In my standard Naya, I play this anytime over any Cavern of Souls.
Wut? I've been jamming Naya for a while, and am a little confused at this. Wouldn't cutting Cavern for this (in my opinon mediocre) card suddenly destroy your ability to produce colored mana for the billions of humans on that list?
Or are you using a different mana-base than mine which is the following
4 Cavern
4 R/G Fast Land
4 W/G Fast Land
4 Gavony Township
6 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Wut? I've been jamming Naya for a while, and am a little confused at this. Wouldn't cutting Cavern for this (in my opinon mediocre) card suddenly destroy your ability to produce colored mana for the billions of humans on that list?
Don't get me wrong, Cavern is fine. But I am annoyed when it prevents me from casting that turn 2 Strangleroot Geist or stuff like that. I just add more basic lands. Naya has enough mana accel/fetch/aggression that playing around caverns is okay in my books.
But, again, I wouldn't certainly stick 4 of this in a Naya deck, for the same reasons that I don't play the Caverns.
The real question when playing a card like this would be finding a reason not to play it.
The only decks that wouldn't want at least 3-4 of these in a red manabase are those that need quick access to Red mana, or simply can't afford to have non-colored lands in their deck. Realistically, that isn't a lot. This card is really good, and unlike a manland, once you have the creature you don't have to play mana every turn to activate it.
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Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
Good card is good. Made for monored control, not balls to the walls aggro. Might see play in B/R too.
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"Bound by hell-forged chains and fate-haunted circumstance. Well, then--let it be thus so--and men will have cause to tremble and flee when they hear the names of Elric of Melinbone and Stormbringer, his sword. We are two of a kind--produced by an age which has deserted us. Let us give this age cause to hate us!”
Your theoretically spending 9 mana (tapping 3 lands) and a card to have an Instant speed 4/4 that is uncounterable.
That's just false though. You are paying 3 mana at a time over multiple turns, and the only "cost" to your deck is one less basic land. ANY AND EVERY deck that doesn't need this to be a basic (or another nonbasic) will play it, because it's like free card advantage in the midgame.
I would play this card in modern if it didn't sac or even better didn't need to be tapped to put a counter on it. I think it's too bad for that format. Yes, I understand the mana you're spending is mana that would otherwise be unused because I play Kher Keep but it still just doesn't seem good enough for that format. I'm sure it will fit into some decks but its impact would be very small on the grand scale.
Can't weigh in on how good it is in standard, don't play.
As others have said, you don't have to justify including this in your deck, you have to justify NOT including it. In decks where it doesn't hurt the mana base (most mono-R, and I'm sure plenty of R/x decks) This can't do anything but help you. At the very worst, you play this land and it taps for mana the whole game. That's exactly the same functionality that you'd have gotten out of the mountain it replaced, at literally no cost to your tempo, ability to develop a board presence, mana consistency, or anything else. In decks that can support a colorless land, this is an all upside card.
As others have said, you don't have to justify including this in your deck, you have to justify NOT including it. In decks where it doesn't hurt the mana base.
Great card. Not amazing, but much better than people are taking it for atm. It's not for every deck (or even 95% of decks), but any red deck that can use colorless mana without losing tempo has NO REASON not to play this card.
What many people are missing is that you don't need to pay into this card for it to be good. It is a land that taps for mana the turn you play it. That's all you really need to know to know that this card will see tournament play.
If you play this land and only use it for mana (without ever losing tempo), you have lost NOTHING. It is as if this land was another basic land.
What the card gives you in return for a potential loss in tempo (which can be almost entirely negated with deckbuilding) is OPTIONS.
When your deck is sputtering out in mid-late game, you have somewhere to put your mana for a potential return. If you're doing it right, you had nothing to spend that mana on, anyways. That is no loss of tempo or card advantage for a moderate payoff down the line.
Obviously the card isn't going to become a format staple due to its limitations and the seemingly low power of red right now, but in decks that CAN run this card, it is nothing but upside when compared to the basic mountain that it is replacing in your deck.
This is like barbarian ring in that in the right aggressive deck its just fine as a two of really. There is no real opportunity cost in playing it in mono red, while barb ring is better then this card any day for quite a few reasons it serves a similar role in standard.
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Magic players have made it abundantly clear that their time is worth $0/hour in their opinion, so no sympathy there. -DR jeebus or something
Turn 2, Thrummingbird
Turn 3, this land with a counter, then swing for the second counter.
Turn 4, Make token, swing with it.
Yeah, I know, this plan is STUPIDLY disruptable.
The card you're trying to think of is Contagion Clasp.
The deck you're trying to think of is grixis control.
The result you're trying to think of is AW3S0ME!
It's a 4/4 every other turn. What's not to love?
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
Quote from LandBoySteve »
Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
i agree that this is not a good land, but plz... never call a land with an effect bad. rdw, for example, could easely add one or two of those in an otherwise mono-mountain base. of course, you can say that there are better options, but this one would be better than mono-mountains already.
worst card in Set so far - Angelic mercy
worst rare card in the set - wits end (h.m. to touch of the eternal)
worst card ever - sorrow's path (h.m. Wood Elemental)
= Hellion Crucible is not the "baddest" card.
As for the card itself, I think it's comparable to Stalking Stones. The mana commitment is a bit larger, but it's spread over multiple turns. In the unlikely case that Draw-Go becomes viable, this could serve as a win condition, although I won't hold my breath, and Thundermaw Hellkite looks like a much better win condition for UR anyway...
this card might actually be okay if u didn't have to sacrifice it, it would probably be too good then. I mean Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree and Urza's Factory were both ridiculous.
As it is, I dont think it's very good.
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Standard:
Bident Layers B Devotion RG Devotion UW Control Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod Legacy: DeathBlade RUG Delver BUG Control
I don't think the opponents of this card realize that it's additional power for absolutely no cost. It's stupid expensive to pull off, but it's only when you need or want to. You can choose to treat it as a colorless land the entire game if you want to, it won't slow you down much if you are casting spells with it. But, if you are going all-in with it, and complaining about it being bad, then you are an idiot.
I publicly state that I believe most "haters" are idiots. They keep evaluating cards based on the worst ways to use them. Either they genuinely believe everyone is that stupid, or they genuinely believe that their assessment is correct, and has no gaping flaws in the logic.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Fine, fine. I guess this isn't all that bad if the format slows down, but do we see that happening? Is RDW really the deck that would like this anyway? A fast, balls-out aggro deck doesn't want to wait four turns for something to do, it wants to have won by then. How many people really build decks with "oh, just in case I have literally NOTHING to spend my mana on..." in mind? I really think it's too slow for most mono-Red decks right now. With Koth rotating after a couple months, one of Red's best midrange/ control cards will be leaving us. We might get some nice Red midrange stuff in RTR, though.
As for the card itself, I think it's comparable to Stalking Stones. The mana commitment is a bit larger, but it's spread over multiple turns. In the unlikely case that Draw-Go becomes viable, this could serve as a win condition, although I won't hold my breath, and Thundermaw Hellkite looks like a much better win condition for UR anyway...
Yeah, I was paying homage to Stephen Colbert's "George Bush: Great President, or THE GREATEST President?" Didn't quite work, but meh.
I agree with your assessment though. There are better Red finishers out there (or will be coming in at the same time as this.) Once again, do people really build decks with "well I'll probably have mana to spare" in mind?
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I got a foil 'Walker! A FOIL 'WALKER! Oh, it's just Tibalt... *Rrrip*
Wut? I've been jamming Naya for a while, and am a little confused at this. Wouldn't cutting Cavern for this (in my opinon mediocre) card suddenly destroy your ability to produce colored mana for the billions of humans on that list?
Or are you using a different mana-base than mine which is the following
4 Cavern
4 R/G Fast Land
4 W/G Fast Land
4 Gavony Township
6 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Don't get me wrong, Cavern is fine. But I am annoyed when it prevents me from casting that turn 2 Strangleroot Geist or stuff like that. I just add more basic lands. Naya has enough mana accel/fetch/aggression that playing around caverns is okay in my books.
But, again, I wouldn't certainly stick 4 of this in a Naya deck, for the same reasons that I don't play the Caverns.
The only decks that wouldn't want at least 3-4 of these in a red manabase are those that need quick access to Red mana, or simply can't afford to have non-colored lands in their deck. Realistically, that isn't a lot. This card is really good, and unlike a manland, once you have the creature you don't have to play mana every turn to activate it.
Standard:
Glissa and Friends:symg::symb:
Modern:
Budget Jund:symg::symb::symr:
Commander:
Jor Kadeen Voltron:symw::symr:
No, it really isn't.
Your theoretically spending 9 mana (tapping 3 lands) and a card to have an Instant speed 4/4 that is uncounterable.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
That's just false though. You are paying 3 mana at a time over multiple turns, and the only "cost" to your deck is one less basic land. ANY AND EVERY deck that doesn't need this to be a basic (or another nonbasic) will play it, because it's like free card advantage in the midgame.
Can't weigh in on how good it is in standard, don't play.
Turn 3, this land with a counter, then swing for the second counter.
Turn 4, Make token, swing with it.
Yeah, I know, this plan is STUPIDLY disruptable.
That sounds like a justification to me.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
What many people are missing is that you don't need to pay into this card for it to be good. It is a land that taps for mana the turn you play it. That's all you really need to know to know that this card will see tournament play.
If you play this land and only use it for mana (without ever losing tempo), you have lost NOTHING. It is as if this land was another basic land.
What the card gives you in return for a potential loss in tempo (which can be almost entirely negated with deckbuilding) is OPTIONS.
When your deck is sputtering out in mid-late game, you have somewhere to put your mana for a potential return. If you're doing it right, you had nothing to spend that mana on, anyways. That is no loss of tempo or card advantage for a moderate payoff down the line.
Obviously the card isn't going to become a format staple due to its limitations and the seemingly low power of red right now, but in decks that CAN run this card, it is nothing but upside when compared to the basic mountain that it is replacing in your deck.
U Soramaro, First to Dream U (decklist)
W Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite W (decklist)
Nath of the Gilt-Leaf (decklist)
Glissa, The Traitor (decklist)
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Borborygmos, Enraged (decklist)
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WRG Uril, the Miststalker WRG (decklist)
Magic players have made it abundantly clear that their time is worth $0/hour in their opinion, so no sympathy there. -DR jeebus or something
The card you're trying to think of is Contagion Clasp.
The deck you're trying to think of is grixis control.
The result you're trying to think of is AW3S0ME!
It's a 4/4 every other turn. What's not to love?
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
worst rare card in the set - wits end (h.m. to touch of the eternal)
worst card ever - sorrow's path (h.m. Wood Elemental)
= Hellion Crucible is not the "baddest" card.
any questions?
i think that you have been playing against delver for too long and already forgot abount RDW shenanigans
Chile!
As for the card itself, I think it's comparable to Stalking Stones. The mana commitment is a bit larger, but it's spread over multiple turns. In the unlikely case that Draw-Go becomes viable, this could serve as a win condition, although I won't hold my breath, and Thundermaw Hellkite looks like a much better win condition for UR anyway...
As it is, I dont think it's very good.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
I publicly state that I believe most "haters" are idiots. They keep evaluating cards based on the worst ways to use them. Either they genuinely believe everyone is that stupid, or they genuinely believe that their assessment is correct, and has no gaping flaws in the logic.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Yeah, I was paying homage to Stephen Colbert's "George Bush: Great President, or THE GREATEST President?" Didn't quite work, but meh.
I agree with your assessment though. There are better Red finishers out there (or will be coming in at the same time as this.) Once again, do people really build decks with "well I'll probably have mana to spare" in mind?
And it WILL be played in a competitive deck. I guarantee it.
Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0