Seriously, a land that makes you choose between generating (colourless) mana or paying a total of 6 over 3 turns for a 4/4 with Haste?! Wow, give us a proper manland: 1R to turn it into a 4/4 Hellion until end of turn. This though? This is the first card I've seen in the set that disappoints me this badly. Not even in limited play will this be any good.
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I got a foil 'Walker! A FOIL 'WALKER! Oh, it's just Tibalt... *Rrrip*
Sphinx is really good. Control will play it and be able to protect him just fine, hes a much better finisher then Jwar Isle and thats saying a lot considering how good he alone is. Bazzar Trader.dec now has 16 threaten effects. Thats really, really, really,really good. Really good.
Monored could use it in limited if monored turns out to be a thing. That's about it.
How so? If it's the only thing you have to do then it's a good backup. Red's not too mana intensive with the majority of their good spells so it can handle it. Look. It's not awesome, but it's not terrible. It'll see some play.
How is this card in any way weak? It's lategame damage that is free in terms of deck construction. You don't have to take out any other cards except for some land out of your deck. You play two of these and you have an inevitable source of damage. And the mana you use up is mana you wouldn't have used otherwise anyway.
This card is very, very good.
I'm wondering how you think it's free? It forces you to play a colorless land. It forces you to spend 3 mana for 3 turns. It forces you to sac the card. So, to recap, it costs mana, turns, card, and deck slots. So really, it's mostly like every other card in a deck, but more expensive.
It does provide mana on other turns where not activating, but that doesn't make it free.
What a waste. Yea sac the land, cause its not bad enough already. Its to be expected that a rare land would be worthless in this homelands m13. M13 is just comical at this point, with its laughable card power. What a waste of time.
I'm wondering how you think it's free? It forces you to play a colorless land. It forces you to spend 3 mana for 3 turns. It forces you to sac the card. So, to recap, it costs mana, turns, card, and deck slots. So really, it's mostly like every other card in a deck, but more expensive.
It does provide mana on other turns where not activating, but that doesn't make it free.
It's because the marginal utility of having copies of this card in a particular deck style is greater than the marginal utility of having mountains number 18-22 or 20-24. Unless there are RR, RRR, and RRRR mana costs that you NEED to be hitting on 2, 3 and 4, those last mountains really aren't doing much, where as even the small bit of value that's eeked out when you're efficently using as MUCH of your mana each turn as possible- as well as setting up potential bluffs with your various cards in hand will greatly trump it.
There will be a time where someone gets blown out by a removal spell because they stupidly attack in to a red deck with three untapped lands because they think the person is just going to put another counter on the Hellion Crucible. That's just as much value out of the card as the 4/4 that might show up a few turns later.
Those "deck slots" are just land slots, which would probably just have some basics there anyway. The colorless factor is really a very minor thing, it's really not that bad at all. It doesn't force you to tap three for three turns, that's only if you want to. There's a huge difference there, it gives you options, you can either A) Use a land that is slightly worse than a basic, but gets nullified by your dual lands pretty much. Or B) Have a threat on board when you have nothing in hand. IDK about you, but that sounds always better than always tapping for red mana, ala mountain. Options are always better than no options.
What a waste. Yea sac the land, cause its not bad enough already.
Have you ever run any cards that say "draw a card; discard a card"? How many times did you dump a land later in the game when you didn't need it? Ok, now, instead of drawing a card, you're dumping that land to turn it into a body. Doesn't sound like a waste to me.
Its to be expected that a rare land would be worthless in this homelands m13. M13 is just comical at this point, with its laughable card power. What a waste of time.
As if we've had crazy powerful cards from the last 5-6 sets.
It's not tremendously good, sure, but it's not awful either. A midrange R/x deck might value the ability to spring a surprise 4/4 on the opponent after fully charging the land.
It certainly doesn't deserve the hate that it is getting from these common 'haters' but then again, it was to be expected. If it doesn't win you the game immediately it'll get hated upon. I wonder how these people evaluate the revealed cards.
Just because it doesn't fit in an existing deck doesn't mean that it is worthless. Mind you.
I could see the Crucible working in some control deck. Whether it would be a form of Draw-Go, or some other X/R combination. It is nice that you can time the Hellion at instant speed, that alone makes it already far better than some people give it credit for.
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Its not that its that terrible, its the small things that get me. The colorless land, and u can only use it once. Why couldnt we just get a real manland.
gargoyle castle saw some serious play and was way worse.imo. its a land that makes a dude somehow.it will be played in standard
The cards may function similarly but serve completely different purposes; so, I'd be hesitant to compare them. Gargoyle Castle is much more of a control deck's card, whereas Crucible would more likely fit in an aggro or midrange deck.
Crucible is not bad, but I still contend that it's underwhelming and they probably could have made it a bit better without making it absurd.
I really don't see it as a 4-of in any competitive level.
In Limited it's certainly strong; any land that can become a creature usually is worth a look regardless of what it costs to get there. This one's definitly a good one, though not a high pick for draft.
As for the thread's title, It's definitly not Bad and it's a very far cry from THE BADDEST.
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This card is actually quite good. In a deck that has a good mana base, these could replace basic lands with no serious repercussions. It doesn't come in tapped, and the token has haste which makes an opponent at low life not able to tap out or send all of his attackers in the later game. A 4/4 haste token is also amazing against planeswalkers like Liliana of the Veil.
This land is the BADDEST. I mean that in the "are you a bad enough dude to save the president" type of way, not an "omg it sux" way.
IDK if counterspells will still be a thing very soon, but I could imagine this being great as a side-deck card against MUC if it ever returns.
As others have mentioned, the opportunity cost is very, very low. You don't have to pay any of its costs unless you have spare mana, and if you do, a 4/4 with haste is probably going to be pretty nice. Basically any deck running red as a primary color can support 1 or 2 of these without loosing anything and gaining versatility.
If you're trying to win games regularly with it, you're gonna have a bad time. In a mono red deck where you don't care about color fixing, would you rather fill a land slot with this that can become a creature 5% of the time (or whatever %), or a mountain, that will become a creature 0% of the time?
Basically in anything other than mono red you won't want to run this, but somewhere down the line, someone will win a game with this that they would not have if they had been running only mountains.
I think this will be great in Limited. It's no bomb, but it's definitely going to keep your opponent on-edge when you have your three counters on it.
Also, keep in mind that we don't know what's coming down the road, either. This set was designed with RTR in mind as well, and we don't know what cool stuff will come into play then. If there's anything that recurs land regularly in either now or the near future, this could get way better than it is now.
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I don't know how good of an option this would be, but it could see play in a U/R Legacy Standstill. Compared to Mutavault or Mishra's Factory which are both 8-10 turn clocks starting turn 3, this is a 4 turn clock starting turn 5. Also, this would be a much better blocker than either land. In addition, you can leave counter magic open the entire time. I'll be honest, I don't play legacy, so I could be very wrong about this, but it could be interesting.
I would hesitate to play this in limited, because mana bases are often tight and 9 mana for a 4/4 is pretty bad for tempo. That comes down to how tempo oriented the format turns out. If it's slow and not tempo based, I'll play this.
I don't think this has a place in Constructed. Every format besides Standard has much better manlands in pretty much every color and combination. Even without good manlands in Standard, this still shouldn't make the cut. The % of the time that it participates in winning the game will likely be less than the % of the time it hurts you by being colorless. If it generated red, I would have agreed there was no reason not to play 1-2 in RR decks, even though it will almost never be useful. As-is, it's just bad.
@RealOG: How do you intend to turn this into a creature by turn 5? Turn 6 is the earliest possible without ramp, and then you've spent 9 mana over turns 4/5/6 to make that happen. That's not even close to efficient enough for Legacy.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
At first I didn't think this card was any good, but now I know better. It provides a great mana sink for RDW for some late game juice, the deck's biggest weakness. Even bettet, it lets a control build lay down some damage after a Bonfire. All with a minimal drawback. I promise this card will see T2 play.
Does no one remember the old Draw-Go decks? This card seems at least better than Stalking Stones in such a deck. Will Invasion era Counter-Burn make a return? Who knows.
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Monored could use it in limited if monored turns out to be a thing. That's about it.
How so? If it's the only thing you have to do then it's a good backup. Red's not too mana intensive with the majority of their good spells so it can handle it. Look. It's not awesome, but it's not terrible. It'll see some play.
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This card is perfectly fine. It's a roleplayer for slower red decks like Big Red or U/R Counterburn, both of which could easily exist after rotation.
I'm wondering how you think it's free? It forces you to play a colorless land. It forces you to spend 3 mana for 3 turns. It forces you to sac the card. So, to recap, it costs mana, turns, card, and deck slots. So really, it's mostly like every other card in a deck, but more expensive.
It does provide mana on other turns where not activating, but that doesn't make it free.
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It's because the marginal utility of having copies of this card in a particular deck style is greater than the marginal utility of having mountains number 18-22 or 20-24. Unless there are RR, RRR, and RRRR mana costs that you NEED to be hitting on 2, 3 and 4, those last mountains really aren't doing much, where as even the small bit of value that's eeked out when you're efficently using as MUCH of your mana each turn as possible- as well as setting up potential bluffs with your various cards in hand will greatly trump it.
There will be a time where someone gets blown out by a removal spell because they stupidly attack in to a red deck with three untapped lands because they think the person is just going to put another counter on the Hellion Crucible. That's just as much value out of the card as the 4/4 that might show up a few turns later.
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Have you ever run any cards that say "draw a card; discard a card"? How many times did you dump a land later in the game when you didn't need it? Ok, now, instead of drawing a card, you're dumping that land to turn it into a body. Doesn't sound like a waste to me.
As if we've had crazy powerful cards from the last 5-6 sets.
It's not tremendously good, sure, but it's not awful either. A midrange R/x deck might value the ability to spring a surprise 4/4 on the opponent after fully charging the land.
Its not that its that terrible, its the small things that get me. The colorless land, and u can only use it once. Why couldnt we just get a real manland.
The cards may function similarly but serve completely different purposes; so, I'd be hesitant to compare them. Gargoyle Castle is much more of a control deck's card, whereas Crucible would more likely fit in an aggro or midrange deck.
Crucible is not bad, but I still contend that it's underwhelming and they probably could have made it a bit better without making it absurd.
I really don't see it as a 4-of in any competitive level.
In Limited it's certainly strong; any land that can become a creature usually is worth a look regardless of what it costs to get there. This one's definitly a good one, though not a high pick for draft.
As for the thread's title, It's definitly not Bad and it's a very far cry from THE BADDEST.
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IDK if counterspells will still be a thing very soon, but I could imagine this being great as a side-deck card against MUC if it ever returns.
As others have mentioned, the opportunity cost is very, very low. You don't have to pay any of its costs unless you have spare mana, and if you do, a 4/4 with haste is probably going to be pretty nice. Basically any deck running red as a primary color can support 1 or 2 of these without loosing anything and gaining versatility.
Basically in anything other than mono red you won't want to run this, but somewhere down the line, someone will win a game with this that they would not have if they had been running only mountains.
Niche card, but definitely not without its uses.
Also, keep in mind that we don't know what's coming down the road, either. This set was designed with RTR in mind as well, and we don't know what cool stuff will come into play then. If there's anything that recurs land regularly in either now or the near future, this could get way better than it is now.
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I don't think this has a place in Constructed. Every format besides Standard has much better manlands in pretty much every color and combination. Even without good manlands in Standard, this still shouldn't make the cut. The % of the time that it participates in winning the game will likely be less than the % of the time it hurts you by being colorless. If it generated red, I would have agreed there was no reason not to play 1-2 in RR decks, even though it will almost never be useful. As-is, it's just bad.
@RealOG: How do you intend to turn this into a creature by turn 5? Turn 6 is the earliest possible without ramp, and then you've spent 9 mana over turns 4/5/6 to make that happen. That's not even close to efficient enough for Legacy.