Slivers: Old Vs New

  • #1
    Here we will be analyzing the new slivers with a cheer or a jeers depending on how they fair to their predecessors in terms of being better or worse.

    This thread will be bumped and updated every time a new sliver from M14 is released.

    For those of you curious as to why 1/1 and 2/2 slivers are better for a cheaper price consider slivers like Sinew Sliver effiectively a 2/2, Muscle Sliver effectively a 2/2, and Might Sliver who is effectively a 4/4. They all act in buffing the group of slivers in their P/T in anthem-like effects.



    Sentinel Sliver 1W (C)
    Creature - Sliver
    Sliver creatures you control have vigilance.
    2/2

    VS.

    Synchronized Sliver 4U
    Creature - Sliver (C)
    All slivers have vigilance.
    3/3

    Verdict: Sentinel Sliver Wins.
    Their really is no contest here, Sentinel is a cheap 2/2 bear with vigilance that still maintains being splashable and being in the correct color of white. Because for +3 colorless mana and a shift in colors it really only amounts to a +1/+1 P/T and affecting all.


    Plated Sliver/Watcher Sliver/Armor Sliver/Sinew Sliver

    VS.

    Steelform Sliver 2W
    Creature - Sliver (U)
    Slivers you control get +0/+1.
    2/2

    Verdict: Steelform Sliver Loses.
    It wants to be like its predecessors but its only better than Armor Sliver in the short-term and thats only if the sliver deck using Armor Sliver is not running infinite mana. That and Armor Sliver is the only uncommon sliver in this matchup.

    For -2cc you get Plated Sliver who is a 1/1 who buffs all slivers by +0/+1, and is a common.
    For -1cc you get Sinew Sliver who is a 1/1 who buffs all slivers by +1/+1, and is a common.
    For +1cc you get Watcher Sliver who is also a 2/2 but grants all slivers a +0/+2 benefit, and is a common.


    Barbed Sliver/Blade Sliver/Bonesplitter Sliver

    VS.

    Battle Sliver 4R
    Creature - Sliver (U)
    Sliver creatures you control get +2/+0.
    3/3

    Verdict: Battle Sliver Loses.
    First off it is just far too expensive compared to its predecessors and in fact you get this for prices cheaper than 5cc.

    For -2cc you get Barbed Sliver who is a 2/2 that functions similarly to Armor Sliver but works instead on power rather than toughness. If you got lots of mana to spend this is better choice compared to Battle. Its also an uncommon.

    For also -2cc you get Blade Sliver who is a 2/2 who straight up gives +1/+0 and is an uncommon. Plus if you consider it how does +1 group power and +1/+1 p/t even equate to what Battle Sliver gets.

    For -1cc you get Bonesplitter Sliver who is a 2/2 for 3R who gives slivers +2/+0. So for one less mana you get a 2/2 body instead of a 3/3 body for almost the exact same buff.


    Heart/Firewake/Reflex Sliver

    VS.

    Blur Sliver 2R
    Creature - Sliver (C)

    Verdict: Blur Sliver Loses.
    The Only sliver that Blur Sliver even wins fairly against is Reflex Sliver. When you get right down to it, Heart Sliver may cost 1cc less and gets -1/-1 p/t compared to Blur, but since Heart's only purpose is to enable haste, it never really needs to attack unless its been buffed for its own survival or make the game winning swing. Also since Blur Sliver hits that 3cc area its a bit expensive for only having haste. When compared to Firewake Sliver who costs 1RG is a 1/1, who grants haste and can also temporarily buff one of your guys by +2/+2 at the cost of one of your guys.


    Talon Sliver/Spitting Sliver

    VS.

    Striking Sliver R
    Creature - Sliver (C)
    Slivers you control have First Strike.
    1/1

    Verdict: Striking Sliver Wins.
    This is in similar form to Sentinel Sliver to why its better than its predecessors.

    Spitting Sliver costs +4cc is a 3/3 and grants all slivers first strike and is a common. This can be very bad if you consider running R/B/x or W/B/x Sliver deck.
    Talon Sliver costs +1cc is a 1/1 and grants all slivers first strike and is a common as well. This only barely gets beaten by Striking Sliver by being 1cc more expensive.


    Horned Sliver/Battering Sliver

    VS.

    Groundshaker Sliver 6G
    Creature - Sliver (C)
    Slivers you control have trample.
    5/5

    Verdict: Groundshaker Sliver Loses.
    Simply because in the same color Horned Sliver is cheaper and that Battering Sliver who is off color is still 1cc cheaper for -1/-1 p/t.

    Observations:
    -So far only two of the spoiled slivers so far are more playable than their predecessors. Those two being Striking Sliver and Sentinel Sliver.
    Peasant Dragon Highlander Decks
  • #2
    I entirely disagree with comparing the Slivers like that.

    The new Slivers will >AlwaysBut for the sake of discussion: I'd rather have Steelform over Plated. Simply because a 2/3 is going to be way more relevant on its own. The new Sliver can actually deal some damage and block decently. Whereas Plated isn't that flexible.

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  • #3
    Quote from Mr. Hiss
    I entirely disagree with comparing the Slivers like that.

    The new Slivers will >AlwaysBut for the sake of discussion: I'd rather have Steelform over Plated. Simply because a 2/3 is going to be way more relevant on its own. The new Sliver can actually deal some damage and block decently. Whereas Plated isn't that flexible.

    - Hiss.


    Depends on the speed of your deck. A turn one plated into a turn two sinew is pretty good by turning two 1/1 dorks into 2/3s. After all, slivers are effectively enchantments with legs that provide various bonuses and keywords to each other. Then you yourself have to pick and choose exactly how you would build it. I personally prefer cheap slivers that cost 3cmc or less, 4-5 being the peak that is pushing the envelope. Like putting down a turn one plated followed by a turn two sentinel makes your sentinel into a 2/3 on turn two.

    Slivers are never meant to be on their own. If they are, then that sliver is not going to have a nice day. Each one builds upon the army. If your deck for instance is W/G mana and you have already casted Horned Sliver, Might Sliver, and a Sidewinder Sliver, than your Metallic Sliver which is normally just a 1/1 for 1 is now a 3/3 Trampler with Flanking for 1 upon casting the Metallic Sliver. After all each Sliver has synergy with each other for various combinations and benefits. For instance if you a Pulmonic Sliver + Descendants' Path you can always keep one sliver you control from permanently being out of commission while not affecting your card draw as well.

    Slivers used to always play "awkward" because they cared about the hive not in the futile squabbles of two planeswalkers. In fact the easiest way to hose a Sliver deck even this new kind is with an old sliver from TSP block called Plague Sliver who still affects these new slivers. It gets even more harsh if you clone a plague sliver even once as the guy sitting across from you with five slivers now is losing 10 Life a turn. Another sliver that hoses sliver decks by itself is Dormant Sliver for the obvious reason of defender.

    As we know of now, we have not seen every single sliver they have to offer with their fourth incarnation, however if no anthem slivers are printed then I will stick with my slivers like Sinew Sliver and Muscle Sliver who I find act as the backbone of any aggro Sliver deck.
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  • #4
    Slivers are being dumbed down because it is hard for younger players to keep track of all the effects they have (power/toughness modifiers), that is the only reason for this change of ability.
  • #5
    Quote from hotgoat
    Slivers are being dumbed down because it is hard for younger players to keep track of all the effects they have (power/toughness modifiers), that is the only reason for this change of ability.


    I think that this is how Slivers were intended to work in the first place

    Sort of like how Unflinching Courage is a "fixed" Armadillo Cloak

    It also makes them much more viable as creatures in terms of gameplay: they don't help your opponent which is a smart design decision.
  • #6
    Quote from hotgoat
    Slivers are being dumbed down because it is hard for younger players to keep track of all the effects they have (power/toughness modifiers), that is the only reason for this change of ability.


    I was 13 when I played with Slivers, what younger players are you talking about? If it was good enough for a 13 y.o in 1997 are you saying that kids today are outright stupid?
  • #7
    I think that this is how Slivers were intended to work in the first place

    Sort of like how Unflinching Courage is a "fixed" Armadillo Cloak

    It also makes them much more viable as creatures in terms of gameplay: they don't help your opponent which is a smart design decision.


    Totally false. Plague Sliver is a ant-sliver sliver based on the symmetry of the ability. The symmetry was intentional.

    The idea is to make a sliver vs. sliver match being much different then a sliver vs. other tribe deck. It is part of old magic design to make colors/archetypes behave differently depending on the opponent as opposed to self-centered strategy that is reinforced in today's design. See how landwalk, color restricted spells (such as black not killing black creatures, white tons of protection vs. red and black) and very specific hate were much more prevalent in the past.
    Standard -
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  • #8
    New slivers are lame. Frown

    They should have just given then a different tribe name and all would be right in the world. Smile
  • #9
    Quote from justeven
    I was 13 when I played with Slivers, what younger players are you talking about? If it was good enough for a 13 y.o in 1997 are you saying that kids today are outright stupid?


    Kids these days, they're fruity and weak. The young lads don't even have the balls to get on my lawn so I can yell at them to off my property I am so ANGRY
  • #10
    I think that this is how Slivers were intended to work in the first place

    Considering that they debuted in the same block as Shadow (An ability that was specifically designed to interact with opponents' creatures with shadow), I doubt it.

    It certainly wasn't like that by the time they designed Time Spiral limited.
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  • #11
    Personally I feel like Slivers have been dumbed down to only affect you for the same reason why Black has lost all of its "ultimate power for ultimate sacrifice" spells. New players don't understand giving yourself a disadvantage (or giving your opponents an "advantage") for some advantage of your own. For instance, I loved the mechanic suspend and I loved old black. Why? Because Suspend lets you cast something for cheap, set it off to the side, and then have it suddenly come into play later. The reason that was good is because you can do things like board wipe the turn before they come in then have a clear board for your creature. But as MaRo shown, Suspend is one of the least liked mechanics because it confused new players. Cards like Phyrexian Negator also confused new players because they could not understand the benefit of having a 5/5 trampler turn 1 (with dark rit).

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  • #12
    Quote from Evenoire
    Personally I feel like Slivers have been dumbed down to only affect you for the same reason why Black has lost all of its "ultimate power for ultimate sacrifice" spells. New players don't understand giving yourself a disadvantage (or giving your opponents an "advantage") for some advantage of your own.


    Ummm, black sacrifice spells are still here. And giving your opponent's slivers straight up positive buffs has no advantages.


  • #13
    Quote from Smokestack
    Ummm, black sacrifice spells are still here. And giving your opponent's slivers straight up positive buffs has no advantages.


    Derp, giving them flying for instance wouldn't then open them up to spells that only target/damage flying creatures? You are why its dumbing down
  • #14
    I just wish there is hope in playing a sliver deck in standard Grin
  • #15
    Quote from Spike Sliver
    Derp, giving them flying for instance wouldn't then open them up to spells that only target/damage flying creatures? You are why its dumbing down


    That might be one of the stupidest arguments I've seen.

    In drafting it adds complexity and creativity, you go away from 100% Slivers or 0% Sliver to making it actually a valid sub-theme with this change.
  • #16
    Quote from Spike Sliver
    Derp, giving them flying for instance wouldn't then open them up to spells that only target/damage flying creatures? You are why its dumbing down


    Yes, because I always pack anti-flying spells in my sliver decks in case A) my opponents are playing slivers and B) I get my winged sliver out.

    The point behind things like this is because corner interactions like that, strategically, don't make up for the loss in mental room caused by having it as a global change. The point isn't to dumb down the game, but make it so you don't have to have five million interactions memorized just to make a move, allowing you to spend more mental space on actual interaction and strategy.

    Here, lets give an example: Chess. What if there was a rule that if you move three of your pieces in a specific order, you can move a pawn to the left on your next play? Would that add much strategic depth to the game? Would it, in fact, come up much at all? Yet if you want to play at a good level, you'd have to memorize it, just in case. Can you think of any such rule that would add strategic depth? Now this is a game of 6 to 8 movement types, with simple rules. And yet it obviously isn't greatly improved by adding extraneous interactions, at least in my humble opinion. Magic is a game that already has thousands of interactions to memorize, yet you really think they're 'dumbing down the game' by boiling it down to the level where strategic play is what wins games, rather than rote memorization and knowing more about what happens than your opponents?
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  • #17
    Quote from Onkel
    That might be one of the stupidest arguments I've seen.


    Stupid argument or not, I'm just showing how you're wrong.
  • #18
    Really the only thing that I don't like about the new slivers is that my Hivestones dont hose them. I understand about NWO and the need for one-sided buffs, but the sliver vs sliver matchups were always my favorite part about slivers. All your dudes ridiculously large, knowing that combat will almost always 1 for 1, hoping to win the race before the standoff starts and the armies just build up until you can draw your overrun and just sweep in with a gorillion big/huge trample slivers.

    I will still enjoy slivers in M14, but I will miss those games.
    I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.
  • #19
    I like them both, They make sense flavor wise and basically do the same things for me.
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  • #20
    I will take old school slivers over these hipster slivers any day.

    Based on artwork, they make slivers look terrible. Slivers were inspired by the movie, Aliens. This clearly should have been a different race, maybe one that is a result of something happening to the slivers and whatever happens in the storyline for them.
  • #21
    I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE the new slivers... The ones I've seen so far (and I expect the rest to follow suit) are effectively reprints of golden oldies for one... And secondly, making the bonus only affect your own slivers MAY possibly make some flavour sense if anyone cares about that but mostly, slivers just got broke. Only giving abilities to you kills exactly half the point of old school slivers. No longer will two opponents playing slivers be even remotely as interesting.. and hivestone no longer saves us... I just feel like this is a baaaad idea by RnD.
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  • #22
    Quote from SarumansArmy
    I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE the new slivers... The ones I've seen so far (and I expect the rest to follow suit) are effectively reprints of golden oldies for one... And secondly, making the bonus only affect your own slivers MAY possibly make some flavour sense if anyone cares about that but mostly, slivers just got broke. Only giving abilities to you kills exactly half the point of old school slivers. No longer will two opponents playing slivers be even remotely as interesting.. and hivestone no longer saves us... I just feel like this is a baaaad idea by RnD.


    I do like the flavour implications that in a battle between the old slivers and these "evolved" ones, the evolved ones will have all the benefits and more!
    ... That's all I like about them, though.
  • #23
    Only the green sliver that gives them all +1+1 excites me cause I can see a cool modern deck forming. REALY need a hexproof sliver though to complete it.
    Last edited by Wraith223: 5/16/2013 7:00:06 PM
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  • #24
    The old slivers are way more interesting IMO
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  • #25
    In the old sets if you vs a sliver type while your where playing one as well it would be a sort of race to plop all those little guys and make sure you killed some of the opposition. With these big gun high cost especially the green the only way id see running them is if the have elf ramp....... again....... in a set unless they have a gemhide one thats not too exspensive in c.c
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