Boros Reckoner

  • #264
    Quote from damagecase
    baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
    Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
    BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    Anybody else hear that?


    Sounds like someone's taking this a little personally. Also, I recommend you put on your peril-sensitive sunglasses, as you're probably gonna see some red text show up for that. (EDIT: Nath'd by the mod.)

    Boros Reckoner is a good card. It may not stand out in eternal formats, but it fits a certain niche in Standard, and does so very, very well. It is seeing a lot of play -- and rightly so -- and is rising to a price level commensurate with its demand. Rare card + limelight = high price. That's just basic economics, irrespective of whatever format we're discussing.

    In your tone, I detect some annoyance at the general price of Standard staples. I get that, and I completely agree with you. If you had asked me fifteen years ago whether I thought an in-print rare would fetch $25, I would have called you crazy. But now that's not uncommon, is it?

    I want to address one minor point in your comments. You noted that Standard players often invest a lot of money into Standard cards, only for those cards to de-value rapidly and extensively after format rotation. Your tone conveyed a sense that the player is "victimized" by WotC in these cases. I need to point that out as a fallacy; WotC doesn't receive any money at all when someone buys a card on the secondary market, and doesn't stand to gain anything by our collections falling in value when a set rotates. When it comes to the cost of Standard cards, there are exactly two groups who share the blame: singles retailers (both online and brick-and-mortar) for pricing cards so damn high, and players for being willing to spend such egregious sums on Magic cards. To some degree, we do this to ourselves.

    Simic EVOLVE ALL THE THINGS!!! Simic
  • #265
    My thoughts in FAQ form:
    * Is Boros Reckoner a good card? Seems to.
    * Is it an all star format staple? I dunno but it might good enough for Standard and Block.
    * Is it price tag justified? Seeing the hype, that the set has been out only for a week and that there is not enough supply for that hype... I would say yes; price can be easily justified.
    * Is the price going to stay this high (20+)? Doubtful. Only over-the-top splashable multi-format staples keep their price tag for above 20+.
    * Does anyone care how much some people paid for their Reckoners during pre-orders? Obviously I can not speak for all the people but personaly, I wouldn't care less since that is pretty irrelevant for the playability of the card and/or its future price curve.
    Last edited by DeusExMachina: 2/13/2013 10:23:18 PM
  • #266
    I don't think the player is victimized by WOTC, I think they are victimized by themselves.
    Folks need to wise up. The mtg market is a microcosm of our inability to evaluate anythings value properly.

    But it twas a mighty fine flame....lol.
  • #267
    Quote from redthirst


    3. Calling other people sheep doesn't make you look like some enlightened minority - it makes you look like some douchy hipster. Honestly, how would you feel about someone who says that you're a sheep for playing "established" formats because real players play formats that they make up themselves? That's roughly how ridiculous you look to me when you call Standard players sheep... especially when you make comments like us "being led to slaughter". What is that even suppose to mean? Do you think WoTC just fattening us Standard players up for sacrifice?

    Rolleyes


    I for one welcome our pagan worshipping overlords.


    Boros Reckoner went down from $11 to $9 yesterday on MTGO. Now its back up to $10....
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  • #268
    Quote from damagecase
    baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
    Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
    BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    Anybody else hear that?


    Your argumentative skills are breathtaking in their complexity.

    As for Reckoner, in the current Standard, it is a powerhouse of a card. If the price seems ridiculous, then just remember that there are people willing to pay it to get the card. I don't play eternal formats, so I don't care if it's good there or not.

    For comparison, Thundermaw Hellkite was once $10. It was seen as a good card, but it wasn't a necessary card. Now it's over $30, and it's everywhere.

    R Searing Seneschal of Salvation R



    Cogito, ergo incendo.
  • #269
    Bad comparison. Hellkite drops and wins. This comes down and says kill me. Hellkite might find a home in modern, maybe even legacy, this likely won't.

    You know, I made points and I was respectful of the everybody else's love of Standard on here and all I hear is people saying "I don't care about eternal formats...blah blah blah."

    And I think standard is fun as well its just not sustainable. As for the Reckoner I never ever ever EVER said it was unplayable or bad in standard. People immediately assume that because I come out and make a point of saying that I don't play standard for said reasons, I am saying standard is bad. I'm trying to put my point across relative to me an my experiences which necessarily comes from first, the formats I play and second the long term card value of said card, which by in part or total will be determined by the formats I play. Standard prices are determined by really nothing more than the whim of the mtg community. I.E. people talk up a card like Reckoner on as forum and maybe a pro or two something nice about it and BAMMM $20 rare. Most of the time anything good said about a new card is predicated on its playability in standard. Which, now this needs to be fully understood, has absolutely no bearing what so ever its value post rotation.

    Further I don't think you should evaluate my argument skills based on a blatant flame which was intentional and at least I found it quite funny.
    Last edited by damagecase: 2/14/2013 12:10:32 AM
  • #270
    Quote from damagecase
    Bad comparison. Hellkite drops and wins. This comes down and says kill me. Hellkite might find a home in modern, maybe even legacy, this likely won't.

    You know, I made points and I was respectful of the everybody else's love of Standard on here and all I hear is people saying "I don't care about eternal formats...blah blah blah."

    And I think standard is fun as well its just not sustainable. As for the Reckoner I never ever ever EVER said it was unplayable or bad in standard. People immediately assume that because I come out and make a point of saying that I don't play standard for said reasons, I am saying standard is bad. I'm trying to put my point across relative to me an my experiences which necessarily comes from first, the formats I play and second the long term card value of said card, which by in part or total will be determined by the formats I play. Standard prices are determined by really nothing more than the whim of the mtg community. I.E. people talk up a card like Reckoner on as forum and maybe a pro or two something nice about it and BAMMM $20 rare. Most of the time anything good said about a new card is predicated on its playability in standard. Which, now this needs to be fully understood, has absolutely no bearing what so ever its value post rotation.

    Further I don't think you should evaluate my argument skills based on a blatant flame which was intentional and at least I found it quite funny.


    At least someone found it funny. Do you find yourself laughing at your own jokes quite often? It looks like the mod found it hilarious though.

    As for your argumentative skills, I certainly can't evaluate them based on anything else you've written. You're the one who went the ad hominem route by comparing someone to a sheep. Once you need to resort to logical fallacies, then you've lost the argument because you've essentially destroyed your own credibility.

    By your own admission, you do not play Standard, and yet you're here criticizing a card being played in the Standard format. The only real conclusion I can draw from that is that you like needlessly riling people so that you can laugh at them for not comprehending your brilliance.

    We're here saying that Reckoner is a good card in the format that we play. You're trying to argue that it's not a good card because it's not being played in other formats. Night and day, much?

    R Searing Seneschal of Salvation R



    Cogito, ergo incendo.
  • #271
    Quote from damagecase
    I don't think the player is victimized by WOTC, I think they are victimized by themselves.
    Folks need to wise up. The mtg market is a microcosm of our inability to evaluate anythings value properly.


    The smart standard player gets great value while having fun, not lose 90% of their investment every year. Let me recap what I and probably many others here do:

    1) Pick up undervalued standard playable cards when a new set comes out, stuff you need for your deck anyway: Deathrite shaman, Boros Reckoner, Ash zealot, Hellrider, restoration angel, silverblade paladin, falkenrath aristocrat, olivia voldaren. Or pick cards that will inevitably go up a lot in a year (clifftop retreat, scars fastlands). The same thing literally happens every year. Middle set cards explode in value, 2-3$ manabases from last year's block reach 15$.

    2) Have fun playing them for around 18 months.

    3) Trade them in or sell them 6 months before they rotate while they are at their peak value. Double, triple or even more than what you initially paid for them.

    There is very little risk in buying standard only playable cards when the prices cool (like for return to ravnica right now) as long as you get rid of them a while before rotation. Falkenrath Aristocrat? Terrible card for eternal formats, so why bother right? Except they went as low as 4$, and went as high as 25$. Same thing with Reckoner.

    4) Do the same thing with the current block.

    If you do this, standard is a format that gives the player back a lot more than they invested. Those that have picked up on Boros Reckoner's standard playability and picked em up while they were cheap are well rewarded, unlike those who shun standard and choose to pass up on getting expensive cards for cheap.

    "Bad comparison. Hellkite drops and wins. This comes down and says kill me."

    Both Thundermaw and Boros Reckoner's value is strictly due to standard, but Reckoner is much more favored in mono red decks (the decks that used to run Thundermaw). Agro decks don't want to play 5 drops and 25 lands anymore. Not sure why you think you want to evaluate cards in a vacuum without knowing a format though.

    You seem to take pity on standard players who waste money on stuff that's not gonna hold value. I'm the one having pity on people who misses out on a great and popular format because they don't know when to get rid of rotating cards.
    Last edited by Calvinw: 2/14/2013 1:24:30 AM
    Clan_Iraq ,hater of punisher cards, on Desecration demon:
    This card will be the worst rare in RTR and less remembered than skaab ruibator in three months. It struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls, even in limited.

    That its not simply "not good enough for competitive", or underpowered. But that this is offensively bad, the real stinker tier.

    Still, my best evaluation is that its approximately on the same power level as a 4/4 for 4 vanilla beater.
  • #272
    Quote from windstrider
    At least someone found it funny. Do you find yourself laughing at your own jokes quite often? It looks like the mod found it hilarious though.

    As for your argumentative skills, I certainly can't evaluate them based on anything else you've written. You're the one who went the ad hominem route by comparing someone to a sheep. Once you need to resort to logical fallacies, then you've lost the argument because you've essentially destroyed your own credibility.

    By your own admission, you do not play Standard, and yet you're here criticizing a card being played in the Standard format. The only real conclusion I can draw from that is that you like needlessly riling people so that you can laugh at them for not comprehending your brilliance.

    We're here saying that Reckoner is a good card in the format that we play. You're trying to argue that it's not a good card because it's not being played in other formats. Night and day, much?


    So I don't have just as much right saying it sucks in the format I play? For the record I said don't be a sheep. Not that he was a sheep. HE proved that later. As to the argument winning doesn't matter. Descent is what matters. Deviation from the 15 plus pages of mindless agreement about yet another standard card that has skyrocketed in value yet shows no substance beyond said format. And I'm not criticizing it being played in standard I'm critical of the think behind spending so much money on a card that is only usable in standard. I've made the same argument against GoST. They're paper tigers which are by and large propped up by a designed format where they are good because WOTC tilted the format in their favor. As for credibility, dude its a forum. There is no credibility here, nothing that matters a damn anyway. And yeah I hope the mod found it funny, I certainly asked him about it. And I'm not arguing that its not seeing play in other formats, I'm saying it flat out won't. Of course that doesn't mean folks won't try it. Ultimately, in a 3 and four turn format it just doesn't do enough.
    "The only real conclusion I can draw from that is that you like needlessly riling people so that you can laugh at them for not comprehending your brilliance."
    Maybe, though I think brilliance should probably have some quotations around it.
    Sorry for the jumbledness of my response. So many points so little time...

    Quote from calvinw
    The smart standard player gets great value while having fun, not lose 90% of their investment every year. Let me recap what I and probably many others here do:

    1) Pick up undervalued standard playable cards when a new set comes out, stuff you need for your deck anyway: Deathrite shaman, Boros Reckoner, Ash zealot, Hellrider, restoration angel, silverblade paladin, falkenrath aristocrat, olivia voldaren. Or pick cards that will inevitably go up a lot in a year (clifftop retreat, scars fastlands). The same thing literally happens every year. Middle set cards explode in value, 2-3$ manabases from last year's block reach 15$.

    2) Have fun playing them for around 18 months.

    3) Trade them in or sell them 6 months before they rotate while they are at their peak value. Double, triple or even more than what you initially paid for them.

    There is very little risk in buying standard only playable cards when the prices cool (like for return to ravnica right now) as long as you get rid of them a while before rotation. Falkenrath Aristocrat? Terrible card for eternal formats, so why bother right? Except they went as low as 4$, and went as high as 25$. Same thing with Reckoner.

    4) Do the same thing with the current block.

    If you do this, standard is a format that gives the player back a lot more than they invested. Those that have picked up on Boros Reckoner's standard playability and picked em up while they were cheap are well rewarded, unlike those who shun standard and choose to pass up on getting expensive cards for cheap.

    "Bad comparison. Hellkite drops and wins. This comes down and says kill me."

    Both Thundermaw and Boros Reckoner's value is strictly due to standard, but Reckoner is much more favored in mono red decks (the decks that used to run Thundermaw). Agro decks don't want to play 5 drops and 25 lands anymore. Not sure why you think you want to evaluate cards in a vacuum without knowing a format though.

    You seem to take pity on standard players who waste money on stuff that's not gonna hold value. I'm the one having pity on people who misses out on a great and popular format because they don't know when to get rid of rotating cards.

    First I wouldn't say I'm evaluating in a vacuum. More like a different gravity. I'm incredibly harsh on cards because there is so much tendency for hype on these forums. I mean you get on pro saying its standard playable and pretty soon there is this giant mass of people flocking to ebay to by said card and prices likewise go out of control.

    I wasn't aware that anyone thinks a 3/3 nonevasive(relatively) creature that requires an all color mana investment could even compete with the Hellkite. Especially after the printings of cards like abrupt decay that totally own it.

    But by and large I completely agree with you. If you manage your cards well, as in the fashion you do, I think standard seems reasonable. My only question is what happens when you have to walk away? I mean who knows when it'll happen but all of a sudden your not getting to FNM and your playing only casually. Maybe you only have one store in your area and it gets closed down or you find yourself in a relationship etc. etc. And the whole cycle of keeping your standard cards in check gets thrown out the window. Now maybe you get back to it after a rotation or two or maybe its three or four or five years. You dust of your cards and you find someplace to play and all of a sudden the things that had value, have it no longer. This is purely a hypothetical and in my case I was just kinda like oh well. Move on. I had the income to reinvest and the cards that lost value or fell by the wayside because of power creep now just sit in a binder with fond memories.

    For the life of me I can't figure out why everybody here is thinking I hate standard. I don't. I am just super aware that is a fast changing format and whats good now most likely won't be in a couple of months, let alone a year and a half when the newest stuff rotates.
    Last edited by TK-421: 2/14/2013 1:57:40 PM
  • #273
    Quote from damagecase »
    First I wouldn't say I'm evaluating in a vacuum. More like a different gravity. I'm incredibly harsh on cards because there is so much tendency for hype on these forums. I mean you get on pro saying its standard playable and pretty soon there is this giant mass of people flocking to ebay to by said card and prices likewise go out of control.

    I wasn't aware that anyone thinks a 3/3 nonevasive(relatively) creature that requires an all color mana investment could even compete with the Hellkite. Especially after the printings of cards like abrupt decay that totally own it.


    Boros Reckoner is pretty damn good in a deck that is built on Mountains or Plains (or some combination of the two), is aggressive, and wants to curve out on 3. He'll deal 6 damage on t5 and nobody ever said you couldn't play Thunderlips and Reckoner in the same deck. His "nonevasiveness" is pretty damn good since you can choose to put him on defense and kill a Swagtusk or just turn that ****er sideways and jam damage down your opponent's throat. And saying that he dies to removal is probably the lamest argument against any creature. So what if Abrupt Decay, Terminus, Oblivion Ring, and Supreme Verdict kill him. Those cards kill everything else too!

    Quote from damagecase »
    But by and large I completely agree with you. If you manage your cards well, as in the fashion you do, I think standard seems reasonable. My only question is what happens when you have to walk away? I mean who knows when it'll happen but all of a sudden your not getting to FNM and your playing only casually. Maybe you only have one store in your area and it gets closed down or you find yourself in a relationship etc. etc. And the whole cycle of keeping your standard cards in check gets thrown out the window. Now maybe you get back to it after a rotation or two or maybe its three or four or five years. You dust of your cards and you find someplace to play and all of a sudden the things that had value, have it no longer. This is purely a hypothetical and in my case I was just kinda like oh well. Move on. I had the income to reinvest and the cards that lost value or fell by the wayside because of power creep now just sit in a binder with fond memories.

    For the life of me I can't figure out why everybody here is thinking I hate standard. I don't. I am just super aware that is a fast changing format and whats good now most likely won't be in a couple of months, let alone a year and a half when the newest stuff rotates.


    Calm your tits, dude. All cards have a home somewhere. That's why EDH/Commander is a format (and a damn fun one too). However, I don't think that's the problem. I think you're the problem. Since when do you care about how other people spend their money? Since when does whatever the majority of Standard players do affect you? Who the **** are you to judge other people on what they buy in a format you don't play? The "hype" on Boros Reckoner has no impact on your life at all. It. Does. Not. If somebody is perfectly happy spending $25 on a card that they want for their deck, then who are you to call them a "sheep?" Never mind that you don't know a good card when you see one; but that's really not the point. Instead of you calling the majority out, all you've done is make yourself look stupid. You've reduced yourself to name calling and flaming, and as a result you received an infraction.

    Face it, this is a fight you cannot win. You have no horse in this race.

    When a horde of Magic players are begging for people to take their money in exchange for an "overhyped" piece of cardboard, be glad. Not only does this stimulate the economy, but it also ensures that this game we all love will never die.
  • #274
    A 3 power 3 drop on turn 3 is SIGNICANTLY better than a 5 power 5 drop on turn 7+; if you actually played RDW in standard, that much would be obvious.

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  • #275
    Quote from zemanjaski
    A 3 power 3 drop on turn 3 is SIGNICANTLY better than a 5 power 5 drop on turn 7+; if you actually played RDW in standard, that much would be obvious.


    He doesn't, though.

    He doesn't play with the card.

    He doesn't play against the card.

    He doesn't even play the format the card is popular in.

    He literally could not be less qualified to rate the card unless he didn't know how to play the game at all.
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    Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
  • #276
    Quote from calvinw
    The smart standard player gets great value while having fun, not lose 90% of their investment every year. Let me recap what I and probably many others here do:

    1) Pick up undervalued standard playable cards when a new set comes out, stuff you need for your deck anyway: Deathrite shaman, Boros Reckoner, Ash zealot, Hellrider, restoration angel, silverblade paladin, falkenrath aristocrat, olivia voldaren. Or pick cards that will inevitably go up a lot in a year (clifftop retreat, scars fastlands). The same thing literally happens every year. Middle set cards explode in value, 2-3$ manabases from last year's block reach 15$.

    2) Have fun playing them for around 18 months.

    3) Trade them in or sell them 6 months before they rotate while they are at their peak value. Double, triple or even more than what you initially paid for them.

    There is very little risk in buying standard only playable cards when the prices cool (like for return to ravnica right now) as long as you get rid of them a while before rotation. Falkenrath Aristocrat? Terrible card for eternal formats, so why bother right? Except they went as low as 4$, and went as high as 25$. Same thing with Reckoner.

    4) Do the same thing with the current block.

    If you do this, standard is a format that gives the player back a lot more than they invested. Those that have picked up on Boros Reckoner's standard playability and picked em up while they were cheap are well rewarded, unlike those who shun standard and choose to pass up on getting expensive cards for cheap.

    "Bad comparison. Hellkite drops and wins. This comes down and says kill me."

    Both Thundermaw and Boros Reckoner's value is strictly due to standard, but Reckoner is much more favored in mono red decks (the decks that used to run Thundermaw). Agro decks don't want to play 5 drops and 25 lands anymore. Not sure why you think you want to evaluate cards in a vacuum without knowing a format though.

    You seem to take pity on standard players who waste money on stuff that's not gonna hold value. I'm the one having pity on people who misses out on a great and popular format because they don't know when to get rid of rotating cards.


    This is pretty much exactly what I do. I try to find cards that look fun for my deck that are cheap, and if others recognize their value and they rise, I sell them off. Like the Elesh Norn I picked up for 6 bucks and sold for $20, and the Craterhoof Behemoths I picked up for 50 cents and sold for $10, or the two Hellriders I bought for $3 and sold for $8, etc etc
    Last edited by LnGrrrR: 2/14/2013 8:54:24 AM
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  • #277
    Quote from damagecase
    So I don't have just as much right saying it sucks in the format I play? For the record I said don't be a sheep. Not that he was a sheep. HE proved that later. As to the argument winning doesn't matter. Descent is what matters. Deviation from the 15 plus pages of mindless agreement about yet another standard card that has skyrocketed in value yet shows no substance beyond said format. And I'm not criticizing it being played in standard I'm critical of the think behind spending so much money on a card that is only usable in standard. I've made the same argument against GoST. They're paper tigers which are by and large propped up by a designed format where they are good because WOTC tilted the format in their favor. As for credibility, dude its a forum. There is no credibility here, nothing that matters a damn anyway. And yeah I hope the mod found it funny, I certainly asked him about it. And I'm not arguing that its not seeing play in other formats, I'm saying it flat out won't. Of course that doesn't mean folks won't try it. Ultimately, in a 3 and four turn format it just doesn't do enough.
    "The only real conclusion I can draw from that is that you like needlessly riling people so that you can laugh at them for not comprehending your brilliance."
    Maybe, though I think brilliance should probably have some quotations around it.
    Sorry for the jumbledness of my response. So many points so little time...


    Let's examine your "points."

    "For the record I said don't be a sheep. Not that he was a sheep."
    Really? Let's take a look back through your own responses in this thread.

    "By the way though I called YOU a sheep, not standard players in general."
    That's from one of your responses to redthirst one page back. Do try to at least stay consistent within your own argument.

    "He proved that later."
    Ah, a strawman fallacy. Or blaming the victim. I haven't decided.

    "Descent is what matters."
    Well, this discussion certainly has gone downhill since you joined it.

    "And I'm not criticizing it being played in standard I'm critical of the think behind spending so much money on a card that is only usable in standard."
    Your prognostication skills are truly the wonder of the known world if you can judge the impact of a card that's been played for less than one month.

    "As for credibility, dude its a forum. There is no credibility here, nothing that matters a damn anyway."
    The credibility of your argument. If you wish to persuade people, then attacking them shows that you're more interesting in winning the argument and not concerned with the validity of your statements. Otherwise, why should I even listen to your dissenting opinion?

    "Ultimately, in a 3 and four turn format it just doesn't do enough."
    If you even bothered to ask, this is why I don't play the eternal formats. I like interactive games. I like the changing nature of Standard where experimentation with new things is often rewarded.

    "Sorry for the jumbledness of my response. So many points so little time."
    Which matters not at all in a written format of communication. One of the many advantages of writing is that it affords us the time to craft our responses to the best of our ability. The only limitations to doing so are the intent behind the communication and the skill of the communicator.

    I'm not even going to touch on the many grammatical mistakes scattered through your shoddy word salad of a response.

    R Searing Seneschal of Salvation R



    Cogito, ergo incendo.
  • #278
    Wow there's a whole flock here now. LOL...Kidding...

    But seriously why are you guys so incredibly opposed to me posting my opinion? Seriously I won't let you shout me down. Do you all have so much invest in the success of this that my mere descent to your obvious dogma is sooo incredibly threatening...lol.

    And windstrider:

    Point 1: I called him a sheep after allowing an opportunity to prove otherwise.
    Point 2: yes everybody's the victim. I know your kind.
    Point 3: am I getting to ya am I getting to ya am I gettng to ya....
    Point 4: And tell me me how many creatures that shoot up to $25 hold even close to that value in the long term (which mind you is the point I've been making all along.) I can think of a couple like goyf and bob and well...yeah Reckoner is close to that/sarcasm...
    Point 5: The cards strengths and weakness should stand on their own and they make my argument for me. When a card is fetching the amount this is and is on par with abilities to uncommon creatures seeing play in modern, people in standard should be taking note.
    Point 6: Frankly I don't care why you don't play my formats, why do you care about my opinion of yours?
    Point 7: Last point, I'm really trying not to just say..... You know what I'd get banned for saying that cause I can't even make a sheep joke on here with out getting warned. Lol.

    Quote from zemanjaski
    A 3 power 3 drop on turn 3 is SIGNICANTLY better than a 5 power 5 drop on turn 7+; if you actually played RDW in standard, that much would be obvious.


    Well its become pretty obvious that I don't play standard nor do I evaluate cards for standard.

    Hey man if your happy I'm happy.
    Last edited by TK-421: 2/14/2013 1:59:23 PM
  • #279
    The fact that you think calling people sheep is valid in any discussion should be reason enough for people to ridicule you into irrelevancy. Reckoner's the type of card that makes smart people money. That and it's just good.
    Quote from zemanjaski
    Red is the thinking man's colour.

    LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.

    Quote from photodyer
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    Quote from redthirst
    Wisdom, thy name is Kincey.
  • #280
    Quote from redthirst
    He doesn't, though.

    He doesn't play with the card.

    He doesn't play against the card.

    He doesn't even play the format the card is popular in.

    He literally could not be less qualified to rate the card unless he didn't know how to play the game at all.


    Your saying that I need to play said card to able to evaluate said card correct? Well I have no reckoners and have no intention of getting any but it trades reasonably well with uncommons I play in modern. That said, most red decks would be rather dealing optimal damage on turn 3, not dropping a guy that says swing into me please so I have value. The problem with evaluating cards when you only play standard is the entire format is manipulated and controlled by WOTC. Which I guess is fine and certainly can be fun but it can also be very deceptive. GoST is really similar to this guy in that he was initially great but has begun to slide and he'll continue to slide because there was/is very little weak creature removal in standard right now (Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm, Infest and the like.) Now he does have a couple homes eternally, which reckoner may find eventually as well, but GoST is no where the powerful card it was. Now with reckoner, yes he should be powerful in standard but its not because he's such an awesome creature but rather the environment is such that if you can get something to stick, it can be a bear to remove. Move into an eternal format and all of a sudden there is great removal everywhere, heavier fast creatures, somewhat playable counter magic etc and he just becomes another dude to swing with but outside of some combo, or new tech he's just another guy.

    And yeah the sheep thing was a joke. No malicious intent.

    The fact that you think calling people sheep is valid in any discussion should be reason enough for people to ridicule you into irrelevancy. Reckoner's the type of card that makes smart people money. That and it's just good.


    Smart people preying off of dumb people is my point. I don't like predators.
    Last edited by TK-421: 2/14/2013 1:59:55 PM
  • #281
    Quote from damagecase
    Wow there's a whole flock here now. LOL...Kidding...

    But seriously why are you guys so incredibly opposed to me posting my opinion? Seriously I won't let you shout me down. Do you all have so much invest in the success of this that my mere descent to your obvious dogma is sooo incredibly threatening...lol.

    And windstrider:

    Point 1: I called him a sheep after allowing an opportunity to prove otherwise.
    Point 2: yes everybody's the victim. I know your kind.
    Point 3: am I getting to ya am I getting to ya am I gettng to ya....
    Point 4: And tell me me how many creatures that shoot up to $25 hold even close to that value in the long term (which mind you is the point I've been making all along.) I can think of a couple like goyf and bob and well...yeah Reckoner is close to that/sarcasm...
    Point 5: The cards strengths and weakness should stand on their own and they make my argument for me. When a card is fetching the amount this is and is on par with abilities to uncommon creatures seeing play in modern, people in standard should be taking note.
    Point 6: Frankly I don't care why you don't play my formats, why do you care about my opinion of yours?
    Point 7: Last point, I'm really trying not to just say..... You know what I'd get banned for saying that cause I can't even make a sheep joke on here with out getting warned. Lol.


    We're opposed to you posting your opinion because your opinion is completely invalid. You admit that you have no experience with the card in question or even with the format it's being played in - so what, exactly, makes your opinion relevant?

    You're like a blind guy weighing in on a painting and wondering why no one takes him seriously.

    1. No, you called me a sheep in your first post to me.
    "Paying $25 for a card that has a year and a half shelf life is asinine. And the only reason standard and limited are so popular is because it is the only way WOTC makes money you sheep."
    Feel free to verify your "facts" before you post - it's not hard and it keeps you from looking foolish. Of course, I don't know why you'd start now...

    3. More quality posting.

    4. No one has argued with you that the price won't come down. Not once. We've argued that you have no business calling the card crap when you are completely unqualified to do so. You've said nothing to refute that.

    6. No one cares about your opinion of Standard. We don't. Especially if it's as baseless as your opinion of anything else.

    Quote from damagecase
    Your saying that I need to play said card to able to evaluate said card correct? Well I have no reckoners and have no intention of getting any but it trades reasonably well with uncommons I play in modern. That said, most red decks would be rather dealing optimal damage on turn 3, not dropping a guy that says swing into me please so I have value. The problem with evaluating cards when you only play standard is the entire format is manipulated and controlled by WOTC. Which I guess is fine and certainly can be fun but it can also be very deceptive. GoST is really similar to this guy in that he was initially great but has begun to slide and he'll continue to slide because there was/is very little weak creature removal in standard right now (Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm, Infest and the like.) Now he does have a couple homes eternally, which reckoner may find eventually as well, but GoST is no where the powerful card it was. Now with reckoner, yes he should be powerful in standard but its not because he's such an awesome creature but rather the environment is such that if you can get something to stick, it can be a bear to remove. Move into an eternal format and all of a sudden there is great removal everywhere, heavier fast creatures, somewhat playable counter magic etc and he just becomes another dude to swing with but outside of some combo, or new tech he's just another guy.

    And yeah the sheep thing was a joke. No malicious intent.


    I'm saying that you need to play the card or against the card or, at least, have some idea of the meta it's played in to be able to pass judgment on that card.

    You've done none of that.

    You are unqualified in every conceivable way to evaluate the card - your opinion in this matter is meaningless.
    Last edited by TK-421: 2/14/2013 2:00:41 PM
    "Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
    —Jaya Ballard, task mage

    Quote from Dechs Kaison
    redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

    Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

    Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
  • #282
    Quote from damagecase
    Your saying that I need to play said card to able to evaluate said card correct? Well I have no reckoners and have no intention of getting any but it trades reasonably well with uncommons I play in modern. That said, most red decks would be rather dealing optimal damage on turn 3, not dropping a guy that says swing into me please so I have value. The problem with evaluating cards when you only play standard is the entire format is manipulated and controlled by WOTC. Which I guess is fine and certainly can be fun but it can also be very deceptive. GoST is really similar to this guy in that he was initially great but has begun to slide and he'll continue to slide because there was/is very little weak creature removal in standard right now (Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm, Infest and the like.) Now he does have a couple homes eternally, which reckoner may find eventually as well, but GoST is no where the powerful card it was. Now with reckoner, yes he should be powerful in standard but its not because he's such an awesome creature but rather the environment is such that if you can get something to stick, it can be a bear to remove. Move into an eternal format and all of a sudden there is great removal everywhere, heavier fast creatures, somewhat playable counter magic etc and he just becomes another dude to swing with but outside of some combo, or new tech he's just another guy.

    And you think Modern isn't manipulated and controlled by WOTC?! Man, you are seriously lacking in the intelligence department.> And not to mention you have this holier than thou attitude because you play Modern. Get over it.

    Modern is WOTC's little baby at the moment. They're nurturing it and designing for it since they have no control over Legacy and Vintage (Remember the one time they tried to control Legacy and made Mental Misstep? Yeah, they learned their lesson there.) They're even making Modern Masters so they can bring more players into the format and to control prices a little bit better.

    I play every format except Vintage (for obvious reasons) and you don't see me ragging on any Standard players or Legacy players. If anything, the Standard players you insult now may become your Modern opponents since they may hold onto their current cards and in the future will want to play with them. Give people some credit. I'm pretty sure they'll realize there are some key differences in each format.

    And about GoST ~ good card is good. Even in Modern.
    Quote from damagecase
    And yeah the sheep thing was a joke. No malicious intent.

    Suuuuure it was. I'll bet the only person that laughed was you. As you typed it.
    Quote from damagecase »
    Smart people preying off of dumb people is my point. I don't like predators.


    It's how the world works. Deal with it. Do you honestly think that's not the case with politicians and bankers?

    Please don't attack other users. -TK
    Last edited by TK-421: 2/14/2013 1:54:41 PM
  • #283
    The thing is you guys are in fact analyzing it in a vacuum. I'm doing something more akin to sabermetrics. There really isn't enough evidence of in game situations yet even if you are playing him because he's like a month old so I'm looking at what we have as fact and that is a 3/3 for three colored mana with a combat ability and a kind of retaliation ability. To me it looks like something that has a huge target for removal on its forehead and has no way of avoiding it. And any deck that plays him won't help him avoid it because white isn't really into protecting things any more and red never did.

    With regards to the sheep thing. Your right. Apologies.

    Quote from Khaospawn
    And you think Modern isn't manipulated and controlled by WOTC?! Man, you are seriously lacking in the intelligence department. And not to mention you have this holier than thou attitude because you play Modern. Get over it.

    Modern is WOTC's little baby at the moment. They're nurturing it and designing for it since they have no control over Legacy and Vintage (Remember the one time they tried to control Legacy and made Mental Misstep? Yeah, they learned their lesson there.) They're even making Modern Masters so they can bring more players into the format and to control prices a little bit better.

    I play every format except Vintage (for obvious reasons) and you don't see me ragging on any Standard players or Legacy players. If anything, the Standard players you insult now may become your Modern opponents since they may hold onto their current cards and in the future will want to play with them. Give people some credit. I'm pretty sure they'll realize there are some key differences in each format.

    And about GoST ~ good card is good. Even in Modern.

    Suuuuure it was. I'll bet the only person that laughed was you. As you typed it.


    It's how the world works. Deal with it. Do you honestly think that's not the case with politicians and bankers?


    Ok where's his flame warning. He just called me stupid in a really nice way. Wow.
    Sure WOTC manipulates modern. Just remember if your reckoner does to good it'll get banned....
    And why am I getting the whole my format is better than yours schtick. Because I don't play standard that automatically implies that I feel it is inferior? I've never said that or even thought that.

    "It's how the world works. Deal with it. Do you honestly think that's not the case with politicians and bankers?"

    And that is suppose to make it ok, right?
    Last edited by TK-421: 2/14/2013 2:01:37 PM
  • #284
    Quote from damagecase
    The thing is you guys are in fact analyzing it in a vacuum. I'm doing something more akin to sabermetrics. There really isn't enough evidence of in game situations yet even if you are playing him because he's like a month old so I'm looking at what we have as fact and that is a 3/3 for three colored mana with a combat ability and a kind of retaliation ability. To me it looks like something that has a huge target for removal on its forehead and has no way of avoiding it. And any deck that plays him won't help him avoid it because white isn't really into protecting things any more and red never did.

    With regards to the sheep thing. Your right. Apologies.


    What you just described you're doing - that's the very definition of analyzing in a vacuum. You're looking at the card with no regard to the enviroment he's being played in (the Standard meta).

    The month or weeks or whatever that we've been actually playtesting the guy? That's a month more experience than you have. So if you're arguing that we don't have enough evidence after only a month playing with it to accurately evaluate the card, then what makes you think you can when you don't even have that?
    "Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
    —Jaya Ballard, task mage

    Quote from Dechs Kaison
    redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.

    Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.

    Great guy to have around? Hell yes.
  • #286
    Quote from damagecase »
    Ok where's his flame warning. He just called me stupid in a really nice way. Wow.


    What, are we in second grade now?

    It's called "tact." Wink

    I know, tact isn't something a Red Mage is known for, but hey, I hang with some Blue Mages from time to time.
    Quote from damagecase »
    Sure WOTC manipulates modern. Just remember if your reckoner does to good it'll get banned....
    And why am I getting the whole my format is better than yours schtick. Because I don't play standard that automatically implies that I feel it is inferior? I've never said that or even thought that.


    You act like Modern is the end-all, be-all. That's why you're insulting Standard players over Boros Reckoner. You don't even play Standard. You've made baseless assumptions on the playability of a card you know nothing about. And then you get your little girl panties in a wad because of its current price and call people sheep because people just don't see things your way. And why should they? You've brought nothing to the table. You've provided NOTHING to this forum except a few pages of argument. An argument that I'm seriously over because it's going in circles now.

    We're all here to discuss cards/strategy/and evaluations. Constructively. You've done nothing but spew diarrhea from your fingertips as you've typed ignorant assessment after ignorant assessment.

    I think you'd probably be a better player and/or person if you would reserve judgment and assessment until you've learned all the facts and have actually, y'know, played with the cards.

    Good day, sir.
  • #287
    Quote from damagecase
    The thing is you guys are in fact analyzing it in a vacuum. I'm doing something more akin to sabermetrics. There really isn't enough evidence of in game situations yet even if you are playing him because he's like a month old so I'm looking at what we have as fact and that is a 3/3 for three colored mana with a combat ability and a kind of retaliation ability. To me it looks like something that has a huge target for removal on its forehead and has no way of avoiding it. And any deck that plays him won't help him avoid it because white isn't really into protecting things any more and red never did.

    With regards to the sheep thing. Your right. Apologies.


    Let's look at him in total.
    One of the few 3 drops that kills a full out Tarmo. The others tend to have deathtouch and are black or green.
    For actual creatures, it is very close to being "unblockable" in the sense that anything played and put infront of it dies. Chump blockers still get deal damage to their owners. For Red, getting your creature through is crazy good. For White, it's the upside of the weenie horde.

    For splash Green, it can get enchanted +2/+0 and trample. Forcing you to take 5 a turn. Last I checked that's a good clock.

    It kills ground pounders such a titans.

    Boros Charm loves the guy. Especially on turn 4 with a Madcap skills first. Drop your fourth land, cast Madcap Skills. leaving RW open. Take 6 or block with enough toughness to deal with the first strike. Don't block with two creatures and possibly take 12.

    He was a game winner at pre-release. I'd play "better" creatures to get him to stick. Then he'd clear house.

    All on his own, he stops the assualt while whittling down your opponent.
    Last edited by ColonelCoo: 2/14/2013 1:03:38 PM
  • #288
    Quote from Khaospawn
    What, are we in second grade now?

    It's called "tact." Wink

    I know, tact isn't something a Red Mage is known for, but hey, I hang with some Blue Mages from time to time.


    1You act like Modern is the end-all, be-all. That's why you're insulting Standard players over Boros Reckoner. You don't even play Standard. You've made baseless assumptions on the playability of a card you know nothing about. 2And then you get your little girl panties in a wad because of its current price and call people sheep because people just don't see things your way. And why should they? You've brought nothing to the table. You've provided NOTHING to this forum except a few pages of argument. 3 An argument that I'm seriously over because it's going in circles now.

    4 We're all here to discuss cards/strategy/and evaluations. Constructively. You've done nothing but spew diarrhea from your fingertips as you've typed ignorant assessment after ignorant assessment.

    I think you'd probably be a better player and/or person if you would reserve judgment and assessment until you've learned all the facts and have actually, y'know, played with the cards.

    Good day, sir.


    1)Sorry if its interpreted that way but modern is the price of admission. It itself is a damned annoying thing but if its usage there is tenuous, well I'm not holding onto any hope for it.
    2) If I were a girl that would be sexual harassment. Careful your losing your tact...
    3) The only reason the argument is going in circles is because the points I've made (finally, it takes me awhile to articulate the obvious) have only been met with anger and spite to my methodology of presenting them. That and why its good in standard and that in and of itself justifies a ridiculous price tag. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the explanation for standard
    4) That is a sexy metaphor right there. Seriously can I use that?

    You think your frustrated? Imagine how I feel.
    Last edited by damagecase: 2/14/2013 1:28:26 PM
  • #289
    Quote from damagecase
    Wow there's a whole flock here now. LOL...Kidding...

    But seriously why are you guys so incredibly opposed to me posting my opinion? Seriously I won't let you shout me down. Do you all have so much invest in the success of this that my mere descent to your obvious dogma is sooo incredibly threatening...lol.

    And windstrider:

    Point 1: I called him a sheep after allowing an opportunity to prove otherwise.
    Point 2: yes everybody's the victim. I know your kind.
    Point 3: am I getting to ya am I getting to ya am I gettng to ya....
    Point 4: And tell me me how many creatures that shoot up to $25 hold even close to that value in the long term (which mind you is the point I've been making all along.) I can think of a couple like goyf and bob and well...yeah Reckoner is close to that/sarcasm...
    Point 5: The cards strengths and weakness should stand on their own and they make my argument for me. When a card is fetching the amount this is and is on par with abilities to uncommon creatures seeing play in modern, people in standard should be taking note.
    Point 6: Frankly I don't care why you don't play my formats, why do you care about my opinion of yours?
    Point 7: Last point, I'm really trying not to just say..... You know what I'd get banned for saying that cause I can't even make a sheep joke on here with out getting warned. Lol.


    Stating your opinion is fine. (See Point 5 for more clarification.) You could have easily written "Please don't buy cards when they spike like this. Reckoner is decent in Standard, but it has yet to prove itself in the more eternal formats." Ta-da. You had to ruin it by insulting people and using logical fallacies to support your points.

    Point 1. You're too generous [with your shoddy statements]. You asserted that you had not called him a sheep. I provided proof that you had. You like moving the goalposts around.

    Point 2. My kind? Pray, please tell me more about my kind. I wish I could tag you as Mr. Strawman.

    Point 3. Nope. The word you're looking for is "dissent." Using the wrong word multiple times is tiresome, especially if you're using it in an infantile and inane attempt at being humorous. Please stop slaughtering the written language you are attempting to use.

    Point 4. Why should its price spike matter to its use in Standard? Lightning Bolt is $.80. Must mean it's bad in Modern. Plus, false equivalence fallacy. Reckoner was just printed. Part of Bob's price is his availability.

    Point 5. Reworded to "I can't provide proof of my statements, but I'll continue making them anyway." You made the original statement that the card was mediocre. The onus of proving that statement thus falls on you. This is otherwise known as a begging the question fallacy: asserting the truth of an unproven statement. When several others refuted your original statement, you moved the goalposts (arguing off the point fallacy) by then stating it was stupid for people to buy the card at inflated prices when it wouldn't hold value in the other formats. Then you proceeded to insult people by calling them sheep.

    Point 6. Because you're here telling Standard players how bad a card is in the format that they play while admitting that you don't play Standard? Did you lose track of the conversation already? Do try to keep up, old boy.

    Point 7. No idea. Bestiality is legal in 16 states, so have at it.

    R Searing Seneschal of Salvation R



    Cogito, ergo incendo.
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