So we got a new set and some new and interesting toys to play with. The "gods" seem to be the most obscenely over priced on ebay so I think I'll start there.
My opening question is plainly, why are the costing so much? I get that they are new and pretty cool. The art is fantastic and idea is entirely unique. My problem is their in game application. I mean they are awesome in a vacuum, no argument there. And if they are good enough as an enchantment alone, then hey, cool. But if you think you can depend on these being creatures, well that seems to be a bridge too far in my opinion.
Purphoros for example, (currently going for $20 plus a piece on ebay), has a reason able place as an enchantment. However, I'd argue that on turn four, when he'll almost always hit that enchantment is gonna be nearly useless because you will have played out much of your hand by the time he hits. And mono red isn't gonna draw you much more for cards either. And even you are able to reach his devotion, that means you have a handful of creatures untouched on the board anyway which likely means, if he is in creature form, you are likely winning already (read win more here).
Anybody else feeling this way? And I mean all the Gods are this way. Kinda like they're never what you need them to be when you need them.
Also one rules question: If I have devotion for a god and turn him sideways, what happens if my opponent kills one of my other guys and reduces my devotion? Does my god revert to enchantment form before or after dealing damage?
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
So we got a new set and some new and interesting toys to play with. The "gods" seem to be the most obscenely over priced on ebay so I think I'll start there.
My opening question is plainly, why are the costing so much? I get that they are new and pretty cool. The art is fantastic and idea is entirely unique. My problem is their in game application. I mean they are awesome in a vacuum, no argument there. And if they are good enough as an enchantment alone, then hey, cool. But if you think you can depend on these being creatures, well that seems to be a bridge too far in my opinion.
Who knows. I don't claim to understand the economics of Magic: The Gathering or the psychology of Magic players.
I suggest, however, that a lot of irrationality accounts for phenomenon regarding both areas of potential study.
Also one rules question: If I have devotion for a god and turn him sideways, what happens if my opponent kills one of my other guys and reduces my devotion? Does my god revert to enchantment form before or after dealing damage?
Clearly, for starters, it will cease to be a creature.
The implications of this are, if at any juncture a God ceases to be a creature, as in this scenario, it will be removed from combat for that instance of combat. If it becomes a creature again, it will still not deal or be dealt damage.
The gods are expensive because they look good and are being pushed hard by card shops like SCG.
IIrc, someone on DtR posting up the post-rotation RDW lists written by SCG pros from their premium content and every one of them had 4 Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Now, even if you think Purphoros is playable in Standard Constructed (I don't), and even if you think it fits in RDW (I don't), does anyone think it needs to be a 4-of?
Yes. The people preselling them for $30/each.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I've playtested with them some, and I think they are vastly overrated overall. That's not to say there aren't some good decks for them, but they are usually win-more cards because by the time you have that much devotion you're probably winning anyway.
Though I am going to side in Erebos, God of the Dead against decks that depend on lifegain and vs. some control matchups (like Sphinx's decks).
The white god is sort of like a planeswalker with his ability to poop out tokens. Could be good for a control deck with white.
I think the red god might be a one-of in a deck running a ton of red-red and red-red-red creatures.
I could see the blue god as a one-of for a control deck. Maybe.
The green god looks decent in a mono-green aggro deck.
Personally, I wouldn't want to run any of them as 4-of or 3-of. Probably not even 2-of.
They'll probably become better as the Theros block expands. Right now with the smallest standard pool possible, really utilizing them to their maximum potential probably means your deck sacrificing elsewhere. Mono Red exception because those decks just work without the red god, he just forces the damage out faster (still might be slow, higher end of a mono red curve). That Mogis minotaur frankly seems better for mono red than the god.
They just seem so slow, and as enchantments they're cheaper to interact with in this block than most.
Pretty much this. If you have a lot of board presence before he comes out, you get a 6/5 indestructible that can pump everything. If you have no board presence (or you get wiped) before he comes out, he starts hitting your opponents for 2 to the face every time you cast another creature. He's great no matter when you play him, but he's still a 4 CMC legend. Standard playable? Hecks yeah. Automatic four of? I don't think that's wise.
They'll probably become better as the Theros block expands. Right now with the smallest standard pool possible, really utilizing them to their maximum potential probably means your deck sacrificing elsewhere. Mono Red exception because those decks just work without the red god, he just forces the damage out faster (still might be slow, higher end of a mono red curve). That Mogis minotaur frankly seems better for mono red than the god.
They just seem so slow, and as enchantments they're cheaper to interact with in this block than most.
Because they are hyped cards. Some people will want then for collection, for Cubes or for fun. And there's also the people who have so-so evaluation skills but read a lot of thrash articles.
Also I think mtg before set release have a strange price signal effect. Some people can't evaluate cards properly or don't play test those cards with proxies/cockatrice, so they take prices as signal of quality (much like someone buying wine w/o the proper knowledge). In that case the seller, knowing his product doesn't worth that much but knowing other people's ignorance, just put a high price and expect some of then demand will bite the bate. If they putted a low price tag in those mythics many people would think "they are cheap, so they might not be good" and simply not buy then.
Alot of people are ok paying a premium to get mythic play sets before everyone else. Preselling mythics also costs a lot because you need to keep opening boxes until you fill your orders.
You can't really expect card prices to be reasonable when: (a) it's prerelease time or (b) SCG is involved.
Presale prices these days are highly dictated by the prices SCG set, which are stupidly inflated.
Case in point: I've seen Nightveil Spectre on various sites for .50 cents-$1. SCG sells em for $2. Yep. That's one hell of an increase (Being serious here).
I would expect that only the red god will make any Top 8s in the coming season, and maybe only a 1-of.
The only card from this set that will see play without question is Thoughtseize. Everything else is a toss-up as there are no "pre-built" decks in Theros. Likely most players will use RtR block stuff with the occasional Theros card.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
The gods are expensive because they look good and are being pushed hard by card shops like SCG.
IIrc, someone on DtR posting up the post-rotation RDW lists written by SCG pros from their premium content and every one of them had 4 Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Now, even if you think Purphoros is playable in Standard Constructed (I don't), and even if you think it fits in RDW (I don't), does anyone think it needs to be a 4-of?
Yes. The people preselling them for $30/each.
While I agree that a 3-of is probably the right number, but what makes you think he isn't playable in Standard or fit in RDW? You're going to be playing cards that have heavy red cost making him an efficient creature, but still is doming people in a deck that is pretty creature oriented he isn't. He is also a mana sink for extra damage to boot.
I would expect that only the red god will make any Top 8s in the coming season, and maybe only a 1-of.
The only card from this set that will see play without question is Thoughtseize. Everything else is a toss-up as there are no "pre-built" decks in Theros. Likely most players will use RtR block stuff with the occasional Theros card.
I would expect that only the red god will make any Top 8s in the coming season, and maybe only a 1-of.
The only card from this set that will see play without question is Thoughtseize. Everything else is a toss-up as there are no "pre-built" decks in Theros. Likely most players will use RtR block stuff with the occasional Theros card.
Players like you are the ones that get surprised when someone brews a deck that goes to become dominant. "pre-built" decks are, more often than not, of mediocre to decent quality as they have been playtested to death by the developers. A dominant deck uses tiny synergies between different cards of all the sets in the format to find a mix of elements that might have escaped Wizards's strict power-level control.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
That's why the gods are that high. The hype of them before actual playtesting occurs jacks up the prices. They drop when supply is higher and demand drops.
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"Ask the right questions in the right way and truth is inevitable."
—Lazav
I'm not sure if Phosphorus will see play. Doesn't seem to have a home for him. Helium might see play for the very fact it makes kids. PoThassaium will fool many just because she's the cheapest. Erebos keeps MBC players dreaming.
People are judging the Gods too harshly on their effects, and not enough on the lack of removal for them. This factor alone should have them seeing play.
While I agree that a 3-of is probably the right number, but what makes you think he isn't playable in Standard or fit in RDW? You're going to be playing cards that have heavy red cost making him an efficient creature, but still is doming people in a deck that is pretty creature oriented he isn't. He is also a mana sink for extra damage to boot.
I don't think any of the gods are playable in Standard, but I'll focus on Purphoros.
The last thing I want is to be forced to over-extend my board in order to avoid having my 6/5 Indestructable creature (with no evasion btw) turned back into a non-creature enchantment mid combat. In addition to Purphoros being a lot more fragile as a creature in practice than its stats would imply, RDW tops its curve at 4 or maybe 5 mana which means that by the time you can capitalize on Purphoros's static ability you've already pretty much emptied your hand. That leaves the vast amount of Purphoros's burden to prove itself playable in RDW squarely on the shoulders of its activated ability - and while +1/+0 to everything is nice, is a mana sink, and does play well with Aggro creatures, it's not even close to worth 3R and a card (that will otherwise likely have little-to-no impact) to unlock + 2R to activate.
I'd just play Fanatic. When you have 5+ devotion it's a worse creature, but it does a lot of damage the turn it ETB. When you have less than 5 devotion, it doesn't do much when it comes into play but it is, at least, a body and can end the game by itself.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I imagine there is some pretty strong decks you can make around the blue god.
Scry every single turn, and then combo in some heavy hitters with unblockable or creatures with effects on combat damage.
While the red god is super strong, he should only be played in a mid-game deck.
Because we've got people just itching to prove that they know the game so well that they can call what will work and what won't work
We have people who say that none of the Gods are playable in T2: laughable but possible and then we've got others who claim that some of the Gods are auto 4-ofs
This leads to wild speculation and preorder prices are always very high
I guess my real question is why do so many have so much trouble with the calculus? Four mana (Thassa excluded of course) for something that is so situational should be a tough sell. Are people just looking at them like look what it could be rather than look what it is likely to be? Honestly Thassa is the only one I could see being feasible in modern and that is only in the Merfolk archetype. Beyond that they're limited all stars and standard 2 ofs...
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
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My opening question is plainly, why are the costing so much? I get that they are new and pretty cool. The art is fantastic and idea is entirely unique. My problem is their in game application. I mean they are awesome in a vacuum, no argument there. And if they are good enough as an enchantment alone, then hey, cool. But if you think you can depend on these being creatures, well that seems to be a bridge too far in my opinion.
Purphoros for example, (currently going for $20 plus a piece on ebay), has a reason able place as an enchantment. However, I'd argue that on turn four, when he'll almost always hit that enchantment is gonna be nearly useless because you will have played out much of your hand by the time he hits. And mono red isn't gonna draw you much more for cards either. And even you are able to reach his devotion, that means you have a handful of creatures untouched on the board anyway which likely means, if he is in creature form, you are likely winning already (read win more here).
Anybody else feeling this way? And I mean all the Gods are this way. Kinda like they're never what you need them to be when you need them.
Also one rules question: If I have devotion for a god and turn him sideways, what happens if my opponent kills one of my other guys and reduces my devotion? Does my god revert to enchantment form before or after dealing damage?
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I suggest, however, that a lot of irrationality accounts for phenomenon regarding both areas of potential study.
Clearly, for starters, it will cease to be a creature.
The implications of this are, if at any juncture a God ceases to be a creature, as in this scenario, it will be removed from combat for that instance of combat. If it becomes a creature again, it will still not deal or be dealt damage.
IIrc, someone on DtR posting up the post-rotation RDW lists written by SCG pros from their premium content and every one of them had 4 Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Now, even if you think Purphoros is playable in Standard Constructed (I don't), and even if you think it fits in RDW (I don't), does anyone think it needs to be a 4-of?
Yes. The people preselling them for $30/each.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Though I am going to side in Erebos, God of the Dead against decks that depend on lifegain and vs. some control matchups (like Sphinx's decks).
The white god is sort of like a planeswalker with his ability to poop out tokens. Could be good for a control deck with white.
I think the red god might be a one-of in a deck running a ton of red-red and red-red-red creatures.
I could see the blue god as a one-of for a control deck. Maybe.
The green god looks decent in a mono-green aggro deck.
Personally, I wouldn't want to run any of them as 4-of or 3-of. Probably not even 2-of.
That said, I think that the gods are more reasonably priced than the planeswalkers.
Presale prices these days are highly dictated by the prices SCG set, which are stupidly inflated.
They just seem so slow, and as enchantments they're cheaper to interact with in this block than most.
UW Control (:symu: :symw:)
Pretty much this. If you have a lot of board presence before he comes out, you get a 6/5 indestructible that can pump everything. If you have no board presence (or you get wiped) before he comes out, he starts hitting your opponents for 2 to the face every time you cast another creature. He's great no matter when you play him, but he's still a 4 CMC legend. Standard playable? Hecks yeah. Automatic four of? I don't think that's wise.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
I agree.
Also I think mtg before set release have a strange price signal effect. Some people can't evaluate cards properly or don't play test those cards with proxies/cockatrice, so they take prices as signal of quality (much like someone buying wine w/o the proper knowledge). In that case the seller, knowing his product doesn't worth that much but knowing other people's ignorance, just put a high price and expect some of then demand will bite the bate. If they putted a low price tag in those mythics many people would think "they are cheap, so they might not be good" and simply not buy then.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Case in point: I've seen Nightveil Spectre on various sites for .50 cents-$1. SCG sells em for $2. Yep. That's one hell of an increase (Being serious here).
The only card from this set that will see play without question is Thoughtseize. Everything else is a toss-up as there are no "pre-built" decks in Theros. Likely most players will use RtR block stuff with the occasional Theros card.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
While I agree that a 3-of is probably the right number, but what makes you think he isn't playable in Standard or fit in RDW? You're going to be playing cards that have heavy red cost making him an efficient creature, but still is doming people in a deck that is pretty creature oriented he isn't. He is also a mana sink for extra damage to boot.
Have you even read some of the cards?
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
Players like you are the ones that get surprised when someone brews a deck that goes to become dominant. "pre-built" decks are, more often than not, of mediocre to decent quality as they have been playtested to death by the developers. A dominant deck uses tiny synergies between different cards of all the sets in the format to find a mix of elements that might have escaped Wizards's strict power-level control.
That's why the gods are that high. The hype of them before actual playtesting occurs jacks up the prices. They drop when supply is higher and demand drops.
—Lazav
_______________________________________________
Mafia Stats
Summary:
Total Win %: 40%
Total Scum Win %: 60%
Total Town Win %: 20%
Total Neutral Win %: 0%
You think the lands are the reason? It's not that they're big shiny mythics with god in their subtype is it?
UW Control (:symu: :symw:)
Nylon is underrated.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I don't think any of the gods are playable in Standard, but I'll focus on Purphoros.
The last thing I want is to be forced to over-extend my board in order to avoid having my 6/5 Indestructable creature (with no evasion btw) turned back into a non-creature enchantment mid combat. In addition to Purphoros being a lot more fragile as a creature in practice than its stats would imply, RDW tops its curve at 4 or maybe 5 mana which means that by the time you can capitalize on Purphoros's static ability you've already pretty much emptied your hand. That leaves the vast amount of Purphoros's burden to prove itself playable in RDW squarely on the shoulders of its activated ability - and while +1/+0 to everything is nice, is a mana sink, and does play well with Aggro creatures, it's not even close to worth 3R and a card (that will otherwise likely have little-to-no impact) to unlock + 2R to activate.
I'd just play Fanatic. When you have 5+ devotion it's a worse creature, but it does a lot of damage the turn it ETB. When you have less than 5 devotion, it doesn't do much when it comes into play but it is, at least, a body and can end the game by itself.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Scry every single turn, and then combo in some heavy hitters with unblockable or creatures with effects on combat damage.
While the red god is super strong, he should only be played in a mid-game deck.
We have people who say that none of the Gods are playable in T2: laughable but possible and then we've got others who claim that some of the Gods are auto 4-ofs
This leads to wild speculation and preorder prices are always very high
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.