I am confused by all the comparsions to Bloodgift. I really am.
Yes, you can look at this, Bloodgift, and Bob as the same jobs, but here is where they differ:
Bob gives you Card Advantage at the cost of life.
Bloodgift gives you Card Advantage at the cost of being slow, and also life (but less so).
Seer gives you direct damage at the cost of Card Advantage, if you are prioritizing the card advantage you're not reading the same card. Because Card Advantage is not OprahBob's strength.
If you focus on your opponent's taking damage as the primary purpose for running OprahBob (Because EVERYONE gets a new Car...d) then it's a much simpler game of attrition. You want to put them to zero before the Cards they are getting kill you. Risky but you're more prepared for this fight than they are. What OprahBob needs is a bit more (decent) Counterspells in color, and to take advantage of the existing Black Hand Disruption and Blue Cheap Field Disruption. (But more of both is nice too.)
...Or if you want to do alliances of Guilds add in Red burn/haste or White lifegain. Depending on if you like Orz/Az support or Iz/Rak support for your Dimir colors. Both give tricks Seer likes, so they are both valid paths. Orzov has Extort and Lifegain to help mute the self-harm Ophrabob is giving you. Azorious has better lifegain, draw, and disruption to use. Izzet gives you the red side of Overloads which are low CMC high effect cards to further hurt your opponent. Rakdos gives you fair cost creatures and more directed killing.
Mostly this comes down to do you wish to use Rakdos Return or Sphinx's Revelation if you go three color. As either card can put a serious kink into whatever plans your opponent has.
I'm suprised no one's compared him to graveborn muse, since it's the same mana cost and similar effect. I don't think it will be seeing play. If the cards only went to you he might be played in standard but in other formats bob is much better.
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Standard
none
Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
Ok, how about if they flip two lands and you flip a 4 drop and a 2 drop? Is that better for you?
I'll see your bad scenario and raise you a good scenario. What if I flip 2 lands and they flip the 4 drop and a 2 drop? Or how about they flip a Mizzium Mortars, and I flip a Negate?
They're going to reprint Portent
I CAN FEEEEEEEL IT
That would be sweet, but wizards seems to not like cheap cantrip/deck manipulation cards in standard with Snappy. With this guy, Delver and Snappy legal, I would be willing to stoop as low as playing Opt or a variant.
When Bloodgift Demon is still legal (although i admit at a higher mana cost) and doesn't see play at all how can anyone hopes that this will see play in t2?
Check all the creatures played right now in t2 that have cmc more than 4:
Huntmaster
Thragtusk
Hellrider
Aristocrat
Thundermaw
Restoration
They all have in common that they have effect on the board the turn they enter , this one does not.
The only creature that see t2 play and doesn't have etb effect is olivia. I believe the comparison of this card with bloodgift demon shows why this card is not good enough.
An interesting thing to note while discerning the reason behind this ETB requirement, is that those creature all die to one or more of the most common removal spells, so they need instant value. Outside of Pillar of Flame and Selesnya Charm, the top 2 most common kill spells by far are Ultimate Price and Searing Spear. Duskmantle Seer dies to none of these. You mention that Olivia is the only higher costing creature that sees play without an ETB effect. She also happens to be a creature that usually can't be killed by any of those kill spells I mentioned above. Killing the Seer will require something more along the lines of Mizzium Mortars, Dreadbore, Detention Sphere, or a sweeper like Terminus or Supreme Verdict, etc. Notice that the spells that kill him are either counterable, will take a chunk of life, or both. Dies to removal is really a bad argument for Duskmantle Seer simply because he doesn't really die to much removal in this format. Beating Restoration Angel in combat is just icing on the cake.
I have a feeling that this guy is going to be something like Tarmogoyf, Jace TMS, Stoneforge Mystic, Swords, etc where nobody really knows how to evaluate the card at first. Then, either one of 2 things will happen. One, people start playing with the card in a deck or 2, and it turns out to be bonkers. Or two, 6 months go by and Wizards prints some cards in the next couple of sets that push this guy, then people realize how good he is. I foresee his price dropping to $12, and then going back up to $25-30 when people start to figure out how good he is. If he starts seeing play as multiple copies in a tier 1 modern deck, he could even hit $40.
If events don't unfold like I expect them to, then he'll drop to about 8-10 and I'll only be out $20 for my 4 copies of a sweet casual/EDH card. But by his price already jumping to $20, and the fact that Pro's like LSV, Chapin, Finkle, Nassif, Yuuya, and Shuhei are all going to be trying to break this card in a deck with Delver and Snappy, I'm betting on this guy becoming very powerful.
God this guy reminds me of Circu, Dimir Lobotomist, except Circu did something...
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
this card.....wow. not quite confidant, but....i like this thing. b/u + flying, plus vampire, non-legend....plus bob version 2.0.....prettttayyyyyy good.
my multiplayer friends will love when i drop this.
I'll see your bad scenario and raise you a good scenario. What if I flip 2 lands and they flip the 4 drop and a 2 drop? Or how about they flip a Mizzium Mortars, and I flip a Negate?
I was responding to a person who made the same argument you did for why Seer is good. We could continue to go in circles, or you could both admit that since this is all random there is a chance you will end up helping your opponent more than you help yourself.
I am confused by all the comparsions to Bloodgift. I really am.
Yes, you can look at this, Bloodgift, and Bob as the same jobs, but here is where they differ:
Bob gives you Card Advantage at the cost of life.
Bloodgift gives you Card Advantage at the cost of being slow, and also life (but less so).
Seer gives you direct damage at the cost of Card Advantage, if you are prioritizing the card advantage you're not reading the same card. Because Card Advantage is not OprahBob's strength.
If you focus on your opponent's taking damage as the primary purpose for running OprahBob (Because EVERYONE gets a new Car...d) then it's a much simpler game of attrition. You want to put them to zero before the Cards they are getting kill you. Risky but you're more prepared for this fight than they are. What OprahBob needs is a bit more (decent) Counterspells in color, and to take advantage of the existing Black Hand Disruption and Blue Cheap Field Disruption. (But more of both is nice too.)
If you are relying on him for direct damage, you are playing the wrong kind of game. As noted above, you are just as likely to help your opponent as hurt them with this card.
A 2/3 body without bolt isn't that bad. Plus he was a lobotomy on a stick. Who cares about his body...lol.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Man, how did this thing become a 20 dollar mythic? It was 35 for 4 last night and I passed on it (d'oh).
It's good, but I don't see it being as universally playable as some of the other high value mythics out there. I like that it kills Restoration Angels, and that in the right deck it can really put your opponent out to dry by hurting them enough to make the 4 from this guy finish the job. Still thinking it'll find it's way down to 8-9 after release, though. It's horrible against aggro, and whether you like it or not, you are feeding your opponent answers and threats. Even well-planned symmetry offset strategies are hard to play well when there isn't a "may" clause. This dude will straight up kill you sometimes.
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
If events don't unfold like I expect them to, then he'll drop to about 8-10 and I'll only be out $20 for my 4 copies of a sweet casual/EDH card. But by his price already jumping to $20, and the fact that Pro's like LSV, Chapin, Finkle, Nassif, Yuuya, and Shuhei are all going to be trying to break this card in a deck with Delver and Snappy, I'm betting on this guy becoming very powerful.
Funny thing is, LSV and PVDDR already said on twitter it's tournament playable.
I expect at least half an article from Chapin next week on this card.
I was responding to a person who made the same argument you did for why Seer is good. We could continue to go in circles, or you could both admit that since this is all random there is a chance you will end up helping your opponent more than you help yourself.
If you are relying on him for direct damage, you are playing the wrong kind of game. As noted above, you are just as likely to help your opponent as hurt them with this card.
quote me or sig me or whatever you want, but mark my words, this will be one of the tournament defining cards in the coming months.
Reminds me of the time when the powerhouses in MtG was 4/4 flyers for five mana
Are you trying to say that creatures are as bad now as when Serra Angel was a powerhouse? I don't know what else to infer from that statement.
I was pointing out that right now very few flyers are even played. The most common ones are probably 1/1 tokens or Restoration Angel, and importantly this guy beats the latter in combat. It is simply a fact that at the moment this card dodges a lot of removal and wins combat vs. most other creatures.
It is also a fact that it doesn't do anything upon entering play and the current metagame is so situated around ETB effects that a 4/4 flyer by itself probably isn't strong enough. So we'll see if people can get use out of the ability and make it good. Library manipulation would be a start.
From the playtesting so far, Duskmantle seer has been a powerhouse.
I'm genuinely curious, have you tested it against any faster aggro builds? I notice you had played it against some controllish stuff and some midrange but I think its weakness isn't really against those but rather faster decks that utilize cheap efficient beaters. Rakdos comes to mind for standard.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
i dont think they are gonna print this. i would pick the charm above that card.
rearrange and mill at the same time fits dimir
and you get 2 alternative options if needed
I think people are forgetting that the rearrange on the charm is actually technically card disadvantage because it doesn't draw the card. In a best case scenario you can screw your opponent out of drawing gas for a turn or you can index yourself.
Now in a late game that Fateseal can actually be very useful even as card disadvantage. You can look at your opponent's library and basically ensure that they draw a blank, and that can be great. But Portent does the same AND draws you a card. I guess the point is that technically you CAN use Dimir Charm to help your next draw, it isn't necessarily the best option because you're technically throwing a card away in most circumstances. Miracles would be a notable exception where it would possibly be worth it.
just playtested a bit...i tried Telling Time to prepare for life loss, plus with Dimir Charm (as previously mentioned) on opponent...its pretty obscene....though im already tired of looking at this haggard proxy im using..bahh
Are you trying to say that creatures are as bad now as when Serra Angel was a powerhouse? I don't know what else to infer from that statement.
No, it was just an off-hand comment on how much the power level of creatures have increased over the last 15 years; people debate whether this card - a beefed up 4/4 flyer for four mana - is playable in today's standard. If it existed 15 years ago, it would be heads and shoulders above the format defining cards of that era.
I love how cheap and efficient creature that provide card advantage are now not enough because they don't provide card advantage right when they enter the table. Man, people have really become spoiled.
And as bad as "dies to removal" always is, what removal are we talking about exactly? Selesnya Charm doesn't hit this guy. Abrupt Decay? Nope. Ultimate Price? Nope. Pillar of flame? Only with two copies. Tragic Slip and Brimstone Volley? Only when Morbid.
Spoiled or no, in modern competitive Magic if you're spending 4+ mana you need that immediate effect or a power level that is unmatched. It remains to be seen if this card is at that power level.
I love how efficient, evasive creatures that provide card advantage and reach are now not enough because they don't provide card advantage right when they enter the table. Man, people have really become spoiled.
Well, he doesn't actually provide CA. Or I guess you could say he cycles through providing you CA, then bringing you back to parity, since unless your opponent grabs an instant/flash spell, they have to wait to cast it.
What he really does is provide an exploitable symmetry. I can see aggro/tempo getting a kick out of this against midrange or control, anything with a high curve, just because if they draw something that answers him better than 1-for-1, they're going to pay for it (wipes, Hellkite, etc.) And since your deck has a lower curve, you can use those extra cards much earlier than they do.
That said, they may just draw the land they need to cast the answer they already have, losing no life. Or they may draw a low CMC but high impact spell like Mizzium Mortars (if that gets any play), Entreat the Angels, or, god help you, Bonfire of the Damned. And since you have to untap with him for any effect, and he's a 4-drop (meaning most decks can cast most of their answers to him), you take a lot of risks slapping this guy down. And the colors AND the deck types that would want him are both somewhat constrictive, as opposed to other staples like Revelation and Hellkite which all sorts of decks want (those that like life, cards, and damage, which is most of them). That puts him in a delicate position, one that has the potential to absolutely skyrocket in value, or plummet if that particular color+strategy doesn't come together, or more likely fluctuate wildly depending on who takes Top 8 (or not) with him any given week.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
It's a 4/4 flyer versus Dark Confidant a 2/1 non-flyer.
With that said, it costs more mana, is two colours and provides a symmetrical effect that will usually be bad for you (unless you're against something like Omniscience).
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Yes, you can look at this, Bloodgift, and Bob as the same jobs, but here is where they differ:
Bob gives you Card Advantage at the cost of life.
Bloodgift gives you Card Advantage at the cost of being slow, and also life (but less so).
Seer gives you direct damage at the cost of Card Advantage, if you are prioritizing the card advantage you're not reading the same card. Because Card Advantage is not OprahBob's strength.
If you focus on your opponent's taking damage as the primary purpose for running OprahBob (Because EVERYONE gets a new Car...d) then it's a much simpler game of attrition. You want to put them to zero before the Cards they are getting kill you. Risky but you're more prepared for this fight than they are. What OprahBob needs is a bit more (decent) Counterspells in color, and to take advantage of the existing Black Hand Disruption and Blue Cheap Field Disruption. (But more of both is nice too.)
...Or if you want to do alliances of Guilds add in Red burn/haste or White lifegain. Depending on if you like Orz/Az support or Iz/Rak support for your Dimir colors. Both give tricks Seer likes, so they are both valid paths. Orzov has Extort and Lifegain to help mute the self-harm Ophrabob is giving you. Azorious has better lifegain, draw, and disruption to use. Izzet gives you the red side of Overloads which are low CMC high effect cards to further hurt your opponent. Rakdos gives you fair cost creatures and more directed killing.
Mostly this comes down to do you wish to use Rakdos Return or Sphinx's Revelation if you go three color. As either card can put a serious kink into whatever plans your opponent has.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
I'll see your bad scenario and raise you a good scenario. What if I flip 2 lands and they flip the 4 drop and a 2 drop? Or how about they flip a Mizzium Mortars, and I flip a Negate?
That would be sweet, but wizards seems to not like cheap cantrip/deck manipulation cards in standard with Snappy. With this guy, Delver and Snappy legal, I would be willing to stoop as low as playing Opt or a variant.
An interesting thing to note while discerning the reason behind this ETB requirement, is that those creature all die to one or more of the most common removal spells, so they need instant value. Outside of Pillar of Flame and Selesnya Charm, the top 2 most common kill spells by far are Ultimate Price and Searing Spear. Duskmantle Seer dies to none of these. You mention that Olivia is the only higher costing creature that sees play without an ETB effect. She also happens to be a creature that usually can't be killed by any of those kill spells I mentioned above. Killing the Seer will require something more along the lines of Mizzium Mortars, Dreadbore, Detention Sphere, or a sweeper like Terminus or Supreme Verdict, etc. Notice that the spells that kill him are either counterable, will take a chunk of life, or both. Dies to removal is really a bad argument for Duskmantle Seer simply because he doesn't really die to much removal in this format. Beating Restoration Angel in combat is just icing on the cake.
I have a feeling that this guy is going to be something like Tarmogoyf, Jace TMS, Stoneforge Mystic, Swords, etc where nobody really knows how to evaluate the card at first. Then, either one of 2 things will happen. One, people start playing with the card in a deck or 2, and it turns out to be bonkers. Or two, 6 months go by and Wizards prints some cards in the next couple of sets that push this guy, then people realize how good he is. I foresee his price dropping to $12, and then going back up to $25-30 when people start to figure out how good he is. If he starts seeing play as multiple copies in a tier 1 modern deck, he could even hit $40.
If events don't unfold like I expect them to, then he'll drop to about 8-10 and I'll only be out $20 for my 4 copies of a sweet casual/EDH card. But by his price already jumping to $20, and the fact that Pro's like LSV, Chapin, Finkle, Nassif, Yuuya, and Shuhei are all going to be trying to break this card in a deck with Delver and Snappy, I'm betting on this guy becoming very powerful.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
my multiplayer friends will love when i drop this.
To be fair Circu didn't have a relevant body for his mana cost.
A 4/4 flyer in this meta is actually quite good. Not good enough to see play on it's own, but we'll see if the ability is enough of a net positive...
I was responding to a person who made the same argument you did for why Seer is good. We could continue to go in circles, or you could both admit that since this is all random there is a chance you will end up helping your opponent more than you help yourself.
If you are relying on him for direct damage, you are playing the wrong kind of game. As noted above, you are just as likely to help your opponent as hurt them with this card.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
It's good, but I don't see it being as universally playable as some of the other high value mythics out there. I like that it kills Restoration Angels, and that in the right deck it can really put your opponent out to dry by hurting them enough to make the 4 from this guy finish the job. Still thinking it'll find it's way down to 8-9 after release, though. It's horrible against aggro, and whether you like it or not, you are feeding your opponent answers and threats. Even well-planned symmetry offset strategies are hard to play well when there isn't a "may" clause. This dude will straight up kill you sometimes.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Funny thing is, LSV and PVDDR already said on twitter it's tournament playable.
I expect at least half an article from Chapin next week on this card.
quote me or sig me or whatever you want, but mark my words, this will be one of the tournament defining cards in the coming months.
Reminds me of the time when the powerhouses in MtG was 4/4 flyers for five mana
Are you trying to say that creatures are as bad now as when Serra Angel was a powerhouse? I don't know what else to infer from that statement.
I was pointing out that right now very few flyers are even played. The most common ones are probably 1/1 tokens or Restoration Angel, and importantly this guy beats the latter in combat. It is simply a fact that at the moment this card dodges a lot of removal and wins combat vs. most other creatures.
It is also a fact that it doesn't do anything upon entering play and the current metagame is so situated around ETB effects that a 4/4 flyer by itself probably isn't strong enough. So we'll see if people can get use out of the ability and make it good. Library manipulation would be a start.
I'm genuinely curious, have you tested it against any faster aggro builds? I notice you had played it against some controllish stuff and some midrange but I think its weakness isn't really against those but rather faster decks that utilize cheap efficient beaters. Rakdos comes to mind for standard.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Care to provide scenarios when he was good?
I think people are forgetting that the rearrange on the charm is actually technically card disadvantage because it doesn't draw the card. In a best case scenario you can screw your opponent out of drawing gas for a turn or you can index yourself.
Now in a late game that Fateseal can actually be very useful even as card disadvantage. You can look at your opponent's library and basically ensure that they draw a blank, and that can be great. But Portent does the same AND draws you a card. I guess the point is that technically you CAN use Dimir Charm to help your next draw, it isn't necessarily the best option because you're technically throwing a card away in most circumstances. Miracles would be a notable exception where it would possibly be worth it.
No, it was just an off-hand comment on how much the power level of creatures have increased over the last 15 years; people debate whether this card - a beefed up 4/4 flyer for four mana - is playable in today's standard. If it existed 15 years ago, it would be heads and shoulders above the format defining cards of that era.
Spoiled or no, in modern competitive Magic if you're spending 4+ mana you need that immediate effect or a power level that is unmatched. It remains to be seen if this card is at that power level.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
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Decks:
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Well, he doesn't actually provide CA. Or I guess you could say he cycles through providing you CA, then bringing you back to parity, since unless your opponent grabs an instant/flash spell, they have to wait to cast it.
What he really does is provide an exploitable symmetry. I can see aggro/tempo getting a kick out of this against midrange or control, anything with a high curve, just because if they draw something that answers him better than 1-for-1, they're going to pay for it (wipes, Hellkite, etc.) And since your deck has a lower curve, you can use those extra cards much earlier than they do.
That said, they may just draw the land they need to cast the answer they already have, losing no life. Or they may draw a low CMC but high impact spell like Mizzium Mortars (if that gets any play), Entreat the Angels, or, god help you, Bonfire of the Damned. And since you have to untap with him for any effect, and he's a 4-drop (meaning most decks can cast most of their answers to him), you take a lot of risks slapping this guy down. And the colors AND the deck types that would want him are both somewhat constrictive, as opposed to other staples like Revelation and Hellkite which all sorts of decks want (those that like life, cards, and damage, which is most of them). That puts him in a delicate position, one that has the potential to absolutely skyrocket in value, or plummet if that particular color+strategy doesn't come together, or more likely fluctuate wildly depending on who takes Top 8 (or not) with him any given week.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
You're wrong. It's not strictly worse.
It's a 4/4 flyer versus Dark Confidant a 2/1 non-flyer.
With that said, it costs more mana, is two colours and provides a symmetrical effect that will usually be bad for you (unless you're against something like Omniscience).