It is vastly underrated. Just how much impact it will have on Standard is unclear, obviously. Outside of the obvious control matchup, any deck not packing Dreadbore or Hero's Downfall will find it difficult to deal with her, direct burn cards can also be a problem but 5 loyalty isn't easy to burn out without 2-for-1'ing yourself.
I think this card will be doing things in other formats, though.
I'm starting to like this guy more and more. He puts the same amount of pressure against control as Liliana and returning a Voice, Smiter, or Reckoner against aggro isn't too shabby.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
I have been testing her/him/it today in a Shardless Bug legacy deck, running 3of them.
That card is insane if not countered. I mean gamebreaker, especially casted at turn 2 with shaman in board. Turn 3 liliana after is a really strong play.
Card advantage guys!
Of course against combo you have to sidedeck her/him/it but against combo in general shardless bug has to change some other cards too.
Shhhhhhh!!!! (a secret): FoW friendly !!!
I really doubt you're getting card advantage out of this PW in Legacy.
I really doubt you're getting card advantage out of this PW in Legacy.
?? The creatures are absurdly more powerful. Just look at the 2-drops and then Ashiok would still be at 3 loyalty.
I doubt you could Ultimate before combo goes off (with 5-7-9-11) but being able to pitch to FoW is very relevant vs. Combo then you side them out like so many other cards that are "bad against combo." I'm not saying it's the next best thing in Legacy but Mestremuten's post doesn't surprise me after playtesting in Standard... definitely seems worthwhile to at the very least test in various Legacy builds.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
?? The creatures are absurdly more powerful. Just look at the 2-drops and then Ashiok would still be at 3 loyalty.
I doubt you could Ultimate before combo goes off (with 5-7-9-11) but being able to pitch to FoW is very relevant vs. Combo then you side them out like so many other cards that are "bad against combo." I'm not saying it's the next best thing in Legacy but Mestremuten's post doesn't surprise me after playtesting in Standard... definitely seems worthwhile to at the very least test in various Legacy builds.
You said card advantage not 1 for 1. Besides, what are you cutting to play it?
Hmmm...so I initially dismissed this guy as complete trash. "Oh, a PW for Mill Decks. What total garbage.."
Between all the good press and second looks he's getting everywhere I read, and thinking more about him myself, I think he's (yes, 'He') just fine.
Hell, I'm gonna run him in my casual multilplayer reanimator deck. I mean, if nothing else, he:
1) Mills into some decent chump blockers
2) Soaks up a bit of hate (aka 'damage tampon') before I can COMBO OUT.
3) His ultimate hits all players which could be very nice indeed in MP format, for setting up ahead of time..
Oh yeah, I need to live long enough to combo out. Considering it is a COMBO DECK it really hurts in the department of interactivity, let alone, defense. This guy helps there tremendously, or might. And at 3 mana, I'm gonna take another look at him anyway. That CMC is very useful.
I think he's just generally useful in probably most decks he could be run in. To hell with mill.dec. That is not the only place you want to run this guy.
I'm sold.
3) His ultimate hits all players which could be very nice indeed in MP format, for setting up ahead of time..
Eh... his ulti hits opponents only and it exiles - which is lucky for you if you want to use Living Death. Personally I'd rather use Hypergenesis if I can go magic christmasland and ulti on Ashiok.
Said it in the price spec thread, saying it again here. It is nice to see Ashiok getting the love he deserves. She really does hold its own quite well. I got to play him a bit with a couple of my EDH buddies and it managed to help win me the game a couple times, I even got a Seedborn Muse with her that became quite relevant to one of my victories. And the last game I played of the night, over the course of the game I managed to just completely mill out my opponent with her. It was awesome.
You said card advantage not 1 for 1. Besides, what are you cutting to play it?
It was Mestremuten's post. I was just saying it seems feasible that taking 2cc absurdly powerful creatures (or even Deathrites/1cc stuff) could be more powerful than than saccing a creature or a linear discard plus the upside of Ashiok discards to FoW to combo/whatever. And, yeah deciding how to fit it in a finely tuned list is the question. My opinion is that it deserves significant testing.
Must say if it isn't obvious for the Ashiok doubters, you really don't understand the card until you play it. In that fashion it also shares Liliana of the Veil qualities. I remember the exact same discussion then when Liliana was spoiled... people said play it and see what the 1BB can do for you. Once you try Ashiok in Standard/whatever, you'll see that 5 loyalty (getting around 4 damage stuff) is bonkers for a turn 3 play then Ashiok just "gets you" unlike other 5 Loyalty 3cc PWs like Ajani (who also only +1s compared to Ashiok's +2).
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
I've been playing Ashiok in Modern since she was spoiled. She is the NUTS. So many relevant creatures at 3cmc or less, dodges bolt, can easily soak up 2+ turns of attacks, especially when protected with something like a Goyf or Kitchen Finks. Also, Turn 2-ing her off of a deathrite, on the play, that's big game. I'm pretty sure she's better than Jace, Ajani, and Domri in their respective decks. I've even had the god play (once) of turn 1 DRS, turn 2 Ashiok, exile Thundermaw, turn 3 take it and smash.
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You said card advantage not 1 for 1. Besides, what are you cutting to play it?
Not going to comment on Ashiok's legacy playability since I don't play legacy, but I would just like to point out that in the example given you have both one of your opponent's cards and Ashiok in play, a straightforward 2 for 1.
The kind of slot that makes you nervous every time he takes three cards off the top...anticipating the worst and hoping for the best. He has a strong presence. It plays head games. Throws you out of the game mentally. Then, that one precious card you have been waiting to draw so you could cast and remove Ashiok gets sent to no mans land. That's what Ashiok does. It is seriously an irritatingly cool card. Oh hey, you had something I can use in your deck, oops I exiled it and used it against you. Nothing says victory like using your opponents own card to kill him.
Hypothesis: He works in certain decks.
Requires extensive testing to reach conclusion.
Now does anyone know what kind of a slot or role he fulfills?
From my testing of Ashiok in Modern BUG Midrange (as more of a test of concept after hearing from another poster that Ashiok was good), I think Ashiok takes up a threat slot--a slot that turns into something pretty weird against certain decks.
Against aggro and midrange, Ashiok tends to snag multiple creatures. Ashiok does tend to get ignored by aggro if it still has 2+ creatures by the time Ashiok comes down, but if they're down to 1 guy, Ashiok can often snag a guy, get hit, play the guy, make it chump, then play another guy. Getting 2 creatures (and a little life) out of 1 card swings games.
Against control, Ashiok does his/her best Nephalia Drownyard imitation because that ult is dangerous enough to force mini-ults as control drops removal/burn/creatures trying to deal with him/her. Depending on the speed of control's clock, Drownyard impressions can be MVP or just plain ignored (although my Modern UWR Control deck has a tough time taking down Ashiok with anything other than a counterspell, and it also has a tough time clocking opponents).
Against combo, Ashiok can't cheat out creatures fast enough and gets ignored.
At least Standard basically has no combo decks, so I anticipate that Ashiok will do well there...at least until s/he gets his/her face smashed in by Aetherling or Elspeth 3.0 from those new, nearly creature-free control decks. But if they can't find their finishers fast enough...
Not going to comment on Ashiok's legacy playability since I don't play legacy, but I would just like to point out that in the example given you have both one of your opponent's cards and Ashiok in play, a straightforward 2 for 1.
No it is not. If you don't understand that concept please leave the discussion.
From my testing of Ashiok in Modern BUG Midrange (as more of a test of concept after hearing from another poster that Ashiok was good), I think Ashiok takes up a threat slot--a slot that turns into something pretty weird against certain decks.
Against aggro and midrange, Ashiok tends to snag multiple creatures. Ashiok does tend to get ignored by aggro if it still has 2+ creatures by the time Ashiok comes down, but if they're down to 1 guy, Ashiok can often snag a guy, get hit, play the guy, make it chump, then play another guy. Getting 2 creatures (and a little life) out of 1 card swings games.
Against control, Ashiok does his/her best Nephalia Drownyard imitation because that ult is dangerous enough to force mini-ults as control drops removal/burn/creatures trying to deal with him/her. Depending on the speed of control's clock, Drownyard impressions can be MVP or just plain ignored (although my Modern UWR Control deck has a tough time taking down Ashiok with anything other than a counterspell, and it also has a tough time clocking opponents).
Against combo, Ashiok can't cheat out creatures fast enough and gets ignored.
At least Standard basically has no combo decks, so I anticipate that Ashiok will do well there...at least until s/he gets his/her face smashed in by Aetherling or Elspeth 3.0 from those new, nearly creature-free control decks. But if they can't find their finishers fast enough...
Makes sense. If anything against Control/Combo, it's a FoW pitch-option of which Liliana is not then game-2 you likely sideboard Ashiok out like so many other cards.
I've not tested in Legacy YET. But for Standard, you really need to try it yourself before solidifying any kind of opinion. Again, I was also of the mindset it was a control or vs. slower midrange sideboard option. The thing is that 5 loyalty and +2 (vs. +1) is key. It's so good for a 3drop... compare to the recent Ajani which sees some play in WW beaters. Ashiok is so much better/more powerful because it also ticks up to 5 but where Ajani requires creatures to do damage, Ashiok is a win-con itself.
So then Ashoik/Ajani will survive more than one attack (almost always) being they won't have 5power ready to attack on their next turn (turn 3/4) or you did something very wrong on turns 1/2 such as keeping a 5land and 3/4-drops hand. But where Ajani NEEDS a creature which is VERY disrupt-able on turns 2/3/4, Ashiok keeps on trucking towards "card advantage" or Ultimate and @ +2 a turn vs. Ajani's +1 with NO creature required. Now against Control, Ashiok is even more silly as you will randomly hit Aetherlings or you just go to 11 pretty damn fast @ 5-7-9-11 and then you threaten their entire hand and a LIVE Ashiok of which they better top-deck a 1-damage spell.
That's pretty well the best explanation with Standard outside of actual testing of which I highly recommend for anyone wanting to be competitive in the new Standard. I will add that this past week and @ FNM, I quite often played Ashiok as a 5-drop with Doom Blade/Essence Scatter/Negate protection. AND, Ashiok is a VERY quality late-game top-deck especially on an empty board. The card is GOOOD... not ready to say "Liliana of the Veil good" YET but being a somewhat fast win-con on a 3drop is pretty awesome and definitely easier on the mana in UB, lol.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
Starcity games has a playtesting vid out on thier youtube channel. It features a grixis superfriends deck that runs her/him/it whatever and seems pretty sic. I also noticed they have missprints of him on ebay for $300-600! Makes me want to crack a box or two.
A guy at my fnm fetured him in a esper control deck that took first place.
Omenspeaker and Returned Phalanx are the only cards that will prevent this from being an expensive Fog against aggro and midrange.
A bit of a threat against control. Will any control not play Hero's Downfall though? You really need the ultimate after 5 turns, exiling cards is only midly annoying. Might be good enough at exiling finishers to be a sideboard card.
It isnt overcosted because those cards combined are 3 CMC too...
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
I think this card will be doing things in other formats, though.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
I really doubt you're getting card advantage out of this PW in Legacy.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
?? The creatures are absurdly more powerful. Just look at the 2-drops and then Ashiok would still be at 3 loyalty.
I doubt you could Ultimate before combo goes off (with 5-7-9-11) but being able to pitch to FoW is very relevant vs. Combo then you side them out like so many other cards that are "bad against combo." I'm not saying it's the next best thing in Legacy but Mestremuten's post doesn't surprise me after playtesting in Standard... definitely seems worthwhile to at the very least test in various Legacy builds.
I'll second this in legacy or modern. Or Turn two off deathrite.
You said card advantage not 1 for 1. Besides, what are you cutting to play it?
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
Between all the good press and second looks he's getting everywhere I read, and thinking more about him myself, I think he's (yes, 'He') just fine.
Hell, I'm gonna run him in my casual multilplayer reanimator deck. I mean, if nothing else, he:
1) Mills into some decent chump blockers
2) Soaks up a bit of hate (aka 'damage tampon') before I can COMBO OUT.
3) His ultimate hits all players which could be very nice indeed in MP format, for setting up ahead of time..
Oh yeah, I need to live long enough to combo out. Considering it is a COMBO DECK it really hurts in the department of interactivity, let alone, defense. This guy helps there tremendously, or might. And at 3 mana, I'm gonna take another look at him anyway. That CMC is very useful.
I think he's just generally useful in probably most decks he could be run in. To hell with mill.dec. That is not the only place you want to run this guy.
I'm sold.
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"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
It was Mestremuten's post. I was just saying it seems feasible that taking 2cc absurdly powerful creatures (or even Deathrites/1cc stuff) could be more powerful than than saccing a creature or a linear discard plus the upside of Ashiok discards to FoW to combo/whatever. And, yeah deciding how to fit it in a finely tuned list is the question. My opinion is that it deserves significant testing.
Must say if it isn't obvious for the Ashiok doubters, you really don't understand the card until you play it. In that fashion it also shares Liliana of the Veil qualities. I remember the exact same discussion then when Liliana was spoiled... people said play it and see what the 1BB can do for you. Once you try Ashiok in Standard/whatever, you'll see that 5 loyalty (getting around 4 damage stuff) is bonkers for a turn 3 play then Ashiok just "gets you" unlike other 5 Loyalty 3cc PWs like Ajani (who also only +1s compared to Ashiok's +2).
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
Not going to comment on Ashiok's legacy playability since I don't play legacy, but I would just like to point out that in the example given you have both one of your opponent's cards and Ashiok in play, a straightforward 2 for 1.
Hypothesis: He works in certain decks.
Requires extensive testing to reach conclusion.
Now does anyone know what kind of a slot or role he fulfills?
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From my testing of Ashiok in Modern BUG Midrange (as more of a test of concept after hearing from another poster that Ashiok was good), I think Ashiok takes up a threat slot--a slot that turns into something pretty weird against certain decks.
Against aggro and midrange, Ashiok tends to snag multiple creatures. Ashiok does tend to get ignored by aggro if it still has 2+ creatures by the time Ashiok comes down, but if they're down to 1 guy, Ashiok can often snag a guy, get hit, play the guy, make it chump, then play another guy. Getting 2 creatures (and a little life) out of 1 card swings games.
Against control, Ashiok does his/her best Nephalia Drownyard imitation because that ult is dangerous enough to force mini-ults as control drops removal/burn/creatures trying to deal with him/her. Depending on the speed of control's clock, Drownyard impressions can be MVP or just plain ignored (although my Modern UWR Control deck has a tough time taking down Ashiok with anything other than a counterspell, and it also has a tough time clocking opponents).
Against combo, Ashiok can't cheat out creatures fast enough and gets ignored.
At least Standard basically has no combo decks, so I anticipate that Ashiok will do well there...at least until s/he gets his/her face smashed in by Aetherling or Elspeth 3.0 from those new, nearly creature-free control decks. But if they can't find their finishers fast enough...
No it is not. If you don't understand that concept please leave the discussion.
He has been slowly creeping down from his initial prices on most stores.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
Yeah he's actually a 2 for 0 when you cast him and use him to snag a creature (and he still survives).
Makes sense. If anything against Control/Combo, it's a FoW pitch-option of which Liliana is not then game-2 you likely sideboard Ashiok out like so many other cards.
I've not tested in Legacy YET. But for Standard, you really need to try it yourself before solidifying any kind of opinion. Again, I was also of the mindset it was a control or vs. slower midrange sideboard option. The thing is that 5 loyalty and +2 (vs. +1) is key. It's so good for a 3drop... compare to the recent Ajani which sees some play in WW beaters. Ashiok is so much better/more powerful because it also ticks up to 5 but where Ajani requires creatures to do damage, Ashiok is a win-con itself.
So then Ashoik/Ajani will survive more than one attack (almost always) being they won't have 5power ready to attack on their next turn (turn 3/4) or you did something very wrong on turns 1/2 such as keeping a 5land and 3/4-drops hand. But where Ajani NEEDS a creature which is VERY disrupt-able on turns 2/3/4, Ashiok keeps on trucking towards "card advantage" or Ultimate and @ +2 a turn vs. Ajani's +1 with NO creature required. Now against Control, Ashiok is even more silly as you will randomly hit Aetherlings or you just go to 11 pretty damn fast @ 5-7-9-11 and then you threaten their entire hand and a LIVE Ashiok of which they better top-deck a 1-damage spell.
That's pretty well the best explanation with Standard outside of actual testing of which I highly recommend for anyone wanting to be competitive in the new Standard. I will add that this past week and @ FNM, I quite often played Ashiok as a 5-drop with Doom Blade/Essence Scatter/Negate protection. AND, Ashiok is a VERY quality late-game top-deck especially on an empty board. The card is GOOOD... not ready to say "Liliana of the Veil good" YET but being a somewhat fast win-con on a 3drop is pretty awesome and definitely easier on the mana in UB, lol.
A guy at my fnm fetured him in a esper control deck that took first place.
A bit of a threat against control. Will any control not play Hero's Downfall though? You really need the ultimate after 5 turns, exiling cards is only midly annoying. Might be good enough at exiling finishers to be a sideboard card.