I'd take Demolok over the Cyclops just because I prefer green in this block to red.
Pulse Tracker is a mediocre comparison. Spiteful Returned is much, much better. The base card for Spiteful Returned is like a suped-up Pulse Tracker, yes (which is merely okay). However, the Bestow on the Returned is what makes the card great. It is average early in the game (at 1B), very good later in the game, and excellent late in the game when you need to get the last damage through.
You're taking a card that is worse than a vanilla 6/6 (or a poor man's acidic slime, which isn't *bad*, but isn't great either) over two game-winners.
Am I undervaluing eye gouge? Seems like such a small value for a card. So I wouldn't sweat running brute because gouge is in the pack, hell I'd be happy that my opponent was running such a mediocre card in hopes that stars align and he gets my cyclops.
Despite that brutal cyclops, I was first drawn to returned, that turn 4 bestow can turn the game in your favor quick.
Can somebody explain to me why people love this glorified Tenement Crasher so much? It's not a bad card, mind you, but I would never even think of picking it first, especially in a set like Theros where there are mana sinks aplenty.
I would take one of the bestow cards, probably the blue one. The black one could be stronger (I also needed some time to appreciate Hopeful Eidolon) but blue is generally better in the heroic department.
Unlike Tenement Crasher it has trample, which makes it much more difficult to deal with, and more specifically makes it a much better finisher since it is harder to chump block.
That said, it still should not be the pick here. But it is way, way, way better than the blue Bestow. Even Divination is a better pick for blue than that card.
The easy choice for best card in the pack is Spiteful Returned. The only reason for *not* taking it (and it is a dumb reason) would be because you refuse to play black.
Can somebody explain to me why people love this glorified Tenement Crasher so much? It's not a bad card, mind you, but I would never even think of picking it first, especially in a set like Theros where there are mana sinks aplenty.
I would take one of the bestow cards, probably the blue one. The black one could be stronger (I also needed some time to appreciate Hopeful Eidolon) but blue is generally better in the heroic department.
i guess they like the trample and 5 toughness. it's a fine card but nothing amazing like everyone thinks. I'd rather have the 3/3 trample monstrous guy from theros over him honestly. eye gouge seems good against red now. . . .
I don't understand the allure of the cyclops either. It's fine, yeah, but if I'm red I want to top my curve at 4.
For me the pick is either Divination, Karametra's Favor or the Returned. While blue and green are better colors in this block I'd still go with the most powerful card between the three, Spiteful Returned.
I don't understand the allure of the cyclops either. It's fine, yeah, but if I'm red I want to top my curve at 4.
lol, this is draft, not constructed.
In draft even in an aggro deck you usually want a couple of higher end finishers that can help force through the last bit of damage in games that go longer (which many of them do), and the Brute plays that role perfectly.
Doesn't mean he is the pick here, but it shouldn't be difficult to understand the allure. 5/5, haste, trample or 8/8 trample are good values for 6 cmc in draft, and both versions play that finisher role very well.
Eye Gouge is an interesting pick, with both the cyclops in BNG as commons and uncommons while in Theros, its a common, it might not be a bad idea to take it early.... but I would go with the green guy. Only because Eye Gouge does exist and giving them a free target to sideboard into is never good in my book.
I think the Spiteful Returned is the best first pick in the pack by quite a lot. I don't really like the other two uncommons as first picks. After that I think another consideration is divination.
You guys seem to be forgetting that very major aspect of limited, the "random hastebeast" phenomena. We saw that with Maze Rusher in Dragon's Maze. It's likely in those scenarios you would get an 8/8 for 6, always good. When you present Thunder Brute, you present two cards. A 5/5 with haste, by no means disrespectable in draft, or an 8/8. Either way, you come out on top. I would glance at the Returned, obviously, but black is incredibly mediocre in BNG, and it dilutes the possible devotion from Theros. It's similar to the way white was treated in M14, black just isn't looking good for me in BNG. I would try to avoid it as far as possible. By passing the Returned, however, things are looking good in that the guy to your right might be in black. That way, you could be rewarded in Theros should you continue feeding him black stuff.
You guys seem to be forgetting that very major aspect of limited, the "random hastebeast" phenomena. We saw that with Maze Rusher in Dragon's Maze. It's likely in those scenarios you would get an 8/8 for 6, always good. When you present Thunder Brute, you present two cards. A 5/5 with haste, by no means disrespectable in draft, or an 8/8. Either way, you come out on top. I would glance at the Returned, obviously, but black is incredibly mediocre in BNG, and it dilutes the possible devotion from Theros. It's similar to the way white was treated in M14, black just isn't looking good for me in BNG. I would try to avoid it as far as possible. By passing the Returned, however, things are looking good in that the guy to your right might be in black. That way, you could be rewarded in Theros should you continue feeding him black stuff.
black is also very strong in THS.
this draft format is THS THS BNG. i think people are picking based on BNG BNG BNG.
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Animar, Chainer, Derevi the Stonehewer Mystic, Nekusar
this draft format is THS THS BNG. i think people are picking based on BNG BNG BNG.
It's not "very strong" as you put it. The nut devotion deck really does kill you, but getting it is really tough. Getting two Garies itself is quite difficult, and having to play Felhide Minotaurs and Blood-Toll Harpies significantly drops your card quality.
Actually UW Heroic was the best draft overall deck in THS/THS/THS. Unless you had the insane-o nuts draft with say like 4 Gary's other quality black spells, including a nice splash or maybe blue or green. UW Heroic did more with less and had a lot of tempo ways to win games and more speed than most mono-black or nearly mono-black decks could muster.
The most Gary's I ever got in a deck was 3 and while that deck was solid, it was nowhere near as fast and consistent as my UW Heroic decks.
I would believe the green tribute is the right pick. You have the opportunity to start cutting green from the player to your left, and leaves you with a solid beater that works out in your favor (usually) whether they tribute it or not.
Also, although it's 'situational', this type of removal is usually quite solid in a limited format. That would be my primary reason for setting it as pick 1.
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I would believe the green tribute is the right pick. You have the opportunity to start cutting green from the player to your left, and leaves you with a solid beater that works out in your favor (usually) whether they tribute it or not.
Also, although it's 'situational', this type of removal is usually quite solid in a limited format. That would be my primary reason for setting it as pick 1.
That removal will absolutely never be removal when you actually need to remove something. In those cases it will be a 6/6, which isn't terrible. However, in the case where there is nothing worth removing, it will be a vanilla 3/3 and your opponent will not care that he loses a land.
It is an okay card. But not a first pick. Or second, or third, or fourth. At least the red tribute has trample regardless. And that still isn't the card that should be picked. Spiteful Returned 100%.
Interesting, I think we be both undervalue our respective picks. Spiteful Returned looks stronger and stronger the more I look at it, but I think you should take a second glance at the Triton. The high toughness really sells this card for me and I'm pretty sure it's not worse than Thunder Brute.
The problem with the Triton is that it does nothing interesting. A 2/3 for 2U isn't even playable unless you're incredibly desperate. The bestow on it is a little bit better, especially if you can take advantage of heroic. But it doesn't give flying or any kind of evasion. Compare that the the rest of Heroic cards printed, and it will simply come up short.
I view it as the type of card that you really don't want to be playing in your deck, but aren't completely unhappy if it ends up being your 20th+ card because it least it has some versatility.
Unless you are running a UW Heroic deck, in which case it jumps up in value a little bit because the bestow cost on it isn't unreasonable. If that is true, it would be an average-ish card in that deck.
On the other hand Spiteful Returned should almost always be one of the top 7-8 cards in every single limited deck it is played in. It is one of the best heroic enablers in the entire format because it has a cheap bestow cost, and a very relevant ability that is useful even after the creature it enchants dies since it keeps the unblockable damage.
Imagine bestowing Spiteful Returned onto a Wingsteed Rider on T4, or even onto a Hero of Iroas on turn 3.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Triton is unplayable or anything like that. It is just vanilla and not undercosted.
Edit: I see that you mentioned Thunder Brute. The Brute is also a much better card than the Triton. Unlike the green tribute creature, both modes are dangerous and devastating on the Cyclops. The fact that it has trample regardless is what makes it a very valuable finisher. An 8/8 trampler or a 5/5 trampler with haste both threaten to end games very quickly on their own accord if left unchecked. It is likely the 2nd best card in the pack.
Really just between Thunder Brute and Spiteful Returned, IMO. Given that two packs of Theros follow after I'd probably pick Returned, but if I'm feeling adventurous I could probably take the cyclops on other days.
In draft even in an aggro deck you usually want a couple of higher end finishers that can help force through the last bit of damage in games that go longer (which many of them do), and the Brute plays that role perfectly.
Doesn't mean he is the pick here, but it shouldn't be difficult to understand the allure. 5/5, haste, trample or 8/8 trample are good values for 6 cmc in draft, and both versions play that finisher role very well.
lol, I know this is draft.
I still won't look for playing 6cc creatures in red decks in Theros. I want to top my curve with Heliod's Emissary, Purphoros's Emissary, Mogis Fanatic or even Divine Verdict or Ill-Tempered Cyclops. If I, God forbid, get to six mana in my red deck, I'll want to bestow a Spearpoint Oread and have another up for Gods Willing or perhaps monstrify the cyclops.
That said, I will play Thunder Brute over a lot of stuff because at least when it is good, it is damn good. Most of the time though I'll sit at 4-5 lands wishing it was a small critter or bestow.
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I'd take Demolok over the Cyclops just because I prefer green in this block to red.
Pulse Tracker is a mediocre comparison. Spiteful Returned is much, much better. The base card for Spiteful Returned is like a suped-up Pulse Tracker, yes (which is merely okay). However, the Bestow on the Returned is what makes the card great. It is average early in the game (at 1B), very good later in the game, and excellent late in the game when you need to get the last damage through.
You're taking a card that is worse than a vanilla 6/6 (or a poor man's acidic slime, which isn't *bad*, but isn't great either) over two game-winners.
Despite that brutal cyclops, I was first drawn to returned, that turn 4 bestow can turn the game in your favor quick.
Unlike Tenement Crasher it has trample, which makes it much more difficult to deal with, and more specifically makes it a much better finisher since it is harder to chump block.
That said, it still should not be the pick here. But it is way, way, way better than the blue Bestow. Even Divination is a better pick for blue than that card.
The easy choice for best card in the pack is Spiteful Returned. The only reason for *not* taking it (and it is a dumb reason) would be because you refuse to play black.
i guess they like the trample and 5 toughness. it's a fine card but nothing amazing like everyone thinks. I'd rather have the 3/3 trample monstrous guy from theros over him honestly. eye gouge seems good against red now. . . .
For me the pick is either Divination, Karametra's Favor or the Returned. While blue and green are better colors in this block I'd still go with the most powerful card between the three, Spiteful Returned.
lol, this is draft, not constructed.
In draft even in an aggro deck you usually want a couple of higher end finishers that can help force through the last bit of damage in games that go longer (which many of them do), and the Brute plays that role perfectly.
Doesn't mean he is the pick here, but it shouldn't be difficult to understand the allure. 5/5, haste, trample or 8/8 trample are good values for 6 cmc in draft, and both versions play that finisher role very well.
It's a tough choice. Black just has so much removal, but then again, what's your threat density going to be?
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black is also very strong in THS.
this draft format is THS THS BNG. i think people are picking based on BNG BNG BNG.
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Modern:
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EDH:
Animar, Chainer, Derevi the Stonehewer Mystic, Nekusar
It's not "very strong" as you put it. The nut devotion deck really does kill you, but getting it is really tough. Getting two Garies itself is quite difficult, and having to play Felhide Minotaurs and Blood-Toll Harpies significantly drops your card quality.
The most Gary's I ever got in a deck was 3 and while that deck was solid, it was nowhere near as fast and consistent as my UW Heroic decks.
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Also, although it's 'situational', this type of removal is usually quite solid in a limited format. That would be my primary reason for setting it as pick 1.
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That removal will absolutely never be removal when you actually need to remove something. In those cases it will be a 6/6, which isn't terrible. However, in the case where there is nothing worth removing, it will be a vanilla 3/3 and your opponent will not care that he loses a land.
It is an okay card. But not a first pick. Or second, or third, or fourth. At least the red tribute has trample regardless. And that still isn't the card that should be picked. Spiteful Returned 100%.
The problem with the Triton is that it does nothing interesting. A 2/3 for 2U isn't even playable unless you're incredibly desperate. The bestow on it is a little bit better, especially if you can take advantage of heroic. But it doesn't give flying or any kind of evasion. Compare that the the rest of Heroic cards printed, and it will simply come up short.
I view it as the type of card that you really don't want to be playing in your deck, but aren't completely unhappy if it ends up being your 20th+ card because it least it has some versatility.
Unless you are running a UW Heroic deck, in which case it jumps up in value a little bit because the bestow cost on it isn't unreasonable. If that is true, it would be an average-ish card in that deck.
On the other hand Spiteful Returned should almost always be one of the top 7-8 cards in every single limited deck it is played in. It is one of the best heroic enablers in the entire format because it has a cheap bestow cost, and a very relevant ability that is useful even after the creature it enchants dies since it keeps the unblockable damage.
Imagine bestowing Spiteful Returned onto a Wingsteed Rider on T4, or even onto a Hero of Iroas on turn 3.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Triton is unplayable or anything like that. It is just vanilla and not undercosted.
Edit: I see that you mentioned Thunder Brute. The Brute is also a much better card than the Triton. Unlike the green tribute creature, both modes are dangerous and devastating on the Cyclops. The fact that it has trample regardless is what makes it a very valuable finisher. An 8/8 trampler or a 5/5 trampler with haste both threaten to end games very quickly on their own accord if left unchecked. It is likely the 2nd best card in the pack.
Returned or Demolok here.
Very weak pack to begin with.
Also why are these being posted here and not Limited?
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lol, I know this is draft.
I still won't look for playing 6cc creatures in red decks in Theros. I want to top my curve with Heliod's Emissary, Purphoros's Emissary, Mogis Fanatic or even Divine Verdict or Ill-Tempered Cyclops. If I, God forbid, get to six mana in my red deck, I'll want to bestow a Spearpoint Oread and have another up for Gods Willing or perhaps monstrify the cyclops.
That said, I will play Thunder Brute over a lot of stuff because at least when it is good, it is damn good. Most of the time though I'll sit at 4-5 lands wishing it was a small critter or bestow.