Just for the record, this guy does not interact with the Miracle mechanic. At all. Miracles can be played when you draw them. This guy does not draw cards in the technical sense. He puts them into the hand after revealing them. If you reveal a Miracle card with him, you can't cast it for the Miracle cost. It will end up in your hand and you will have to hardcast them.
It has been mentioned several times in this thread that it indeed doesnt.
In fact, it can be quite the beater for your opponents to reveal a Terminus, taking 6, and not being able to cast it.
In a deck that runs duskmantle, I would certainly play a couple of Dimir Charms.
Someone else mentioned portent too, would be amazing if this card got printed, even though I highly doubt that will happen.
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I don't see how he can be compaired to Confidant. He cost 2 more mana one being colored, comes out 2 turns later, and gives you not card advantage what so ever. That's why Bob is one of the best 2 drops ever to be printed. Oh wait that's right hes good because he comes out on turn 2. Sure he gives you an extra card and sure he could make your opponent loose some life, but I'm pretty sure that's just win more in the decks he'd want to be in. No deck is going to win (sands edh) by giving your opponent extra cards. He does beat for 4 in the air, but he also gives your opponent extra draws increasing his chances of hitting an out to the situation you have him in. Could he be good? Possibly but chances are he's just going to be mediocre.
Interesting card, and worthy of mythic status IMO. It harkens back to a, some would say the defining card of Ravnica. It's a 4/4 flying for 4 with a complicated and hard to evaluate ability. On the one hand, it clearly isn't as good as Bob and doesn't have near the amount of potential as far as decks it can fit in. That said, I could see it being better than Bob in a certain kind of deck in a certain kind of meta. Going to play devil's advocate by outlining a best-case home for the card:
Basically, I see Duskmantle Seer as a curve-topper in the kind of aggro-control deck (likely w/delver) that preys on midrange metagames. They'll draw clunkier, more expensive spells than you which means they take more damage and can't benefit as much from the extra cards (since casting multiple spells a turn is less likely). On the other hand, you'll be drawing lots of 1 or 2-mana spells that trade lasting impact for efficiency (unsummon and the like), allowing you to make full use of the CA.
The types of decks you would prey on would often rather have a stable life total than take ~3 damage (just an estimate of the average damage taken for a midrange deck) a turn to draw an extra card on their opponents turn. Taking that much damage a turn against an opponent that has at least 4 power of flying (but likely at least 7, hello delver) and a steady stream of permission and bounce is a nightmare for midrange.
It's also worth noting that it's a black card, and black is the color of discard which helps negate the downside somewhat. I could definitely see this slotting into some kind of Grixis aggro-control list with Rakdos's Return (CMC of 2), searing spear, delver, syncopate (CMC of 1), thought scour, pike, augur, unsummon/cyclonic rift, and maybe even nighthawk (lifegain would help in tight situations and it's an insane creature to equip a pike to).
The main issue is a lack of good deck manipulation in the format, but the deck would certainly be capable of some very powerful starts w/a robust late-game (rift into rakdos's return ftw). The idea of pairing this guy's life loss with a spell that negates the downside and finishes off your opponent is compelling enough that I'll have to try it out.
I really wish people would stop comparing this guy to Bob. He is not, and never will be, Bob. No creature will be Bob. On top of that, even though a lot of words on this are the same, the role he fills is completely different from Bob's. Look at the following sentences:
Bob is there so decks that need early card draw can get early card draw.
Seer is there as a topper in low-curve aggressive decks that can break the symmetry of his ability.
Try switching the first word of those sentences. It's completely laughable. It's like evaluating Explore against Channel just because they both help you generate mana. We get it. It's not Bob. Neither is Wild Nacatl. But anyone who evaluated Bob vs. Nacatl would be laughed out of the room.
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Yeah, he's nothing like Bob at all. In terms of the symmetry and size, he's a lot closer to Conundrum Sphinx. Granted, he is a wee bit better than that thing, but still.
Yeah. Also sorry for the rant, but there's room for a ton of discussion on this card because it will be so meta-sensitive. And as it stands people are getting totally hub up on the homage part and talking in circles, which is disappointing.
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It's a card I would welcome vs control in an agro deck, and hate myself for trying to play against agro. I...don't know about this one. It seems so, so loose to rely on this card to do anything good. Shutting out a game on turn 5 by making someone take 5-7 from a clunky creature is nice, but feeding them a land or an answer...urgh. And don't even get me started on losing to your own copy of this in an agro matchup because you drew them a free burn spell and and just bolted yourself into their thundermawl...
At the same time, it has potential, so it cannot be fully discounted, as some matchups desperately need to deal with this thing. But at the same time, it's handing the game to other matchups, or at the very least turning the game into hope/pray for superior draws on the clock.
No deck is going to win (sands edh) by giving your opponent extra cards.
Haven't you seen Jace's Archivist along Jace's Erasure? I bet you haven't, but are decks running around making both players to draw a lot of cards, at the same time you are milling their decks.
After fishbowling a few games with a pretty standard u/b zombie deck that included this guy, I'm pretty sure this guy is terrible. Duskmantle Seer handed more than one game outright to my opponent. It's mortifying to flip up another of these guys and have your opponent flip up a land or bolt or something.
After fishbowling a few games with a pretty standard u/b zombie deck that included this guy, I'm pretty sure this guy is terrible. Duskmantle Seer handed more than one game outright to my opponent. It's mortifying to flip up another of these guys and have your opponent flip up a land or bolt or something.
Yes.
Now will someone please break Bloodgift Demon with the new cards... it's deserves so much more love than it's getting right now.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
After fishbowling a few games with a pretty standard u/b zombie deck that included this guy, I'm pretty sure this guy is terrible. Duskmantle Seer handed more than one game outright to my opponent. It's mortifying to flip up another of these guys and have your opponent flip up a land or bolt or something.
Maybe your deck just didn't synergize with him well enough. Duskmantle seer is not a pure control card or is he a an aggro card, but a hybrid. He fits in a an aggro/control deck from the results I've had.
My call is that he will fit best in an esper deck with 4 azorius charms for lifegain with geists, snapcasters and obzedat as a creature shell
I may as well chime in. I've talked about Duskmantle Seer in another thread, but not one dedicated to him.
The good:
The art is awesome
All abilities aside, he's a reasonable but not broken 4/4 Flyer for 4 mana. Back in the day, this would be really strong, but there are plenty of efficient flyers around 4-5 mana these days.
The bad:
Everything else.
While I appreciate that he's sort of like a Dark Confidant, he's nowhere near as good.
Giving extra options and/or card advantage to your opponent is almost never a good thing in a game of magic, so I don't know why people would think Duskmantle Seer would be good.
Yes, if your opponent is playing a crappy deck with lots of high-CC cards, it will give you the advantage... but what decks in Standard have bad curves these days? Most decks are aggro decks! I can't even imagine what a match between a Dimir deck with a Duskmantle Seer vs a solid Boros deck will be like. The Dimir deck is just going to get run over if they play Duskmantle Seer. And the same goes for zombies, RDW, g/w tokens, g/w aggro, humans decks, and a variety of other aggro decks.
A 4/4 Flyer isn't going to make up for this "drawback" either. A well-designed standard deck can easily play around this, just as many people have learned to play around Thragtusk and other annoying threats. But instead of playing against Thragtusk that doesn't help you in any way, you will gain extra cards! If Thragtusk gave your opponent extra cards, I doubt people would have played him at all.
You don't win games of magic by giving your opponent card advantage. Would you really run Howling Mine in today's metagame? Really? Please do so, I will love you for it. The added loss of life provided by Duskmantle Seer is basically irrelevant because most decks have small curves, and aggressive decks will out-race you anyway. You're actually helping them complete their deck's design goals.
In Ravnica, you never had to "make a deck around" a Dark Confidant. You just used it and won games. The fact that you have to hope your opponent is using high-CC spells (which is not going to happen in more than half of your tournament matches) to make him worthwhile is just crazy talk.
There are a few cards like Rakdos Return and stuff that can combo well with him, but again, why are we introducing combos and luck-based mechanics to make him viable? For a card like this, you want it to be good just for you. For 1 more mana, I'd play a Bloodgraft Demon easily... and even that's not getting played so what makes people think Duskmantle Seer will get played as well? Because it's a new shiny mythic? Yeah right.
What made Dark Confidant good is that his ability only worked for you. But we live in a world where most decks have low-CC cards and are very aggressive. Giving them more cards is just going to help them, and the life-loss is going to let them kill you even faster.
For the current environment, this card is terrible. I expect the price to tank very quickly once people play with this guy.
I really want to like him too, but he's just bad. Maybe when Innistrad rotates out, we can take another look at it.
Yeah, he's nothing like Bob at all. In terms of the symmetry and size, he's a lot closer to Conundrum Sphinx. Granted, he is a wee bit better than that thing, but still.
Hey now that guy with an active top or jace is actually quite good! Though thats generally the case for every creature...
Haven't you seen Jace's Archivist along Jace's Erasure? I bet you haven't, but are decks running around making both players to draw a lot of cards, at the same time you are milling their decks.
I understand that there are some kitchen table decks that do this. Sure you can do some things with Time SpiralMemory Jar and the like, but those win the turn you play them. I haven't seen Jace's Archivistalong with Jace's Erasure top 8 anything, and that's how I evaluate cards. Is it got to be good in competitive play. Frankly I don't shell out cash for cards that are not tier 1 playable, unless its for EDH and then I even have a limit on that.
It would be parity, but its not. Firstly, the cards are taken on YOUR turn, which is advantageous.
Secondly, you can build your deck around the effect (for example, with cc in mind to minimize your own life loss or with # of cards in hand for pitch effects etc) while your enemy is unable to react to the Seer from a deck construction PoV.
I've already explained that most decks in Standard are not going to be negatively affected by his "ability". It's going to help them more times than it won't. So while you might minimize your life loss from using the ability, they will be equally as non-affected by it as you are. So your opponents, without realizing it, are built around it already. Just look at what is doing well in standard. It's already compensated for it.
I also don't know what is advantageous by the cards being on your own turn. They can still draw all sorts of removal and instant spells and flash creatures to deal with your threats and play them on your turn. They will have a turn notice too, so they don't have to tap their lands on their turn.
And as long as you're taking damage and they are an aggressive deck, you're helping them. You only have 20 life. You're just making it easier for them to kill you. With a few burn spells, it won't be long before you're dead.
It's never a good idea to give your opponent more cards. The 4/4 flyer body isn't worth this drawback. Again, why not just pay 1 more mana and get a Bloodgift Demon which just benefits you and has less loss of life compared to Duskmantle Seer. Now you can put whatever you want in your deck and you only pay 1 life.
But the thing is, people can play Bloodgraft Demon now - nothing is stopping them. If people aren't playing this card now, which is actually quite a card with potential, then why would they suddenly play Duskmantle Seer? Just because it's 1 mana cheaper and it's a mythic in a new set?
This card is going to lose you the game more times than it will you the game, that is for sure. Just imagine how many decks would be improved with a Howling Mine-like effect and the answer is, "A lot of them". We don't exactly have a lot of control decks with high-CC spells in Standard right now, and with Boros coming, I don't think that will change anytime soon.
Sorry to break it to people, but this card is garbage right now and the price is going to tank. I also don't see any redeeming qualities if the environment gets a little slower either.
The first paragraph of yours makes no sense to me. How is another deck not built with a low curve with disruption and control as synergistic with this card as one that is?
But thats not the point of this guy. You dont play him for the CA, thats just a bonus.
1. What decks don't have a low curve? Even control decks have about 2/3 of the deck at 3 CMC or less. If you don't believe that, look at recent dailies.
2. Stop saying he's CA at all. He's not. There is no bonus CA. There is strict card parity. No more, no less.
Its funny to see so many people getting confused by this card, that really fits the Dimir flavor ^^
He´s neither CA nor Card parity, he´s temporal Card Advantage.
He´s only CA if your opponent has no cards left in his Library.
And he´s only Card parity if your opponent gets something at instant speed and has left enough mana open to play it during your Turn.
No. He is always card parity. You get a card. They get a card. Simple. Any attempts to say otherwise are attempts to win an argument by making up new ideas, but the fact remains: You get a card. They get a card. Card parity.
No. He is always card parity. You get a card. They get a card. Simple. Any attempts to say otherwise are attempts to win an argument by making up new ideas, but the fact remains: You get a card. They get a card. Card parity.
Read the post above you, and then rewrite your statement.
People also do not seem to understand that you force BOB's effect on your opponents, there is a reason why not every deck known to man runs bob.
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Ok if you reduce everything on who gets to pick a card from the top of his/her Library while ignoring the timing restrictions of the cards drawn, then you can say that it is card parity.
But thats a pretty narrow view wich doesn´t says anything about the evaluation of that ability.
Read the post above you, and then rewrite your statement.
People also do not seem to understand that you force BOB's effect on your opponents, there is a reason why not every deck known to man runs bob.
Why does the timing matter? What if they draw an instant to cast and you draw 2 lands? Didn't they get better "temporal card advantage" now? What if you draw one spell you can cast and one you don't have mana for, but they draw an instant? "Temporal card parity?" The draws are random, and just as likely to give your opponent an advantave as you. Who has a narrow view and poor card evaluation skills now?
As for not every deck playing Bob. I have a feeling that if Bant/Esper control could get a free Bob effect they'd do so 100% of the time.
Oh boy, you should really take a few stochastic lessons before you make such posts
First look at the scenarios you stated and think about how likely they are.
Then look at the following Scenario:
During your upkeep you get a card that you can pay (or a Land) while they get a card without instant speed or with instant speed while not having enough mana to pay it.
Then compare the likelihood between those Scenarios.
How can you be sure that one scenario is any more likely than any other with out knowing the decks and the abilities happening at random? You're looking at the best possible scenario and saying the card is good because of it without taking into account that
1. other decks may want the effect even more than you (mono red/boros)
2. may have high numbers of instants with which to punish you (bant/esper/UWR)
3. random bad luck may screw you.
You cant evaluate a card on its good qualites and ignore its bad, and that is exactly what you and Fluxje are doing.
Why does the timing matter? What if they draw an instant to cast and you draw 2 lands? Didn't they get better "temporal card advantage" now? What if you draw one spell you can cast and one you don't have mana for, but they draw an instant? "Temporal card parity?" The draws are random, and just as likely to give your opponent an advantave as you. Who has a narrow view and poor card evaluation skills now?
Timing matters, why do you think 99% of the pro's advocate being on the play instead of the draw, and why so many advocate for a different system.
As for not every deck playing Bob. I have a feeling that if Bant/Esper control could get a free Bob effect they'd do so 100% of the time.
There is no better way to respond to this than you are wrong.
How can you be sure that one scenario is any more likely than any other with out knowing the decks and the abilities happening at random? You're looking at the best possible scenario and saying the card is good because of it without taking into account that
1. other decks may want the effect even more than you (mono red/boros)
2. may have high numbers of instants with which to punish you (bant/esper/UWR)
3. random bad luck may screw you.
You cant evaluate a card on its good qualites and ignore its bad, and that is exactly what you and Fluxje are doing.
He is evaluating the odds on simple premises.
Think of this card in a tempo deck, and this card being your top end.
There is currently ONE maindeckable instant legal in standard that can kill Duskmantle.
Every flapper that is out there currently with equal or lower cmc, is beaten straight up by the P/Tof duskmantle (dont throw obscurities as rakdos or desecration demon at me).
Untapping with this means you will have most likely an attacker that they can not deal with immediately, plus you drew an extra card which allows you to use the tempo tools you have at your disposal on your turn, or hold back the plethorea of disruption/counterspells you will be running in a U/B/X tempo deck to use on their turn.
Certainly rdw benefits from this, depending on their build. Then again that is what a sideboard is for.
Ever played a terminus/suppreme verdict in a control mirror?
People still maindeck either, for the upsides it gives against all other decks.
Also luck has nothing to do with this card, luck can always screw you over.
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You cant evaluate a card on its good qualites and ignore its bad, and that is exactly what you and Fluxje are doing.
Neither of them were ignoring the bad qualities. They're both pointing out that generally speaking, you'll be able to get use of your cards before your opponent does, which is useful. Unless you're contending that there are competitive decks that have a higher percentage of instant/flash cards than the percentage of playable cards in the Seer deck (which should be about 100%), your argument is ludicrous.
Although yes, in an aggro-heavy meta, this card is pretty risky and almost certainly worse than other aggro 4-drops. But that has nothing to do with the point they're making or your rebuttal. Now, if the meta ends up having decks that run higher curves, and aggro becomes less common, I can see that turning around somewhat, but if this card ewe re legal today I wouldn't be beringing it to any FNMs.
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It has been mentioned several times in this thread that it indeed doesnt.
In fact, it can be quite the beater for your opponents to reveal a Terminus, taking 6, and not being able to cast it.
In a deck that runs duskmantle, I would certainly play a couple of Dimir Charms.
Someone else mentioned portent too, would be amazing if this card got printed, even though I highly doubt that will happen.
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Basically, I see Duskmantle Seer as a curve-topper in the kind of aggro-control deck (likely w/delver) that preys on midrange metagames. They'll draw clunkier, more expensive spells than you which means they take more damage and can't benefit as much from the extra cards (since casting multiple spells a turn is less likely). On the other hand, you'll be drawing lots of 1 or 2-mana spells that trade lasting impact for efficiency (unsummon and the like), allowing you to make full use of the CA.
The types of decks you would prey on would often rather have a stable life total than take ~3 damage (just an estimate of the average damage taken for a midrange deck) a turn to draw an extra card on their opponents turn. Taking that much damage a turn against an opponent that has at least 4 power of flying (but likely at least 7, hello delver) and a steady stream of permission and bounce is a nightmare for midrange.
It's also worth noting that it's a black card, and black is the color of discard which helps negate the downside somewhat. I could definitely see this slotting into some kind of Grixis aggro-control list with Rakdos's Return (CMC of 2), searing spear, delver, syncopate (CMC of 1), thought scour, pike, augur, unsummon/cyclonic rift, and maybe even nighthawk (lifegain would help in tight situations and it's an insane creature to equip a pike to).
The main issue is a lack of good deck manipulation in the format, but the deck would certainly be capable of some very powerful starts w/a robust late-game (rift into rakdos's return ftw). The idea of pairing this guy's life loss with a spell that negates the downside and finishes off your opponent is compelling enough that I'll have to try it out.
Bob is there so decks that need early card draw can get early card draw.
Seer is there as a topper in low-curve aggressive decks that can break the symmetry of his ability.
Try switching the first word of those sentences. It's completely laughable. It's like evaluating Explore against Channel just because they both help you generate mana. We get it. It's not Bob. Neither is Wild Nacatl. But anyone who evaluated Bob vs. Nacatl would be laughed out of the room.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
At the same time, it has potential, so it cannot be fully discounted, as some matchups desperately need to deal with this thing. But at the same time, it's handing the game to other matchups, or at the very least turning the game into hope/pray for superior draws on the clock.
That's high praise for Moroii, although it was a limited bomb.
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Yes.
Now will someone please break Bloodgift Demon with the new cards... it's deserves so much more love than it's getting right now.
Maybe your deck just didn't synergize with him well enough. Duskmantle seer is not a pure control card or is he a an aggro card, but a hybrid. He fits in a an aggro/control deck from the results I've had.
My call is that he will fit best in an esper deck with 4 azorius charms for lifegain with geists, snapcasters and obzedat as a creature shell
The good:
The art is awesome
All abilities aside, he's a reasonable but not broken 4/4 Flyer for 4 mana. Back in the day, this would be really strong, but there are plenty of efficient flyers around 4-5 mana these days.
The bad:
Everything else.
While I appreciate that he's sort of like a Dark Confidant, he's nowhere near as good.
Giving extra options and/or card advantage to your opponent is almost never a good thing in a game of magic, so I don't know why people would think Duskmantle Seer would be good.
Yes, if your opponent is playing a crappy deck with lots of high-CC cards, it will give you the advantage... but what decks in Standard have bad curves these days? Most decks are aggro decks! I can't even imagine what a match between a Dimir deck with a Duskmantle Seer vs a solid Boros deck will be like. The Dimir deck is just going to get run over if they play Duskmantle Seer. And the same goes for zombies, RDW, g/w tokens, g/w aggro, humans decks, and a variety of other aggro decks.
A 4/4 Flyer isn't going to make up for this "drawback" either. A well-designed standard deck can easily play around this, just as many people have learned to play around Thragtusk and other annoying threats. But instead of playing against Thragtusk that doesn't help you in any way, you will gain extra cards! If Thragtusk gave your opponent extra cards, I doubt people would have played him at all.
You don't win games of magic by giving your opponent card advantage. Would you really run Howling Mine in today's metagame? Really? Please do so, I will love you for it. The added loss of life provided by Duskmantle Seer is basically irrelevant because most decks have small curves, and aggressive decks will out-race you anyway. You're actually helping them complete their deck's design goals.
In Ravnica, you never had to "make a deck around" a Dark Confidant. You just used it and won games. The fact that you have to hope your opponent is using high-CC spells (which is not going to happen in more than half of your tournament matches) to make him worthwhile is just crazy talk.
There are a few cards like Rakdos Return and stuff that can combo well with him, but again, why are we introducing combos and luck-based mechanics to make him viable? For a card like this, you want it to be good just for you. For 1 more mana, I'd play a Bloodgraft Demon easily... and even that's not getting played so what makes people think Duskmantle Seer will get played as well? Because it's a new shiny mythic? Yeah right.
What made Dark Confidant good is that his ability only worked for you. But we live in a world where most decks have low-CC cards and are very aggressive. Giving them more cards is just going to help them, and the life-loss is going to let them kill you even faster.
For the current environment, this card is terrible. I expect the price to tank very quickly once people play with this guy.
I really want to like him too, but he's just bad. Maybe when Innistrad rotates out, we can take another look at it.
Hey now that guy with an active top or jace is actually quite good! Though thats generally the case for every creature...
Point taken.
It's still bad.
I understand that there are some kitchen table decks that do this. Sure you can do some things with Time Spiral Memory Jar and the like, but those win the turn you play them. I haven't seen Jace's Archivistalong with Jace's Erasure top 8 anything, and that's how I evaluate cards. Is it got to be good in competitive play. Frankly I don't shell out cash for cards that are not tier 1 playable, unless its for EDH and then I even have a limit on that.
I've already explained that most decks in Standard are not going to be negatively affected by his "ability". It's going to help them more times than it won't. So while you might minimize your life loss from using the ability, they will be equally as non-affected by it as you are. So your opponents, without realizing it, are built around it already. Just look at what is doing well in standard. It's already compensated for it.
I also don't know what is advantageous by the cards being on your own turn. They can still draw all sorts of removal and instant spells and flash creatures to deal with your threats and play them on your turn. They will have a turn notice too, so they don't have to tap their lands on their turn.
And as long as you're taking damage and they are an aggressive deck, you're helping them. You only have 20 life. You're just making it easier for them to kill you. With a few burn spells, it won't be long before you're dead.
It's never a good idea to give your opponent more cards. The 4/4 flyer body isn't worth this drawback. Again, why not just pay 1 more mana and get a Bloodgift Demon which just benefits you and has less loss of life compared to Duskmantle Seer. Now you can put whatever you want in your deck and you only pay 1 life.
But the thing is, people can play Bloodgraft Demon now - nothing is stopping them. If people aren't playing this card now, which is actually quite a card with potential, then why would they suddenly play Duskmantle Seer? Just because it's 1 mana cheaper and it's a mythic in a new set?
This card is going to lose you the game more times than it will you the game, that is for sure. Just imagine how many decks would be improved with a Howling Mine-like effect and the answer is, "A lot of them". We don't exactly have a lot of control decks with high-CC spells in Standard right now, and with Boros coming, I don't think that will change anytime soon.
Sorry to break it to people, but this card is garbage right now and the price is going to tank. I also don't see any redeeming qualities if the environment gets a little slower either.
1. What decks don't have a low curve? Even control decks have about 2/3 of the deck at 3 CMC or less. If you don't believe that, look at recent dailies.
2. Stop saying he's CA at all. He's not. There is no bonus CA. There is strict card parity. No more, no less.
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Maybe not very good and very niche but unplayable? I think not.
http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=317475478823307368#overview/src=dashboard
Like reading magic theory?
http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=2901104710618966704#overview/src=dashboard
Are you a navy Nuke?
http://blueconceptnavynuke.blogspot.com/2012/08/captains-mast-at-nnptc.html
No. He is always card parity. You get a card. They get a card. Simple. Any attempts to say otherwise are attempts to win an argument by making up new ideas, but the fact remains: You get a card. They get a card. Card parity.
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Read the post above you, and then rewrite your statement.
People also do not seem to understand that you force BOB's effect on your opponents, there is a reason why not every deck known to man runs bob.
Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found.
The whip is kept for special occasions
Why does the timing matter? What if they draw an instant to cast and you draw 2 lands? Didn't they get better "temporal card advantage" now? What if you draw one spell you can cast and one you don't have mana for, but they draw an instant? "Temporal card parity?" The draws are random, and just as likely to give your opponent an advantave as you. Who has a narrow view and poor card evaluation skills now?
As for not every deck playing Bob. I have a feeling that if Bant/Esper control could get a free Bob effect they'd do so 100% of the time.
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How can you be sure that one scenario is any more likely than any other with out knowing the decks and the abilities happening at random? You're looking at the best possible scenario and saying the card is good because of it without taking into account that
1. other decks may want the effect even more than you (mono red/boros)
2. may have high numbers of instants with which to punish you (bant/esper/UWR)
3. random bad luck may screw you.
You cant evaluate a card on its good qualites and ignore its bad, and that is exactly what you and Fluxje are doing.
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Timing matters, why do you think 99% of the pro's advocate being on the play instead of the draw, and why so many advocate for a different system.
There is no better way to respond to this than you are wrong.
He is evaluating the odds on simple premises.
Think of this card in a tempo deck, and this card being your top end.
There is currently ONE maindeckable instant legal in standard that can kill Duskmantle.
Every flapper that is out there currently with equal or lower cmc, is beaten straight up by the P/Tof duskmantle (dont throw obscurities as rakdos or desecration demon at me).
Untapping with this means you will have most likely an attacker that they can not deal with immediately, plus you drew an extra card which allows you to use the tempo tools you have at your disposal on your turn, or hold back the plethorea of disruption/counterspells you will be running in a U/B/X tempo deck to use on their turn.
Certainly rdw benefits from this, depending on their build. Then again that is what a sideboard is for.
Ever played a terminus/suppreme verdict in a control mirror?
People still maindeck either, for the upsides it gives against all other decks.
Also luck has nothing to do with this card, luck can always screw you over.
Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found.
The whip is kept for special occasions
Neither of them were ignoring the bad qualities. They're both pointing out that generally speaking, you'll be able to get use of your cards before your opponent does, which is useful. Unless you're contending that there are competitive decks that have a higher percentage of instant/flash cards than the percentage of playable cards in the Seer deck (which should be about 100%), your argument is ludicrous.
Although yes, in an aggro-heavy meta, this card is pretty risky and almost certainly worse than other aggro 4-drops. But that has nothing to do with the point they're making or your rebuttal. Now, if the meta ends up having decks that run higher curves, and aggro becomes less common, I can see that turning around somewhat, but if this card ewe re legal today I wouldn't be beringing it to any FNMs.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon