Particularly in standard but also to some extent in modern and legacy a 2/2 flying creature is a legitimate threat
Are we playing the same legacy? The same legacy where like 90% of matches end by turn 3? A 2/2 flier is nothing compared to a well timed counterspell there.
Someone please explain to me how this will not see play in standard...
In a format where control decks are going to be azorius decks that plan on supreme verdict'ing on turn 4...who cares if you give your opponent a 2/2 flier but counter his thoughtseize?
You won't play it over Negate in standard and won't play it over Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm in legacy
I really hate hour much love everyone seems to go Negate. My entire magic career Negate had been a borderline unplayable card. And people like the difference between a 1cc and a 2cc is allt the difference in the world. And people will side This in against spell Pierce
If you're using this to counter counter spells you're doing it wrong. Dispel is a million times better at this job, and Negate is arguably much better (can counter artifacts, planeswalkers, etc.). I just see no reason to play this instead of a Negate / Dispel package out of the SB.
Are we playing the same legacy? The same legacy where like 90% of matches end by turn 3? A 2/2 flier is nothing compared to a well timed counterspell there.
No, we are definitely not playing the same Legacy. In my experience those games ending in the first three turns are the exception, and grindy games where a 2/2 flyer matters more common.
Basically games really only end on turn 3 when combo is involved, or sometimes when a Blood Moon is resolved. But neither deck is in the majority of "decks played", which tend to be much more creature-based like BUG, Stoneblade, or various dudes+Stifle/Daze/Wasteland (i.e. lots of Delver builds along with Fish and Slivers). Then you also have tribal semi-aggro/combo that is popular like Elves, Goblins, and Robots, along with grindy decks like Death+Taxes, Loam builds, and Pox builds.
And even when you have combo or Blood Moon in a match trying to go off in the first three turns there is a decent chance that the opponent disrupts it and pushes it to a long game. Pretty much the only games that are actually likely to end by turn 3 are the mirror matches between linear combo decks that don't really interact with each other. In those situations you often get a race to see who can goldfish first.
Long story short, there are plenty of games decided by small creatures grinding it out while counters, discard, and other disruption prevent the big haymakers that most people seem to think characterize Legacy.
This is the funniest counter in recent memory. I love how it can turn the gods into birds.
Like a lame magic trick or something.
"BEHOLD MORTAL, AS I SUMMON THE MIGHT OF DIVINI-"
"oop, presto change-o! It's a duck now!"
"I...but...divine..."
"Nope"
"But it's a god!"
"No it's a duck. You have a duck now"
"*weeps silently*"
"quack quack!"
"BEHOLD MORTAL, AS I SUMMON THE MIGHT OF DIVINI-"
"oop, presto change-o! It's a duck now!"
"I...but...divine..."
"Nope"
"But it's a god!"
"No it's a duck. You have a duck now"
"*weeps silently*"
"quack quack!"
I laughed way to much at this, i'm going to put this in my sig.
but about the card, i think it see play in standard based on the gods.
In modern, as people said it protects you combo that turn, so you can just win.
As for the other formats i don't play them, so i am not sure.
"BEHOLD MORTAL, AS I SUMMON THE MIGHT OF DIVINI-"
"oop, presto change-o! It's a duck now!"
"I...but...divine..."
"Nope"
"But it's a god!"
"No it's a duck. You have a duck now"
"*weeps silently*"
"quack quack!"
There are TONS of scenarios where this card is great...turn 4 with Thassa and this card in hand...
Man, I wish I could play Thassa and have mana open for counterspells...wait, my counterspell is one CMC? They will get a 2/2 flyer but I will get a god a turn earlier? Yeah, sign me up...
I am in no way underestimating this card. in my opinion you are all overestimating it. It's no worse than pongify which gave a 3/3 and still saw play. I think they are both representative of control and how it is played. What is the difference between this card and browbeat? you have the control and you make situational choices each and every game that you play. The 2/2 flyer is only going to hit the board when you deem it appropriate. And this card has tech oozing off of it. Someone was speaking earlier about how using this to counter your counter is a terrible idea because you lose two cards for little gain. That is of course false again. Because this card could be read two ways. As the counter spell or as a 1 mana flash flying 2/2. Granted that is unlikely to happen in standard now but imagine if this was printed while cawblade was around. A theoretical situation. You oblivion ring naming a creature they sac in response. You can let it go and your o ring hits the field all useless or you seize the opportunity counter it get your flyer blade up and start swinging. Fringe case at best but I know every magic player has at least one experience in a night of gaming where someone sacs in response or counters or hexproofs or does something else stupid to counter your play. In a deck that needs evasive bodies the double play might be enough. In a case like this it fills the same role as a man land.
I rambled for a bit there but my basic point is any card that gives you options is never bad.
So, if you find yourself in the incredibly rare situation where your opponent has 1 self-sacrificing non-land permanent on the board, and sacrifices that permanent before O-Ring resolves (in either a terrible misplay, or in an attempt to make you o-ring one of your own permanents), you can then pay 2WU and (effectively) discard a card for a 2/2 flying creature with flash?
That sounds horrendous.
In a vast majority of eternal applications, Spell Pierce will do the same things as this card without giving your opponent a clock (and still be more versatile, hitting planeswalkers and artifacts). Flusterstorm will be better in the applications Spell Pierce is not.
Esperblade won't play it.
RUG delver won't play it.
BUG doesn't need it.
Reanimator won't play it.
TES isn't touching it.
Show & Tell could possibly play it (mostly for the mirror & humility.dec)
Omni-Show won't play, pact is better
In modern you want to hit cranial plating, birthing pod, Karn, blood moon, thoughtseize, scapeshift and splinter twin. Pierce hits all of these, Swansong hits half. Of the half swansong even hits, pierce is usually just as good. I could see it possibly being better than pierce against Scapeshift. That's too narrow a choice for too little a percentage of the field.
Vintage Oath is about the only place I'd agree this card is solid.
So, if you find yourself in the incredibly rare situation where your opponent has 1 self-sacrificing non-land permanent on the board, and sacrifices that permanent before O-Ring resolves (in either a terrible misplay, or in an attempt to make you o-ring one of your own permanents), you can then pay 2WU and (effectively) discard a card for a 2/2 flying creature with flash?
That sounds horrendous.
In a vast majority of eternal applications, Spell Pierce will do the same things as this card without giving your opponent a clock (and still be more versatile, hitting planeswalkers and artifacts). Flusterstorm will be better in the applications Spell Pierce is not.
Esperblade won't play it.
RUG delver won't play it.
BUG doesn't need it.
Reanimator won't play it.
TES isn't touching it.
Show & Tell could possibly play it (mostly for the mirror & humility.dec)
Omni-Show won't play, pact is better
In modern you want to hit cranial plating, birthing pod, Karn, blood moon, thoughtseize, scapeshift and splinter twin. Pierce hits all of these, Swansong hits half. Of the half swansong even hits, pierce is usually just as good. I could see it possibly being better than pierce against Scapeshift. That's too narrow a choice for too little a percentage of the field.
Vintage Oath is about the only place I'd agree this card is solid.
Even in standard, there are better options.
This will see all kinds of play in legacy. It's essentially a 1cc hard counter for combo decks that don't give two craps about a flying bear. Its better than spell pierce for the simple fact that FoW is free and people sometimes DO have the two mana. This is the "sleeper" of the set and will be $$ sometimes in the distant future
So, if you find yourself in the incredibly rare situation where your opponent has 1 self-sacrificing non-land permanent on the board, and sacrifices that permanent before O-Ring resolves (in either a terrible misplay, or in an attempt to make you o-ring one of your own permanents), you can then pay 2WU and (effectively) discard a card for a 2/2 flying creature with flash?
That sounds horrendous.
In a vast majority of eternal applications, Spell Pierce will do the same things as this card without giving your opponent a clock (and still be more versatile, hitting planeswalkers and artifacts). Flusterstorm will be better in the applications Spell Pierce is not.
Esperblade won't play it.
RUG delver won't play it.
BUG doesn't need it.
Reanimator won't play it.
TES isn't touching it.
Show & Tell could possibly play it (mostly for the mirror & humility.dec)
Omni-Show won't play, pact is better
In modern you want to hit cranial plating, birthing pod, Karn, blood moon, thoughtseize, scapeshift and splinter twin. Pierce hits all of these, Swansong hits half. Of the half swansong even hits, pierce is usually just as good. I could see it possibly being better than pierce against Scapeshift. That's too narrow a choice for too little a percentage of the field.
Vintage Oath is about the only place I'd agree this card is solid.
Even in standard, there are better options.
I don't think I was quoting an impossible situation. And the scenario was no more than an example. I never said the creature had to be self sacrificing.
So three things about your response.
1. The Oring is already lost.
2. Your not discarding a card. Your casting a 1 mana spell for a 2/2 flyer.
3. This situation was for a specific deck at a specific time in standard. I feel the versatility represented here would Have worked well in a cawblade deck.
But since my oring idea was to specific for you how about this one.
You cast lingering soul's.
It's canceled.
You could Counter the counter and get 2 1/1s or counter your own spell and take the 2/2 flyer.
I'm saying the card gives you options. That's not a terrible thing.
I switched my 3x Flusterstorm MD for 3x Swan Song MD in my Legacy Spiral Tide.
This is the ONLY card that interest me in this set (yeah Thoughtseize too but it's a reprint so it dosen't count).
I said the same thing with Ooze when they were 8-10$.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
Maindeck alongside Hundred-handed One, to never worry about the swans. Then they try to remove HHO? No, it's another swan. The beautiful thing about this card is that allows you to bluff counterspelling with a single land untapped, something that in recent memory you could only do with Spell Pierce (and then, they just played around the 2 extra. This card cannot be played around.)
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
This may be the most undervalued card in the set, honestly. As prosistheplumber said it will find a home in legacy and very likely modern combo decks. The 2/2 is going to be completely ignored by decks like pod or twin or tron or storm if it ever finds its way again. Even some control/tempo decks could use it. It does however kinda negate swinging with an unsuited GoST which is somewhat problematic. I guess if nothing else you could always snag the bird away, for tremendous card disadvantage of course. I do think it is situationally better than any counter printed in years so folks are crazy if they think this won't see play.
Private Mod Note
():
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Let's not hyperbole lest you meant 19 years ago. Magic is almost an adult at 20.
There're so many counters better than this in years gone by. I'm hyperbol-ing too lol
Could you list them please?
Well allow me(feel free to hop on gatherer and follow along)...
First lets get rid of anything that costs more than 1 mana. That is a very relevant fact. Next lets look at how solid they are. The list narrows. So far we have, lets see: Annul, Red Elemental blast, Dispel, Envelop, Hydroblast, Intervene, Nix, Outwit, Spell Snare, Steel Sabotage, Stifle and Turn Aside. Lets ditch Hydro and Red Elemental blast, Steel Sabotage, Nix, Spell Snare(Very narrow but very good, no argument there), Stifle(not modern legal),Intervene(Not modern legal), Nix(great against free stuff but not much in modern is free).
Ok, that leaves Outwit, Envelop, Dispel, Annul and Turn Aside. They are 1 mana, rock solid but oh wait... Outwit only counters stuff that targets me, Envelop, only sorceries, Dispel...instants, Annul...Enchantments and Artifacts...Turn aside...creatures I control....hmmmmmmmm.
Honestly there was no hyperbole involved at all. Situationally each could be better than Swan Song. Great to have in the side board, but on their face they are all lacking. The 2/2 flying drawback is absolutely note worthy, but there are a good number of decks that could care less. Honestly the only counters in all of Magic that are head and shoulders above this are Daze and FOW. And even they have drawbacks.
So in a nutshell, I respectfully disagree.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I'll leave my two cents here. (Type 2 by the way). I loved the Bow/Song combo and I wanted to try it out but turned out not a MD thing, its rather slow and believe it or not, if you dont have an answer that Swan is quite troublesome, with the Bow/Combo you can always shot them down if you are not using the Bow for anything else, also there are decks playing Ratchet Bomb, with I dont approve as they are 2-for-1 you.
I've killed several people with Swans because they dont have an answer for it afterwards, sure, counter my counter but what then? I'll hit you with a 2/2 for 4 turns, when you get an answer for that token I'll have another threat waiting for you.
Are we playing the same legacy? The same legacy where like 90% of matches end by turn 3? A 2/2 flier is nothing compared to a well timed counterspell there.
I don't think you're playing the same legacy as everyone else
Not even close to 90% of matches end on turn 3, it's probably close to 10%.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
In a format where control decks are going to be azorius decks that plan on supreme verdict'ing on turn 4...who cares if you give your opponent a 2/2 flier but counter his thoughtseize?
I really hate hour much love everyone seems to go Negate. My entire magic career Negate had been a borderline unplayable card. And people like the difference between a 1cc and a 2cc is allt the difference in the world. And people will side This in against spell Pierce
My Trading Post
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=226506
No, we are definitely not playing the same Legacy. In my experience those games ending in the first three turns are the exception, and grindy games where a 2/2 flyer matters more common.
Basically games really only end on turn 3 when combo is involved, or sometimes when a Blood Moon is resolved. But neither deck is in the majority of "decks played", which tend to be much more creature-based like BUG, Stoneblade, or various dudes+Stifle/Daze/Wasteland (i.e. lots of Delver builds along with Fish and Slivers). Then you also have tribal semi-aggro/combo that is popular like Elves, Goblins, and Robots, along with grindy decks like Death+Taxes, Loam builds, and Pox builds.
And even when you have combo or Blood Moon in a match trying to go off in the first three turns there is a decent chance that the opponent disrupts it and pushes it to a long game. Pretty much the only games that are actually likely to end by turn 3 are the mirror matches between linear combo decks that don't really interact with each other. In those situations you often get a race to see who can goldfish first.
Long story short, there are plenty of games decided by small creatures grinding it out while counters, discard, and other disruption prevent the big haymakers that most people seem to think characterize Legacy.
Like a lame magic trick or something.
"BEHOLD MORTAL, AS I SUMMON THE MIGHT OF DIVINI-"
"oop, presto change-o! It's a duck now!"
"I...but...divine..."
"Nope"
"But it's a god!"
"No it's a duck. You have a duck now"
"*weeps silently*"
"quack quack!"
I laughed way to much at this, i'm going to put this in my sig.
but about the card, i think it see play in standard based on the gods.
In modern, as people said it protects you combo that turn, so you can just win.
As for the other formats i don't play them, so i am not sure.
Modern
UWR American Geist-Control RWU
Man, I wish I could play Thassa and have mana open for counterspells...wait, my counterspell is one CMC? They will get a 2/2 flyer but I will get a god a turn earlier? Yeah, sign me up...
So, if you find yourself in the incredibly rare situation where your opponent has 1 self-sacrificing non-land permanent on the board, and sacrifices that permanent before O-Ring resolves (in either a terrible misplay, or in an attempt to make you o-ring one of your own permanents), you can then pay 2WU and (effectively) discard a card for a 2/2 flying creature with flash?
That sounds horrendous.
In a vast majority of eternal applications, Spell Pierce will do the same things as this card without giving your opponent a clock (and still be more versatile, hitting planeswalkers and artifacts). Flusterstorm will be better in the applications Spell Pierce is not.
Esperblade won't play it.
RUG delver won't play it.
BUG doesn't need it.
Reanimator won't play it.
TES isn't touching it.
Show & Tell could possibly play it (mostly for the mirror & humility.dec)
Omni-Show won't play, pact is better
In modern you want to hit cranial plating, birthing pod, Karn, blood moon, thoughtseize, scapeshift and splinter twin. Pierce hits all of these, Swansong hits half. Of the half swansong even hits, pierce is usually just as good. I could see it possibly being better than pierce against Scapeshift. That's too narrow a choice for too little a percentage of the field.
Vintage Oath is about the only place I'd agree this card is solid.
Even in standard, there are better options.
Sales Thread
This will see all kinds of play in legacy. It's essentially a 1cc hard counter for combo decks that don't give two craps about a flying bear. Its better than spell pierce for the simple fact that FoW is free and people sometimes DO have the two mana. This is the "sleeper" of the set and will be $$ sometimes in the distant future
Edric | Skithiryx | Merieke | Talrand
--------------------------
Well except for pauper EDH
Garruk's Packleader | Inkfathom Witch | Gelectrode | Sigil Captain | Glider Barin | Sludge Strider | Paragon of the Ameshsa
It's likely only Vintage-playable because it turns on Oath of Druids and keeps people from FoWing/Thoughtseizeing/Spell Snareing/Green Sun's Zenith for Qasali Pridemageing/Dazeing/Stifleing/Nature's Claiming/etc. it, Swords to Plowsharesing/Diabolic Edicting/Far // Awaying(?--Merchant Scroll can find it) the guy you cheated out, or Ancestral Recalling/Brainstorming in response.
I don't think I was quoting an impossible situation. And the scenario was no more than an example. I never said the creature had to be self sacrificing.
So three things about your response.
1. The Oring is already lost.
2. Your not discarding a card. Your casting a 1 mana spell for a 2/2 flyer.
3. This situation was for a specific deck at a specific time in standard. I feel the versatility represented here would Have worked well in a cawblade deck.
But since my oring idea was to specific for you how about this one.
You cast lingering soul's.
It's canceled.
You could Counter the counter and get 2 1/1s or counter your own spell and take the 2/2 flyer.
I'm saying the card gives you options. That's not a terrible thing.
My Trading Post
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=226506
This is the ONLY card that interest me in this set (yeah Thoughtseize too but it's a reprint so it dosen't count).
I said the same thing with Ooze when they were 8-10$.
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Let's not hyperbole lest you meant 19 years ago. Magic is almost an adult at 20.
There're so many counters better than this in years gone by. I'm hyperbol-ing too lol
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Could you list them please?
Well allow me(feel free to hop on gatherer and follow along)...
First lets get rid of anything that costs more than 1 mana. That is a very relevant fact. Next lets look at how solid they are. The list narrows. So far we have, lets see: Annul, Red Elemental blast, Dispel, Envelop, Hydroblast, Intervene, Nix, Outwit, Spell Snare, Steel Sabotage, Stifle and Turn Aside. Lets ditch Hydro and Red Elemental blast, Steel Sabotage, Nix, Spell Snare(Very narrow but very good, no argument there), Stifle(not modern legal),Intervene(Not modern legal), Nix(great against free stuff but not much in modern is free).
Ok, that leaves Outwit, Envelop, Dispel, Annul and Turn Aside. They are 1 mana, rock solid but oh wait... Outwit only counters stuff that targets me, Envelop, only sorceries, Dispel...instants, Annul...Enchantments and Artifacts...Turn aside...creatures I control....hmmmmmmmm.
Honestly there was no hyperbole involved at all. Situationally each could be better than Swan Song. Great to have in the side board, but on their face they are all lacking. The 2/2 flying drawback is absolutely note worthy, but there are a good number of decks that could care less. Honestly the only counters in all of Magic that are head and shoulders above this are Daze and FOW. And even they have drawbacks.
So in a nutshell, I respectfully disagree.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I've killed several people with Swans because they dont have an answer for it afterwards, sure, counter my counter but what then? I'll hit you with a 2/2 for 4 turns, when you get an answer for that token I'll have another threat waiting for you.
TL;DR Good card, if your deck is built around it.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands