Will Theros be Kamigawa 2?

  • #207
    Quote from Alpha Fang
    And I'll say this again again, Even with less then half the cards spoiled, there are still more then half of the spoiled cards that are playable in one format or another! Sure, it might not be 100% playable in modern/legacy, but there are more formats then modern and legacy.


    I know that it is unreasonable to expect many modern playable cards, but I am just disappointed as a modern player that this set has so few modern playable cards. This is the first set designed with modern in mind, but there aren't many modern playable cards in here. The scry lands could have been worth it if they were given basic land types, but they weren't. I was hoping for some cards for a modern enchantress deck, but none have been shown so far. I was hoping for a good scry cantrip, but we haven't seen anything yet. Bestow and monstrosity cost too much for modern, heroic is weak, we haven't seen any good scry cards, and modern is too multicolor focused to use devotion. We really haven't seen any good instants, sorceries, artifacts, auras, or normal enchantments (normal meaning global enchantments without creature or artifact tacked on). All we've seen is a bunch of undercosted, insanely efficient creatures, and modern needs less of those, not more.

    Ehrmagersh, a new deck is doing well. Breakz out de banhammerz!


    New World Order is a limit on the complexity of commons. It has nothing to do with power-level.

    Modern is not less diverse than Legacy. It has more aggro and ramp, the same amount of combo and midrange, and less control and tempo. It has almost has many viable decks. People who claim that Modern isn't diverse without even playing the format are just as bad as the people who say that Legacy is a turn 1 kill format.

    Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.

    Quote from Valanarch
    Has anyone considered Eyeblight's Ending as a 1 or 2 of in the deck? Just curious because it boosts Goyf another point and it's pretty rare that an Elf is the creature you need to deal with in Modern.


    The problem is that it isn't as good as the other options for 3 mana removal (Maelstrom Pulse, Dismember, Hero's Downfall, and Putrefy). And Putrefy isn't even played.


    I swear you're omnipresent sometimes Valanarch...

  • #208
    @ ultratog1028: Don't look at me, I've been DEFENDING these cards...

    @ thetrueshyguy: Not EVERY hybrid mana land is used in commander decks, in fact most of them are ignored for other, more powerful duel land cards. These are scry land cards. I kind of wish they were scry too yes, but at the same time that doesn't mean they are "worthless".

    @ Nim: I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that way. I don't mind the removal of Mana-burn, but combat damage step was something I rather miss... Being a control player, or that "anti-aggro" player, removing a step of combat I could use an ability, kinda sucked... Expecially with Aggro players as well, there have been times I wish there was "If only I could cast this after block step but before damage". Mana Burn was a little complex, but if you like it, just make a local format called "Unstable Magic"? Mana Burn doesn't have to be removed from your local games simply because they say no more mana burn.... of course, these would only be local casual games...
    I am the Outcast and the Loner of this world,
    I don't need the strength of others to survive,
    I only need to rely upon myself to stay alive...

    The trust you have in others, is not a strength,
    The trust you have is a liability and a weakness,
    While others will fail you, you will never fail yourself...

    While the Pack might be stronger than the Loner,
    The Loner is still stronger then anyone in the Pack,
    The only strength you can rely upon is your own...
  • #209
    A lot of people seem to be saying that these should at least have basic land types to make them rare. Tell me, how many cards will care about land types in post Theros Standard? 14. How many are playable in standard? Liliana of the Dark Realms and Corrupt are the only possible ones, and those aren't likely.

    Dual land types would grant these nothing for standard.

    These lands aren't bad. You are just comparing them to current standard. Give them a year till when RTR rotates and you'll see these lands are pretty good. Y'all just spoiled atm.

    On Modern Masters 2:
    Quote from Serafiend
    just remember wotc, be sure to keep that print run in check. we don't wanna upset players of mtg: the stock market, after all.

    My Ban Senses are tingling about Bloodbraid Elf in Modern. Just Saying. You heard it here first. 10/18/2012.
    ^ Will be kept until 12/31/2013 to prove if Right or Wrong. Proven right 1/27/2013

  • #210
    For everyone complaining that most of the enchantment stuff so far revolves around creatures, the reason for this has already been stated. Its because red and black have no way of dealing with enchantments, making a fair amount of them revolve around creatures keeps those two colors from being shut out of interactivity.

    There Are Other Worlds Than These

    Bane's Reading Suggestions

    David Eddings: The Belgariad, Mallorean, Elenium and Tamuli Series. The Redemption of Althalus
    Jim Butcher: The Codex Alera Series
  • #211
    Quote from ultratog1028
    A lot of people seem to be saying that these should at least have basic land types to make them rare. Tell me, how many cards will care about land types in post Theros Standard? 14. How many are playable in standard? Liliana of the Dark Realms and Corrupt are the only possible ones, and those aren't likely.

    Dual land types would grant these nothing for standard.

    These lands aren't bad. You are just comparing them to current standard. Give them a year till when RTR rotates and you'll see these lands are pretty good. Y'all just spoiled atm.


    They don't need basic land types for Theros. That would change almost nothing at all. My point is that there is no reason not to put basic land types on them so they could be used in Modern with the fetchlands as additional shocklands. It would do nothing for Standard, but it would make them playable in Modern.

    Edit: It also would help out Chained to Rocks.
    Last edited by Valanarch: 9/6/2013 6:53:49 PM

    Ehrmagersh, a new deck is doing well. Breakz out de banhammerz!


    New World Order is a limit on the complexity of commons. It has nothing to do with power-level.

    Modern is not less diverse than Legacy. It has more aggro and ramp, the same amount of combo and midrange, and less control and tempo. It has almost has many viable decks. People who claim that Modern isn't diverse without even playing the format are just as bad as the people who say that Legacy is a turn 1 kill format.

    Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.

    Quote from Valanarch
    Has anyone considered Eyeblight's Ending as a 1 or 2 of in the deck? Just curious because it boosts Goyf another point and it's pretty rare that an Elf is the creature you need to deal with in Modern.


    The problem is that it isn't as good as the other options for 3 mana removal (Maelstrom Pulse, Dismember, Hero's Downfall, and Putrefy). And Putrefy isn't even played.


    I swear you're omnipresent sometimes Valanarch...

  • #213
    Well....it's better than Homelands or Fallen Empires.

    The Scry lands are fine, at Uncommon. The addition of Scry 1 doesn't make them rare vs guildgates, no matter how anyone tries to justify it. At Rare, they are completely underwhelming.

    Obviously there will be standard playable cards, it accounts for 20% of the sets for Standard, and one of those sets is Dragonmaze...so yah. Legacy/Modern will be hard pressed to find much other than the reprints. It seems pretty MEH overall for constructed competitive play, limited, it may be ok.
  • #214
    I loved Kamigawa... It had some of my favorite abilities in all of magic (Splice onto Arcane)...
    So you need a hand of 6 specific lands, and all I have to draw is a Doom Blade? Deal.

    Quote from ThyLordQ
    That entire post just made me think of a certain bit of flavor text.

    "You. Poet. Be sure to write this down."
  • #215
    Quote from Valarin
    No, it's not just you. So far the set is horrible and on track to be the worst MTG set ever printing in the history of the game, with the possible exceptions of Judgement and Planeshift.

    The cards are overcosted, weak, care more about top down design than actually being playable, and are targeting a demographic of players who see "99 extra creatures" and go "OMG THAT'S SO COOL!!"

    And when pressed about how terrible the cards are, the best defense we get is "wait for the rest of the set". They are literally saying this set is good because they are making up cards that don't exist and putting them in the set in thier head to make it good.

    It's a typical MaRo designed set. Zero originality in the design (everything we are seeing has all been done before), complete beat-you-over-the-head cliche's, top down design taking more importance than good cards (Another useless eyeball card? Really?) and even worse, the uncommons seem to be particularly terrible, which really bodes poorly for the set. Not that I'm going to play it, but limited is going to be TERRIBLY unbalanced. Just more evidence the man is simply terrible at his job.

    The spoilers would need to do a complete 180 from here on out to save the set, and sure, maybe it could happen, but I'm not holding my breath. And really, why should they, people are losing thier mind over terrible cards and calling this the best set ever, so WoTC has literally zero incentive to actually do any better, since the can just keep phoning in crappy sets and packs will fly off the shelves into the hands of people who think sacrificing lands for a 3/1 is "OMG AMAZING BROKEN!!" and the Pandoras Box card "slots right into Modern decks".

    On the upside, it will continue an era of very cheap MTG. I haven't bought a single M14 pack and never will, and the way it's going Theros is shaping up to be another set you couldn't pay me to get a booster of, so that's going to be what, a solid 6 or so months where I am spending literally $0 on Magic cards, which is nice after RtR block had so many staples to get. It will be the longest I have ever gone spending no money on cards.


    I'd like to think this post sums up everything people always say when a new set gets spoiled. To be honest, I genuinely feel sorry for Mark Rosewater - he does a decent job and all he gets is abuse from jealous, resentful people who wish they had his job cos they think they would do it better.

    Regarding flavor, if a card being flavorful doesn't make you like it, why are you playing Magic? Magic is a flavour-rich game with deep roots in fantasy lore. If you don't care how the cards are flavored provided the mechanics are the same, why not go play Yu-Gi-Oh!, or Kaijudo, or any number of other card games with reasonable mechanics but uninvolving and scattershot flavor.
    Not jace again? At the rate it is going people will start to get sick tired of him.
  • #216
    Quote from KrymsonHalo
    Well....it's better than Homelands or Fallen Empires.

    The Scry lands are fine, at Uncommon. The addition of Scry 1 doesn't make them rare vs guildgates, no matter how anyone tries to justify it. At Rare, they are completely underwhelming.


    There have only been two cycles of common actual duals. Ravnica Gates and Ravnica Bouncelands. Notice a trend? The guildgates were only common as a concession to the mana fixing needed within the block. They are an anomaly, a special case, and should not be used as the basis of judgement outside their blocks. If you wan to argue that Scry 1 is not better than 1 life and compare them to the Refuges, fine, but can we just leave the guildgates out of this?

    There Are Other Worlds Than These

    Bane's Reading Suggestions

    David Eddings: The Belgariad, Mallorean, Elenium and Tamuli Series. The Redemption of Althalus
    Jim Butcher: The Codex Alera Series
  • #217
    Quote from KrymsonHalo
    Well....it's better than Homelands or Fallen Empires.

    The Scry lands are fine, at Uncommon. The addition of Scry 1 doesn't make them rare vs guildgates, no matter how anyone tries to justify it. At Rare, they are completely underwhelming.

    Obviously there will be standard playable cards, it accounts for 20% of the sets for Standard, and one of those sets is Dragonmaze...so yah. Legacy/Modern will be hard pressed to find much other than the reprints. It seems pretty MEH overall for constructed competitive play, limited, it may be ok.


    With the level of hate they are all getting their price will be negligible anyway... making them rare was simply to even out limited while they will likely have a large print % so I don't see why it is such a big deal that they printed it with a gold corner, if you dont like the set dont buy it just grab the singles you need.


    If they were uncommon then limited would be far to strong.
    So you need a hand of 6 specific lands, and all I have to draw is a Doom Blade? Deal.

    Quote from ThyLordQ
    That entire post just made me think of a certain bit of flavor text.

    "You. Poet. Be sure to write this down."
  • #219
    Quote from CygsTheBant
    With the level of hate they are all getting their price will be negligible anyway... making them rare was simply to even out limited while they will likely have a large print % so I don't see why it is such a big deal that they printed it with a gold corner, if you dont like the set dont buy it just grab the singles you need.


    If they were uncommon then limited would be far to strong.


    I don't play limited, so can somebody please explain to me how making these uncommons would make limited too strong? Also, can somebody please explain to me why Wizards would put cards like these at rare? It just makes me not want to buy any Theros booster packs.

    Ehrmagersh, a new deck is doing well. Breakz out de banhammerz!


    New World Order is a limit on the complexity of commons. It has nothing to do with power-level.

    Modern is not less diverse than Legacy. It has more aggro and ramp, the same amount of combo and midrange, and less control and tempo. It has almost has many viable decks. People who claim that Modern isn't diverse without even playing the format are just as bad as the people who say that Legacy is a turn 1 kill format.

    Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.

    Quote from Valanarch
    Has anyone considered Eyeblight's Ending as a 1 or 2 of in the deck? Just curious because it boosts Goyf another point and it's pretty rare that an Elf is the creature you need to deal with in Modern.


    The problem is that it isn't as good as the other options for 3 mana removal (Maelstrom Pulse, Dismember, Hero's Downfall, and Putrefy). And Putrefy isn't even played.


    I swear you're omnipresent sometimes Valanarch...

  • #220
    I wonder, is there ever a new set without a thread like this?

    If designers aim too high on power (Thragtusk, Jace), some people will complain about high power level. If they aim "too low," some people will complain about low power level.

    2-color duals are typically rare. RTR was a gold block, so it weirdly had (bad) common duals.

    Considering the devotion mechanic, Theros could almost be considered a mono-colored-block!

    You could make an argument that it shouldn't even have duals, but considering it has a small subset of gold cards, 5 dual lands makes sense.

    Regardless, I feel bad for even feeding this thread another post. No real arguments being made here, just emotional responses, and the set isn't even half revealed yet.
    On MTGO as Protoman.
    On 7/14/10, broke 1900 mark! <3 ROE.
  • #221
    Quote from Valanarch
    I don't play limited, so can somebody please explain to me how making these uncommons would make limited too strong? Also, can somebody please explain to me why Wizards would put cards like these at rare? It just makes me not want to buy any Theros booster packs.


    I don't think they're so much stronger than the guildgates that they would ruin limited at uncommon, unless a free Scry 1 is just blow-your-mind amazing at that rarity (which it isn't).
    I don't have a fancy color affiliation banner, I just like playing with white weenies.

    I am hereby petitioning Wizards for inclusion of the "beaver" creature type. Sig this to join the cause!
  • #222
    Quote from Valanarch
    I don't play limited, so can somebody please explain to me how making these uncommons would make limited too strong? Also, can somebody please explain to me why Wizards would put cards like these at rare? It just makes me not want to buy any Theros booster packs.


    The theory is that people would use them to scry scry scry for their bombs. It makes limited a "find your bomb and win" event. However, that is how most of limited ends up anyway...so it just makes it a slower journey to get there.

    At rare, it's worse in my opinion, because it denies you one of those bomb...for a glorified guildgate.
  • #223
    Quote from Valanarch
    I don't play limited, so can somebody please explain to me how making these uncommons would make limited too strong? Also, can somebody please explain to me why Wizards would put cards like these at rare? It just makes me not want to buy any Theros booster packs.


    Its not the lands alone, the makers of magic likely found in testing that a deck was possible and strong where all you do is grab scry cards including the lands and have one hard bomb and just scry out your bomb consistantly and win with it

    Having a bomb is strong in limited, it is alot harder to deal with a t2 fleecemane before they get it monstrous then it is in constructed, My guess is the problem likely arose in sealed where you had 6 packs and 6 chances to get a super bomb and then the rest of your pool is used to play every scry card you can to find this bomb.

    The makers have spent months making a set so its balanced in all formats; though some people seem to like to pretend R&D just thinks of cards and spoils them the next day with no though a lot of testing does go in.
    Last edited by CygsTheBant: 9/6/2013 8:03:48 PM
    So you need a hand of 6 specific lands, and all I have to draw is a Doom Blade? Deal.

    Quote from ThyLordQ
    That entire post just made me think of a certain bit of flavor text.

    "You. Poet. Be sure to write this down."
  • #224
    Quote from CygsTheBant
    Its not the lands alone, the makers of magic likely found in testing that a deck was possible and strong where all you do is grab scry cards including the lands and have one hard bomb and just scry out your bomb consistantly and win with it

    Having a bomb is strong in limited, it is alot harder to deal with a t2 fleecemane before they get it monstrous then it is in constructed, My guess is the problem likely arose in sealed where you had 6 packs and 6 chances to get a super bomb and then the rest of your pool is used to play every scry card you can to find this bomb.

    The makers have spent months making a set so it balanced in all formats; though some people seem to like to pretend R&D just think of cards and spoil them the next day with no though a lot of testing does go in.


    I agree. At uncommon, you could get multiples in sealed that would allow you to find a bomb such as a god card that is indestructible. Even if you didn't need the color, the scry would help. That may also explain why the cards are scry 1 as oppose to scry 2.

    Personally, I don't like the lands at rare, but then I can see making them rare for limited.

    And, as for opening packs, the mythics look much better than the rares, so I will probably limit myself to opening packs for draft and just buying singles.
  • #225
    Quote from Valarin
    No, it's not just you. So far the set is horrible and on track to be the worst MTG set ever printing in the history of the game, with the possible exceptions of Judgement and Planeshift.

    The cards are overcosted, weak, care more about top down design than actually being playable, and are targeting a demographic of players who see "99 extra creatures" and go "OMG THAT'S SO COOL!!"

    And when pressed about how terrible the cards are, the best defense we get is "wait for the rest of the set". They are literally saying this set is good because they are making up cards that don't exist and putting them in the set in thier head to make it good.

    It's a typical MaRo designed set. Zero originality in the design (everything we are seeing has all been done before), complete beat-you-over-the-head cliche's, top down design taking more importance than good cards (Another useless eyeball card? Really?) and even worse, the uncommons seem to be particularly terrible, which really bodes poorly for the set. Not that I'm going to play it, but limited is going to be TERRIBLY unbalanced. Just more evidence the man is simply terrible at his job.

    The spoilers would need to do a complete 180 from here on out to save the set, and sure, maybe it could happen, but I'm not holding my breath. And really, why should they, people are losing thier mind over terrible cards and calling this the best set ever, so WoTC has literally zero incentive to actually do any better, since the can just keep phoning in crappy sets and packs will fly off the shelves into the hands of people who think sacrificing lands for a 3/1 is "OMG AMAZING BROKEN!!" and the Pandoras Box card "slots right into Modern decks".

    On the upside, it will continue an era of very cheap MTG. I haven't bought a single M14 pack and never will, and the way it's going Theros is shaping up to be another set you couldn't pay me to get a booster of, so that's going to be what, a solid 6 or so months where I am spending literally $0 on Magic cards, which is nice after RtR block had so many staples to get. It will be the longest I have ever gone spending no money on cards.


    I look forward to reading your posts after a long day, because i usually need a good laugh. Thank you.
    ~
    Nothing but the rain...
  • #226
    Diggin the set so far. The scry lands are the only thing I'm disappointed with but that's mostly due to their rarity.

    Also, holy **** Valarin I cannot recall a single instance on these boards where you weren't complaining about some aspect of this game. For the love of Zeus, just quit already.
    Currently Playing ~ RWG Naya Control GWR


    Disclaimer: Unless I state otherwise, I'm referring to standard.
  • #228
    You'd think a guy could at least get a private message when two of his posts just up and disappear, sheesh.
    I don't have a fancy color affiliation banner, I just like playing with white weenies.

    I am hereby petitioning Wizards for inclusion of the "beaver" creature type. Sig this to join the cause!
  • #229
    Quote from Valanarch
    I don't play limited, so can somebody please explain to me how making these uncommons would make limited too strong? Also, can somebody please explain to me why Wizards would put cards like these at rare? It just makes me not want to buy any Theros booster packs.


    I don't get the argument that there being good dual lands at Rare makes you not want to buy packs. You do realize that a cycle of 5 dual lands is almost guaranteed to have an over all better value than any random 5 Rares? Dual lands, no matter how bad people think they are (and they're usually wrong), are typically amongst the best value Rares in the set. I doubt these will be any different.

    Also, as mentioned in the development article and multiple times in multiple threads, they are Rare because as Uncommons they increased the over all number of playable of scry cards highly, and an over abundance of scry made Theros' Limited format more oriented around using scry to find your bomb than playing any of the Limited archetypes. Scry was added to encourage the Enchantment/Aura theme, not so a player could stall out behind scry effects until they drew a card their opponents would not be able to meaningfully answer.
    Deadmau5 on MTGO.

    Quote from Caedere
    I'm going to say it. I gotta say it.

    These are the best duals since the fetchlands.

    Possibly better, but only time will tell with that.
  • #230
    Quote from CygsTheBant
    Its not the lands alone, the makers of magic likely found in testing that a deck was possible and strong where all you do is grab scry cards including the lands and have one hard bomb and just scry out your bomb consistantly and win with it

    I seriously doubt it. In an average draft you'd expect to open about 1 of each uncommon. 5ish of these in a draft wouldn't break limited. Picking and playing an off-color scry-land sounds actively bad.
  • #231
    @VALARIN:

    Wasnt m14 the worst set ever printed already? How can now Theros suddenly be the worst? and wanna bet that in 3 month born of gods will be the worst set ever?

    you really make a clown out of yourself.
  • #232
    Quote from beren camlost
    I wonder, is there ever a new set without a thread like this?

    If designers aim too high on power (Thragtusk, Jace), some people will complain about high power level. If they aim "too low," some people will complain about low power level.

    2-color duals are typically rare. RTR was a gold block, so it weirdly had (bad) common duals.

    Considering the devotion mechanic, Theros could almost be considered a mono-colored-block!

    You could make an argument that it shouldn't even have duals, but considering it has a small subset of gold cards, 5 dual lands makes sense.

    Regardless, I feel bad for even feeding this thread another post. No real arguments being made here, just emotional responses, and the set isn't even half revealed yet.


    This is exactly the same as how i feel about it. Though Id like to add that Id rather would have a monocolored scry lands cycle at uncommon than anything else.
    With the amount duals that will be available in standard I think you will still have a lot of 3color decks and that devotion or monocolored decks will be almost non existant.
    Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
    -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  • #233
    The real question is, will OP survive the fact this set likely won't be everything he demands from it?
  • #234
    Quote from Yebisu
    Howdie

    /.../

    Is there anyone who has the same thoughts? Or maybe I'm just being power hungry when it comes to mtg cards?
    Yes you are. Move along.
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