Yeah I was just talking straight up creature race which of course rarely happens.
But yeah I really think that standard hasn't registered how to defend against Reckoner yet. The comparison to Spitemare is valid, understanding of course that Reckoner costs less and has the first strike ability.
Next question: Why would anyone ever block this guy? He's begging for combat so it seems completely foolish to engage. I mean 3 damage every turn is significant enough to have to have a solution but its not insurmountable to race. What about 0/X walls? Fog bank, Angelic Wall, Hover Barrier and Wall of Fire nerf this guy pretty bad.
And most of those cards are Bad. When you have to resort to walls...
As per why would you ever block...well, most of the time, you don't. You'd only block if it was beneficial to, which it very rarely is. It gets more complicated though because it doesn't "have" to attack. Indeed even in aggro red vs. aggro red it can just sit back, block and ruin your aggressive opponent's gameplan.
Yeah of that I'm certain but Fog Bank is actually a really good card. And if your running it your probably not running aggro. I mean if your running red in standard it seems pretty logical that you should be running this guy. And if your attacking, well stands to reason you should be using evasive creatures like Nighthawk, Falkenrath Aristocrat, any angel or any critter that's unblockable.
In some ways I think Reckoner is bad for the game but at the same time I think he makes you build a better deck...
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
You know you guys really should mind the hype. So far Reckoner has proven to be a bit format warping. If, and that's a really big if, he continues on his current trajectory I could see him being banned. Something to keep in mind.
Ummm and I don't recall ever saying anything about a better deck with fog bank. I merely put fog bank out there as an answer to Reckoner.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
You know you guys really should mind the hype. So far Reckoner has proven to be a bit format warping. If, and that's a really big if, he continues on his current trajectory I could see him being banned. Something to keep in mind.
Ummm and I don't recall ever saying anything about a better deck with fog bank. I merely put fog bang out there as an answer to Reckoner.
Reckoner is not exactly format warping, at least not any more than say Hellrider, Falkenrath Aristocrat or Thundermaw Hellkite or even a little dude named Delver of Secrets. Decks are using Reckoner because it's a very good 3-drop, something that red has needed for a while.
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and you are here to stay and burn with me.
I'm not 100% sure it is, actually. If on your sixth turn you do nothing but kill one of their lands and one of your creatures, you're giving a serious advantage to your opponent. That 13 damage better kill him outright. That's not to say it won't happen, but if he kills your Reckoner in response you're left with pretty much a dead card. Land destruction is hardly viable even at 3-4 mana.
Blasphemous act does exactly what you propose, only better because it lets you kill their creatures as well, and can deal 26+ damage if you have more than one reckoner in play.
That has some nice synergy with Boros Charm too, since it means your creatures are still standing afterwards.
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You know you guys really should mind the hype. So far Reckoner has proven to be a bit format warping. If, and that's a really big if, he continues on his current trajectory I could see him being banned. Something to keep in mind.
Ummm and I don't recall ever saying anything about a better deck with fog bank. I merely put fog bank out there as an answer to Reckoner.
I don't understand
You said Boros Reckoner sucked and that players buying into the hype were sheep
And now it's warping the format (a format you don't play) to the point where it might be banned?
So far Reckoner has proven to be a bit format warping. If, and that's a really big if, he continues on his current trajectory I could see him being banned.
So would it be fair to say that your opinion has changed since you described Reckoner as:
Congrats everybody! We've just proved to WOTC that they can print crap and we'll still pay out the ass for it in the secondary market...Way to go. Yay us!!
Go ahead and throw your money away on a mediocre card. The only reason he looks so good is the rest of the set at large is so bad. He doesn't measure up to other 3 mana uncommon creatures like Leatherback Baloth or Woolly Thoctar. At best he uses his ability to go 1 for 1 in combat. He dies to everything, most times without any benefit. And he doesn't redirect the damage, he merely reciprocates and dies.
Bottom line is Boros Reckoner is a mediocre card in a very bad set(beyond standard and Limited). He may have potential in some combo or control build but alone in a RDW build he's really just mehhh.
?
That's quite the 180. Mind explaining what changed to make this card go from mediocre crap to format warping, ban watch list, competitive staple in your eyes?
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
So would it be fair to say that your opinion has changed since you described Reckoner as:
and
?
That's quite the 180. Mind explaining what changed to make this card go from mediocre crap to format warping, ban watch list, competitive staple in your eyes?
I guess I'm learning hyperbole doesn't transfer well in text.
I'm also trying to evaluate him in the context of standard, which is alien to say the least.
Btw, you guys know what else thinks alike right???
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I'm learning hyperbole doesn't transfer well in text.
I'm also trying to evaluate him in the context of standard, which is alien to say the least.
Btw, you guys know what else thinks alike right???
I imagine you're implying sheep?
I wouldn't know what those think like, but I assume changing your mind about a card because of popular opinion or because it's proven to be good without ever understanding why would be pretty sheep-ish...
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Further, I figure it doesn't do any body any good coming out and saying a good card is good. Really if you can't figure out if a card is good or not you really need work on eval and need to really play some draft. Further still, when you come out saying said card is good you risk generating hype which drives prices up to ridiculous levels, like what we're seeing now. This is the origin of the sheep comment. Enough people get on the hype bandwagon and all of a sudden a good portion of the population starts stampeding mindlessly towards said card.
Now allow me to explain hyperbole. Its defined as the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. I said it sucked because where I would play it it is merely marginally good. I think it'll find a home but I wouldn't look for it to be a staple in an preexisting deck. And since there were already 16 or so pages of people heaping praise upon it, I chose the course of devil's advocate. Its a though experiment that pretty much failed more or less because people seem to already have an emotional investment, physical investment or are of the group of people as a whole that represent the format of where he is awesome.
As to the whole format warping comment, well isn't it by definition format warping right now? I mean for the population at large to spend $25 a piece on a card that is a mere month old must mean it provides some kind of excessive advantage, right? And for a card to exist that translates in a large number of cases into pure card/board advantage its reasonable to assume that, well the format is bending to it. You are, in a short time if this continues, going to be in one of two groups, those who play him and those planning to play against him. To me that's the very essence of warping. In fact it reminds me a bit of fae back around Lorwyn. Not saying he's gonna do that, at least god I hope WOTC would have learned from that, but the possibility seems to be there.
I wouldn't know what those think like, but I assume changing your mind about a card because of popular opinion or because it's proven to be good without ever understanding why would be pretty sheep-ish...
Actually I was implying the German population at large around 1938 who were ripe for a fascist dictatorship but that works too...
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I very highly doubt Reckoner will be banned unless something in the format drastically changes. Its trajectory in the format seems a lot like Thragtusk's - the decks that can use it have no real reason not to, and its a total pain to play against, but its far from unbeatable. Though I have hope that Reckoner's pervasiveness promotes a more skill intensive format than Thragtusk's did.
As to the whole format warping comment, well isn't it by definition format warping right now? I mean for the population at large to spend $25 a piece on a card that is a mere month old must mean it provides some kind of excessive advantage, right?
No
It mjust means it's a card a lot of people want and a significant amount of them are willing to pay that much for it
Relying on hyperbole to make a point is indicative of an inability to properly express yourself. You should try telling people what you think rather than try to trigger a reaction you are seeking.
Your behaviour in this thread is very indicative of the trend I see in a lot of players: the burning desire to be seen as "ahead of the curve", to be able to tell people "I told you so! Everybody saw this card was like "WOW" but I knew, I knew that it sucked but nobody listened"
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I very highly doubt Reckoner will be banned unless something in the format drastically changes. Its trajectory in the format seems a lot like Thragtusk's - the decks that can use it have no real reason not to, and its a total pain to play against, but its far from unbeatable. Though I have hope that Reckoner's pervasiveness promotes a more skill intensive format than Thragtusk's did.
It won't be banned. If Delver and Thragtusk weren't banned, this won't be either. There ARE answers for it, but most of those answers are not highly played at the moment. It probably isn't too much of a coincidence that the Pro Tour winning decklist had 4 Orzhov Charms and 8 sac outlets + Lingering Souls to prevent damage being reflected.
That's very true. And that was also the point I was trying to make a little ways back. I mean I honestly don't think the format as a whole took this thing seriously enough which is rather striking. Or maybe they did or at least the individual running the deck you mentioned did anyway.
As to it promoting a more skilled format, I think its certainly possible. Playing around good cards has always been a part of the game, hopefully it always will be.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Honestly, Reckoner isn't THAT fantastic. Its just fantastically built for the decks that need a good 3 drop. It doesn't actually have that much of a protection, not compared to Thraggy or Ghost Dad. What's he's good at is combat, he excels at stopping or getting past creatures in aggro. Beyond the awesome combos you can do with his damage ability, which I acknowledge is cool, much of the time he's a rather cheap 3/3 sometimes first striker. He wins in combat against most things. But a "Destroy target creature" works just as well as anything else. I acknowledge his effect on the meta, but Red was already good. This just really fits the curve most red decks want. And personally, I'm not complaining about a card that kicks Thragtusk's ass all day and night. That said, its a fantastic card for Red, and perhaps ironically against red. But I imagine decks like Esper control won't have much trouble against the guy. Boardsweeps, destroy, and counter work well against it. If the meta is damage removal heavy, well, yeah, he's gonna get better. It all depends on how long things stay early aggro-oriented. If the game begins to favor control and mid-range more, which I hear it does as we crack a format more thoroughly, it'll be far less shiny. And I don't think it's worth twenty five bucks, good though it may be ^.^
Honestly, Reckoner isn't THAT fantastic. Its just fantastically built for the decks that need a good 3 drop. It doesn't actually have that much of a protection, not compared to Thraggy or Ghost Dad.
you realize those cards cost 5 mana a piece, right? this is a fair 3-drop, unlike some other things(geist i'm looking at you).
And most of those cards are Bad. When you have to resort to walls...
As per why would you ever block...well, most of the time, you don't. You'd only block if it was beneficial to, which it very rarely is. It gets more complicated though because it doesn't "have" to attack. Indeed even in aggro red vs. aggro red it can just sit back, block and ruin your aggressive opponent's gameplan.
Actual its fairly easy to answer Reckoner.
Any 4/4 sized creature actual does the trick, it "trades" with him, stuff like Wurmcoil Engine and the like would totally hate against it.
But right now, the format is so bad, you simply have no reasonable answer to a Reckoner that doesnt make your deck worse against anyone else.
The card fits the metagame perfectly and is pushed enough to make the cut in red and white decks, while it trades 2for1 against many cards in the format, and at least 1v1 for a lot of stuff that costs more mana.
But in a world with Thrun and the like, it would make a much much worse card, but lucky we dont have them around, so Reckoner can rule in a world of bad creatures.
Any 4/4 sized creature actual does the trick, it "trades" with him, stuff like Wurmcoil Engine and the like would totally hate against it.
But right now, the format is so bad, you simply have no reasonable answer to a Reckoner that doesnt make your deck worse against anyone else.
The card fits the metagame perfectly and is pushed enough to make the cut in red and white decks, while it trades 2for1 against many cards in the format, and at least 1v1 for a lot of stuff that costs more mana.
But in a world with Thrun and the like, it would make a much much worse card, but lucky we dont have them around, so Reckoner can rule in a world of bad creatures.
Good points. No argument there except I think we'll start seeing some of the marginal cards be used as an answer to this. Its too good and too big to just ignore. If nothing else they may carve a slot out in sideboards.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
much of the time he's a rather cheap 3/3 sometimes first striker.
I'd add that most of the time he is a cheap 3/3 first striker that you can't profitably attack through or block. That is a lot for 3 mana. I agree with the people who say it warps the format in the same way as thragtusk, not bannable but you to need answers to it when building a deck. Splinter twin+ deceiver exarch was a combo that warped the format more than blasphemous act+ Boros reckoner, and it wasn't banned.
The black red white human deck that ended up winning the pro tour went to game 5 during the semi finals. He mulled to 5 on the play. Yet he still managed to win on the back of Boros Reckoner and blasphemous act.
Further still, when you come out saying said card is good you risk generating hype which drives prices up to ridiculous levels, like what we're seeing now.
The people who frequent this site is such a tiny % of the players worldwide. This board hypes dozens of cards every set, like desecration demon, vexing devil, but playtesting left them lacking. What actually drove the price of Boros Reckoner to ridiculous levels was people testing it and having amazing results with it, as evidenced by the 16 reckoners in the top 8 of pro tour Montreal.
This card will be the worst rare in RTR and less remembered than skaab ruibator in three months. It struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls, even in limited.
That its not simply "not good enough for competitive", or underpowered. But that this is offensively bad, the real stinker tier.
Still, my best evaluation is that its approximately on the same power level as a 4/4 for 4 vanilla beater.
But in a world with Thrun and the like, it would make a much much worse card, but lucky we dont have them around, so Reckoner can rule in a world of bad creatures.
I have to disagree, vehemently with that. What you are limiting being "good" against it is a card that is both bigger than it, and has hexproof. Almost every relevant creature ever printed at least trades with it, and Thrun is one of the very few exceptions, except that the 3 damage still can kill one of your other creatures or go to the face. Want to know a better creature that could deal with it? Nekrataal.
Saying that this standard, or really any standard in the last few years is full of "bad creatures" is woefully ignorant at best. I'd argue that standard is full of creatures that are "too good." Snapcaster, Thragtusk, Restoration Angel, Geist, and this are all examples of pushing power levels to ridiculous levels.
What you COULD argue would be that targeted removal and counterspells are bad at the moment. In that case you would have a decent point. Saying that creatures are currently bad though? No. Just, no.
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And most of those cards are Bad. When you have to resort to walls...
As per why would you ever block...well, most of the time, you don't. You'd only block if it was beneficial to, which it very rarely is. It gets more complicated though because it doesn't "have" to attack. Indeed even in aggro red vs. aggro red it can just sit back, block and ruin your aggressive opponent's gameplan.
In some ways I think Reckoner is bad for the game but at the same time I think he makes you build a better deck...
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
You, sir, continue to astound me.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
You know you guys really should mind the hype. So far Reckoner has proven to be a bit format warping. If, and that's a really big if, he continues on his current trajectory I could see him being banned. Something to keep in mind.
Ummm and I don't recall ever saying anything about a better deck with fog bank. I merely put fog bank out there as an answer to Reckoner.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Reckoner is not exactly format warping, at least not any more than say Hellrider, Falkenrath Aristocrat or Thundermaw Hellkite or even a little dude named Delver of Secrets. Decks are using Reckoner because it's a very good 3-drop, something that red has needed for a while.
The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
That has some nice synergy with Boros Charm too, since it means your creatures are still standing afterwards.
I don't understand
You said Boros Reckoner sucked and that players buying into the hype were sheep
And now it's warping the format (a format you don't play) to the point where it might be banned?
Holy mood swings Batman!
So would it be fair to say that your opinion has changed since you described Reckoner as:
and
?
That's quite the 180. Mind explaining what changed to make this card go from mediocre crap to format warping, ban watch list, competitive staple in your eyes?
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Great minds think alike
And not to mention at the same FREAKIN time!
I guess I'm learning hyperbole doesn't transfer well in text.
I'm also trying to evaluate him in the context of standard, which is alien to say the least.
Btw, you guys know what else thinks alike right???
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I imagine you're implying sheep?
I wouldn't know what those think like, but I assume changing your mind about a card because of popular opinion or because it's proven to be good without ever understanding why would be pretty sheep-ish...
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
This thread is such a train wreck...I love it.
Boros Reckoner > sliced bread.
Now allow me to explain hyperbole. Its defined as the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. I said it sucked because where I would play it it is merely marginally good. I think it'll find a home but I wouldn't look for it to be a staple in an preexisting deck. And since there were already 16 or so pages of people heaping praise upon it, I chose the course of devil's advocate. Its a though experiment that pretty much failed more or less because people seem to already have an emotional investment, physical investment or are of the group of people as a whole that represent the format of where he is awesome.
As to the whole format warping comment, well isn't it by definition format warping right now? I mean for the population at large to spend $25 a piece on a card that is a mere month old must mean it provides some kind of excessive advantage, right? And for a card to exist that translates in a large number of cases into pure card/board advantage its reasonable to assume that, well the format is bending to it. You are, in a short time if this continues, going to be in one of two groups, those who play him and those planning to play against him. To me that's the very essence of warping. In fact it reminds me a bit of fae back around Lorwyn. Not saying he's gonna do that, at least god I hope WOTC would have learned from that, but the possibility seems to be there.
Actually I was implying the German population at large around 1938 who were ripe for a fascist dictatorship but that works too...
Double post merged.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
No
It mjust means it's a card a lot of people want and a significant amount of them are willing to pay that much for it
Relying on hyperbole to make a point is indicative of an inability to properly express yourself. You should try telling people what you think rather than try to trigger a reaction you are seeking.
Your behaviour in this thread is very indicative of the trend I see in a lot of players: the burning desire to be seen as "ahead of the curve", to be able to tell people "I told you so! Everybody saw this card was like "WOW" but I knew, I knew that it sucked but nobody listened"
Hipsters everywhere you go...
Congrats! You finally said something that I can agree with.
Now, go work on your card evaluation skills because it's painfully obvious to anyone that you still have no clue what you're talking about.
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It won't be banned. If Delver and Thragtusk weren't banned, this won't be either. There ARE answers for it, but most of those answers are not highly played at the moment. It probably isn't too much of a coincidence that the Pro Tour winning decklist had 4 Orzhov Charms and 8 sac outlets + Lingering Souls to prevent damage being reflected.
As to it promoting a more skilled format, I think its certainly possible. Playing around good cards has always been a part of the game, hopefully it always will be.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
you realize those cards cost 5 mana a piece, right? this is a fair 3-drop, unlike some other things(geist i'm looking at you).
Actual its fairly easy to answer Reckoner.
Any 4/4 sized creature actual does the trick, it "trades" with him, stuff like Wurmcoil Engine and the like would totally hate against it.
But right now, the format is so bad, you simply have no reasonable answer to a Reckoner that doesnt make your deck worse against anyone else.
The card fits the metagame perfectly and is pushed enough to make the cut in red and white decks, while it trades 2for1 against many cards in the format, and at least 1v1 for a lot of stuff that costs more mana.
But in a world with Thrun and the like, it would make a much much worse card, but lucky we dont have them around, so Reckoner can rule in a world of bad creatures.
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Good points. No argument there except I think we'll start seeing some of the marginal cards be used as an answer to this. Its too good and too big to just ignore. If nothing else they may carve a slot out in sideboards.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I'd add that most of the time he is a cheap 3/3 first striker that you can't profitably attack through or block. That is a lot for 3 mana. I agree with the people who say it warps the format in the same way as thragtusk, not bannable but you to need answers to it when building a deck. Splinter twin+ deceiver exarch was a combo that warped the format more than blasphemous act+ Boros reckoner, and it wasn't banned.
The black red white human deck that ended up winning the pro tour went to game 5 during the semi finals. He mulled to 5 on the play. Yet he still managed to win on the back of Boros Reckoner and blasphemous act.
The people who frequent this site is such a tiny % of the players worldwide. This board hypes dozens of cards every set, like desecration demon, vexing devil, but playtesting left them lacking. What actually drove the price of Boros Reckoner to ridiculous levels was people testing it and having amazing results with it, as evidenced by the 16 reckoners in the top 8 of pro tour Montreal.
I have to disagree, vehemently with that. What you are limiting being "good" against it is a card that is both bigger than it, and has hexproof. Almost every relevant creature ever printed at least trades with it, and Thrun is one of the very few exceptions, except that the 3 damage still can kill one of your other creatures or go to the face. Want to know a better creature that could deal with it? Nekrataal.
Saying that this standard, or really any standard in the last few years is full of "bad creatures" is woefully ignorant at best. I'd argue that standard is full of creatures that are "too good." Snapcaster, Thragtusk, Restoration Angel, Geist, and this are all examples of pushing power levels to ridiculous levels.
What you COULD argue would be that targeted removal and counterspells are bad at the moment. In that case you would have a decent point. Saying that creatures are currently bad though? No. Just, no.