Which is still far from ideal though :P. Opponents get two whole turns to either find spot removal or block it to death before you even get a single card of it.
Meh.
Having said that, it can indeed be abused with untap effects (in casual/EDH). I'm thinking Intruder alarm .
Well, I had an initial scare of thinking how this might affect Dark Confidant prices since one of my Modern Masters Box was saved in value by Confidant, but it was before I analyzed the card carefully and I was still slightly affected by the "wow" factor of the Inspiration-Sphinx.
But after a while, it was easy to see that Pain Seer is not going to be a Confidant-Killer.
The only real time Pain Seer would be better than Confidant would be if you have a way to tap and untap the seer in the same turn repeatedly, making it an pain-draw engine Confidant can never be. But that is likely to require a lot of set-up beforehand, which is sort of pointless and chances are you're better off with direct (pain) draw instead.
Otherwise, Pain Seer holds the drawback of requiring to attack. It's pointless to imagine a scenario when Pain Seer is dealing damage and drawing as optimal, because Confidant can do the same in the same situation, and in fact, triggers a turn earlier.
Pain Seer is a conditional Confidant, and one with quite the situational condition. One can get around the condition (via tap and untap tactics), and possibly even make it an engine with enough of those tactics, but at the end of the day, it isn't worth the trouble.
End of the day, I quite confident it will not end up being a dollar rare, but it's definitely going to suffer some hype-pricing for the weeks to come.
i know but something will always be worse than bob, just like saying "oh well that creature is worse than goyf" its just not fair for the new card, people at least can give it a chance.
I'm really not sure whether the people saying, 'oh, I'm losing life to draw cards, bad card', have ever played bob. This card needs to have a deck which supports it. Without the support, it's as people said, you're dropping it on t2 to draw a card on t4, with support, it's pretty much the same as having bob in your deck, if not even better since you could do some shenanigans with Triton Tactics etc.
i know but something will always be worse than bob, just like saying "oh well that creature is worse than goyf" its just not fair for the new card, people at least can give it a chance.
Lol, yes. Being worse than one of the best 2-drops ever printed doesn't really say much about its playability. For all I know, it may be an auto 4-of next to bob in eternal formats...
I'm really not sure whether the people saying, 'oh, I'm losing life to draw cards, bad card', have ever played bob. This card needs to have a deck which supports it. Without the support, it's as people said, you're dropping it on t2 to draw a card on t4, with support, it's pretty much the same as having bob in your deck, if not even better since you could do some shenanigans with Triton Tactics etc.
True, but a lot of people seem to just be ignoring it and saying"bob is better" which he is, no doubt about it.
I'm not entirely sure this guy is worse than Bob, in the right context. Don't get me wrong, 99% of the time Bob is the better card, but this guy is a great combo piece if you can tap and untap him consistently.
Bob's weakness has always been that you can never turn him off and he's dangerous in multiples. Pain Seer is far less consistent, but if you control when you tap, and even better when you untap him, he is actually very potent. Multiple Pain Seers also aren't that much of a problem, since you can simply chose not to tap him.
Nevertheless, this will not dislodge Bob from his pedestal, but it might spawn a new form of black control if the right cards get printed.
Oh I want to brew up some janky dimir "Inspirational Heroism" deck with some evasive creatures where I repeatedly use Hidden Strings to keep triggering Inspriation and Heroic on cards like Pain Seer and Agent of the Fates.
I think it will be good in B/x/x aggro decks though. A bear isn't great there but it can help give them a lot more reach particularly when combined with Xathrid Necromancer.
Lets break it down. He is a 2/2 for 1B which is basic. Looking in the standard realm, he drawsyou a card a strong majority of time on turn 4 or 3 at best. Read the Bones works trun 3 and digs down 4 cards if needed with 2 life used. Underworld Connections works if you have 4 lands on turn 3. You also don't loose alot of life fast as with Read the Bones. Monoblack devotion uses to high cmc for Pin Seer to be useful against fast aggro and burn. Black uses life as a resource but likes to have the cushion of life to play deadly stuff. Now comes the real question. Is this better than Read the Bones or Underworld Connections? No and poorly yes. A Human truning zombie deck of Xdrid necromancy would be cool but how reliable? Mono blue, Monoblack, and UW could really care less. Drawing cards now, wins games. Deylayed draw is cool as a side benefit to something already winning is optimal. Now I will discuss the Dark One (Bob). Bob is delayed drar but he reliable draw as Phyrexian Areana is. If Pain Seer was a 1/3 to not die to every staple little creature in Standard; I would be jumping for pain (real black mage here). He will see outlier play in jank deck in modern, but nothing else. Standard play is reduced to aggro RB decks to Necromancy decks which are weak to the teir one decks of of right now. Lastly, I would rather have Underworld connections as it gives me one more devotion to black and does not remove 4-5 life next turn from Gary or Desecration D..
He will be in the $ bin very soon. Pharika's Cure has another target if this sees play.
i wonder if opposition will see play in legacy because of this... its also very well designed for a wizard tribal deck. can also be used in SFM decks if you dont have money for Bob.
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This card has definitely no place in Mono-black as it stands right now. We have many 3, 4 and 5 mana spells. Running this would be suicide. Underworld Connections is far better in that regard. And that is not even taking into equation if you ever get to draw a card from this.
This can probably only be played in a low curve aggro deck without killing yourself but then you have the problem that is just a bear in combat.
The meta will change a bit with Born of the Gods but right now the three big decks are Mono-Blue, Mono-Black and probably UW Control. He is not good in a match against either of them.
Well you should reread your post. What they're saying is you missed on attacking with Pain Seer on t3.
Ideally, you should get an extra card when you untap on t4.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Meh.
Having said that, it can indeed be abused with untap effects (in casual/EDH). I'm thinking Intruder alarm .
Then why do you only get 5 turns when it goes to time in a round? You don't get 5 turns each, you get 5 turns.
But after a while, it was easy to see that Pain Seer is not going to be a Confidant-Killer.
The only real time Pain Seer would be better than Confidant would be if you have a way to tap and untap the seer in the same turn repeatedly, making it an pain-draw engine Confidant can never be. But that is likely to require a lot of set-up beforehand, which is sort of pointless and chances are you're better off with direct (pain) draw instead.
Otherwise, Pain Seer holds the drawback of requiring to attack. It's pointless to imagine a scenario when Pain Seer is dealing damage and drawing as optimal, because Confidant can do the same in the same situation, and in fact, triggers a turn earlier.
Pain Seer is a conditional Confidant, and one with quite the situational condition. One can get around the condition (via tap and untap tactics), and possibly even make it an engine with enough of those tactics, but at the end of the day, it isn't worth the trouble.
End of the day, I quite confident it will not end up being a dollar rare, but it's definitely going to suffer some hype-pricing for the weeks to come.
Uh, because that's how it is...
URWTwin
XAffinity
i know but something will always be worse than bob, just like saying "oh well that creature is worse than goyf" its just not fair for the new card, people at least can give it a chance.
URWTwin
XAffinity
Lol, yes. Being worse than one of the best 2-drops ever printed doesn't really say much about its playability. For all I know, it may be an auto 4-of next to bob in eternal formats...
True, but a lot of people seem to just be ignoring it and saying"bob is better" which he is, no doubt about it.
URWTwin
XAffinity
This card and the Agent of Ashiok are begging to be abused with Triton tactics and hidden strings.
Well, if that's your point of view, can you explain how do you play it on turn 2?
Bob's weakness has always been that you can never turn him off and he's dangerous in multiples. Pain Seer is far less consistent, but if you control when you tap, and even better when you untap him, he is actually very potent. Multiple Pain Seers also aren't that much of a problem, since you can simply chose not to tap him.
Nevertheless, this will not dislodge Bob from his pedestal, but it might spawn a new form of black control if the right cards get printed.
Is the first thing I thought when I saw it, too.
I want to make a casual deck with this, blood scrivener, and bob all as a 4x and see if i can make it work. Any other 'next bob's I'm not thinking of?
4 Pain Seer
3 Ashiok's Adept
2 Tormented Hero
2 Desecration Demon
2 Duskmantle Seer
4 Triton Tactics
3 Boon of Erebos
3 Thoughtsieze
3 Doom Blade
3 Springleaf Drum
+ Lands. Yes, it's terrible, but probably fun to play.
He will be in the $ bin very soon. Pharika's Cure has another target if this sees play.
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Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Duskmantle Seer
This card has definitely no place in Mono-black as it stands right now. We have many 3, 4 and 5 mana spells. Running this would be suicide. Underworld Connections is far better in that regard. And that is not even taking into equation if you ever get to draw a card from this.
This can probably only be played in a low curve aggro deck without killing yourself but then you have the problem that is just a bear in combat.
The meta will change a bit with Born of the Gods but right now the three big decks are Mono-Blue, Mono-Black and probably UW Control. He is not good in a match against either of them.
Optimal would be:
T1 Mutavault, Springleaf Drum
T2 Swamp, Pain Seer, ??Thoughtseize??
Turn 3 you draw 2 cards, play a land and have up to 4 mana available.
He really fits with Springleaf Drum, but you are relying on a combo to make him work.
Because it would warp the format around having black in your deck so you can run Bob, or what?
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