Immediate reaction = trash. However, the fact that he comes down with 5 loyalty on turn three makes me wonder. He seems comparable to Gideon 2.0 in that he does nothing for a few turns, maybe with your opponent ignoring him until it's too late. Just the fact it can put a control player in top-deck mode if unmolested makes for a dangerous clock in that match.
Definately not as good as Elspeth or Xenagos (although I have my reservations about him as well), but I could see Ashiok being a 1-of in control shells for the sake of diversified threats.
This card certainly has potential. With sphinx's revelation around everywhere, and the scry mechanic coming back, it certainly isn't useless.
I wouldn't use this as a mill card as I've seen some suggest, but it probably has a home in UBx control on the sideboard most likely.
+2, puts him at 5 loyalty, which isn't the easiest to take down. Again, with the scry mechanic coming back, really deteriorates the purposefulness of when your opponent scry's, as the card they want will just get exiled, and in fact if you play them after they scry, you *might* just steal a win con.
-X is not bad. It is very conditional and you never really want to rely on a conditional card to win, but it certainly would not be considered useless. Can't use it when it comes down, which is kind of huge.
Ultimate is pretty good for 3 mana in a CONTROL match up. Deplete the opponent of their resources? After a wrath this will put you in a good position to win the game. Pretty much any control deck is near screwed in top deck mode, and this is exactly what it does. Also I would like to note if you get his ulti off without your walker getting pinged, they are still alive so you can build them back up and take any win con you may have destroyed.
Does she need support? For sure.
Does she put you in a good position without the ultimate? Not really.
Is she good in both aggro and control match ups? Very, very situational for aggro, but becomes a must deal with card against control.
Best she can do against aggro is redirect hate, and possibly take one of their fatties and give it to you. Not that great.
Best she can do against control/mid-range is put you in top deck mode and deplete you of all non-permanent resources, which is pretty huge because as a control deck you should be able to do this.
All in all she is okay, could certainly find a home in someone's sideboard like grixis, but I highly doubt it will be main-deckable.
EDIT: Also is anyone wondering why there seems to be a lot of graveyard hate for a standard that up to now seems like there isn't going to be much going on with the graveyard?
with the new legendary/planeswalker rule. i think she is awesome.
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What's the chance of a Kraken Hatchling reprint in Theros? I feel like that would be really good as a roadblock for a deck playing this.
Well there is Hover Barrier, Wall of Frost and Omenspeaker but I think only Omenspeaker will be played because its only costs 2 mana still blocks good and fixes your draws.
Problem 1: The opponent has to be playing a deck with significant numbers of 1-4 drop creatures for this card to do anything. Every deck nowadays runs SOME creatures, but control decks are still light enough on them that you will miss entirely quite often.
Problem 2: Any really good deck is doing stuff that you have to deal with *now* turn after turn. Now, this planeswalker IS a threat that has to be dealt with, but it doesn't help you deal with your opponent's threats at all until it's been out for a couple turns. It's unlikely to be destroyed the turn it comes down - after all, it comes down with effectively 5 loyalty thanks to the +2, and on turn 3 if they can swing for 5 they're an aggro deck with a near-god draw (and you should have played something else) - but it IS likely that on turn 4 it will also have to +2 just to stay alive. You have to protect this planeswalker, which isn't great.
My first thought as to where this guy would fit: if a Superfriends style deck springs up, 3 mana makes Ashiok a fit. Superfriends decks that can stick threatening planeswalkers on consecutive turns usually win, so being 3 mana instead of 4 is a HUGE deal. It's hard to take out two planeswalkers with attacks while they're doing stuff before one of them just goes off and wins the game.
The trouble with that kind of reasoning is that it almost doesn't matter what the planeswalker does. All you really care about is that you get *a* planeswalker that does stuff that eventually can win you the game. So that's not exactly a favorable evaluation of this card.
Fringe playable, with the slight possibility that a decent deck comes out that uses it as a centerpiece, given the right support.
+2: Target player puts the top 3 cards of his/her library in to the graveyard.
-X: Put a creature card with converted mana cost X from any player's graveyard onto the battlefield under your control. That creature is a Nightmare in addition to its other types. -9: Each opponent discards his/her hand.
Exiling is nice, but it plays against so many other strategies that black is trying to do. Also, it would be nice to be able to mill yourself.
As I have it worded, this ability is powerful. I'll admit, it may be pushing to envelope. Still, at least this way, you can use the -X ability the turn it comes into play. Maybe not all the time, but it's possible.
Had to rework the finisher to work with her new abilities.
If this seems too pushed, then possibly this:
+2: Each opponent puts the top 3 cards of his/her library in to the graveyard.
-X: Put a creature card with converted mana cost X from an opponent's graveyard onto the battlefield under your control. That creature is a Nightmare in addition to its other types. -9: Each opponent discards his/her hand.
With this version, I can at least throw it down, and possibly nab a good creature from the GY the turn it comes into play.
As it is, I just don't see it being used as a finisher over Jace, Memory Adept. Even with that said, I'd like to give this guy a chance. I've been surprised before.
Problem 1: The opponent has to be playing a deck with significant numbers of 1-4 drop creatures for this card to do anything. Every deck nowadays runs SOME creatures, but control decks are still light enough on them that you will miss entirely quite often.
Ummm...against creature-lite control this thing says "kill me or lose when I ultimate". It doesn't care about hitting creatures. Basically forces them to find that Detention Sphere in a hurry...and hope that you don't counter the sphere.
@chaos... very well worded, and exactly what I've been thinking on all points.
Is he GREAT? No. But people forget that decks that play this guy aren't going to run him out without ways to protect him. People are using the scope of what cards we know right this second and the decks people have been playing for the last 2 months to judge this. I think that's a huge mistake, and while I certainly don't think his "milling" is remotely the cool factor here, I think stealing creatures that are important to them (like a Voice, BTE, or Fiendslayer) is huge. Heck, I'd be willing to let him die if it means I get your 5 drop.
It'll take some tweaking... but he's hardly Tibalt.
turn 1 thoughtseize
turn 2 omen speaker
turn 3 ashiok
wishful thinking play. but i think it can go like that and go win in a few turns after ashiok goes down with some more creature and some removals.
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If it weren't for the art, this would be a waste of cardboard.
Sure, it's a 3 mana planeswalker that starts out with 5 loyalty, but high loyalty doesn't matter because it can be completely ignored by most decks anyhow.
Aggro decks will just be happy you wasted your turn 3 doing nothing and kills you before it does anything useful. Even if it does snag a creature from an aggro deck it will probably be a small aggressive creature and not worth much for defense.
Control decks mostly don't care about the high starting loyalty because they get rid of planeswalkers via other means. It's only good against control decks if you can get it to its ultimate (or get really really lucky with exiling a creature), and if the opponent couldn't counter/bounce/exile/destroy Ashiok by then, you probably could have won with a number of other cards that would actually be useful in other matchups too.
If it weren't for the art, this would be a waste of cardboard.
Sure, it's a 3 mana planeswalker that starts out with 5 loyalty, but high loyalty doesn't matter because it can be completely ignored by most decks anyhow.
Aggro decks will just be happy you wasted your turn 3 doing nothing and kills you before it does anything useful. Even if it does snag a creature from an aggro deck it will probably be a small aggressive creature and not worth much for defense.
Control decks mostly don't care about the high starting loyalty because they get rid of planeswalkers via other means. It's only good against control decks if you can get it to its ultimate (or get really really lucky with exiling a creature), and if the opponent couldn't counter/bounce/exile/destroy Ashiok by then, you probably could have won with a number of other cards that would actually be useful in other matchups too.
This is exactly the mentality Ashiok players will hope their opponents will adopt.
It wouldn't take long for Ashiok to do something in many situations.
T3: Cast Ashiok, find Boros Reckoner
T4: Put Reckoner into play
I'm conflicted here. For every case I see this card as being good, I can see 1-2 where it's bad. The ultimate is really narrow and only effective against control. People compare this to Drownyard, though I'd argue Drownyard does job better because it doesn't really take up a slot in your deck.
Five loyalty out of the gate is big, but Ashiock can outright be ignored in a number of situations. This is the same criticism I had about Gideon 2.0: it doesn't matter if he has a ton of loyalty, if something can be ignored while you get your face bashed in then you're not doing yourself any favors.
I will say this much: if Wizards was trying to get a low cost walker that could steal creatures, then I understand how they arrived at this. That's a hard function to balance because it can easily be OP.
Sadly Abrupt Decay makes this card significantly worse. With Liliana, Domri and even Ajani you can get a small to moderate gain with a single activation, whereas Ashiok really gets you jack **** if you can only activate once. Losing the state of the exiled cards after leaving the battlefield compounds the problem.
I'll concede that since we don't know the rest of the spoilers yet, it stands to reason something could bust Ashiok wide open and we just don't know it yet.
Ummm...against creature-lite control this thing says "kill me or lose when I ultimate". It doesn't care about hitting creatures. Basically forces them to find that Detention Sphere in a hurry...and hope that you don't counter the sphere.
"I do nothing for at least 4 turns, then do a powerful effect" does not make for a strong planeswalker.
It seems that people don't seem to understand how to use it or why it is a threat to your opponent, even if he doesn't have an immediate impact.
This is true of virtually all Planeswalkers ever printed.
The flaw in that reasoning, if you don't see it already, is that when a control deck gives an aggro deck an entire turn advantage in dealing damage, any well-constructed aggro deck will be able to turn that into the decisive advantage that wins them the game. If you're playing Ashiok out as the player who is presently on the defensive, it doesn't matter that s/he's (what gender is this character, anyway?) eventually a threat, because the game will be decided before you can trigger the ultimate and because to get to the ultimate, the card does *nothing* for an extended period of time anyway.
I'm aggro, you're control. You're playing first (otherwise four power is a lowball estimate for me, unless you removed one). So you drop Ashiok, then I drop a creature and swing four to your face. The next turn, you now can either +2 Ashiok again (if you failed to exile any good creatures, say), or you can put one creature on the battlefield.
On turn four, Ashiok is worth one creature of variable value as a defender, sometimes. That's not the worst thing ever considering you can reasonably expect to pull another creature in two turns, but, like with all card evaluations, the key to remember is opportunity cost.
Instead of Ashiok, you could have played a consistently powerful defensive creature for 3 mana - likely one that can generate card advantage (there are plenty of card advantage generating creatures) at least as well as Ashiok does. Ashiok doesn't do anything for you against fast aggro
Ashiok is a threat, not an answer. That's not a strike against a card, but Ashiok is marginal as a threat as well, because 1UB conditional threats aren't in high demand - very few UB decks are play-threats-til-you-win decks. The threats that those colors do play are usually cards that sit in your hand until you've completely stabilized the board, then you play them and win within a turn or two.
I really wish WoTC would stop with its trial and error planeswalkers. Tibalt was a disaster, and so is Ashiok.
You pay people to play test, so actually play test. Unless they honesty still believe mill is a legitimate strategy in either Standard or Modern. Dimir is regarded as one of the weakest guilds because they wanted to push mill so hard in U/. I'm not asking for "draw, go" here, but if you're going the creature/combat route at least stick with it for all colours.
I guess we had quirky and innovative PW for RBandU, so next is a weak WandG one? ... Yeah, probably not going to happen anytime soon.
I really wish WoTC would stop with its trial and error planeswalkers. Tibalt was a disaster, and so is Ashiok.
You pay people to play test, so actually play test. Unless they honesty still believe mill is a legitimate strategy in either Standard or Modern. Dimir is regarded as one of the weakest guilds because they wanted to push mill so hard in U/. I'm not asking for "draw, go" here, but if you're going the creature/combat route at least stick with it for all colours.
I guess we had quirky and innovative PW for RBandU, so next is a weak WandG one? ... Yeah, probably not going to happen anytime soon.
I'm not sure this card was ever intended for Spike. Johnny is going to have a field day with it. "Don't print cards like this" seems like the wrong response - it's a very cool card (that's probably why it already has so many fans despite it's clear drawbacks!). They should keep printing cards like this, and we should keep playing other cards in the competitive scene.
With his face and body like that... is Ashiok one of the Returned?
Zombie PW FTW!
Yes and no. If you notice, he's growing horns and claws, and there's a reverant of a soul nearby. So Ashiok is right smack-dab in the middle between Returned and Theros Demon (Returned can become a demon if they are evil enough). So first half demon walker?
Why wishful thinking? This seems like an entirely reasonable progression of cards, particularly since Omen Speaker sets up your draw.
because it wont always be that perfect. that openning hand is considered god draw.
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Whether it will be good depends on the creature density of decks. It doesn't do much against control decks like those that ran only two Aetherlings, but if it can find like two or three creatures after two +2 activations, then you're pretty much set. High loyalty makes it hard to kill.
Whether it will be good depends on the creature density of decks. It doesn't do much against control decks like those that ran only two Aetherlings, but if it can find like two or three creatures after two +2 activations, then you're pretty much set. High loyalty makes it hard to kill.
I'm intrigued.
If you steal 1 Aetherling, and you can mill faster because you have Ashiok, don't you win that battle?
"I do nothing for at least 4 turns, then do a powerful effect" does not make for a strong planeswalker.
It does in the right situation and at the right cost. A 3-mana threat that dodges most of control's removal and wins you the game unanswered is strong. She is hitting them with her ultimate on turn 7, leaving them defenseless and sticking around to steal any creatures she might have hit.
Think about big Jace and his mill 10, it plays similarly when used as a control vs control wincon (a common use over the past year), doing nothing for a while then winning the game. Obviously he is stronger...but he is also 2 more to cast, making him slower, more likely to get countered, and more difficult to protect.
I'm not sure this card was ever intended for Spike. Johnny is going to have a field day with it. "Don't print cards like this" seems like the wrong response - it's a very cool card (that's probably why it already has so many fans despite it's clear drawbacks!). They should keep printing cards like this, and we should keep playing other cards in the competitive scene.
I'm okay with printing creative and innovating cards. However, when they are done with high profile cards, such as PWs, then you're going to draw some heavy criticism. Not to say "Johnny" cards shouldn't be mythic or rare.
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Definately not as good as Elspeth or Xenagos (although I have my reservations about him as well), but I could see Ashiok being a 1-of in control shells for the sake of diversified threats.
I wouldn't use this as a mill card as I've seen some suggest, but it probably has a home in UBx control on the sideboard most likely.
+2, puts him at 5 loyalty, which isn't the easiest to take down. Again, with the scry mechanic coming back, really deteriorates the purposefulness of when your opponent scry's, as the card they want will just get exiled, and in fact if you play them after they scry, you *might* just steal a win con.
-X is not bad. It is very conditional and you never really want to rely on a conditional card to win, but it certainly would not be considered useless. Can't use it when it comes down, which is kind of huge.
Ultimate is pretty good for 3 mana in a CONTROL match up. Deplete the opponent of their resources? After a wrath this will put you in a good position to win the game. Pretty much any control deck is near screwed in top deck mode, and this is exactly what it does. Also I would like to note if you get his ulti off without your walker getting pinged, they are still alive so you can build them back up and take any win con you may have destroyed.
Does she need support? For sure.
Does she put you in a good position without the ultimate? Not really.
Is she good in both aggro and control match ups? Very, very situational for aggro, but becomes a must deal with card against control.
Best she can do against aggro is redirect hate, and possibly take one of their fatties and give it to you. Not that great.
Best she can do against control/mid-range is put you in top deck mode and deplete you of all non-permanent resources, which is pretty huge because as a control deck you should be able to do this.
All in all she is okay, could certainly find a home in someone's sideboard like grixis, but I highly doubt it will be main-deckable.
EDIT: Also is anyone wondering why there seems to be a lot of graveyard hate for a standard that up to now seems like there isn't going to be much going on with the graveyard?
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Omenspeaker says sup.
Well there is Hover Barrier, Wall of Frost and Omenspeaker but I think only Omenspeaker will be played because its only costs 2 mana still blocks good and fixes your draws.
Problem 1: The opponent has to be playing a deck with significant numbers of 1-4 drop creatures for this card to do anything. Every deck nowadays runs SOME creatures, but control decks are still light enough on them that you will miss entirely quite often.
Problem 2: Any really good deck is doing stuff that you have to deal with *now* turn after turn. Now, this planeswalker IS a threat that has to be dealt with, but it doesn't help you deal with your opponent's threats at all until it's been out for a couple turns. It's unlikely to be destroyed the turn it comes down - after all, it comes down with effectively 5 loyalty thanks to the +2, and on turn 3 if they can swing for 5 they're an aggro deck with a near-god draw (and you should have played something else) - but it IS likely that on turn 4 it will also have to +2 just to stay alive. You have to protect this planeswalker, which isn't great.
My first thought as to where this guy would fit: if a Superfriends style deck springs up, 3 mana makes Ashiok a fit. Superfriends decks that can stick threatening planeswalkers on consecutive turns usually win, so being 3 mana instead of 4 is a HUGE deal. It's hard to take out two planeswalkers with attacks while they're doing stuff before one of them just goes off and wins the game.
The trouble with that kind of reasoning is that it almost doesn't matter what the planeswalker does. All you really care about is that you get *a* planeswalker that does stuff that eventually can win you the game. So that's not exactly a favorable evaluation of this card.
Fringe playable, with the slight possibility that a decent deck comes out that uses it as a centerpiece, given the right support.
+2: Target player puts the top 3 cards of his/her library in to the graveyard.
-X: Put a creature card with converted mana cost X from any player's graveyard onto the battlefield under your control. That creature is a Nightmare in addition to its other types.
-9: Each opponent discards his/her hand.
Exiling is nice, but it plays against so many other strategies that black is trying to do. Also, it would be nice to be able to mill yourself.
As I have it worded, this ability is powerful. I'll admit, it may be pushing to envelope. Still, at least this way, you can use the -X ability the turn it comes into play. Maybe not all the time, but it's possible.
Had to rework the finisher to work with her new abilities.
If this seems too pushed, then possibly this:
+2: Each opponent puts the top 3 cards of his/her library in to the graveyard.
-X: Put a creature card with converted mana cost X from an opponent's graveyard onto the battlefield under your control. That creature is a Nightmare in addition to its other types.
-9: Each opponent discards his/her hand.
With this version, I can at least throw it down, and possibly nab a good creature from the GY the turn it comes into play.
As it is, I just don't see it being used as a finisher over Jace, Memory Adept. Even with that said, I'd like to give this guy a chance. I've been surprised before.
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Ummm...against creature-lite control this thing says "kill me or lose when I ultimate". It doesn't care about hitting creatures. Basically forces them to find that Detention Sphere in a hurry...and hope that you don't counter the sphere.
Is he GREAT? No. But people forget that decks that play this guy aren't going to run him out without ways to protect him. People are using the scope of what cards we know right this second and the decks people have been playing for the last 2 months to judge this. I think that's a huge mistake, and while I certainly don't think his "milling" is remotely the cool factor here, I think stealing creatures that are important to them (like a Voice, BTE, or Fiendslayer) is huge. Heck, I'd be willing to let him die if it means I get your 5 drop.
It'll take some tweaking... but he's hardly Tibalt.
turn 2 omen speaker
turn 3 ashiok
wishful thinking play. but i think it can go like that and go win in a few turns after ashiok goes down with some more creature and some removals.
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Sure, it's a 3 mana planeswalker that starts out with 5 loyalty, but high loyalty doesn't matter because it can be completely ignored by most decks anyhow.
Aggro decks will just be happy you wasted your turn 3 doing nothing and kills you before it does anything useful. Even if it does snag a creature from an aggro deck it will probably be a small aggressive creature and not worth much for defense.
Control decks mostly don't care about the high starting loyalty because they get rid of planeswalkers via other means. It's only good against control decks if you can get it to its ultimate (or get really really lucky with exiling a creature), and if the opponent couldn't counter/bounce/exile/destroy Ashiok by then, you probably could have won with a number of other cards that would actually be useful in other matchups too.
This is exactly the mentality Ashiok players will hope their opponents will adopt.
It wouldn't take long for Ashiok to do something in many situations.
T3: Cast Ashiok, find Boros Reckoner
T4: Put Reckoner into play
Five loyalty out of the gate is big, but Ashiock can outright be ignored in a number of situations. This is the same criticism I had about Gideon 2.0: it doesn't matter if he has a ton of loyalty, if something can be ignored while you get your face bashed in then you're not doing yourself any favors.
I will say this much: if Wizards was trying to get a low cost walker that could steal creatures, then I understand how they arrived at this. That's a hard function to balance because it can easily be OP.
Sadly Abrupt Decay makes this card significantly worse. With Liliana, Domri and even Ajani you can get a small to moderate gain with a single activation, whereas Ashiok really gets you jack **** if you can only activate once. Losing the state of the exiled cards after leaving the battlefield compounds the problem.
I'll concede that since we don't know the rest of the spoilers yet, it stands to reason something could bust Ashiok wide open and we just don't know it yet.
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"I do nothing for at least 4 turns, then do a powerful effect" does not make for a strong planeswalker.
This is true of virtually all Planeswalkers ever printed.
The flaw in that reasoning, if you don't see it already, is that when a control deck gives an aggro deck an entire turn advantage in dealing damage, any well-constructed aggro deck will be able to turn that into the decisive advantage that wins them the game. If you're playing Ashiok out as the player who is presently on the defensive, it doesn't matter that s/he's (what gender is this character, anyway?) eventually a threat, because the game will be decided before you can trigger the ultimate and because to get to the ultimate, the card does *nothing* for an extended period of time anyway.
I'm aggro, you're control. You're playing first (otherwise four power is a lowball estimate for me, unless you removed one). So you drop Ashiok, then I drop a creature and swing four to your face. The next turn, you now can either +2 Ashiok again (if you failed to exile any good creatures, say), or you can put one creature on the battlefield.
On turn four, Ashiok is worth one creature of variable value as a defender, sometimes. That's not the worst thing ever considering you can reasonably expect to pull another creature in two turns, but, like with all card evaluations, the key to remember is opportunity cost.
Instead of Ashiok, you could have played a consistently powerful defensive creature for 3 mana - likely one that can generate card advantage (there are plenty of card advantage generating creatures) at least as well as Ashiok does. Ashiok doesn't do anything for you against fast aggro
Ashiok is a threat, not an answer. That's not a strike against a card, but Ashiok is marginal as a threat as well, because 1UB conditional threats aren't in high demand - very few UB decks are play-threats-til-you-win decks. The threats that those colors do play are usually cards that sit in your hand until you've completely stabilized the board, then you play them and win within a turn or two.
You pay people to play test, so actually play test. Unless they honesty still believe mill is a legitimate strategy in either Standard or Modern. Dimir is regarded as one of the weakest guilds because they wanted to push mill so hard in U/. I'm not asking for "draw, go" here, but if you're going the creature/combat route at least stick with it for all colours.
I guess we had quirky and innovative PW for RBandU, so next is a weak WandG one? ... Yeah, probably not going to happen anytime soon.
I'm not sure this card was ever intended for Spike. Johnny is going to have a field day with it. "Don't print cards like this" seems like the wrong response - it's a very cool card (that's probably why it already has so many fans despite it's clear drawbacks!). They should keep printing cards like this, and we should keep playing other cards in the competitive scene.
Yes and no. If you notice, he's growing horns and claws, and there's a reverant of a soul nearby. So Ashiok is right smack-dab in the middle between Returned and Theros Demon (Returned can become a demon if they are evil enough). So first half demon walker?
because it wont always be that perfect. that openning hand is considered god draw.
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UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
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I'm intrigued.
If you steal 1 Aetherling, and you can mill faster because you have Ashiok, don't you win that battle?
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
It does in the right situation and at the right cost. A 3-mana threat that dodges most of control's removal and wins you the game unanswered is strong. She is hitting them with her ultimate on turn 7, leaving them defenseless and sticking around to steal any creatures she might have hit.
Think about big Jace and his mill 10, it plays similarly when used as a control vs control wincon (a common use over the past year), doing nothing for a while then winning the game. Obviously he is stronger...but he is also 2 more to cast, making him slower, more likely to get countered, and more difficult to protect.
I'm okay with printing creative and innovating cards. However, when they are done with high profile cards, such as PWs, then you're going to draw some heavy criticism. Not to say "Johnny" cards shouldn't be mythic or rare.