Long story short, is now the best time to sell my Reckoners? It's just hit £23 on madhouse, no idea if it will keep rising
for me this is the higher as it will ever get. this card looks like thragtusk for me: very good against some decks, and ok against others, but there are some archetypes that are just good against it. and the cost s more restrictive, so there are not that many decks that can play with reckoner. in my opinion, a very strong card, but this price is too high.
1)No dismissing a $5 card that has been hyped up to $25 is smart. Format not withstanding. But whatever.
2)Actually when the most popular format is constantly changing and has a new super card every three weeks...Think about it. Two weeks from now there'll be another OMG its amazing card and folks will forget about this.
3) Really? By the way though I called YOU a sheep, not standard players in general. And perhaps I'm not "enlightened" as you say but I dman sure know a dud when i see one. To this "when you make comments like us "being led to slaughter". What is that even suppose to mean? Do you think WoTC just fattening us Standard players up for sacrifice?" What precisely do you think rotation is? Or haven't you watched a $200 or $300 investment become a quarter of what you paid before? Perhaps I'm being a bit hyperbolic but I think that qualifies.
But hey, wolf's gotta eat right?
1. No, dismissing it is not smart. It's seeing play and that's driving price up. Like I said before - you're not some enlightened minority - you're just wrong.
2. The format is fast-paced and constantly changing - that doesn't make good cards bad. This card is extremely well-positioned in the current Standard meta and whether you like it or not - that's the format that matters most when determining card prices. No one cares if you like Standard or not.
3. You obviously don't know a dud when you see one because anyone who's played with or against this card to any extent can tell you that it's a star. You've said yourself that you have no experience with it so why on Earth would you bother to argue that it's not worth $xx.xx?
You're talking out of your ass.
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Sounds like someone's taking this a little personally. Also, I recommend you put on your peril-sensitive sunglasses, as you're probably gonna see some red text show up for that. (EDIT: Nath'd by the mod.)
Boros Reckoner is a good card. It may not stand out in eternal formats, but it fits a certain niche in Standard, and does so very, very well. It is seeing a lot of play -- and rightly so -- and is rising to a price level commensurate with its demand. Rare card + limelight = high price. That's just basic economics, irrespective of whatever format we're discussing.
In your tone, I detect some annoyance at the general price of Standard staples. I get that, and I completely agree with you. If you had asked me fifteen years ago whether I thought an in-print rare would fetch $25, I would have called you crazy. But now that's not uncommon, is it?
I want to address one minor point in your comments. You noted that Standard players often invest a lot of money into Standard cards, only for those cards to de-value rapidly and extensively after format rotation. Your tone conveyed a sense that the player is "victimized" by WotC in these cases. I need to point that out as a fallacy; WotC doesn't receive any money at all when someone buys a card on the secondary market, and doesn't stand to gain anything by our collections falling in value when a set rotates. When it comes to the cost of Standard cards, there are exactly two groups who share the blame: singles retailers (both online and brick-and-mortar) for pricing cards so damn high, and players for being willing to spend such egregious sums on Magic cards. To some degree, we do this to ourselves.
I don't think the player is victimized by WOTC, I think they are victimized by themselves.
Folks need to wise up. The mtg market is a microcosm of our inability to evaluate anythings value properly.
But it twas a mighty fine flame....lol.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
3. Calling other people sheep doesn't make you look like some enlightened minority - it makes you look like some douchy hipster. Honestly, how would you feel about someone who says that you're a sheep for playing "established" formats because real players play formats that they make up themselves? That's roughly how ridiculous you look to me when you call Standard players sheep... especially when you make comments like us "being led to slaughter". What is that even suppose to mean? Do you think WoTC just fattening us Standard players up for sacrifice?
I for one welcome our pagan worshipping overlords.
Boros Reckoner went down from $11 to $9 yesterday on MTGO. Now its back up to $10....
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Your argumentative skills are breathtaking in their complexity.
As for Reckoner, in the current Standard, it is a powerhouse of a card. If the price seems ridiculous, then just remember that there are people willing to pay it to get the card. I don't play eternal formats, so I don't care if it's good there or not.
For comparison, Thundermaw Hellkite was once $10. It was seen as a good card, but it wasn't a necessary card. Now it's over $30, and it's everywhere.
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The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
Bad comparison. Hellkite drops and wins. This comes down and says kill me. Hellkite might find a home in modern, maybe even legacy, this likely won't.
You know, I made points and I was respectful of the everybody else's love of Standard on here and all I hear is people saying "I don't care about eternal formats...blah blah blah."
And I think standard is fun as well its just not sustainable. As for the Reckoner I never ever ever EVER said it was unplayable or bad in standard. People immediately assume that because I come out and make a point of saying that I don't play standard for said reasons, I am saying standard is bad. I'm trying to put my point across relative to me an my experiences which necessarily comes from first, the formats I play and second the long term card value of said card, which by in part or total will be determined by the formats I play. Standard prices are determined by really nothing more than the whim of the mtg community. I.E. people talk up a card like Reckoner on as forum and maybe a pro or two something nice about it and BAMMM $20 rare. Most of the time anything good said about a new card is predicated on its playability in standard. Which, now this needs to be fully understood, has absolutely no bearing what so ever its value post rotation.
Further I don't think you should evaluate my argument skills based on a blatant flame which was intentional and at least I found it quite funny.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Bad comparison. Hellkite drops and wins. This comes down and says kill me. Hellkite might find a home in modern, maybe even legacy, this likely won't.
You know, I made points and I was respectful of the everybody else's love of Standard on here and all I hear is people saying "I don't care about eternal formats...blah blah blah."
And I think standard is fun as well its just not sustainable. As for the Reckoner I never ever ever EVER said it was unplayable or bad in standard. People immediately assume that because I come out and make a point of saying that I don't play standard for said reasons, I am saying standard is bad. I'm trying to put my point across relative to me an my experiences which necessarily comes from first, the formats I play and second the long term card value of said card, which by in part or total will be determined by the formats I play. Standard prices are determined by really nothing more than the whim of the mtg community. I.E. people talk up a card like Reckoner on as forum and maybe a pro or two something nice about it and BAMMM $20 rare. Most of the time anything good said about a new card is predicated on its playability in standard. Which, now this needs to be fully understood, has absolutely no bearing what so ever its value post rotation.
Further I don't think you should evaluate my argument skills based on a blatant flame which was intentional and at least I found it quite funny.
At least someone found it funny. Do you find yourself laughing at your own jokes quite often? It looks like the mod found it hilarious though.
As for your argumentative skills, I certainly can't evaluate them based on anything else you've written. You're the one who went the ad hominem route by comparing someone to a sheep. Once you need to resort to logical fallacies, then you've lost the argument because you've essentially destroyed your own credibility.
By your own admission, you do not play Standard, and yet you're here criticizing a card being played in the Standard format. The only real conclusion I can draw from that is that you like needlessly riling people so that you can laugh at them for not comprehending your brilliance.
We're here saying that Reckoner is a good card in the format that we play. You're trying to argue that it's not a good card because it's not being played in other formats. Night and day, much?
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The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
I don't think the player is victimized by WOTC, I think they are victimized by themselves.
Folks need to wise up. The mtg market is a microcosm of our inability to evaluate anythings value properly.
The smart standard player gets great value while having fun, not lose 90% of their investment every year. Let me recap what I and probably many others here do:
3) Trade them in or sell them 6 months before they rotate while they are at their peak value. Double, triple or even more than what you initially paid for them.
There is very little risk in buying standard only playable cards when the prices cool (like for return to ravnica right now) as long as you get rid of them a while before rotation. Falkenrath Aristocrat? Terrible card for eternal formats, so why bother right? Except they went as low as 4$, and went as high as 25$. Same thing with Reckoner.
4) Do the same thing with the current block.
If you do this, standard is a format that gives the player back a lot more than they invested. Those that have picked up on Boros Reckoner's standard playability and picked em up while they were cheap are well rewarded, unlike those who shun standard and choose to pass up on getting expensive cards for cheap.
"Bad comparison. Hellkite drops and wins. This comes down and says kill me."
Both Thundermaw and Boros Reckoner's value is strictly due to standard, but Reckoner is much more favored in mono red decks (the decks that used to run Thundermaw). Agro decks don't want to play 5 drops and 25 lands anymore. Not sure why you think you want to evaluate cards in a vacuum without knowing a format though.
You seem to take pity on standard players who waste money on stuff that's not gonna hold value. I'm the one having pity on people who misses out on a great and popular format because they don't know when to get rid of rotating cards.
This card will be the worst rare in RTR and less remembered than skaab ruibator in three months. It struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls, even in limited.
That its not simply "not good enough for competitive", or underpowered. But that this is offensively bad, the real stinker tier.
Still, my best evaluation is that its approximately on the same power level as a 4/4 for 4 vanilla beater.
At least someone found it funny. Do you find yourself laughing at your own jokes quite often? It looks like the mod found it hilarious though.
As for your argumentative skills, I certainly can't evaluate them based on anything else you've written. You're the one who went the ad hominem route by comparing someone to a sheep. Once you need to resort to logical fallacies, then you've lost the argument because you've essentially destroyed your own credibility.
By your own admission, you do not play Standard, and yet you're here criticizing a card being played in the Standard format. The only real conclusion I can draw from that is that you like needlessly riling people so that you can laugh at them for not comprehending your brilliance.
We're here saying that Reckoner is a good card in the format that we play. You're trying to argue that it's not a good card because it's not being played in other formats. Night and day, much?
So I don't have just as much right saying it sucks in the format I play? For the record I said don't be a sheep. Not that he was a sheep. HE proved that later. As to the argument winning doesn't matter. Descent is what matters. Deviation from the 15 plus pages of mindless agreement about yet another standard card that has skyrocketed in value yet shows no substance beyond said format. And I'm not criticizing it being played in standard I'm critical of the think behind spending so much money on a card that is only usable in standard. I've made the same argument against GoST. They're paper tigers which are by and large propped up by a designed format where they are good because WOTC tilted the format in their favor. As for credibility, dude its a forum. There is no credibility here, nothing that matters a damn anyway. And yeah I hope the mod found it funny, I certainly asked him about it. And I'm not arguing that its not seeing play in other formats, I'm saying it flat out won't. Of course that doesn't mean folks won't try it. Ultimately, in a 3 and four turn format it just doesn't do enough.
"The only real conclusion I can draw from that is that you like needlessly riling people so that you can laugh at them for not comprehending your brilliance."
Maybe, though I think brilliance should probably have some quotations around it.
Sorry for the jumbledness of my response. So many points so little time...
The smart standard player gets great value while having fun, not lose 90% of their investment every year. Let me recap what I and probably many others here do:
3) Trade them in or sell them 6 months before they rotate while they are at their peak value. Double, triple or even more than what you initially paid for them.
There is very little risk in buying standard only playable cards when the prices cool (like for return to ravnica right now) as long as you get rid of them a while before rotation. Falkenrath Aristocrat? Terrible card for eternal formats, so why bother right? Except they went as low as 4$, and went as high as 25$. Same thing with Reckoner.
4) Do the same thing with the current block.
If you do this, standard is a format that gives the player back a lot more than they invested. Those that have picked up on Boros Reckoner's standard playability and picked em up while they were cheap are well rewarded, unlike those who shun standard and choose to pass up on getting expensive cards for cheap.
"Bad comparison. Hellkite drops and wins. This comes down and says kill me."
Both Thundermaw and Boros Reckoner's value is strictly due to standard, but Reckoner is much more favored in mono red decks (the decks that used to run Thundermaw). Agro decks don't want to play 5 drops and 25 lands anymore. Not sure why you think you want to evaluate cards in a vacuum without knowing a format though.
You seem to take pity on standard players who waste money on stuff that's not gonna hold value. I'm the one having pity on people who misses out on a great and popular format because they don't know when to get rid of rotating cards.
First I wouldn't say I'm evaluating in a vacuum. More like a different gravity. I'm incredibly harsh on cards because there is so much tendency for hype on these forums. I mean you get on pro saying its standard playable and pretty soon there is this giant mass of people flocking to ebay to by said card and prices likewise go out of control.
I wasn't aware that anyone thinks a 3/3 nonevasive(relatively) creature that requires an all color mana investment could even compete with the Hellkite. Especially after the printings of cards like abrupt decay that totally own it.
But by and large I completely agree with you. If you manage your cards well, as in the fashion you do, I think standard seems reasonable. My only question is what happens when you have to walk away? I mean who knows when it'll happen but all of a sudden your not getting to FNM and your playing only casually. Maybe you only have one store in your area and it gets closed down or you find yourself in a relationship etc. etc. And the whole cycle of keeping your standard cards in check gets thrown out the window. Now maybe you get back to it after a rotation or two or maybe its three or four or five years. You dust of your cards and you find someplace to play and all of a sudden the things that had value, have it no longer. This is purely a hypothetical and in my case I was just kinda like oh well. Move on. I had the income to reinvest and the cards that lost value or fell by the wayside because of power creep now just sit in a binder with fond memories.
For the life of me I can't figure out why everybody here is thinking I hate standard. I don't. I am just super aware that is a fast changing format and whats good now most likely won't be in a couple of months, let alone a year and a half when the newest stuff rotates.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
First I wouldn't say I'm evaluating in a vacuum. More like a different gravity. I'm incredibly harsh on cards because there is so much tendency for hype on these forums. I mean you get on pro saying its standard playable and pretty soon there is this giant mass of people flocking to ebay to by said card and prices likewise go out of control.
I wasn't aware that anyone thinks a 3/3 nonevasive(relatively) creature that requires an all color mana investment could even compete with the Hellkite. Especially after the printings of cards like abrupt decay that totally own it.
Boros Reckoner is pretty damn good in a deck that is built on Mountains or Plains (or some combination of the two), is aggressive, and wants to curve out on 3. He'll deal 6 damage on t5 and nobody ever said you couldn't play Thunderlips and Reckoner in the same deck. His "nonevasiveness" is pretty damn good since you can choose to put him on defense and kill a Swagtusk or just turn that ****er sideways and jam damage down your opponent's throat. And saying that he dies to removal is probably the lamest argument against any creature. So what if Abrupt Decay, Terminus, Oblivion Ring, and Supreme Verdict kill him. Those cards kill everything else too!
Quote from damagecase »
But by and large I completely agree with you. If you manage your cards well, as in the fashion you do, I think standard seems reasonable. My only question is what happens when you have to walk away? I mean who knows when it'll happen but all of a sudden your not getting to FNM and your playing only casually. Maybe you only have one store in your area and it gets closed down or you find yourself in a relationship etc. etc. And the whole cycle of keeping your standard cards in check gets thrown out the window. Now maybe you get back to it after a rotation or two or maybe its three or four or five years. You dust of your cards and you find someplace to play and all of a sudden the things that had value, have it no longer. This is purely a hypothetical and in my case I was just kinda like oh well. Move on. I had the income to reinvest and the cards that lost value or fell by the wayside because of power creep now just sit in a binder with fond memories.
For the life of me I can't figure out why everybody here is thinking I hate standard. I don't. I am just super aware that is a fast changing format and whats good now most likely won't be in a couple of months, let alone a year and a half when the newest stuff rotates.
Calm your tits, dude. All cards have a home somewhere. That's why EDH/Commander is a format (and a damn fun one too). However, I don't think that's the problem. I think you're the problem. Since when do you care about how other people spend their money? Since when does whatever the majority of Standard players do affect you? Who the **** are you to judge other people on what they buy in a format you don't play? The "hype" on Boros Reckoner has no impact on your life at all. It. Does. Not. If somebody is perfectly happy spending $25 on a card that they want for their deck, then who are you to call them a "sheep?" Never mind that you don't know a good card when you see one; but that's really not the point. Instead of you calling the majority out, all you've done is make yourself look stupid. You've reduced yourself to name calling and flaming, and as a result you received an infraction.
Face it, this is a fight you cannot win. You have no horse in this race.
When a horde of Magic players are begging for people to take their money in exchange for an "overhyped" piece of cardboard, be glad. Not only does this stimulate the economy, but it also ensures that this game we all love will never die.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
The smart standard player gets great value while having fun, not lose 90% of their investment every year. Let me recap what I and probably many others here do:
3) Trade them in or sell them 6 months before they rotate while they are at their peak value. Double, triple or even more than what you initially paid for them.
There is very little risk in buying standard only playable cards when the prices cool (like for return to ravnica right now) as long as you get rid of them a while before rotation. Falkenrath Aristocrat? Terrible card for eternal formats, so why bother right? Except they went as low as 4$, and went as high as 25$. Same thing with Reckoner.
4) Do the same thing with the current block.
If you do this, standard is a format that gives the player back a lot more than they invested. Those that have picked up on Boros Reckoner's standard playability and picked em up while they were cheap are well rewarded, unlike those who shun standard and choose to pass up on getting expensive cards for cheap.
"Bad comparison. Hellkite drops and wins. This comes down and says kill me."
Both Thundermaw and Boros Reckoner's value is strictly due to standard, but Reckoner is much more favored in mono red decks (the decks that used to run Thundermaw). Agro decks don't want to play 5 drops and 25 lands anymore. Not sure why you think you want to evaluate cards in a vacuum without knowing a format though.
You seem to take pity on standard players who waste money on stuff that's not gonna hold value. I'm the one having pity on people who misses out on a great and popular format because they don't know when to get rid of rotating cards.
This is pretty much exactly what I do. I try to find cards that look fun for my deck that are cheap, and if others recognize their value and they rise, I sell them off. Like the Elesh Norn I picked up for 6 bucks and sold for $20, and the Craterhoof Behemoths I picked up for 50 cents and sold for $10, or the two Hellriders I bought for $3 and sold for $8, etc etc
So I don't have just as much right saying it sucks in the format I play? For the record I said don't be a sheep. Not that he was a sheep. HE proved that later. As to the argument winning doesn't matter. Descent is what matters. Deviation from the 15 plus pages of mindless agreement about yet another standard card that has skyrocketed in value yet shows no substance beyond said format. And I'm not criticizing it being played in standard I'm critical of the think behind spending so much money on a card that is only usable in standard. I've made the same argument against GoST. They're paper tigers which are by and large propped up by a designed format where they are good because WOTC tilted the format in their favor. As for credibility, dude its a forum. There is no credibility here, nothing that matters a damn anyway. And yeah I hope the mod found it funny, I certainly asked him about it. And I'm not arguing that its not seeing play in other formats, I'm saying it flat out won't. Of course that doesn't mean folks won't try it. Ultimately, in a 3 and four turn format it just doesn't do enough.
"The only real conclusion I can draw from that is that you like needlessly riling people so that you can laugh at them for not comprehending your brilliance."
Maybe, though I think brilliance should probably have some quotations around it.
Sorry for the jumbledness of my response. So many points so little time...
Let's examine your "points."
"For the record I said don't be a sheep. Not that he was a sheep."
Really? Let's take a look back through your own responses in this thread.
"By the way though I called YOU a sheep, not standard players in general."
That's from one of your responses to redthirst one page back. Do try to at least stay consistent within your own argument.
"He proved that later."
Ah, a strawman fallacy. Or blaming the victim. I haven't decided.
"Descent is what matters."
Well, this discussion certainly has gone downhill since you joined it.
"And I'm not criticizing it being played in standard I'm critical of the think behind spending so much money on a card that is only usable in standard."
Your prognostication skills are truly the wonder of the known world if you can judge the impact of a card that's been played for less than one month.
"As for credibility, dude its a forum. There is no credibility here, nothing that matters a damn anyway."
The credibility of your argument. If you wish to persuade people, then attacking them shows that you're more interesting in winning the argument and not concerned with the validity of your statements. Otherwise, why should I even listen to your dissenting opinion?
"Ultimately, in a 3 and four turn format it just doesn't do enough."
If you even bothered to ask, this is why I don't play the eternal formats. I like interactive games. I like the changing nature of Standard where experimentation with new things is often rewarded.
"Sorry for the jumbledness of my response. So many points so little time."
Which matters not at all in a written format of communication. One of the many advantages of writing is that it affords us the time to craft our responses to the best of our ability. The only limitations to doing so are the intent behind the communication and the skill of the communicator.
I'm not even going to touch on the many grammatical mistakes scattered through your shoddy word salad of a response.
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The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
Wow there's a whole flock here now. LOL...Kidding...
But seriously why are you guys so incredibly opposed to me posting my opinion? Seriously I won't let you shout me down. Do you all have so much invest in the success of this that my mere descent to your obvious dogma is sooo incredibly threatening...lol.
And windstrider:
Point 1: I called him a sheep after allowing an opportunity to prove otherwise.
Point 2: yes everybody's the victim. I know your kind.
Point 3: am I getting to ya am I getting to ya am I gettng to ya....
Point 4: And tell me me how many creatures that shoot up to $25 hold even close to that value in the long term (which mind you is the point I've been making all along.) I can think of a couple like goyf and bob and well...yeah Reckoner is close to that/sarcasm...
Point 5: The cards strengths and weakness should stand on their own and they make my argument for me. When a card is fetching the amount this is and is on par with abilities to uncommon creatures seeing play in modern, people in standard should be taking note.
Point 6: Frankly I don't care why you don't play my formats, why do you care about my opinion of yours?
Point 7: Last point, I'm really trying not to just say..... You know what I'd get banned for saying that cause I can't even make a sheep joke on here with out getting warned. Lol.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
The fact that you think calling people sheep is valid in any discussion should be reason enough for people to ridicule you into irrelevancy. Reckoner's the type of card that makes smart people money. That and it's just good.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
He doesn't even play the format the card is popular in.
He literally could not be less qualified to rate the card unless he didn't know how to play the game at all.
Your saying that I need to play said card to able to evaluate said card correct? Well I have no reckoners and have no intention of getting any but it trades reasonably well with uncommons I play in modern. That said, most red decks would be rather dealing optimal damage on turn 3, not dropping a guy that says swing into me please so I have value. The problem with evaluating cards when you only play standard is the entire format is manipulated and controlled by WOTC. Which I guess is fine and certainly can be fun but it can also be very deceptive. GoST is really similar to this guy in that he was initially great but has begun to slide and he'll continue to slide because there was/is very little weak creature removal in standard right now (Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm, Infest and the like.) Now he does have a couple homes eternally, which reckoner may find eventually as well, but GoST is no where the powerful card it was. Now with reckoner, yes he should be powerful in standard but its not because he's such an awesome creature but rather the environment is such that if you can get something to stick, it can be a bear to remove. Move into an eternal format and all of a sudden there is great removal everywhere, heavier fast creatures, somewhat playable counter magic etc and he just becomes another dude to swing with but outside of some combo, or new tech he's just another guy.
And yeah the sheep thing was a joke. No malicious intent.
The fact that you think calling people sheep is valid in any discussion should be reason enough for people to ridicule you into irrelevancy. Reckoner's the type of card that makes smart people money. That and it's just good.
Smart people preying off of dumb people is my point. I don't like predators.
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Wow there's a whole flock here now. LOL...Kidding...
But seriously why are you guys so incredibly opposed to me posting my opinion? Seriously I won't let you shout me down. Do you all have so much invest in the success of this that my mere descent to your obvious dogma is sooo incredibly threatening...lol.
And windstrider:
Point 1: I called him a sheep after allowing an opportunity to prove otherwise.
Point 2: yes everybody's the victim. I know your kind.
Point 3: am I getting to ya am I getting to ya am I gettng to ya....
Point 4: And tell me me how many creatures that shoot up to $25 hold even close to that value in the long term (which mind you is the point I've been making all along.) I can think of a couple like goyf and bob and well...yeah Reckoner is close to that/sarcasm...
Point 5: The cards strengths and weakness should stand on their own and they make my argument for me. When a card is fetching the amount this is and is on par with abilities to uncommon creatures seeing play in modern, people in standard should be taking note.
Point 6: Frankly I don't care why you don't play my formats, why do you care about my opinion of yours?
Point 7: Last point, I'm really trying not to just say..... You know what I'd get banned for saying that cause I can't even make a sheep joke on here with out getting warned. Lol.
We're opposed to you posting your opinion because your opinion is completely invalid. You admit that you have no experience with the card in question or even with the format it's being played in - so what, exactly, makes your opinion relevant?
You're like a blind guy weighing in on a painting and wondering why no one takes him seriously.
1. No, you called me a sheep in your first post to me.
"Paying $25 for a card that has a year and a half shelf life is asinine. And the only reason standard and limited are so popular is because it is the only way WOTC makes money you sheep."
Feel free to verify your "facts" before you post - it's not hard and it keeps you from looking foolish. Of course, I don't know why you'd start now...
3. More quality posting.
4. No one has argued with you that the price won't come down. Not once. We've argued that you have no business calling the card crap when you are completely unqualified to do so. You've said nothing to refute that.
6. No one cares about your opinion of Standard. We don't. Especially if it's as baseless as your opinion of anything else.
Your saying that I need to play said card to able to evaluate said card correct? Well I have no reckoners and have no intention of getting any but it trades reasonably well with uncommons I play in modern. That said, most red decks would be rather dealing optimal damage on turn 3, not dropping a guy that says swing into me please so I have value. The problem with evaluating cards when you only play standard is the entire format is manipulated and controlled by WOTC. Which I guess is fine and certainly can be fun but it can also be very deceptive. GoST is really similar to this guy in that he was initially great but has begun to slide and he'll continue to slide because there was/is very little weak creature removal in standard right now (Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm, Infest and the like.) Now he does have a couple homes eternally, which reckoner may find eventually as well, but GoST is no where the powerful card it was. Now with reckoner, yes he should be powerful in standard but its not because he's such an awesome creature but rather the environment is such that if you can get something to stick, it can be a bear to remove. Move into an eternal format and all of a sudden there is great removal everywhere, heavier fast creatures, somewhat playable counter magic etc and he just becomes another dude to swing with but outside of some combo, or new tech he's just another guy.
And yeah the sheep thing was a joke. No malicious intent.
I'm saying that you need to play the card or against the card or, at least, have some idea of the meta it's played in to be able to pass judgment on that card.
You've done none of that.
You are unqualified in every conceivable way to evaluate the card - your opinion in this matter is meaningless.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Your saying that I need to play said card to able to evaluate said card correct? Well I have no reckoners and have no intention of getting any but it trades reasonably well with uncommons I play in modern. That said, most red decks would be rather dealing optimal damage on turn 3, not dropping a guy that says swing into me please so I have value. The problem with evaluating cards when you only play standard is the entire format is manipulated and controlled by WOTC. Which I guess is fine and certainly can be fun but it can also be very deceptive. GoST is really similar to this guy in that he was initially great but has begun to slide and he'll continue to slide because there was/is very little weak creature removal in standard right now (Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm, Infest and the like.) Now he does have a couple homes eternally, which reckoner may find eventually as well, but GoST is no where the powerful card it was. Now with reckoner, yes he should be powerful in standard but its not because he's such an awesome creature but rather the environment is such that if you can get something to stick, it can be a bear to remove. Move into an eternal format and all of a sudden there is great removal everywhere, heavier fast creatures, somewhat playable counter magic etc and he just becomes another dude to swing with but outside of some combo, or new tech he's just another guy.
And you think Modern isn't manipulated and controlled by WOTC?! <Man, you are seriously lacking in the intelligence department.> And not to mention you have this holier than thou attitude because you play Modern. Get over it.
Modern is WOTC's little baby at the moment. They're nurturing it and designing for it since they have no control over Legacy and Vintage (Remember the one time they tried to control Legacy and made Mental Misstep? Yeah, they learned their lesson there.) They're even making Modern Masters so they can bring more players into the format and to control prices a little bit better.
I play every format except Vintage (for obvious reasons) and you don't see me ragging on any Standard players or Legacy players. If anything, the Standard players you insult now may become your Modern opponents since they may hold onto their current cards and in the future will want to play with them. Give people some credit. I'm pretty sure they'll realize there are some key differences in each format.
And about GoST ~ good card is good. Even in Modern.
The thing is you guys are in fact analyzing it in a vacuum. I'm doing something more akin to sabermetrics. There really isn't enough evidence of in game situations yet even if you are playing him because he's like a month old so I'm looking at what we have as fact and that is a 3/3 for three colored mana with a combat ability and a kind of retaliation ability. To me it looks like something that has a huge target for removal on its forehead and has no way of avoiding it. And any deck that plays him won't help him avoid it because white isn't really into protecting things any more and red never did.
With regards to the sheep thing. Your right. Apologies.
And you think Modern isn't manipulated and controlled by WOTC?! Man, you are seriously lacking in the intelligence department. And not to mention you have this holier than thou attitude because you play Modern. Get over it.
Modern is WOTC's little baby at the moment. They're nurturing it and designing for it since they have no control over Legacy and Vintage (Remember the one time they tried to control Legacy and made Mental Misstep? Yeah, they learned their lesson there.) They're even making Modern Masters so they can bring more players into the format and to control prices a little bit better.
I play every format except Vintage (for obvious reasons) and you don't see me ragging on any Standard players or Legacy players. If anything, the Standard players you insult now may become your Modern opponents since they may hold onto their current cards and in the future will want to play with them. Give people some credit. I'm pretty sure they'll realize there are some key differences in each format.
And about GoST ~ good card is good. Even in Modern.
Suuuuure it was. I'll bet the only person that laughed was you. As you typed it.
It's how the world works. Deal with it. Do you honestly think that's not the case with politicians and bankers?
Ok where's his flame warning. He just called me stupid in a really nice way. Wow.
Sure WOTC manipulates modern. Just remember if your reckoner does to good it'll get banned....
And why am I getting the whole my format is better than yours schtick. Because I don't play standard that automatically implies that I feel it is inferior? I've never said that or even thought that.
"It's how the world works. Deal with it. Do you honestly think that's not the case with politicians and bankers?"
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
The thing is you guys are in fact analyzing it in a vacuum. I'm doing something more akin to sabermetrics. There really isn't enough evidence of in game situations yet even if you are playing him because he's like a month old so I'm looking at what we have as fact and that is a 3/3 for three colored mana with a combat ability and a kind of retaliation ability. To me it looks like something that has a huge target for removal on its forehead and has no way of avoiding it. And any deck that plays him won't help him avoid it because white isn't really into protecting things any more and red never did.
With regards to the sheep thing. Your right. Apologies.
What you just described you're doing - that's the very definition of analyzing in a vacuum. You're looking at the card with no regard to the enviroment he's being played in (the Standard meta).
The month or weeks or whatever that we've been actually playtesting the guy? That's a month more experience than you have. So if you're arguing that we don't have enough evidence after only a month playing with it to accurately evaluate the card, then what makes you think you can when you don't even have that?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Ok where's his flame warning. He just called me stupid in a really nice way. Wow.
What, are we in second grade now?
It's called "tact."
I know, tact isn't something a Red Mage is known for, but hey, I hang with some Blue Mages from time to time.
Quote from damagecase »
Sure WOTC manipulates modern. Just remember if your reckoner does to good it'll get banned....
And why am I getting the whole my format is better than yours schtick. Because I don't play standard that automatically implies that I feel it is inferior? I've never said that or even thought that.
You act like Modern is the end-all, be-all. That's why you're insulting Standard players over Boros Reckoner. You don't even play Standard. You've made baseless assumptions on the playability of a card you know nothing about. And then you get your little girl panties in a wad because of its current price and call people sheep because people just don't see things your way. And why should they? You've brought nothing to the table. You've provided NOTHING to this forum except a few pages of argument. An argument that I'm seriously over because it's going in circles now.
We're all here to discuss cards/strategy/and evaluations. Constructively. You've done nothing but spew diarrhea from your fingertips as you've typed ignorant assessment after ignorant assessment.
I think you'd probably be a better player and/or person if you would reserve judgment and assessment until you've learned all the facts and have actually, y'know, played with the cards.
I know, tact isn't something a Red Mage is known for, but hey, I hang with some Blue Mages from time to time.
1You act like Modern is the end-all, be-all. That's why you're insulting Standard players over Boros Reckoner. You don't even play Standard. You've made baseless assumptions on the playability of a card you know nothing about. 2And then you get your little girl panties in a wad because of its current price and call people sheep because people just don't see things your way. And why should they? You've brought nothing to the table. You've provided NOTHING to this forum except a few pages of argument. 3 An argument that I'm seriously over because it's going in circles now.
4 We're all here to discuss cards/strategy/and evaluations. Constructively. You've done nothing but spew diarrhea from your fingertips as you've typed ignorant assessment after ignorant assessment.
I think you'd probably be a better player and/or person if you would reserve judgment and assessment until you've learned all the facts and have actually, y'know, played with the cards.
Good day, sir.
1)Sorry if its interpreted that way but modern is the price of admission. It itself is a damned annoying thing but if its usage there is tenuous, well I'm not holding onto any hope for it.
2) If I were a girl that would be sexual harassment. Careful your losing your tact...
3) The only reason the argument is going in circles is because the points I've made (finally, it takes me awhile to articulate the obvious) have only been met with anger and spite to my methodology of presenting them. That and why its good in standard and that in and of itself justifies a ridiculous price tag. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the explanation for standard
4) That is a sexy metaphor right there. Seriously can I use that?
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
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for me this is the higher as it will ever get. this card looks like thragtusk for me: very good against some decks, and ok against others, but there are some archetypes that are just good against it. and the cost s more restrictive, so there are not that many decks that can play with reckoner. in my opinion, a very strong card, but this price is too high.
1. No, dismissing it is not smart. It's seeing play and that's driving price up. Like I said before - you're not some enlightened minority - you're just wrong.
2. The format is fast-paced and constantly changing - that doesn't make good cards bad. This card is extremely well-positioned in the current Standard meta and whether you like it or not - that's the format that matters most when determining card prices. No one cares if you like Standard or not.
3. You obviously don't know a dud when you see one because anyone who's played with or against this card to any extent can tell you that it's a star. You've said yourself that you have no experience with it so why on Earth would you bother to argue that it's not worth $xx.xx?
You're talking out of your ass.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Anybody else hear that?
Infraction issued for Flaming, Trolling or Other Forms of Misbehavior. ~ Boros_Archangel
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Sounds like someone's taking this a little personally. Also, I recommend you put on your peril-sensitive sunglasses, as you're probably gonna see some red text show up for that. (EDIT: Nath'd by the mod.)
Boros Reckoner is a good card. It may not stand out in eternal formats, but it fits a certain niche in Standard, and does so very, very well. It is seeing a lot of play -- and rightly so -- and is rising to a price level commensurate with its demand. Rare card + limelight = high price. That's just basic economics, irrespective of whatever format we're discussing.
In your tone, I detect some annoyance at the general price of Standard staples. I get that, and I completely agree with you. If you had asked me fifteen years ago whether I thought an in-print rare would fetch $25, I would have called you crazy. But now that's not uncommon, is it?
I want to address one minor point in your comments. You noted that Standard players often invest a lot of money into Standard cards, only for those cards to de-value rapidly and extensively after format rotation. Your tone conveyed a sense that the player is "victimized" by WotC in these cases. I need to point that out as a fallacy; WotC doesn't receive any money at all when someone buys a card on the secondary market, and doesn't stand to gain anything by our collections falling in value when a set rotates. When it comes to the cost of Standard cards, there are exactly two groups who share the blame: singles retailers (both online and brick-and-mortar) for pricing cards so damn high, and players for being willing to spend such egregious sums on Magic cards. To some degree, we do this to ourselves.
EVOLVE ALL THE THINGS!!!
Folks need to wise up. The mtg market is a microcosm of our inability to evaluate anythings value properly.
But it twas a mighty fine flame....lol.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I for one welcome our pagan worshipping overlords.
Boros Reckoner went down from $11 to $9 yesterday on MTGO. Now its back up to $10....
Modern:
Something new every week
Legacy:
Something new everyweek
Your argumentative skills are breathtaking in their complexity.
As for Reckoner, in the current Standard, it is a powerhouse of a card. If the price seems ridiculous, then just remember that there are people willing to pay it to get the card. I don't play eternal formats, so I don't care if it's good there or not.
For comparison, Thundermaw Hellkite was once $10. It was seen as a good card, but it wasn't a necessary card. Now it's over $30, and it's everywhere.
The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
You know, I made points and I was respectful of the everybody else's love of Standard on here and all I hear is people saying "I don't care about eternal formats...blah blah blah."
And I think standard is fun as well its just not sustainable. As for the Reckoner I never ever ever EVER said it was unplayable or bad in standard. People immediately assume that because I come out and make a point of saying that I don't play standard for said reasons, I am saying standard is bad. I'm trying to put my point across relative to me an my experiences which necessarily comes from first, the formats I play and second the long term card value of said card, which by in part or total will be determined by the formats I play. Standard prices are determined by really nothing more than the whim of the mtg community. I.E. people talk up a card like Reckoner on as forum and maybe a pro or two something nice about it and BAMMM $20 rare. Most of the time anything good said about a new card is predicated on its playability in standard. Which, now this needs to be fully understood, has absolutely no bearing what so ever its value post rotation.
Further I don't think you should evaluate my argument skills based on a blatant flame which was intentional and at least I found it quite funny.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
At least someone found it funny. Do you find yourself laughing at your own jokes quite often? It looks like the mod found it hilarious though.
As for your argumentative skills, I certainly can't evaluate them based on anything else you've written. You're the one who went the ad hominem route by comparing someone to a sheep. Once you need to resort to logical fallacies, then you've lost the argument because you've essentially destroyed your own credibility.
By your own admission, you do not play Standard, and yet you're here criticizing a card being played in the Standard format. The only real conclusion I can draw from that is that you like needlessly riling people so that you can laugh at them for not comprehending your brilliance.
We're here saying that Reckoner is a good card in the format that we play. You're trying to argue that it's not a good card because it's not being played in other formats. Night and day, much?
The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
The smart standard player gets great value while having fun, not lose 90% of their investment every year. Let me recap what I and probably many others here do:
1) Pick up undervalued standard playable cards when a new set comes out, stuff you need for your deck anyway: Deathrite shaman, Boros Reckoner, Ash zealot, Hellrider, restoration angel, silverblade paladin, falkenrath aristocrat, olivia voldaren. Or pick cards that will inevitably go up a lot in a year (clifftop retreat, scars fastlands). The same thing literally happens every year. Middle set cards explode in value, 2-3$ manabases from last year's block reach 15$.
2) Have fun playing them for around 18 months.
3) Trade them in or sell them 6 months before they rotate while they are at their peak value. Double, triple or even more than what you initially paid for them.
There is very little risk in buying standard only playable cards when the prices cool (like for return to ravnica right now) as long as you get rid of them a while before rotation. Falkenrath Aristocrat? Terrible card for eternal formats, so why bother right? Except they went as low as 4$, and went as high as 25$. Same thing with Reckoner.
4) Do the same thing with the current block.
If you do this, standard is a format that gives the player back a lot more than they invested. Those that have picked up on Boros Reckoner's standard playability and picked em up while they were cheap are well rewarded, unlike those who shun standard and choose to pass up on getting expensive cards for cheap.
"Bad comparison. Hellkite drops and wins. This comes down and says kill me."
Both Thundermaw and Boros Reckoner's value is strictly due to standard, but Reckoner is much more favored in mono red decks (the decks that used to run Thundermaw). Agro decks don't want to play 5 drops and 25 lands anymore. Not sure why you think you want to evaluate cards in a vacuum without knowing a format though.
You seem to take pity on standard players who waste money on stuff that's not gonna hold value. I'm the one having pity on people who misses out on a great and popular format because they don't know when to get rid of rotating cards.
So I don't have just as much right saying it sucks in the format I play? For the record I said don't be a sheep. Not that he was a sheep. HE proved that later. As to the argument winning doesn't matter. Descent is what matters. Deviation from the 15 plus pages of mindless agreement about yet another standard card that has skyrocketed in value yet shows no substance beyond said format. And I'm not criticizing it being played in standard I'm critical of the think behind spending so much money on a card that is only usable in standard. I've made the same argument against GoST. They're paper tigers which are by and large propped up by a designed format where they are good because WOTC tilted the format in their favor. As for credibility, dude its a forum. There is no credibility here, nothing that matters a damn anyway. And yeah I hope the mod found it funny, I certainly asked him about it. And I'm not arguing that its not seeing play in other formats, I'm saying it flat out won't. Of course that doesn't mean folks won't try it. Ultimately, in a 3 and four turn format it just doesn't do enough.
"The only real conclusion I can draw from that is that you like needlessly riling people so that you can laugh at them for not comprehending your brilliance."
Maybe, though I think brilliance should probably have some quotations around it.
Sorry for the jumbledness of my response. So many points so little time...
First I wouldn't say I'm evaluating in a vacuum. More like a different gravity. I'm incredibly harsh on cards because there is so much tendency for hype on these forums. I mean you get on pro saying its standard playable and pretty soon there is this giant mass of people flocking to ebay to by said card and prices likewise go out of control.
I wasn't aware that anyone thinks a 3/3 nonevasive(relatively) creature that requires an all color mana investment could even compete with the Hellkite. Especially after the printings of cards like abrupt decay that totally own it.
But by and large I completely agree with you. If you manage your cards well, as in the fashion you do, I think standard seems reasonable. My only question is what happens when you have to walk away? I mean who knows when it'll happen but all of a sudden your not getting to FNM and your playing only casually. Maybe you only have one store in your area and it gets closed down or you find yourself in a relationship etc. etc. And the whole cycle of keeping your standard cards in check gets thrown out the window. Now maybe you get back to it after a rotation or two or maybe its three or four or five years. You dust of your cards and you find someplace to play and all of a sudden the things that had value, have it no longer. This is purely a hypothetical and in my case I was just kinda like oh well. Move on. I had the income to reinvest and the cards that lost value or fell by the wayside because of power creep now just sit in a binder with fond memories.
For the life of me I can't figure out why everybody here is thinking I hate standard. I don't. I am just super aware that is a fast changing format and whats good now most likely won't be in a couple of months, let alone a year and a half when the newest stuff rotates.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Boros Reckoner is pretty damn good in a deck that is built on Mountains or Plains (or some combination of the two), is aggressive, and wants to curve out on 3. He'll deal 6 damage on t5 and nobody ever said you couldn't play Thunderlips and Reckoner in the same deck. His "nonevasiveness" is pretty damn good since you can choose to put him on defense and kill a Swagtusk or just turn that ****er sideways and jam damage down your opponent's throat. And saying that he dies to removal is probably the lamest argument against any creature. So what if Abrupt Decay, Terminus, Oblivion Ring, and Supreme Verdict kill him. Those cards kill everything else too!
Calm your tits, dude. All cards have a home somewhere. That's why EDH/Commander is a format (and a damn fun one too). However, I don't think that's the problem. I think you're the problem. Since when do you care about how other people spend their money? Since when does whatever the majority of Standard players do affect you? Who the **** are you to judge other people on what they buy in a format you don't play? The "hype" on Boros Reckoner has no impact on your life at all. It. Does. Not. If somebody is perfectly happy spending $25 on a card that they want for their deck, then who are you to call them a "sheep?" Never mind that you don't know a good card when you see one; but that's really not the point. Instead of you calling the majority out, all you've done is make yourself look stupid. You've reduced yourself to name calling and flaming, and as a result you received an infraction.
Face it, this is a fight you cannot win. You have no horse in this race.
When a horde of Magic players are begging for people to take their money in exchange for an "overhyped" piece of cardboard, be glad. Not only does this stimulate the economy, but it also ensures that this game we all love will never die.
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
He doesn't, though.
He doesn't play with the card.
He doesn't play against the card.
He doesn't even play the format the card is popular in.
He literally could not be less qualified to rate the card unless he didn't know how to play the game at all.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
This is pretty much exactly what I do. I try to find cards that look fun for my deck that are cheap, and if others recognize their value and they rise, I sell them off. Like the Elesh Norn I picked up for 6 bucks and sold for $20, and the Craterhoof Behemoths I picked up for 50 cents and sold for $10, or the two Hellriders I bought for $3 and sold for $8, etc etc
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Let's examine your "points."
"For the record I said don't be a sheep. Not that he was a sheep."
Really? Let's take a look back through your own responses in this thread.
"By the way though I called YOU a sheep, not standard players in general."
That's from one of your responses to redthirst one page back. Do try to at least stay consistent within your own argument.
"He proved that later."
Ah, a strawman fallacy. Or blaming the victim. I haven't decided.
"Descent is what matters."
Well, this discussion certainly has gone downhill since you joined it.
"And I'm not criticizing it being played in standard I'm critical of the think behind spending so much money on a card that is only usable in standard."
Your prognostication skills are truly the wonder of the known world if you can judge the impact of a card that's been played for less than one month.
"As for credibility, dude its a forum. There is no credibility here, nothing that matters a damn anyway."
The credibility of your argument. If you wish to persuade people, then attacking them shows that you're more interesting in winning the argument and not concerned with the validity of your statements. Otherwise, why should I even listen to your dissenting opinion?
"Ultimately, in a 3 and four turn format it just doesn't do enough."
If you even bothered to ask, this is why I don't play the eternal formats. I like interactive games. I like the changing nature of Standard where experimentation with new things is often rewarded.
"Sorry for the jumbledness of my response. So many points so little time."
Which matters not at all in a written format of communication. One of the many advantages of writing is that it affords us the time to craft our responses to the best of our ability. The only limitations to doing so are the intent behind the communication and the skill of the communicator.
I'm not even going to touch on the many grammatical mistakes scattered through your shoddy word salad of a response.
The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
But seriously why are you guys so incredibly opposed to me posting my opinion? Seriously I won't let you shout me down. Do you all have so much invest in the success of this that my mere descent to your obvious dogma is sooo incredibly threatening...lol.
And windstrider:
Point 1: I called him a sheep after allowing an opportunity to prove otherwise.
Point 2: yes everybody's the victim. I know your kind.
Point 3: am I getting to ya am I getting to ya am I gettng to ya....
Point 4: And tell me me how many creatures that shoot up to $25 hold even close to that value in the long term (which mind you is the point I've been making all along.) I can think of a couple like goyf and bob and well...yeah Reckoner is close to that/sarcasm...
Point 5: The cards strengths and weakness should stand on their own and they make my argument for me. When a card is fetching the amount this is and is on par with abilities to uncommon creatures seeing play in modern, people in standard should be taking note.
Point 6: Frankly I don't care why you don't play my formats, why do you care about my opinion of yours?
Point 7: Last point, I'm really trying not to just say..... You know what I'd get banned for saying that cause I can't even make a sheep joke on here with out getting warned. Lol.
Well its become pretty obvious that I don't play standard nor do I evaluate cards for standard.
Hey man if your happy I'm happy.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Your saying that I need to play said card to able to evaluate said card correct? Well I have no reckoners and have no intention of getting any but it trades reasonably well with uncommons I play in modern. That said, most red decks would be rather dealing optimal damage on turn 3, not dropping a guy that says swing into me please so I have value. The problem with evaluating cards when you only play standard is the entire format is manipulated and controlled by WOTC. Which I guess is fine and certainly can be fun but it can also be very deceptive. GoST is really similar to this guy in that he was initially great but has begun to slide and he'll continue to slide because there was/is very little weak creature removal in standard right now (Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm, Infest and the like.) Now he does have a couple homes eternally, which reckoner may find eventually as well, but GoST is no where the powerful card it was. Now with reckoner, yes he should be powerful in standard but its not because he's such an awesome creature but rather the environment is such that if you can get something to stick, it can be a bear to remove. Move into an eternal format and all of a sudden there is great removal everywhere, heavier fast creatures, somewhat playable counter magic etc and he just becomes another dude to swing with but outside of some combo, or new tech he's just another guy.
And yeah the sheep thing was a joke. No malicious intent.
Smart people preying off of dumb people is my point. I don't like predators.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
We're opposed to you posting your opinion because your opinion is completely invalid. You admit that you have no experience with the card in question or even with the format it's being played in - so what, exactly, makes your opinion relevant?
You're like a blind guy weighing in on a painting and wondering why no one takes him seriously.
1. No, you called me a sheep in your first post to me.
Feel free to verify your "facts" before you post - it's not hard and it keeps you from looking foolish. Of course, I don't know why you'd start now...
3. More quality posting.
4. No one has argued with you that the price won't come down. Not once. We've argued that you have no business calling the card crap when you are completely unqualified to do so. You've said nothing to refute that.
6. No one cares about your opinion of Standard. We don't. Especially if it's as baseless as your opinion of anything else.
I'm saying that you need to play the card or against the card or, at least, have some idea of the meta it's played in to be able to pass judgment on that card.
You've done none of that.
You are unqualified in every conceivable way to evaluate the card - your opinion in this matter is meaningless.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
And you think Modern isn't manipulated and controlled by WOTC?! <Man, you are seriously lacking in the intelligence department.> And not to mention you have this holier than thou attitude because you play Modern. Get over it.
Modern is WOTC's little baby at the moment. They're nurturing it and designing for it since they have no control over Legacy and Vintage (Remember the one time they tried to control Legacy and made Mental Misstep? Yeah, they learned their lesson there.) They're even making Modern Masters so they can bring more players into the format and to control prices a little bit better.
I play every format except Vintage (for obvious reasons) and you don't see me ragging on any Standard players or Legacy players. If anything, the Standard players you insult now may become your Modern opponents since they may hold onto their current cards and in the future will want to play with them. Give people some credit. I'm pretty sure they'll realize there are some key differences in each format.
And about GoST ~ good card is good. Even in Modern.
Suuuuure it was. I'll bet the only person that laughed was you. As you typed it.
It's how the world works. Deal with it. Do you honestly think that's not the case with politicians and bankers?
Please don't attack other users. -TK
With regards to the sheep thing. Your right. Apologies.
Ok where's his flame warning. He just called me stupid in a really nice way. Wow.
Sure WOTC manipulates modern. Just remember if your reckoner does to good it'll get banned....
And why am I getting the whole my format is better than yours schtick. Because I don't play standard that automatically implies that I feel it is inferior? I've never said that or even thought that.
"It's how the world works. Deal with it. Do you honestly think that's not the case with politicians and bankers?"
And that is suppose to make it ok, right?
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
What you just described you're doing - that's the very definition of analyzing in a vacuum. You're looking at the card with no regard to the enviroment he's being played in (the Standard meta).
The month or weeks or whatever that we've been actually playtesting the guy? That's a month more experience than you have. So if you're arguing that we don't have enough evidence after only a month playing with it to accurately evaluate the card, then what makes you think you can when you don't even have that?
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
What, are we in second grade now?
It's called "tact."
I know, tact isn't something a Red Mage is known for, but hey, I hang with some Blue Mages from time to time.
You act like Modern is the end-all, be-all. That's why you're insulting Standard players over Boros Reckoner. You don't even play Standard. You've made baseless assumptions on the playability of a card you know nothing about. And then you get your little girl panties in a wad because of its current price and call people sheep because people just don't see things your way. And why should they? You've brought nothing to the table. You've provided NOTHING to this forum except a few pages of argument. An argument that I'm seriously over because it's going in circles now.
We're all here to discuss cards/strategy/and evaluations. Constructively. You've done nothing but spew diarrhea from your fingertips as you've typed ignorant assessment after ignorant assessment.
I think you'd probably be a better player and/or person if you would reserve judgment and assessment until you've learned all the facts and have actually, y'know, played with the cards.
Good day, sir.
1)Sorry if its interpreted that way but modern is the price of admission. It itself is a damned annoying thing but if its usage there is tenuous, well I'm not holding onto any hope for it.
2) If I were a girl that would be sexual harassment. Careful your losing your tact...
3) The only reason the argument is going in circles is because the points I've made (finally, it takes me awhile to articulate the obvious) have only been met with anger and spite to my methodology of presenting them. That and why its good in standard and that in and of itself justifies a ridiculous price tag. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the explanation for standard
4) That is a sexy metaphor right there. Seriously can I use that?
You think your frustrated? Imagine how I feel.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.