Getting a goyf so late is not that great of a deal.
Lets say magic wonderland
turn 1 deathrite shaman
turn 2 ashiok and you mill 3 and hit goyf
turn 3 you use -2 to put goyf into play..
unless you hit another fetchland in that time your graveyard is empty and your opponent knew from his turn 2 what was coming making it likely that your goyf will be a 1/2 wow...
that is the worst magical christmasland scenario attempt i've ever seen. here:
turn 1 fetch, deathrite shaman
turn 2 fetch, ashiok, +2 milling two tarmogoyfs
turn 3 -2 for a tarmogoyf, cast delirium skeins discarding faerie tauntings, phyrexian soulgorger, and another ashiok while they discard 3 path to exiles
turn 4 -2 for another 7/8 tarmogoyf
I think this card is just straight up bad for Standard.
Mill decks (w/ control shell) probably won't even need it. The fact that it's +2 only target's opponents is not good. I don't want to compare to Nephalia Drownyard, but at w/ 2 of the land you can double drown per turn.
She's not Tibalt bad, she's more like Venser bad. Which is to say, more narrow than terrible.
I was pleasantly surprised though by seeing a third walker in the set. New walker's are always nice. Plus it's about time that U/B gets a planeswalker that doesn't rely on artifacts to be playable.
Conceptually I love this card... Practically this is missed opportunity for a dedicated Mill planeswalker.
Counting all the Jace incarnations we've had quite a few Mill planeswalkers so far actually. Unlike the previous ones, this one is much more narrower so you would expect it to be more focused... However, it fails to deliver.
You only have one ability to use when it enters the game and should have been at least 5 cards to exile. The ultimate is overpriced and can be played around. Mill decks will play faster mill cards and control decks have more resilient finishers. At best this is a sideboard card.
It's not Tibalt bad but definitely on par with something like Gideon, Champion of Justice so I'm expecting this to settle around the $3-$4 mark.
Is there any hope for a strong UB planeswalker? I'd love to see a high risk high reward kind of walker for the combination - Power at a life cost or something.
Conceptually I love this card... Practically this is missed opportunity for a dedicated Mill planeswalker.
Counting all the Jace incarnations we've had quite a few Mill planeswalkers so far actually. Unlike the previous ones, this one is much more narrower so you would expect it to be more focused... However, it fails to deliver.
You only have one ability to use when it enters the game and should have been at least 5 cards to exile. The ultimate is overpriced and can be played around. Mill decks will play faster mill cards and control decks have more resilient finishers. At best this is a sideboard card.
It's not Tibalt bad but definitely on par with something like Gideon, Champion of Justice so I'm expecting this to settle around the $3-$4 mark.
Is there any hope for a strong UB planeswalker? I'd love to see a high risk high reward kind of walker for the combination - Power at a life cost or something.
I hope they abandon making mill planeswalkers after this abomination. I mean it had potential, but I guess Wizards likes giving the gifts to other colors (RG). If only it exiled the cards face down and you could look at them and your opponent couldn't. As it is now, if you don't exile anything, they kill you, if you exile anything unthreatening, they attack through it and kill you, and if you exile something good, they attack Ashiok and kill him. It has no protection and it telegraphs your plays sooooo bad, its ultimate is terrible, etc.
Why couldn't it have draw! Something like -2 Target player draws a card, then discard a card. Starts with 3 loyalty, and +1 is target creature gets -X/-X where X is half your loyalty rounded up. Is that so hard?
Honestly, this card is pretty much impossible to analyze for Standard because the meta it will be played it doesn't exist yet.
Yes, in the current Standard meta, this card is really disgustingly bad. Chances are, this card will be bad in Theros Standard as well.
However, the card is niche enough that it could find a place if the meta allows. There are cards that do interact with it in its colors (Dimir Charm is the first card that comes to mind) that could allow it to make a splash.
I'm not going to doubt just yet, but I'm also not expecting it to Top 8 any Opens any time soon.
EDIT: let it just be stated that the reason I'm defending this card is because I want to play it (UB looks so fun with Thoughtsieze being back in Standard). That being said, my opinion and logic is obviously biased.
If Control is big, this card is an easy include. Mills them, plays their big creatures, and can completely strip their hands. Although the last ability takes a while to get online, he drops down early enough for it to shake up the late game, if you don't mill anything for his second ability to use.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
I like this card because i can use it to finish the game instead of Aetherling. Maybe I'm being greedy as far as mana, but I want to try Esper Superfriends now with the new Elspeth.
On the other hand, Renounce the Guilds seems like an effective way to deal with Gruul goodstuff, and this eats the spalsh-hate really hard.
Do people REALLY only think 1 card at a time? If you're playing this card, you're also probably playing ThoughtseizeLifebane Zombieduress and Dimir Charm. You should know what cards they have in their hand, and what is coming up next. It's for a U/B control deck... Anything worthy playing you should've already gotten rid of by the time he hits the board and then you're keeping them from playing anything at this point meanwhile you're casting creatures without paying mana and beating them with their own creatures
I love it. The art, the style, everything about this card... I hope I can practically steal this walker from people.
The problem with this card is that too many people think this is a planeswalker. It looks like one, but it isn't. This is a sorcery that may take a few turns to resolve.
It either says something like: 1UB - Exile the top 3 cards of opponent's library and. Gain 5 life on your opponents turn.
Or: 1UB - Exile the top 3, then on your next turn you may take a creature with cmc 5 or less from them.
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Standard WUControlWU
Commander (EDH) WBRKaalia of the VastWBR WRGMayael the AnimaWRG
The problem with this card is that too many people think this is a planeswalker. It looks like one, but it isn't. This is a sorcery that may take a few turns to resolve.
It either says something like: 1UB - Exile the top 3 cards of opponent's library and. Gain 5 life on your opponents turn.
Or: 1UB - Exile the top 3, then on your next turn you may take a creature with cmc 5 or less from them.
And both of these effects aren't really that great are they?
I'd much rather spend the mana and card on either my own creature which can attack the next turn (eg. Nightveil Specter) or defend (lifegain if you consider the planeswalker being attacked that), a counterspell/removal or card draw.
The more I consider it the worse this card gets... this just has very little impact and for control mirrors I can think of better cards.
He allows you to cast their creature while destroying their game plan... That let's you keep your mana open to cast a syncopate, charms, doom blade.... It's what I would think most control players want.... The ability to cast creatures, while leaving enough mana open to cast spells during their turn.
Think about running UWB and you Azorious charm a creature on top of their library, then exile it so only you can play it.
It's not like the cards come back after the Planeswalker is gone. You can cast another one if they manage to get rid of the first one.
I feel like people are seriously underrating this card, at least for Standard use. To me it looks like a great option against control that will also be pretty good against mid-range Jund-style decks that don't play early threats.
Against control you have a cheap win-con who can also be disruptive in terms of messing with their ability to scry or even exiling their few win-cons (i.e. you hit an Elspeth and an Aetherling...they better work dang hard to make sure that last Elspeth resolves and sticks around). Most importantly she just puts a really fast clock on a control opponent, threatening to ultimate them and basically just win the game in a hurry.
She might be even better against midrange, where you can just generate massive value by protecting her and beating them with their own stuff. If you untap with her you have an opportunity to just take over the game by protecting her with removal/counters then using her to effectively draw and play for free their stuff every couple of turns.
Against aggro she is definitely subpar, but even there she isn't outright useless unless they have the nut draw. If they ignore her she probably starts pumping out blockers for you every other turn, maybe even a little more often, and if they go after her then at least that is 5+ damage not coming towards you. Yeah, you probably side her out after game one against Burning-Tree decks, but that isn't the end of the world.
IMO she will see some play in every deck that can cast her in Standard, be it aggro boarding her in against control, or control playing it main because midrange/control are a big part of the meta.
This card is going to wreck people who build their deck around scrying. It is going to be hilarious. I don't even want to think what is going to happen if this ball gets rolling in Legacy.
I plan on attempting to live the dream with this guy. Play him turn 3, Verdict turn 4 then play a 4-5 mana bomb out of their exile with the -X. That is literally a game breaker.
We have a lot of cards to see. Remember JTMS wasn't great when he was first spoiled either, and BBE knocked him out of standard playability for some time. Context and meta is key with a card like this.
Tibalt comparison is wrong. Tibalt cannot win you a game, provide CA or affect board under any circumstances.
This guy can do all three, but is very clunky at doing it.
I also wonder if he could have an impact on brainstorm-legal formats.
Ashiok is pretty much EXACTLY what the article says... amazing against control and decent-to-bad against aggro. This PW will make control players WISH it was Domri.
We'll have to wait and see the meta before making a "power judgement" but you would be a fool not include in your 75.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
Do people REALLY only think 1 card at a time? If you're playing this card, you're also probably playing ThoughtseizeLifebane Zombieduress and Dimir Charm. You should know what cards they have in their hand, and what is coming up next. It's for a U/B control deck... Anything worthy playing you should've already gotten rid of by the time he hits the board and then you're keeping them from playing anything at this point meanwhile you're casting creatures without paying mana and beating them with their own creatures
I love it. The art, the style, everything about this card... I hope I can practically steal this walker from people.
Me too. Looking at this thread we both should be lucky and get them for cheap.
Turn 2 Omenspeaker, turn 3 this guy. What are agrro decks supposed to do now? They have to use much of their resources to get past a 3 toughness blocker and a 5 loyalty planeswalker. They probably have drop their hand to get rid of both giving a control deck clear advantage.
And if they dont you just drop all their creaturs against them.
I would be careful to call this card bad. Even really good cards got called bad at some point and this as a three mana planeswalker is definitely not as bad a 6 mana [CARD]Cyclops Tyrant
[/CARD]
I think people will quickly figure out how powerful this is once they put it in the right deck. Against control it's obviously a house, but even against agro it has a ton of loyalty and can be a huge roadblock by putting extra blockers into play for free.
I don't know enough about Standard, let alone the upcoming post-rotation Standard environment, to have any idea about whether or not Ashiok will see play in that format. I can say, however, that this card does feel very Mythic, and it will most certainly see play in kitchen table games, EDH/Commander, and other casual formats to be sure.
If nobody else wants this card, then I will be happy to relieve them of it.
EDIT: Also, I believe that for the first time since Lorwyn and the Core Sets, all five colors are represented in the Planeswalkers of a single set.
I think people will quickly figure out how powerful this is once they put it in the right deck. Against control it's obviously a house, but even against agro it has a ton of loyalty and can be a huge roadblock by putting extra blockers into play for free.
It's a huge roadblock that can't actually do anything until turn 4, and when it can do something, aggro will just attack into it because the cards are exiled face-up.
Ashiok is just not good in the current meta. It's really not good against any deck that's playing creatures on turn 1 or 2. I don't think it can ever be good unless we see a huge reversal with control becoming the top deck.
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The wedding is over. Now it's time for the honeymoon.
this walker is just incredible. yesterday, i was not going to buy a booster box, but now. oh yeah. i'm gonna buy a box!
again haters gonna hate. this walker will see play in standard. and these are the money cards.
imagine a 3cmc, 3 loyalty counters, and has a plus 2 that will matter with control.
and is why this card is strong. it eats an attack. stalls you the game.
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A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
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that is the worst magical christmasland scenario attempt i've ever seen. here:
turn 1 fetch, deathrite shaman
turn 2 fetch, ashiok, +2 milling two tarmogoyfs
turn 3 -2 for a tarmogoyf, cast delirium skeins discarding faerie tauntings, phyrexian soulgorger, and another ashiok while they discard 3 path to exiles
turn 4 -2 for another 7/8 tarmogoyf
boooom
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
Mill decks (w/ control shell) probably won't even need it. The fact that it's +2 only target's opponents is not good. I don't want to compare to Nephalia Drownyard, but at w/ 2 of the land you can double drown per turn.
Can't really compare to Drownyard imo.
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
I was pleasantly surprised though by seeing a third walker in the set. New walker's are always nice. Plus it's about time that U/B gets a planeswalker that doesn't rely on artifacts to be playable.
Counting all the Jace incarnations we've had quite a few Mill planeswalkers so far actually. Unlike the previous ones, this one is much more narrower so you would expect it to be more focused... However, it fails to deliver.
You only have one ability to use when it enters the game and should have been at least 5 cards to exile. The ultimate is overpriced and can be played around. Mill decks will play faster mill cards and control decks have more resilient finishers. At best this is a sideboard card.
It's not Tibalt bad but definitely on par with something like Gideon, Champion of Justice so I'm expecting this to settle around the $3-$4 mark.
Is there any hope for a strong UB planeswalker? I'd love to see a high risk high reward kind of walker for the combination - Power at a life cost or something.
I hope they abandon making mill planeswalkers after this abomination. I mean it had potential, but I guess Wizards likes giving the gifts to other colors (RG). If only it exiled the cards face down and you could look at them and your opponent couldn't. As it is now, if you don't exile anything, they kill you, if you exile anything unthreatening, they attack through it and kill you, and if you exile something good, they attack Ashiok and kill him. It has no protection and it telegraphs your plays sooooo bad, its ultimate is terrible, etc.
Why couldn't it have draw! Something like -2 Target player draws a card, then discard a card. Starts with 3 loyalty, and +1 is target creature gets -X/-X where X is half your loyalty rounded up. Is that so hard?
Yes, in the current Standard meta, this card is really disgustingly bad. Chances are, this card will be bad in Theros Standard as well.
However, the card is niche enough that it could find a place if the meta allows. There are cards that do interact with it in its colors (Dimir Charm is the first card that comes to mind) that could allow it to make a splash.
I'm not going to doubt just yet, but I'm also not expecting it to Top 8 any Opens any time soon.
EDIT: let it just be stated that the reason I'm defending this card is because I want to play it (UB looks so fun with Thoughtsieze being back in Standard). That being said, my opinion and logic is obviously biased.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
On the other hand, Renounce the Guilds seems like an effective way to deal with Gruul goodstuff, and this eats the spalsh-hate really hard.
I love it. The art, the style, everything about this card... I hope I can practically steal this walker from people.
It either says something like: 1UB - Exile the top 3 cards of opponent's library and. Gain 5 life on your opponents turn.
Or: 1UB - Exile the top 3, then on your next turn you may take a creature with cmc 5 or less from them.
WUControlWU
Commander (EDH)
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
WRGMayael the AnimaWRG
And both of these effects aren't really that great are they?
I'd much rather spend the mana and card on either my own creature which can attack the next turn (eg. Nightveil Specter) or defend (lifegain if you consider the planeswalker being attacked that), a counterspell/removal or card draw.
The more I consider it the worse this card gets... this just has very little impact and for control mirrors I can think of better cards.
Think about running UWB and you Azorious charm a creature on top of their library, then exile it so only you can play it.
It's not like the cards come back after the Planeswalker is gone. You can cast another one if they manage to get rid of the first one.
Zombie PW FTW!
Against control you have a cheap win-con who can also be disruptive in terms of messing with their ability to scry or even exiling their few win-cons (i.e. you hit an Elspeth and an Aetherling...they better work dang hard to make sure that last Elspeth resolves and sticks around). Most importantly she just puts a really fast clock on a control opponent, threatening to ultimate them and basically just win the game in a hurry.
She might be even better against midrange, where you can just generate massive value by protecting her and beating them with their own stuff. If you untap with her you have an opportunity to just take over the game by protecting her with removal/counters then using her to effectively draw and play for free their stuff every couple of turns.
Against aggro she is definitely subpar, but even there she isn't outright useless unless they have the nut draw. If they ignore her she probably starts pumping out blockers for you every other turn, maybe even a little more often, and if they go after her then at least that is 5+ damage not coming towards you. Yeah, you probably side her out after game one against Burning-Tree decks, but that isn't the end of the world.
IMO she will see some play in every deck that can cast her in Standard, be it aggro boarding her in against control, or control playing it main because midrange/control are a big part of the meta.
I plan on attempting to live the dream with this guy. Play him turn 3, Verdict turn 4 then play a 4-5 mana bomb out of their exile with the -X. That is literally a game breaker.
We have a lot of cards to see. Remember JTMS wasn't great when he was first spoiled either, and BBE knocked him out of standard playability for some time. Context and meta is key with a card like this.
This guy can do all three, but is very clunky at doing it.
I also wonder if he could have an impact on brainstorm-legal formats.
We'll have to wait and see the meta before making a "power judgement" but you would be a fool not include in your 75.
Me too. Looking at this thread we both should be lucky and get them for cheap.
Turn 2 Omenspeaker, turn 3 this guy. What are agrro decks supposed to do now? They have to use much of their resources to get past a 3 toughness blocker and a 5 loyalty planeswalker. They probably have drop their hand to get rid of both giving a control deck clear advantage.
And if they dont you just drop all their creaturs against them.
I would be careful to call this card bad. Even really good cards got called bad at some point and this as a three mana planeswalker is definitely not as bad a 6 mana [CARD]Cyclops Tyrant
[/CARD]
If nobody else wants this card, then I will be happy to relieve them of it.
EDIT: Also, I believe that for the first time since Lorwyn and the Core Sets, all five colors are represented in the Planeswalkers of a single set.
Ashiok is just not good in the current meta. It's really not good against any deck that's playing creatures on turn 1 or 2. I don't think it can ever be good unless we see a huge reversal with control becoming the top deck.
Thanks to Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures!
again haters gonna hate. this walker will see play in standard. and these are the money cards.
imagine a 3cmc, 3 loyalty counters, and has a plus 2 that will matter with control.
and is why this card is strong. it eats an attack. stalls you the game.
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!