My comments as a strictly limited and casual player:
Casual: This card has a couple of interesting things going for it. A big body, a useful ability, and a relevant tribe that can easily gain life. It's currently off colors for the most common vampire tribal decks I've seen, but most of those are agro and it wouldn't be hard to splash a couple islands to run grixis-vamps since most casual vamps are running terramorphics or evolving wilds anyway. The casual market might keep this card big. This has some possibilities with "useless" casual cards like index. That said, I won't pop many (any) of these from boosters and I refuse to pay more than 10 a card, so unless it goes low, I'm out.
Limited: This is a dangerous card on a number of levels. It's probably P1P1 worthy even though the color commitment is heavy because of it's body and ability, though it wants you to draft a particular type of deck thereafter (one with maybe few other expensive bombs in it). If you open this in sealed, you might need a lot of agro-type evolvers or orhzov stallers.
This card is good. I don't know why people keep refering to this as a bad Bob, c'mon it's obviously a totally different card.
In an aggro-tempo shell it's well placed against midrange-overthetop decks. And i think this could be particularly good in a BUG deck with some evolve 1-2 drops, strangleroot geists, dreg manglers and rapid hybridization, etc.
If built properly the damage to the opponent is far more relevant than CA if you're running against decks that curve out on the 5 drops (like the majority of standard decks as now). I don't mind giving my opponent more spells if he's not going to use them beacause he's already dead. How many games have you lost with a Thragtusk still in your hand against a RDW or RB deck?
As said, this could be an all star or the abyssal persecutor of the set, strictly depending on how much the format will go for aggro, midrange or big spells.
On it's own I am not a fan of this card for many reasons other people stated already... chief being it adds a ton of variance to games since who knows what you and your opponent will draw (they could draw land with it... and then draw their bombs on their turn which would screw you)... but this card is a lot more complex than that. It's once it interacts with other cards that it's true potential shines.
For example this card + azorius charm is downright filthy but on the flip side that only works if they attack you with their fatty.
This card + dimirs charm is always great
Outside standard there are even more options to mess with this as any ability that lets you mess with top of decks or put creatures on top of your opponents deck become very good. For example this plus sensei's diving top is amazing for your own deck.
The other big thing to keep in mind is if you play this, then you are building your deck around it. Your opponent likely is not and is more likely to draw into higher CMC cards. So over time your opponent should take more damage from this than you... but again variance... some games the exact opposite will still happen.
All that said... it's one I would risk preordering at $5 a pop but would hold off on at $10. It's an interesting enough ability that I don't see it being a junk mythic ever and it could be broken and be a break out star... but it's complex enough that I wouldn't be putting down a ton on it without some serious play testing.
This makes me hopeful we'll see a spell that returns target creature opponent controls to the top of the library: it would work very well alongside this guy
Mythic BU vampire with a good body and good ability at a fair CC: winner in my books.
I find alot of you are missing the major effect. "Each player reveals the top card of their library....." That can bite you in the A@@ when facing RDW like jund hates in modern. Don't get me wrong, I love drawing cards, but the standard we have now can deal mega creature damage the likes I have never seen before (loxidon smitter, Bonfire, Thragtusk, Thundermaw Hellkite, rancor, and others). Life gain is a big deal now, thus will the chance of loosing life (and your opponent is a +) be worth playing to draw what? Counter spells are weak right now due to Cavern of Souls, Abrupt decay, Slaughter games, smitter, and others. Land is awsome, but your opponent may draw a killer instant spell. Creature is not that great cause is dangerous on turn 5 (5 mana) that does not heavily drain your life. Instant removal is the best case scenerio. Sorcery removal could suck due to a high mana cost.
For those comparing this to Bob; its apples and oranges. Bob is all about early game speed. This guy is turn 5 to slow for the standard we have now. If I am wrong; power to the players who play this card.
This card is good. I don't know why people keep refering to this as a bad Bob, c'mon it's obviously a totally different card.
Quite true. It plays a totally different role than Bob. But, since it's an obvious homage, I think it's inevitable that people will jump to comparisons.
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
It's not so much Bad-Bob as it is Evil-Howling Mine. I've played HM before, so I would play this if I get one. I will probably try to trade a planeswalker or something standard competitive for this if I don't get one. The more I think about it, the more I like it. And since I only play casual or limited, I don't have to worry.
I find alot of you are missing the major effect. "Each player reveals the top card of their library....." That can bite you in the A@@ when facing RDW like jund hates in modern. Don't get me wrong, I love drawing cards, but the standard we have now can deal mega creature damage the likes I have never seen before (loxidon smitter, Bonfire, Thragtusk, Thundermaw Hellkite, rancor, and others). Life gain is a big deal now, thus will the chance of loosing life (and your opponent is a +) be worth playing to draw what? Counter spells are weak right now due to Cavern of Souls, Abrupt decay, Slaughter games, smitter, and others. Land is awsome, but your opponent may draw a killer instant spell. Creature is not that great cause is dangerous on turn 5 (5 mana) that does not heavily drain your life. Instant removal is the best case scenerio. Sorcery removal could suck due to a high mana cost.
For those comparing this to Bob; its apples and oranges. Bob is all about early game speed. This guy is turn 5 to slow for the standard we have now. If I am wrong; power to the players who play this card.
That's true, the lose life clause is totally a pain, that's why if YOU are the aggressor this is an hit. Just because this is an UB card doesn't mean you have to play it in a control deck. This is a card for an aggro deck where the damage it deals is actually useful to your plan. If i'm the guy playing a deck full of thragtusks, planeswalkers, angels etc. i'd start to sweat when my aggro opponent drops this while i'm at low life count struggling to stabilize.
FIRSTLY, his ability happens at the BEGINNING OF UPKEEP! Think about this:
1. Build a deck with Low Cipher and CMC cards and this bad man here. 2. You actually get the card advantage as you STILL draw on you turn and you can easily have an answer or two at that time (That's for all you Swagtusk Gogetters). 3. He's a 4/4 Flying beatstick. With Cipher and some artifact help from the Strad, he can be a viable threat ON HIS OWN! 4. There are a small handful of spells that can kill him in terms of damage. You either block or outright kill or exile him if you're on the other end of this beatstick.
That said, he's not Bob. Bob ONLY hurts you. Seer can hurt BOTH players... So, leave Bob back in Modern and work with Seer here, people....
[CARD]
Tombstalker
[/CARD] and Force of will are massively played allongside bob.
Tombstalker isn't played with Bob in Modern because there isn't enough library manipulation to keep both of them relatively happy. Tombstalker is rarely played with Bob in Legacy because the life loss still isn't worth it.
The closest I'd get to a 5+-cmc threat commonly played alongside Bob is Batterskull, and sadly, Stoneforge Mystic is more likely to pry it out of the deck than Bob is to flip it (you run 3-4 SFMs and one BSkull).
The unplayabob discussion must have spurred wizards to make this. This card is super cool, but definitely not mythic if bloodgift demon isn't. Bloodgift is generally better/more flexible no matter how I look at it.
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Feel free to tell me yours!
Tombstalker isn't played with Bob in Modern because there isn't enough library manipulation to keep both of them relatively happy. Tombstalker is rarely played with Bob in Legacy because the life loss still isn't worth it.
The closest I'd get to a 5+-cmc threat commonly played alongside Bob is Batterskull, and sadly, Stoneforge Mystic is more likely to pry it out of the deck than Bob is to flip it (you run 3-4 SFMs and one BSkull).
Tombstalker might have lost it's edge, but it was heavilly played in Legacyyears back. Even if we leave the stalker out of the equation, Force of Will is still played with Bob.
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“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
1º. You know the enemy top card in your unkeep
He will get some damage and you can make a decision.
If it's dangerous to you.
Mill it our make the enemy discard it.
Else, let it pass.
2º. You will get an extra card (your deck don't have high converted mana cost cards and you probably will have some extort stuff so this won't hurt you so much)
I totally like this card for a Grixis control. Black and blue have tons of cards to make the opponent to discard, Duskmantle Seer noy only deals damage to your opponents, you make them draw in your turn, so you can come with Duress or spectres and make him/her discard.
Also, he is a Vampire/Wizard, you know that having a type gives other advantages too, maybe not in standar, but modern, EDH or legacy.
I totally love this card, I'm sure dimir decks will carry on 1 or 2, for more control. If I weren't going for boros, I'd have picked up dimir... and I would have used this card, seriously.
I think a combination of it being 1 cmc cheaper, being able to potentially draw with no pain (land), get information about your opponent's hand, and also potentially hurt them severely means this card shouldn't be evaluated the same as Bloodgift Demon.
As for general playability? It's an interesting card to be sure, but I think it's going to struggle to find a home. Had they made it a 4/3 or 3/3 flying for BBU or something it would have had a lot more going for it.
Eh?
You'll lose way more life on average from Duskmantle than Bloodgift.
Duskmantle requires U.
Bloodgift will never help your opponent where Duskmantle will give them land quite often or a possible nut-draw.
These cards can be compared and if they are you should look at the WHOLE picture.
While I think Bloodgift is criminally underplayed, I don't think Duskmantle is that great especially in what looks to be a format with a lot of damage to the face from Boros.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
I think it's quite clear that this guy is going to need help in the form of library manipulation (brainstorm and portent) and lifegain to be truly good but knowing MtG players if this guy can be busted, someone will find a way; and the potential is definitely there.
At his mana cost he won't be as good. Bloodgift Demon makes sure you never pay more than 1 and keeps your opponent from doing the same, at 1 more with a bigger body. Bob's good because of his CMC.
How about "You may discard your hand, pay 5 life, rip this card, remove 3 digits from any number of target fingers you control, and concede at the end of the next end step rather than pay It Will Go Through!!'s mana cost.
Bloodgift Demon is probably better in most cases, but not all of them. Duskmantle will almost always deal more damage to the opponent per turn, and come down a turn earlier. Because of this, it has more potential topping out the curve of an aggressive deck that tries to get the opponent to 0 life by turn 5 or so. It can also randomly create some come from behind blowouts against decks with expensive enough cards, which could make for sideboard slots in the right environment.
I also just want to say how happy I am that they finally fixed the howling mine problem. I'm hoping they print a mine variant that triggers on just your upkeep soon.
I was just about to post something like this so kudos to you.
This card is not Dark Confidant and shouldn't be compared to it. Dark Confidant is all about CA for you at a relatively cheap entry cost. This card will draw you additional cards (like Bob) but not net you CA. The main draw of this guy should be the following
1) He potentially deals a lot of direct damage to your opponent (from what they draw) and your deck should be tuned to overall take less damage than an opponent who is not geared to it.
2) He is a 4/4 flyer for 4 with relevant creature types
3) Your opponent gets the cards on your turn so you can theoretically have a chance to do something about it (relevant in black as you have access to hand disruption)
4) You can see some of what your opponent has coming and plan accordingly on your turn.
Combine the above with library manipulation stuff and he might just work out. He will NOT be the new dark confidant though. If you try to use him as one he will be awful. If he is to shine it will be in a completely different role.... The same can be said for comparing him to bloodgift demon (a card I personally thought would see a lot more play than it has...). They don't serve the same purpose and if you think they do it's no surprise you think this card stinks.
To me this card is a big puzzle with the potential to be broken... but it will all be about how it interacts with other cards. By itself it's not good.
This guy will be the terror of tron..hey time to show..ops emrakul, ops ulamog, ops karn...damm i died
In standard it could go well against reanimator and ramp..but we will have to see, very good dimir very good haha
yeh so true, this will probably see play on a sideboard against Tron or reanimator, burn them for massive amounts of damage.
t1, swamp
t2, island, dark ritual, tap island, this guy
congratz, now just watch them burn as you just sit back and take little damage, and unless they play a Bob deck, or mono black control, you deal more damage to them and you keep pinging for 4=)
that said, time to build an UB control deck=)
call me unlucky, but i've never been able to get 2 of the same colors online in EDH unless i have a duel land. but i always get the 3 colors online. which is why i prefer this =)
it also makes ramp a downfall for other EDH decks, they have less chance of taking 0, plus they have to be runnung a lot of big creatures if they run ramp(or most likely, yet to see a ramp EDH with a lot of x spells)
this isn't supposed to act like Bob! it can be used for sideboard against reanimator or ramp decks! this is more expensive because it doesn't always help your opponent. the drawback, as already mentioned, is that it's supposed to be inside UB control, it isn't splashable, and if they don't have expensive cards in their decks, you're clearly at a disadvantage.
and use it with dark ritual if you play legacy, splash blue with your vamp deck, because he will probably do what dark confidant couldn't do, bash for decent amount of damage when you have that bloodline keeper flipped or vampire nocturnus active=)
i may be wrong about it seeing play in legacy, but it's a second dark confidant for EDH, and that will see play in many EDH decks(especially mine =)) http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20800.jpg
I think this guy could be nuts in a deck for him, although, the best format for him is modern in my opinion. He does at least deserve mention against high cmc through midrange, and especially against thragtusk. Maybe a mention in countertop control, as you choose which amount of life of the top three. He could get broken with some effort, but I don't think he will see much play (I am certainly trying him along phyrexian mana and death's shadow in modern)
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Casual: This card has a couple of interesting things going for it. A big body, a useful ability, and a relevant tribe that can easily gain life. It's currently off colors for the most common vampire tribal decks I've seen, but most of those are agro and it wouldn't be hard to splash a couple islands to run grixis-vamps since most casual vamps are running terramorphics or evolving wilds anyway. The casual market might keep this card big. This has some possibilities with "useless" casual cards like index. That said, I won't pop many (any) of these from boosters and I refuse to pay more than 10 a card, so unless it goes low, I'm out.
Limited: This is a dangerous card on a number of levels. It's probably P1P1 worthy even though the color commitment is heavy because of it's body and ability, though it wants you to draft a particular type of deck thereafter (one with maybe few other expensive bombs in it). If you open this in sealed, you might need a lot of agro-type evolvers or orhzov stallers.
In an aggro-tempo shell it's well placed against midrange-overthetop decks. And i think this could be particularly good in a BUG deck with some evolve 1-2 drops, strangleroot geists, dreg manglers and rapid hybridization, etc.
If built properly the damage to the opponent is far more relevant than CA if you're running against decks that curve out on the 5 drops (like the majority of standard decks as now). I don't mind giving my opponent more spells if he's not going to use them beacause he's already dead. How many games have you lost with a Thragtusk still in your hand against a RDW or RB deck?
As said, this could be an all star or the abyssal persecutor of the set, strictly depending on how much the format will go for aggro, midrange or big spells.
For example this card + azorius charm is downright filthy but on the flip side that only works if they attack you with their fatty.
This card + dimirs charm is always great
Outside standard there are even more options to mess with this as any ability that lets you mess with top of decks or put creatures on top of your opponents deck become very good. For example this plus sensei's diving top is amazing for your own deck.
The other big thing to keep in mind is if you play this, then you are building your deck around it. Your opponent likely is not and is more likely to draw into higher CMC cards. So over time your opponent should take more damage from this than you... but again variance... some games the exact opposite will still happen.
All that said... it's one I would risk preordering at $5 a pop but would hold off on at $10. It's an interesting enough ability that I don't see it being a junk mythic ever and it could be broken and be a break out star... but it's complex enough that I wouldn't be putting down a ton on it without some serious play testing.
Very interesting card!
[CARD]
Tombstalker
[/CARD] and Force of will are massively played allongside bob.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Mythic BU vampire with a good body and good ability at a fair CC: winner in my books.
For those comparing this to Bob; its apples and oranges. Bob is all about early game speed. This guy is turn 5 to slow for the standard we have now. If I am wrong; power to the players who play this card.
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Quite true. It plays a totally different role than Bob. But, since it's an obvious homage, I think it's inevitable that people will jump to comparisons.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
That's true, the lose life clause is totally a pain, that's why if YOU are the aggressor this is an hit. Just because this is an UB card doesn't mean you have to play it in a control deck. This is a card for an aggro deck where the damage it deals is actually useful to your plan. If i'm the guy playing a deck full of thragtusks, planeswalkers, angels etc. i'd start to sweat when my aggro opponent drops this while i'm at low life count struggling to stabilize.
FIRSTLY, his ability happens at the BEGINNING OF UPKEEP!
Think about this:
1. Build a deck with Low Cipher and CMC cards and this bad man here.
2. You actually get the card advantage as you STILL draw on you turn and you can easily have an answer or two at that time (That's for all you Swagtusk Gogetters).
3. He's a 4/4 Flying beatstick. With Cipher and some artifact help from the Strad, he can be a viable threat ON HIS OWN!
4. There are a small handful of spells that can kill him in terms of damage. You either block or outright kill or exile him if you're on the other end of this beatstick.
That said, he's not Bob. Bob ONLY hurts you. Seer can hurt BOTH players... So, leave Bob back in Modern and work with Seer here, people....
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In standard it could go well against reanimator and ramp..but we will have to see, very good dimir very good haha
Tombstalker isn't played with Bob in Modern because there isn't enough library manipulation to keep both of them relatively happy. Tombstalker is rarely played with Bob in Legacy because the life loss still isn't worth it.
The closest I'd get to a 5+-cmc threat commonly played alongside Bob is Batterskull, and sadly, Stoneforge Mystic is more likely to pry it out of the deck than Bob is to flip it (you run 3-4 SFMs and one BSkull).
Feel free to tell me yours!
Tombstalker might have lost it's edge, but it was heavilly played in Legacyyears back. Even if we leave the stalker out of the equation, Force of Will is still played with Bob.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
He will get some damage and you can make a decision.
If it's dangerous to you.
Mill it our make the enemy discard it.
Else, let it pass.
2º. You will get an extra card (your deck don't have high converted mana cost cards and you probably will have some extort stuff so this won't hurt you so much)
Also, he is a Vampire/Wizard, you know that having a type gives other advantages too, maybe not in standar, but modern, EDH or legacy.
I totally love this card, I'm sure dimir decks will carry on 1 or 2, for more control. If I weren't going for boros, I'd have picked up dimir... and I would have used this card, seriously.
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Eh?
You'll lose way more life on average from Duskmantle than Bloodgift.
Duskmantle requires U.
Bloodgift will never help your opponent where Duskmantle will give them land quite often or a possible nut-draw.
These cards can be compared and if they are you should look at the WHOLE picture.
While I think Bloodgift is criminally underplayed, I don't think Duskmantle is that great especially in what looks to be a format with a lot of damage to the face from Boros.
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I was just about to post something like this so kudos to you.
This card is not Dark Confidant and shouldn't be compared to it. Dark Confidant is all about CA for you at a relatively cheap entry cost. This card will draw you additional cards (like Bob) but not net you CA. The main draw of this guy should be the following
1) He potentially deals a lot of direct damage to your opponent (from what they draw) and your deck should be tuned to overall take less damage than an opponent who is not geared to it.
2) He is a 4/4 flyer for 4 with relevant creature types
3) Your opponent gets the cards on your turn so you can theoretically have a chance to do something about it (relevant in black as you have access to hand disruption)
4) You can see some of what your opponent has coming and plan accordingly on your turn.
Combine the above with library manipulation stuff and he might just work out. He will NOT be the new dark confidant though. If you try to use him as one he will be awful. If he is to shine it will be in a completely different role.... The same can be said for comparing him to bloodgift demon (a card I personally thought would see a lot more play than it has...). They don't serve the same purpose and if you think they do it's no surprise you think this card stinks.
To me this card is a big puzzle with the potential to be broken... but it will all be about how it interacts with other cards. By itself it's not good.
yeh so true, this will probably see play on a sideboard against Tron or reanimator, burn them for massive amounts of damage.
t1, swamp
t2, island, dark ritual, tap island, this guy
congratz, now just watch them burn as you just sit back and take little damage, and unless they play a Bob deck, or mono black control, you deal more damage to them and you keep pinging for 4=)
that said, time to build an UB control deck=)
call me unlucky, but i've never been able to get 2 of the same colors online in EDH unless i have a duel land. but i always get the 3 colors online. which is why i prefer this =)
it also makes ramp a downfall for other EDH decks, they have less chance of taking 0, plus they have to be runnung a lot of big creatures if they run ramp(or most likely, yet to see a ramp EDH with a lot of x spells)
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
and use it with dark ritual if you play legacy, splash blue with your vamp deck, because he will probably do what dark confidant couldn't do, bash for decent amount of damage when you have that bloodline keeper flipped or vampire nocturnus active=)
i may be wrong about it seeing play in legacy, but it's a second dark confidant for EDH, and that will see play in many EDH decks(especially mine =))
http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20800.jpg
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
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