only *not* unplayable, but actually very, very good in anything that uses Heroic. It is the cheapest bestow creature around and will always be a 2 for 1 for 2 mana.
It isn't first pickable, but if you're playing red, you will very often want it in your deck.
It's not a 2 for 1 if I just use an enchantment removal on it when you bestow. I guess if you get some major value off the heroic trigger then you might consider it a "2 for 1", but that requires the best of the best heroic triggers.
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If anybody uses enchantment removal to get rid of a +1/+1 that leaves a 1/1 behind, I don't know what to say.
Depends on game state, how many enchantments/artifacts they have in their deck based on my estimates etc...
The play is not always a ridiculously bad play.
I was mostly pointing out a bestow creature is not always a 2 for 1 no matter what.
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This card will be a 2 for 1 more than 90% of the time. Maybe that makes you feel better since it isn't a definitive 100%. It should almost never be the target of enchantment removal because it doesn't do enough.
Well, then "why is it any good?" you ask. Because it is the cheapest bestow out there. It triggers heroic, gives you better combat stats, and even leaves behind a little 1/1 a la Doomed Traveler for your troubles. And that is a hell of a lot of versatility in a card that only costs 2 mana.
And that is why it is a good card worth playing, i.e. *not* unplayable like an earlier commenter suggested. That is all I'm saying.
That being said, yes Rollicker is a very powerful bestow spell, it has a place in draft and it should be a decently high pick if you plan on going into that strategy.
In black and white terms, it is not a 2 for 1 so long as you do not count the value that the card grants as an aura as being worth anything.
However, in real application you can not count on the creature being killed immediately and you need to grant some value to the aura in question. Was having the +1/+1 counter on the creature and/or heroic triggers worth the 2 mana you spent to cast it? If yes, then it should have been worth at least "a card" even if it is removed.
You are discounting any and all benefits the card might serve as an aura as if the card you've played it on has already been removed, in which case it would simply be a 1/1 for 1R and thus a 1 for 1. In practice, that is not the case if you assign value to the effect it had as an aura.
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Ok, so let's say I cast my 1WW flier, it's a 2/2... Next turn, I use it's monstrous Dragon Breath ability that makes me discard a card and pay 1R to make it have four power, my opponent kills it that turn or at some point later and it makes a 1/1 when it dies, have I achieved a 2 for 1?
Though realistically, let's face it, this card isn't just a 1R, for a 1/1, it's going to often times be a 1R for a 1/1 that has some ability. Is 1R for a 1/1 that says "Tap target creature, it doesn't untap during it's next untap phase" or "Target player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life" or "You get a 1/1 red human token" a bad thing? No... Is it a 2 for 1... No...
Yes, I get it's not a 1 for 1 directly, but it's only marginally better than one, and since when did we start classifying a Ghost Warden as a 2 for 1 because it pumped your dude?
Oh no! Better watch out, I played a Forest, now my Kird Ape gets +1/+2, and if you kill it, that's a 2 for 1 because I get to keep my Forest.