People are reaaaally overvaluing the Orim's Chant effect. It's really only relevant pretty late into the game. Not sure you'd want it over Counterflux (assuming you can play either one).
For standard this doesn't really have many implications, but for modern and legacy it is a counterspell that helps w/ combo type matchups
For standard this doesn't really have many implications, but for modern and legacy it is a counterspell that helps w/ combo type matchups
Yeah especially for ritual based combos. Counter their first ritual effect and buy yourself another turn. What I'm just wondering is if you will ever get a deck that plays that colours and can survive long enough to cast it.
Even Mana Leak is fine, people just assumed it was too good not realizing the amass of efficient spells that made a 3/2 flyer on turn 2 reliable was what was actually killing them.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
There has been a surge of combo brewing in Standard recently. Between Ghostly Flicker a thousand times with Guttersnipe in play, to Fiend Hunter/AoGR/Undercity Informer loop. I even had to sort out Deadeye Navigator/Acidic Slime/Ghostly Flicker last week...
They are fragile, for now, but maybe Dragons Maze and beyond will throw Standard into a sort of Kamigawa/Ravnica type standard, where decks like heartbeat and owling mine were becoming all the rage.
This may be the card that allows control to survive through Dragons Maze, and even after. This is not an optimal choice for other formats, but in standard, it can easily replace Cancel/Dissipate.
Combo is coming...
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Yeah especially for ritual based combos. Counter their first ritual effect and buy yourself another turn. What I'm just wondering is if you will ever get a deck that plays that colours and can survive long enough to cast it.
Counter their first non-ritual effect, or their 3rd/4th ritual, whichever comes first. (Depending on how they plan to kill you...)
This spell doesn't actually become useful until the game has progressed to the point where players will be casting more than one spell a turn. Until that point it's a most color costly Cancel. Counterflux is better against control, and this is too late for aggro.
So casual? You can tutor it up with Sunforger, which is cool I suppose.
Two mana counterspells are borderline playable as it is. Three mana counterspells are nearly unplayable except in the weakest and slowest of formats.Nothing to see here.
Though possibly powerful when the meta shifts, it just feels... boring. I mean, at such a restrictive mana cost it's practically unplayable, but with games barely reaching past T7 sometimes I don't see the point of the Silence effect. Blitz is dropping 2+ creatures T2, so it's a turn too late, and midrange/control decks don't normally play more than one spell a turn till after the T6 mark roughly.
I don't know. Maybe it hoses a strategy in Theros that's Storm-like or is meant mainly for Eternal formats.
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If that's your "casual," what on earth is required for "formal," a butler in livery shuffling the decks whilst a pianist plays Brahms in front of a tapestry?
Two mana counterspells are borderline playable as it is. Three mana counterspells are nearly unplayable except in the weakest and slowest of formats.Nothing to see here.
I still see some Dissipate play in Standard right now, Absorb saw consistent play in Old Extended No-Stick, and Counterflux sees play in Modern sideboards as an anti-combo measure. If 3-cmc counterspells are good enough, they will see notable play.
This is arguably not any better than Dissipate in standard; while it can occasionally be relevant against humans to counter a spell and shut down casting, by the same token it is extremely relevant against reanimator to counter a spell and exile it. As has been noted in this thread, 3-CMC counters don't see a ton of play outside of standard and casual, and then once again this 3-mana counter is competing against Dissipate again (or Hinder). The only format it's really hyper relevant in is Commander, where "Counter + Silence" can actually be a pretty relevant move against many decks in the format past turn six or so and it makes a 4th counterspell that players can call up with Sunforger in a "America" deck.
Of course, Dissipate likely rotates out in 6 months, so we can return to this card then.
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A prohibitive mana arrangement at 3 mana? You've gotta be kidding me, WoTC. This is the best you can do for control?
While I somewhat agree this isn't really powerful you honestly just asked if that is the best they can go do after technically only 2 cards are spoiled with around 130 more left in the set?
Somebody needs to work on some patience. I'm sure that is the only control based card in the set though...
Firstly, OK, it's a counterspell with a slightly more restrictive mana cost than Dissipate or Cancel. However, the only time it's better than either of those is when your opponent intends to play 2 or more spells in one turn, and is unable to do so at instant speed. Remember that your opponent can cast and resolve spells in response to Silence/Render Silent.
So, what kind of deck wants to play 2 spells per turn? I don't play Standard, but the best I can guess is one with Snapcaster Mage in it. In Modern, which I'm more interested in, engine combo decks do - but the only one left is Eggs (thanks for banning Storm and Elves, DCI), and that deck is already notoriously weak to counterspells.
Furthermore, 3 mana is pretty high for a counterspell in Modern. The only playable counterspells at 3 or more mana are Cryptic Command, Condescend and Spell Burst (the latter two only in Tron decks). History does not lend itself strongly to Render Silent being playable in Modern.
Lastly, Silence is not Time Walk. Your opponent can still draw, attack and activate abilities.
All in all, I think this card is merely a 3 mana counterspell with an extremely minor upside in exchange for a worse casting cost. Is that enough to see play? Again, I don't follow Standard, but I'd look to Counterflux for the answer. In Modern, no.
Yeah if you don't play standard you don't see the decks. The heavy aggro decks, like Naya Blitz are looking to play 3 spells at least on Turn 3. If they aren't against control there is a good chance they are loosing the game.
While this card may be preeminently powerful, it is very well designed; it's what you'd expect this effect to cost all together, given modern costing for counters. I imagine many amateur designers are bragging that they designed it first, though I'd expect someone submitted this card to a design file before, and it kept getting put off. While not particularly exciting, it is a nice option to have on the table and could be playable while in Standard.
This card isn't a Gruul aggro killer. Firstly, it's a counterspell, which is universally terrible against aggro unless you can cast it on turn 1 (i.e. Mental Misstep). Secondly, what's more important: stopping their Burning-Tree Emissary or the card that they're planning to chain into? Hellrider is a lot more troublesome than BTE, and is more worth your counterspell.
"But he can't play Hellrider on the turn I counter his BTE!" The Hellrider is still in his hand, and he gets to do it next turn. Do you think you can kill him before that? Given that your deck is UW, probably not. In the end it still comes out, and you have a 3/3 haste to deal with instead of a 2/2 vanilla.
I am also expecting a blue and green 3 CMC couterspell in Dragon's Maze.
What's wrong with Psychic Strike is that I forgot about it.
Yeah, I think that one goes on the list, and I'd obviously play it over Cancel in a UBx deck. I'm pretty sure I'd rather play Counterflux in Grixis, and I'd probably prefer Render Silent over Psychic Strike in Esper, but that's close enough that it would depend on how good Standard mana bases are this Fall. Obviously if BUG control is a thing, I'd play Psychic Strike there if I want a hard counter and they don't print some other option (like the UG one you're predicting) that is better.
For standard this doesn't really have many implications, but for modern and legacy it is a counterspell that helps w/ combo type matchups
They want a good 2cmc counter, but spell rupture/syncopate are probably the closest things we'll see till the next block.
Yeah especially for ritual based combos. Counter their first ritual effect and buy yourself another turn. What I'm just wondering is if you will ever get a deck that plays that colours and can survive long enough to cast it.
I want Condescend and Absorb : /
Even Mana Leak is fine, people just assumed it was too good not realizing the amass of efficient spells that made a 3/2 flyer on turn 2 reliable was what was actually killing them.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
They are fragile, for now, but maybe Dragons Maze and beyond will throw Standard into a sort of Kamigawa/Ravnica type standard, where decks like heartbeat and owling mine were becoming all the rage.
This may be the card that allows control to survive through Dragons Maze, and even after. This is not an optimal choice for other formats, but in standard, it can easily replace Cancel/Dissipate.
Combo is coming...
- Howard Shultz
CURRENTLY PLAYING
UWR: American Control
Counter their first non-ritual effect, or their 3rd/4th ritual, whichever comes first. (Depending on how they plan to kill you...)
So casual? You can tutor it up with Sunforger, which is cool I suppose.
Oh Rider, my heart will go on...
I don't know. Maybe it hoses a strategy in Theros that's Storm-like or is meant mainly for Eternal formats.
-Epicurus
-Standard Decks-
Bant Flash
Bant Enchant
Naya Mid
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Mythic rares are fine.
I still see some Dissipate play in Standard right now, Absorb saw consistent play in Old Extended No-Stick, and Counterflux sees play in Modern sideboards as an anti-combo measure. If 3-cmc counterspells are good enough, they will see notable play.
Of course, Dissipate likely rotates out in 6 months, so we can return to this card then.
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While I somewhat agree this isn't really powerful you honestly just asked if that is the best they can go do after technically only 2 cards are spoiled with around 130 more left in the set?
Somebody needs to work on some patience. I'm sure that is the only control based card in the set though...
Yeah if you don't play standard you don't see the decks. The heavy aggro decks, like Naya Blitz are looking to play 3 spells at least on Turn 3. If they aren't against control there is a good chance they are loosing the game.
"But he can't play Hellrider on the turn I counter his BTE!" The Hellrider is still in his hand, and he gets to do it next turn. Do you think you can kill him before that? Given that your deck is UW, probably not. In the end it still comes out, and you have a 3/3 haste to deal with instead of a 2/2 vanilla.
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Big Johnny.
What's wrong with Psychic Strike?
I am also expecting a blue and green 3 CMC couterspell in Dragon's Maze.
What's wrong with Psychic Strike is that I forgot about it.
Yeah, I think that one goes on the list, and I'd obviously play it over Cancel in a UBx deck. I'm pretty sure I'd rather play Counterflux in Grixis, and I'd probably prefer Render Silent over Psychic Strike in Esper, but that's close enough that it would depend on how good Standard mana bases are this Fall. Obviously if BUG control is a thing, I'd play Psychic Strike there if I want a hard counter and they don't print some other option (like the UG one you're predicting) that is better.