This is where you're wrong. Ghost Council are not best used to stabilize against Aggro. In fact, as you noted, it's actually not that great at stabilizing against aggro. That is why it is poor to compare the two cards. Thragtusk is good against aggro, Ghost Council is better against control (as long as it resolves). They fulfill very different roles.
Yeah this is what I wanted to point out. It's actually bad against aggro and you aren't using it to its fullest potential if you intend to do some blocking with it. It's a lot more progressive and aggressive minded than Thrag. I'd feel more comfortable comparing it to Thundermaw, as they are both quick clocks and usually spell doom for your opponent once they hit the table.
This is where you're wrong. Ghost Council are not best used to stabilize against Aggro. In fact, as you noted, it's actually not that great at stabilizing against aggro. That is why it is poor to compare the two cards. Thragtusk is good against aggro, Ghost Council is better against control (as long as it resolves). They fulfill very different roles.
I agree with this, and also think it's good for the format. Right now mega-ramp control decks are in; giving those decks an answer to other control decks that's also bad against aggro might balance things out a bit more.
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It's better at attacking and racing than Thrag. Thrag is better at defending, but we shouldn't want cards that are simply better Thragtusks. Thragtusk does actually answer this guy fairly well, though, trading 3 for 2.
This is where you're wrong. Ghost Council are not best used to stabilize against Aggro. In fact, as you noted, it's actually not that great at stabilizing against aggro. That is why it is poor to compare the two cards. Thragtusk is good against aggro, Ghost Council is better against control (as long as it resolves). They fulfill very different roles.
I do agree that Ghost Council could be good in midrange builds to help fight control. But even then, if it's a five drop that gets stopped quickly and only drains 2 life, it's not going to be good enough. I know that control isn't playing many ways to stop this card today (just Azorius Charm, Alcehmist's Refuge, and Resto Angel shenanigans, I think), but they can easily play Selesnya Charm, Victim of Night, Murder, or maybe even Urgent Exorcism. I guess what I mean is that this card doesn't scare me no matter what deck I'm playing.
I do agree that Ghost Council could be good in midrange builds to help fight control. But even then, if it's a five drop that gets stopped quickly and only drains 2 life, it's not going to be good enough. I know that control isn't playing many ways to stop this card today (just Azorius Charm, Alcehmist's Refuge, and Resto Angel shenanigans, I think), but they can easily play Selesnya Charm, Victim of Night, Murder, or maybe even Urgent Exorcism. I guess what I mean is that this card doesn't scare me no matter what deck I'm playing.
If you have to start playing Murder and Victim of Night in your decks to fight Ghost Council you are hurting your deck against other decks. You will be much worse against Zombies for instance. It changes how you have to build your deck, and you have to diversify your answers. The fact that you have to do that in order to deal with him shows how powerful of a card he is.
This is a very good card, but I don't think it is any better than Angel of Serenity and so I wouldn't expect the price on this to be higher than the price on that. $50 isn't going to happen.
I think people (including the author) are probably overrating this a little bit. Constructed viable? Yes. Constructed powerhouse on the level of Thragtusk? I don't think so. It is a slow card that is good against other control decks. I might not even want to maindeck this in a midrange deck unless board sweeping control is everywhere. 1WWBB isn't going to be a guarantee either in decks that I'm assuming are going to be playing 3+ colors.
If you have to start playing Murder and Victim of Night in your decks to fight Ghost Council you are hurting your deck against other decks. You will be much worse against Zombies for instance. It changes how you have to build your deck, and you have to diversify your answers. The fact that you have to do that in order to deal with him shows how powerful of a card he is.
I don't mean to say that it's not good, only that it doesn't go in every BW deck and that it's not going to be one of the best cards in Standard. It's a playable card, but it's just not the amazing card that everyone is making it out to be.
I don't mean to say that it's not good, only that it doesn't go in every BW deck and that it's not going to be one of the best cards in Standard. It's a playable card, but it's just not the amazing card that everyone is making it out to be.
Goes into everything but Control, and you are dead wrong in your assumption.
Goes into everything but Control, and you are dead wrong in your assumption.
The mana cost on this is too prohibitive to go into "everything." As it stands it is a great sideboard card against control, but I'm not even sure I'd want it mainboard depending on the meta.
Although I agree with some on this forum that this card isn't as amazing as many are making it out to be, I also think some of the benefits of Obzedat are being overlooked.
Some are saying it is a SB card, and while it makes a fine one, I think its versatility for the MB is what makes it shine.
For instance, against midrange/aggro decks, The fact that it can swing for 5 while also dealing 2, puts on a heavy clock, and in conjunction with the other creatures and removal you will be playing, the 2 life gain every turn can make a huge difference- especially if the board gets clogged and you are gaining the 2 life without the opponent being able to swing back at you, all the while bleeding them down 2. The lifegain can add up real quick.
On top of that, this is optional, so you have the option to leave him down as a blocker.
Vs. Control it gets even better, as you swing for 7 while dodging all the best removal.
Even if removal that can hit him sees play, Its not like control decks are just going to drop their sorcery speed removal. So they will be playing maybe 2-4 cards that will hit him? Forcing your opponent to come up with very specific answers makes things very difficult for them.
So this is a guy that really wants to work in conjunction with the rest of your deck to makes things tough for the opponent.
Vs aggro using other cards to clog the board or removal to give him some free room to do work and race them while they are helpless and Vs control using other creatures that demand wrath effects while he dodges them and demands separate answers.
Obzedat is pretty obviously not a card that you jam 4 of into a deck, but I imagine will make for a very potent 2x in midrange builds with a 3rd sitting in the sideboard for UW control decks.
On top of that this guy seems like a design home run that will be real fun to play with. He gives you lots of very subtle options and plays very different roles vs different types of strategies. Having versatility and options is what lets you outplay the opponent. This guy makes me think something sort of like Loxodon Hierarch meets Geralf's Messenger.
This is a very good card, but I don't think it is any better than Angel of Serenity and so I wouldn't expect the price on this to be higher than the price on that. $50 isn't going to happen.
I think people (including the author) are probably overrating this a little bit. Constructed viable? Yes. Constructed powerhouse on the level of Thragtusk? I don't think so. It is a slow card that is good against other control decks. I might not even want to maindeck this in a midrange deck unless board sweeping control is everywhere. 1WWBB isn't going to be a guarantee either in decks that I'm assuming are going to be playing 3+ colors.
I think you are compareing apples and oranges though. Thrag is a powerful card, dont get me wrong but he rarely wins you games by himself, more he stops you from losing the games while something else does the heavy lifting. I suspect that once the new standard rolls around after the end of january you are gong to see a slightly slower format in which thrag doesnt shine quite like it used to without all the aggro decks.
It could just be me and you are welcome to quote me on it but I see much more room for powerful constructed control decks post GTC in which something like this will shine.
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thebeardedshuffler , what Standard have you been playing??? Most removal is instant speed???
Standard playable instant speed removal, lets lay it out.
Ultimate Price - doesn't hit him
Searing Spear- Doesn't hit him
Tragic Slip- most often won't kill him without chump blocking first
Azorius Charm- This one works, but atleast you get to drain again
Victim of Night- This one hits him, but restrictive CC
Selesnya Charm- This one hits him
Abrupt Decay- Doesn't hit him
Brimstone Volley- same as slip
Sorcery Speed Removal
Detention Sphere
Sever the Bloodline
Dreadbore
Bonfire of the Damned
Mizzium Mortars
Supreme Verdict
Terminus
Oblivion Ring
Liliana of the Veil
Rolling Temblor
Pillar of Flame
Devil's Play
So that is 3-5 out of 17 standard playable removal spells that hit him.
Of the 8 currently most played removal spells (Ultimate Price, Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere, Searing Spear, Bonfire of the Damned, Pillar of Flame, Terminus, Azorius Charm) only 1 hits him and it isn't even hard removal. (lets also note that only 3 of those spells are instant speed)
People keep comparing him to Thragtusk, and while he CAN server a similar purpose- he can also fill very different roles and can be a much larger pain to some decks. He is in different colors, and will get used in different decks. He also hits harder, and has more potential to be used in combination with the rest of your deck to set up gamebreaking scenarios (Not that Thraggy can't but again with different cards in a different strategy).
Also note that in racing scenarios, a lifeswing is a lifeswing, and gain 2 deal 2 might as well be deal 4 or gain 4, and he will most every time be able to trigger the drain at least twice, making a lifeswing of 8, which is more than Thragtusk if you are counting.
Also, like I said before- no deck is going to have its entire removal suit be cards that can take Obzedat out, and making the opponent have to find specific answers is a good way to put yourself into a winning situation.
I am by no means saying this guy is better than Thragtusk, but he is a completely different card.
Also, saying no evasion means he only hits for 2 is just beyond silly. I guess Tarmogoyf only hits for 0...
Also, talking about what you get when you blink Thragtusk isn't really relevant to the conversation, considering you need other cards to do that, while Obzedat blinks itself.
I think you are compareing apples and oranges though. Thrag is a powerful card, dont get me wrong but he rarely wins you games by himself, more he stops you from losing the games while something else does the heavy lifting. I suspect that once the new standard rolls around after the end of january you are gong to see a slightly slower format in which thrag doesnt shine quite like it used to without all the aggro decks.
It could just be me and you are welcome to quote me on it but I see much more room for powerful constructed control decks post GTC in which something like this will shine.
Well, surely those control decks aren't going to be straight BW, so you're talking adding at least U and possibly another color. Having to have double black and double white in a deck with a hefty amount of other mana is quite restrictive. How many are you going to be playing in your deck? 1?..maybe 2?
I get that it is hard to remove. But it is also slow and restrictive. That narrows down what it can and should be used in and how many copies you're going to run. Don't get me wrong, the card is for real. But it isn't going to be everywhere.
thebeardedshuffler , what Standard have you been playing??? Most removal is instant speed???
Standard played instant speed removal, lets lay it out.
Ultimate Price - doesn't hit him
Searing Spear- Doesn't hit him
Tragic Slip- most often won't kill him without chump blocking first
Azorius Charm- This one works, but atleast you get to drain again
Victim of Night- This one hits him, but restrictive CC
Selesnya Charm- This one hits him
Abrupt Decay- Doesn't hit him
Brimstone Volley- same as slip
Sorcery Speed Removal
Detention Sphere
Sever the Bloodline
Dreadbore
Bonfire of the Damned
Mizzium Mortars
Supreme Verdict
Terminus
Oblivion Ring
Liliana of the Veil
Rolling Temblor
Pillar of Flame
So that is 3-5 out of 17 standard playable removal spells that hit him.
..and the only real relevant one out of that list is Selesnya Charm atm, this is what makes him so dangerous. If another instant that sufficiently deals with him outside of G/W isn't released in GTC he'll be an absolute pain in the ass to deal with.
Here are the only cards that see a lot of play that can 1 for 1 if you remove him every end step barring trickery with like Alchemist's Refuge, or miracled on the opponents turn Terminus or Bonfire.
Well, surely those control decks aren't going to be straight BW, so you're talking adding at least U and possibly another color. Having to have double black and double white in a deck with a hefty amount of other mana is quite restrictive. How many are you going to be playing in your deck? 1?..maybe 2?
I get that it is hard to remove. But it is also slow and restrictive. That narrows down what it can and should be used in and how many copies you're going to run. Don't get me wrong, the card is for real. But it isn't going to be everywhere.
Odds are you'd run two and it honestly won't be all that difficult to summon him T5 with a full compliment of shocks.
Here are the only cards that see a lot of play that can 1 for 1 if you remove him every end step barring trickery with like Alchemist's Refuge, or miracled on the opponents turn Terminus.
Tragic Slip (Morbid must be activated)
Brimstone Volley (Morbid must be activated)
Selesnya Charm
Azorius Charm (Buys you a turn)
Obviously other red burn like 2x Searing Spear can get rid of him but that's giving card advantage which can matter.
Cards that may see more play just to deal with him, but first he would have to be an absolute lynch pin in the format wrecking face.
Murder
Victim of Night
I would suspect that there will be at least one, if not two cards in this set that are standard playable that will be capable of dealing with it. Possibly, but not necessarily, charms. It is too early to map out an entire metagame. (I'm not trying to hate on the card either, just stating the obvious.)
Odds are you'd run two and it honestly won't be all that difficult to summon him T5 with a full compliment of shocks.
I think you'd be surprised how often you'll be missing at least one mana required to cast this on curve if you're playing heavily into blue and/or other colors. And if you're adjusting your mana in such a way as to always be able to cast this, you're actually probably doing a disservice to your deck overall. Also, playing 12 shocklands might not be the greatest strategy around if Aggro/Burn remains viable.
Good card. Probably not a significant meta-changer except possibly for other control decks. I mostly play GW/Naya Aggro and Rakdos. Neither of those should be significantly worried about the card.
I think you'd be surprised how often you'll be missing at least one mana required to cast this on curve if you're playing heavily into blue and/or other colors. And if you're adjusting your mana in such a way as to always be able to cast this, you're actually probably doing a disservice to your deck overall. Also, playing 12 shocklands might not be the greatest strategy around if Aggro/Burn remains viable.
Good card. Probably not a significant meta-changer except possibly for other control decks.
Well, over the past week or so a bunch of Esper Control has been popping up on MODO and doing quite well. The only card that this really conflicts with is Dissipate, as the double U for Sphinx is easily attainable late game even with a slightly wonky mana base (shows up in a lot of 4C). I don't see much else this would conflict with currently tbh and the mana base can be further stretched with Godless Shrine and Watery Grave. I agree running 12 shocks is a bad idea but I'm betting you can find a happy medium.
I absolutely agree with you that at least one instant will be released that will be able to deal with him, but the list is already pretty tiny and there's only so much more it can grow through GTC. The only legit way to deal with him currently with out jumping through hoops (Slip, BV), limiting your removal (VotN) or just running sub-par removal (Murder) is Selesnya Charm. Unless there are several answers released this guy will remain quite resilient.
I don't know, I'm expecting big things. Maybe I'm overvaluing him but all I see is value and power.
Well, over the past week or so a bunch of Esper Control has been popping up on MODO and doing quite well. The only card that this really conflicts with is Dissipate, as the double U for Sphinx is easily attainable late game even with a slightly wonky mana base (shows up in a lot of 4C). I don't see much else this would conflict with currently tbh and the mana base can be further stretched with Godless Shrine and Watery Grave. I agree running 12 shocks is a bad idea but I'm betting you can find a happy medium.
I absolutely agree with you that at least one instant will be released that will be able to deal with him, but the list is already pretty tiny and there's only so much more it can grow through GTC. The only legit way to deal with him currently with out jumping through hoops (Slip, BV), limiting your removal (VotN) or just running sub-par removal (Murder) is Selesnya Charm. Unless there are several answers released this guy will remain quite resilient.
I don't know, I'm expecting big things. Maybe I'm overvaluing him but all I see is value and power.
Don't forget we have the M13/Innistrad duals. Hitting double black and double white on turn 5 while having other colored mana should really not be that hard. I don't know if you were around for the first standard with the shocklands but hitting your colors was easy(although we did have signets).
As for how powerful this guy will be, he is def not a 4 of in every BW deck but he is atleast a 1-2 of. The no evasion is a mute point since if your running BW you are probably playing your own removal. I mean lets say you rites this guy turn 4(possible) so turn 5 your op has lost 4, your swinging for 5, and probably putting swagtusk in play. This is a scenario that will def come up.
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Throw in a bit of countermagic, targeted removal, disruption and discard and you got yourself a sweet deck.
The other road would be throwing this in an esper control deck, use sweepers/sorin/souls to stall, and use the obzedat + drogskol reaver as a finisher.
Sweeper into obzedat is pretty disgusting, the one thing that the mothership hit spot on, is that it is impossible to race.
Sweep, opponent plays tusk, you play obzedat. Now you have a 7 damage swing versus a 3 damage swing each turn. And if your opponent keeps tusk back, you keep your obzedat back.
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thebeardedshuffler , what Standard have you been playing??? Most removal is instant speed???
Standard playable instant speed removal, lets lay it out.
Ultimate Price - doesn't hit him
Searing Spear- Doesn't hit him
Tragic Slip- most often won't kill him without chump blocking first
Azorius Charm- This one works, but atleast you get to drain again
Victim of Night- This one hits him, but restrictive CC
Selesnya Charm- This one hits him
Abrupt Decay- Doesn't hit him
Brimstone Volley- same as slip
Sorcery Speed Removal
Detention Sphere
Sever the Bloodline
Dreadbore
Bonfire of the Damned
Mizzium Mortars
Supreme Verdict
Terminus
Oblivion Ring
Liliana of the Veil
Rolling Temblor
Pillar of Flame
Devil's Play
So that is 3-5 out of 17 standard playable removal spells that hit him.
Of the 8 currently most played removal spells (Ultimate Price, Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere, Searing Spear, Bonfire of the Damned, Pillar of Flame, Terminus, Azorius Charm) only 1 hits him and it isn't even hard removal. (lets also note that only 3 of those spells are instant speed)
People keep comparing him to Thragtusk, and while he CAN server a similar purpose- he can also fill very different roles and can be a much larger pain to some decks. He is in different colors, and will get used in different decks. He also hits harder, and has more potential to be used in combination with the rest of your deck to set up gamebreaking scenarios (Not that Thraggy can't but again with different cards in a different strategy).
Also note that in racing scenarios, a lifeswing is a lifeswing, and gain 2 deal 2 might as well be deal 4 or gain 4, and he will most every time be able to trigger the drain at least twice, making a lifeswing of 8, which is more than Thragtusk if you are counting.
Also, like I said before- no deck is going to have its entire removal suit be cards that can take Obzedat out, and making the opponent have to find specific answers is a good way to put yourself into a winning situation.
I am by no means saying this guy is better than Thragtusk, but he is a completely different card.
Also, saying no evasion means he only hits for 2 is just beyond silly. I guess Tarmogoyf only hits for 0...
Also, talking about what you get when you blink Thragtusk isn't really relevant to the conversation, considering you need other cards to do that, while Obzedat blinks itself.
Granted, it's not THE answer against aggro decks. But I wouldn't call this card as BAD against aggro. You can opt to not blink out and just block, people.
do people even play those? lol i actually dont know but seems like they dont. i think is point is that MOST the removal being played this guy avoids. i would thinks thats more enough to consider him plausible . cant ask much more from a card guy
I really liked him, he can avoid sorcery speed removal, and can be poweful with some blink to avoid instant spot removal and yet give a 4 life swing. A good target for restoration angel.
On the worst scenario, for 5 manas, your opponent loses 2, you gain 2, he spend an instant speed removal. When this is the worst thing to happen, you know that it's not bad.
For him to be perfect, all he would need is to be 4/6 to avoid selesnya charm and morbid brimstone volley.
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Yeah this is what I wanted to point out. It's actually bad against aggro and you aren't using it to its fullest potential if you intend to do some blocking with it. It's a lot more progressive and aggressive minded than Thrag. I'd feel more comfortable comparing it to Thundermaw, as they are both quick clocks and usually spell doom for your opponent once they hit the table.
This card should have costed 6CMC.
I agree with this, and also think it's good for the format. Right now mega-ramp control decks are in; giving those decks an answer to other control decks that's also bad against aggro might balance things out a bit more.
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I do agree that Ghost Council could be good in midrange builds to help fight control. But even then, if it's a five drop that gets stopped quickly and only drains 2 life, it's not going to be good enough. I know that control isn't playing many ways to stop this card today (just Azorius Charm, Alcehmist's Refuge, and Resto Angel shenanigans, I think), but they can easily play Selesnya Charm, Victim of Night, Murder, or maybe even Urgent Exorcism. I guess what I mean is that this card doesn't scare me no matter what deck I'm playing.
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If you have to start playing Murder and Victim of Night in your decks to fight Ghost Council you are hurting your deck against other decks. You will be much worse against Zombies for instance. It changes how you have to build your deck, and you have to diversify your answers. The fact that you have to do that in order to deal with him shows how powerful of a card he is.
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I think people (including the author) are probably overrating this a little bit. Constructed viable? Yes. Constructed powerhouse on the level of Thragtusk? I don't think so. It is a slow card that is good against other control decks. I might not even want to maindeck this in a midrange deck unless board sweeping control is everywhere. 1WWBB isn't going to be a guarantee either in decks that I'm assuming are going to be playing 3+ colors.
I don't mean to say that it's not good, only that it doesn't go in every BW deck and that it's not going to be one of the best cards in Standard. It's a playable card, but it's just not the amazing card that everyone is making it out to be.
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Goes into everything but Control, and you are dead wrong in your assumption.
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The mana cost on this is too prohibitive to go into "everything." As it stands it is a great sideboard card against control, but I'm not even sure I'd want it mainboard depending on the meta.
Some are saying it is a SB card, and while it makes a fine one, I think its versatility for the MB is what makes it shine.
For instance, against midrange/aggro decks, The fact that it can swing for 5 while also dealing 2, puts on a heavy clock, and in conjunction with the other creatures and removal you will be playing, the 2 life gain every turn can make a huge difference- especially if the board gets clogged and you are gaining the 2 life without the opponent being able to swing back at you, all the while bleeding them down 2. The lifegain can add up real quick.
On top of that, this is optional, so you have the option to leave him down as a blocker.
Vs. Control it gets even better, as you swing for 7 while dodging all the best removal.
Even if removal that can hit him sees play, Its not like control decks are just going to drop their sorcery speed removal. So they will be playing maybe 2-4 cards that will hit him? Forcing your opponent to come up with very specific answers makes things very difficult for them.
So this is a guy that really wants to work in conjunction with the rest of your deck to makes things tough for the opponent.
Vs aggro using other cards to clog the board or removal to give him some free room to do work and race them while they are helpless and Vs control using other creatures that demand wrath effects while he dodges them and demands separate answers.
Obzedat is pretty obviously not a card that you jam 4 of into a deck, but I imagine will make for a very potent 2x in midrange builds with a 3rd sitting in the sideboard for UW control decks.
On top of that this guy seems like a design home run that will be real fun to play with. He gives you lots of very subtle options and plays very different roles vs different types of strategies. Having versatility and options is what lets you outplay the opponent. This guy makes me think something sort of like Loxodon Hierarch meets Geralf's Messenger.
I think you are compareing apples and oranges though. Thrag is a powerful card, dont get me wrong but he rarely wins you games by himself, more he stops you from losing the games while something else does the heavy lifting. I suspect that once the new standard rolls around after the end of january you are gong to see a slightly slower format in which thrag doesnt shine quite like it used to without all the aggro decks.
It could just be me and you are welcome to quote me on it but I see much more room for powerful constructed control decks post GTC in which something like this will shine.
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Standard playable instant speed removal, lets lay it out.
Ultimate Price - doesn't hit him
Searing Spear- Doesn't hit him
Tragic Slip- most often won't kill him without chump blocking first
Azorius Charm- This one works, but atleast you get to drain again
Victim of Night- This one hits him, but restrictive CC
Selesnya Charm- This one hits him
Abrupt Decay- Doesn't hit him
Brimstone Volley- same as slip
Sorcery Speed Removal
Detention Sphere
Sever the Bloodline
Dreadbore
Bonfire of the Damned
Mizzium Mortars
Supreme Verdict
Terminus
Oblivion Ring
Liliana of the Veil
Rolling Temblor
Pillar of Flame
Devil's Play
So that is 3-5 out of 17 standard playable removal spells that hit him.
Of the 8 currently most played removal spells (Ultimate Price, Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere, Searing Spear, Bonfire of the Damned, Pillar of Flame, Terminus, Azorius Charm) only 1 hits him and it isn't even hard removal. (lets also note that only 3 of those spells are instant speed)
People keep comparing him to Thragtusk, and while he CAN server a similar purpose- he can also fill very different roles and can be a much larger pain to some decks. He is in different colors, and will get used in different decks. He also hits harder, and has more potential to be used in combination with the rest of your deck to set up gamebreaking scenarios (Not that Thraggy can't but again with different cards in a different strategy).
Also note that in racing scenarios, a lifeswing is a lifeswing, and gain 2 deal 2 might as well be deal 4 or gain 4, and he will most every time be able to trigger the drain at least twice, making a lifeswing of 8, which is more than Thragtusk if you are counting.
Also, like I said before- no deck is going to have its entire removal suit be cards that can take Obzedat out, and making the opponent have to find specific answers is a good way to put yourself into a winning situation.
I am by no means saying this guy is better than Thragtusk, but he is a completely different card.
Also, saying no evasion means he only hits for 2 is just beyond silly. I guess Tarmogoyf only hits for 0...
Also, talking about what you get when you blink Thragtusk isn't really relevant to the conversation, considering you need other cards to do that, while Obzedat blinks itself.
Well, surely those control decks aren't going to be straight BW, so you're talking adding at least U and possibly another color. Having to have double black and double white in a deck with a hefty amount of other mana is quite restrictive. How many are you going to be playing in your deck? 1?..maybe 2?
I get that it is hard to remove. But it is also slow and restrictive. That narrows down what it can and should be used in and how many copies you're going to run. Don't get me wrong, the card is for real. But it isn't going to be everywhere.
..and the only real relevant one out of that list is Selesnya Charm atm, this is what makes him so dangerous. If another instant that sufficiently deals with him outside of G/W isn't released in GTC he'll be an absolute pain in the ass to deal with.
Tragic Slip (Morbid must be activated)
Brimstone Volley (Morbid must be activated)
Selesnya Charm
Azorius Charm (Buys you a turn)
Obviously other red burn like 2x Searing Spear can get rid of him but that's giving card advantage which can matter.
Cards that may see more play just to deal with him, but first he would have to be an absolute lynch pin in the format wrecking face.
Murder
Victim of Night
Unsummon effects
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Odds are you'd run two and it honestly won't be all that difficult to summon him T5 with a full compliment of shocks.
I would suspect that there will be at least one, if not two cards in this set that are standard playable that will be capable of dealing with it. Possibly, but not necessarily, charms. It is too early to map out an entire metagame. (I'm not trying to hate on the card either, just stating the obvious.)
I think you'd be surprised how often you'll be missing at least one mana required to cast this on curve if you're playing heavily into blue and/or other colors. And if you're adjusting your mana in such a way as to always be able to cast this, you're actually probably doing a disservice to your deck overall. Also, playing 12 shocklands might not be the greatest strategy around if Aggro/Burn remains viable.
Good card. Probably not a significant meta-changer except possibly for other control decks. I mostly play GW/Naya Aggro and Rakdos. Neither of those should be significantly worried about the card.
Well, over the past week or so a bunch of Esper Control has been popping up on MODO and doing quite well. The only card that this really conflicts with is Dissipate, as the double U for Sphinx is easily attainable late game even with a slightly wonky mana base (shows up in a lot of 4C). I don't see much else this would conflict with currently tbh and the mana base can be further stretched with Godless Shrine and Watery Grave. I agree running 12 shocks is a bad idea but I'm betting you can find a happy medium.
I absolutely agree with you that at least one instant will be released that will be able to deal with him, but the list is already pretty tiny and there's only so much more it can grow through GTC. The only legit way to deal with him currently with out jumping through hoops (Slip, BV), limiting your removal (VotN) or just running sub-par removal (Murder) is Selesnya Charm. Unless there are several answers released this guy will remain quite resilient.
I don't know, I'm expecting big things. Maybe I'm overvaluing him but all I see is value and power.
Don't forget we have the M13/Innistrad duals. Hitting double black and double white on turn 5 while having other colored mana should really not be that hard. I don't know if you were around for the first standard with the shocklands but hitting your colors was easy(although we did have signets).
As for how powerful this guy will be, he is def not a 4 of in every BW deck but he is atleast a 1-2 of. The no evasion is a mute point since if your running BW you are probably playing your own removal. I mean lets say you rites this guy turn 4(possible) so turn 5 your op has lost 4, your swinging for 5, and probably putting swagtusk in play. This is a scenario that will def come up.
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Karrthus, Tyrant of Dragons
Some of you may think that you have made great mistakes in your lives, and perhaps you have. But let me ask you this.... did you ever play strip poker with two fat chicks and win?
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If they will print another good cheap orzhov spirit, I will be playing myself an esper spirits deck.
Sorin/souls/dungeon geist/drogskol captain/obzedat/2cmc Orzhov spirit?
Throw in a bit of countermagic, targeted removal, disruption and discard and you got yourself a sweet deck.
The other road would be throwing this in an esper control deck, use sweepers/sorin/souls to stall, and use the obzedat + drogskol reaver as a finisher.
Sweeper into obzedat is pretty disgusting, the one thing that the mothership hit spot on, is that it is impossible to race.
Sweep, opponent plays tusk, you play obzedat. Now you have a 7 damage swing versus a 3 damage swing each turn. And if your opponent keeps tusk back, you keep your obzedat back.
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The whip is kept for special occasions
Dies to Tribute to Hunger and Murder
do people even play those? lol i actually dont know but seems like they dont. i think is point is that MOST the removal being played this guy avoids. i would thinks thats more enough to consider him plausible . cant ask much more from a card guy
Let's all talk about how he dies to removal!!!
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This is a very good card.
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On the worst scenario, for 5 manas, your opponent loses 2, you gain 2, he spend an instant speed removal. When this is the worst thing to happen, you know that it's not bad.
For him to be perfect, all he would need is to be 4/6 to avoid selesnya charm and morbid brimstone volley.