I am pretty much the only one in my playgroup of about 6 friends who keeps up to date with new cards and plays online, and most of my friends are still beginners. I usually build and order decks for them online. But recently, I told one of my friends about the RtR spoilers in mtgsalvation.com and he checked them all out. He doesn't have much experience... he has a 2012 intro pack and a decent reanimator deck I made him.
Anyways, today in school he was talking about some of the cards and he mentioned the lands that make you lose 2 life. I asked him what his opinion on those were. He said he didn't think they were very good. I told him that they are actually very good lands and are quite expensive. He kind of understood why they were good after I explained a little bit.
I've been playing for 17 years. I'm just now understanding why the shocklands are so good.
Usually I just drop them into play tapped unless the game depends on getting an extra/colored mana.
This is logical. When you are new, shock lands are lands that tap for 2 mana and cost 2 life..nothing more.
When I was still getting into Magic(around Unlimited/Revised), we didn't think dual lands were any big deal. They were just 2 lands in one..meh, whatever. It takes awhile playing tournaments before you realize the value in that.
This happened a lit in my old LGS during the original Rav block. So many people passed them in draft or would trade them instantly because they hated opening lands as their rare or didn't want to pay life up front for them.
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The Hobbit
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This is logical. When you are new, shock lands are lands that tap for 2 mana and cost 2 life..nothing more.
When I was still getting into Magic(around Unlimited/Revised), we didn't think dual lands were any big deal. They were just 2 lands in one..meh, whatever. It takes awhile playing tournaments before you realize the value in that.
Yeah, I remember when my friends and I started playing during Unlimited era, and we couldn't trade off the dual lands we opened fast enough. I remember I traded an Underground Sea for a Shivan Dragon, and I thought I had swindled the motherloving spit out of that guy.
I still regret being a dumb 4th grader when Magic came out.
It's part of the reason they're rare. Newer players aren't aware of the benefit of paying life for an immediate benefit. Not to mention that their lack of knowledge concerning possible card interactions makes the double land type less important to them.
Only reason I understood the value of shocklands is when I saw the birth of Modern, and then saw that they can be fetched because they are basic lands. That to me just blew my mind.
Shocks are very, very good, and I have spent a lot of time recently explaining why they are good to many a new players at my local shop that for some reason has been exploding with new players recently.
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Only reason I understood the value of shocklands is when I saw the birth of Modern, and then saw that they can be fetched because they are basic lands. That to me just blew my mind.
Just wanted to clarify something here; shocklands are NOT actually basic lands. They share basic land TYPES (forest, mountain, etc.) and are thus fetchable by cards that search for basic land types (Perilous Forays) but not by anything that searches for a basic land specifically (Terramorphic Expanse). Still nuts-good cards, but that misconception is an important one to clarify.
This goes without saying amongst old players, but if you drop a shockland on turn one (tapped or untapped), you can drop a M10-M13 dual-land untapped provided the right type on turn 2. I think new players can benefit from that info.
I see lots of newer players being ripped off in trades at the prerelease.
Someone should make a poster with the 5 shocks and the message "these cards are worth a lot".
A lot of new players don't even care.
Two weeks ago I traded a friend of mine two Lashwrithe for a Cavern of Souls. He doesn't play standard, just our casual and commander, but I told him it was an expensive card. He didn't care, looked through my entire collection and was happy with the Lashwrithes.
Also, being magic club president at my school, I see similar happen all the time with others. No one there (that I've seen) or myself ever try to swindle them, we just aren't going to force them to take more cards.
This is eternal story about rare lands and new players, no? I remember how I was pissed off with "my first opened Mythic is stupid mana giving cobra!". Thank goodness the local playgroup consists of newbie-friendly people.
BTW, Abrupt Decay is going to repeat the same fate - this isn't going to kill many things in Limited, but looks quite good for Legacy.
It's the same deal with Fetchlands, people just don't appreciate them. They're better cards than actual dual lands, newer players are "turned-off" by the loss of life and don't understand all the benefits of thinning your deck/shuffling/waiting to find out which color(s) you want to grab.
There are a lot of things newer players dont understand, like thinking Index is a replacement for ponder. -_-
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
There are several things to consider when talking about duals and a lot of it is lost on new players. To make things worse (for many players), original duals and shocklands are even more valuable when paired with the appropriate fetchlands. Unfortunately all that translates into several hundred dollars for sets of any of it. Shocks and original duals also tend to devalue any other land that produces multiple mana as well, outside of a standard environment in which they don't exist.
It kind of sucks that the game doesn't explain things like this to new players sooner than through trial and error and knowing someone who can explain it to you. However, if they explained to you from the get go that the majority of the cards they print every few months are terrible and only there to troll new players, they'd never make money.
New players start playing a game where it seems life matters and you start with 20 points of it. The first reaction is to protect those life points for all you can. Once those newer players learn how to use those 19 life points effectively as another resource to win the game, they become better players.
Back in Alpha/Beta days, I can remember opening moxens and thinking I can get a land to do that same thing and being very disappointed. It took a while to understand why and how the mox were powerful and better then those lands I was comparing it to.
Every generation has its quirks and learning experiences.
All in all i think WotC should make more drawback cards...I think people will learn that reducing mana costs and working around drawbacks is fun and be part of the understanding/learning curve of the game
I agree, but often the drawback is mitigated and the card broken (Lion's Eye Diamond, Necropotence/Yawgmoth's Bargain, Memory Jar, Skullclamp, etc etc). It's a fine line to walk.
I started toying around with MTG with Alara when I bought a Fat Pack and an intro but I really started playing with Zendikar. I think people can sense the new player and can feign being the helpful experienced player.
I recall people being really tricky about it. They would ask me what color I wanted to play and then try to trade me out of all the valuable rares and lands I had for junk rares in my determined "color". People were quick to take all the duals off my hands rather quickly and I remember not really understanding why. World Queller for a Scalding Tarn, indeed.
This is one of the reasons Wizards said it took so long to reprint them, because they look pretty bad to new players. And to be fair their value isn't immediately apparent. If they didn't have basic land types they'd be awful.
~ Acarna
They're still really good even without basic landtypes
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They are actually worse than Core Set duals without fetches in the format, minus some interactions like Arbor Elf
and Farseek, and Liliana, and her Shade, and Mutilate, and the M13 "gets +1/+1 if" guys, and Lost in the Woods, and Ranger's Path, and Xwalk dudes... etc etc
But yeah, without knowing more about what's in RTR, there is still plenty of reasons to notice the land types.
I don't understand this concept of "new players hate paying life". I started playing a year and a half ago and my first set was New Phyrexia, and I thought it was just versatile/broken. I've seen it thrown around a few times by the big guys at Wizards but is there any proof this?
They are actually worse than Core Set duals without fetches in the format, minus some interactions like Arbor Elf
They're not strcictly worse, got one in your opening hand and want to make a first turn play, the shock will let you do it for two life, the core set dual says no.
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I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
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Anyways, today in school he was talking about some of the cards and he mentioned the lands that make you lose 2 life. I asked him what his opinion on those were. He said he didn't think they were very good. I told him that they are actually very good lands and are quite expensive. He kind of understood why they were good after I explained a little bit.
Just a random story I thought I'd share...
Usually I just drop them into play tapped unless the game depends on getting an extra/colored mana.
When I was still getting into Magic(around Unlimited/Revised), we didn't think dual lands were any big deal. They were just 2 lands in one..meh, whatever. It takes awhile playing tournaments before you realize the value in that.
-Thorin Oakenshield
The Hobbit
J.R.R. Tolkien
Yeah, I remember when my friends and I started playing during Unlimited era, and we couldn't trade off the dual lands we opened fast enough. I remember I traded an Underground Sea for a Shivan Dragon, and I thought I had swindled the motherloving spit out of that guy.
I still regret being a dumb 4th grader when Magic came out.
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Shocks are very, very good, and I have spent a lot of time recently explaining why they are good to many a new players at my local shop that for some reason has been exploding with new players recently.
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
Just wanted to clarify something here; shocklands are NOT actually basic lands. They share basic land TYPES (forest, mountain, etc.) and are thus fetchable by cards that search for basic land types (Perilous Forays) but not by anything that searches for a basic land specifically (Terramorphic Expanse). Still nuts-good cards, but that misconception is an important one to clarify.
Someone should make a poster with the 5 shocks and the message "these cards are worth a lot".
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
A lot of new players don't even care.
Two weeks ago I traded a friend of mine two Lashwrithe for a Cavern of Souls. He doesn't play standard, just our casual and commander, but I told him it was an expensive card. He didn't care, looked through my entire collection and was happy with the Lashwrithes.
Also, being magic club president at my school, I see similar happen all the time with others. No one there (that I've seen) or myself ever try to swindle them, we just aren't going to force them to take more cards.
BTW, Abrupt Decay is going to repeat the same fate - this isn't going to kill many things in Limited, but looks quite good for Legacy.
There are a lot of things newer players dont understand, like thinking Index is a replacement for ponder. -_-
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
It kind of sucks that the game doesn't explain things like this to new players sooner than through trial and error and knowing someone who can explain it to you. However, if they explained to you from the get go that the majority of the cards they print every few months are terrible and only there to troll new players, they'd never make money.
Back in Alpha/Beta days, I can remember opening moxens and thinking I can get a land to do that same thing and being very disappointed. It took a while to understand why and how the mox were powerful and better then those lands I was comparing it to.
Every generation has its quirks and learning experiences.
I agree, but often the drawback is mitigated and the card broken (Lion's Eye Diamond, Necropotence/Yawgmoth's Bargain, Memory Jar, Skullclamp, etc etc). It's a fine line to walk.
I recall people being really tricky about it. They would ask me what color I wanted to play and then try to trade me out of all the valuable rares and lands I had for junk rares in my determined "color". People were quick to take all the duals off my hands rather quickly and I remember not really understanding why. World Queller for a Scalding Tarn, indeed.
They're still really good even without basic landtypes
and Farseek, and Liliana, and her Shade, and Mutilate, and the M13 "gets +1/+1 if" guys, and Lost in the Woods, and Ranger's Path, and Xwalk dudes... etc etc
But yeah, without knowing more about what's in RTR, there is still plenty of reasons to notice the land types.