Srsly though, its not like you cant fling the guy if you ever get caught with your pants down. every other post about a new red card has just been people QQ'ing, pfft, card is beast, period.
Everytime a new block comes out people complain, then after its been out for a month or so the same people calling things bad are playing with the cards that were "garbage".
why are people comparing this card to creatures? guide. lackey. ball. noble. when you want to play this card, which is t1-t3, it will be 4 damage (not a creature). there is no board presence. there is no card advantage. end. we can however compare it to a lava spike or lightning bolt when it is played where the opponent takes The Vex for four early game. t1 bolt vs. t1 vex/sac. which one does more damage? the devil. is it the right play? no. classic magic points toward creatures leading the way with combat damage and spell damage for his opponents' creatures. it is, however, the correct play if you are trying to maximize damage in the form of life/resource per turn. solid burn decks aim for this.
now. let's build a deck with the devil leaning heavily towards this strategy. what is the right play since i gave away the board, and card advantage for resource(damage:life)? my strategy will be using burn spells like the ones in burn decks and sprint to zero as fast as i can. this is not a RDW strat. RDW races differently by controlling the board and using creatures to pull the iron. only when the opponent is reachable will the RDW player switch the burn from creature to player if need be. Burn will utilize the devil to deal the most damage THAT turn. which means the Burn player will play the devil early to get his opponent to take the damage. one step closer to zero. this is how i will try to play this card.
now we can get technical. by playing a burn deck, do we gain or loose putting devils in? guide may be better in 2 of the cases against the devil. all of them where the devil becomes a creature; one case early, one case late. the guide can put two in before dying to removal early game. the devil puts in 0 before dying. guide wins that one. top draw guide or devil late game, guide hastes whereas the devil sits. guide wins too. all other cases i feel devil will beat guide. and all those outcomes are creature devils; the ones i dont want to play anyway. i want the damage now so that i can move on to burning.
im only interested in the devils playing in a burn deck. so don't respond with card advantage, board presence, creature comparisons, late topdraws, chump blocking your mom, or spell consistency. i told everyone what i want the devils to do. if they aren't doing that then i'll pitch them as i wager or scry them as i jet. the only thing i want is for my opponent to be clocking t1-t4 until they die. i dont care what my opponent is doing unless there is something messing with my opponent's life, positively.
btw. vexing devil is a good, solid card. in the right red decks.
nidstyles. do you mind sharing your test results with this card? how did you use it? how did players respond? anything would be great, because this card is hard evaluate without examples. it's too complicated to use comparisons and use the compared card's previous play to distinguish how the devil may play.
Red is just looking for a card to make it break the format. I think this is the one. It was a huge mistake to print Vexing Devil and WotC is going to regret it. But not after the fans have to put up with it dominating standard for a year or so. =(
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You've got a rat in your walls, and cheese won't solve anything.
These are in no way going in my red deck, and to be perfectly fair I really doubt everyone playing red or hyping up this devil is all that familiar with how rdw works
In an aggressive match up you are handing your opponent a free dismember, not even making him pay 1 mana and more importantly the card for it. You are going in your deck grabbing a dismember and are saying here bro cast this.
I think the arguments people have been making on why this card is good-great only confirms my play testing results that its mediocre. Lots of people have been saying its "skill intensive". Thats like when someone calls rdw "boring" and their pet deck "interesting"they are using words to disguise what they really mean. When someone calls red deck boring they are saying "I dont like that playstyle". When someone calls vexing devil skill intensive they are saying " Its situational"
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Magic players have made it abundantly clear that their time is worth $0/hour in their opinion, so no sympathy there. -DR jeebus or something
I'm sure this has been answered but I don't have time to read this whole thread...
You can fling him after they choose to take 4 damage right?
no, you cant. in the moment your opponent takes the 4, the devil is already dead, he never enters play, when your opponent takes the 4, so you cant sac him before you sac him..
These are in no way going in my red deck, and to be perfectly fair I really doubt everyone playing red or hyping up this devil is all that familiar with how rdw works
In an aggressive match up you are handing your opponent a free dismember, not even making him pay 1 mana and more importantly the card for it. You are going in your deck grabbing a dismember and are saying here bro cast this.
I think the arguments people have been making on why this card is good-great only confirms my play testing results that its mediocre. Lots of people have been saying its "skill intensive". Thats like when someone calls rdw "boring" and their pet deck "interesting"they are using words to disguise what they really mean. When someone calls red deck boring they are saying "I dont like that playstyle". When someone calls vexing devil skill intensive they are saying " Its situational"
I can't dissagree with you more. I have played RDW for a while. I think this is gonna be a staple. Anyone NOT playing Vexing devil is probably gonna get looks. It will be the = of not playing shrine now.
Its not situational. Not by a long shot. Either is a great creature or a great burn spell. Yes the opponent gets to chooose which but I don't see that as all that bad of a drawback. If you got to choose it would be the msot broken card printed by magic to date. (well maybe timewalk is still worse but still)
Red usually as some kinda drawback when a card is this GOOD. However since its drawback is opponenets choice it won't break format or become a game winner. Just like most every other RDW card its not meant to "win" the game. Its meant to give your deck tempo and a head start beginign of the game. It also helps give you a good creature end of game.
What would you re-write in the card to make it "good"?
and as a general statement. Its like printing the dismember and putting it in their hand. is said A LOT. and in reality its NOT the same thing.
the opponent has a dismember and can target anything. WHY WOULD THEY TARGET A 4/3 vanilla creature? WHY would you sac that much life. Also they have to deside NOW. you can't be like.......well.......imma wait till you a ttack and see if I draw into an answer so I don't have to take 4 life.....
thats NOT the case. Your giving the opponent far less options than a simple dismember. your limtied their target to a good creature (not a win conditon like hellrider) and your forcing them to either play it now or loose the opprotunity. So in no way is it the same as the card being a dismember. and I"d really like for people to stop saying that it is.
It will be fun to revisit this thread in a few months to see who is right and who is wrong
Personally I think Vexing Devil is barely too weak to see serious play. It seems to me that it is not a card you want to play turn 1, and it is not a card you want to play late game either. So essentially, a suboptimal card whenever you play it.
It's outstanding and will make waves. I'm not sure what else you could possibly want from a red one-drop. He can still kill most serious creatures in Standard right now that don't have Titan in their names even if it's late game and you're "forced" to play your 4/3 for one red. Or play him T3 after you drop your Shrine? Oh darn...you mean I only get 4 damage and a Shrine token for my one red? Okay, I'll play a Berserker now, too, and my Shrine will have 4 tokens on it as T4 starts.
You can look at the card this way too: vexing devil doesn't let your opponent choose, turns 1 and 2 it's a 4 dmg lava spike, turns 3 and later is a 4/3 for R. Sure, at first you wand the creature and later you prefer the damage, but that would be brahken. For me, this creature is a bit worse than goblin guide.
Everyone that thinks this card is so good is really missing that you always get whichever "side" is better for your opponent any time you cast it. Even turn 1 on the draw your opponent may just let you have the creature then proceed to untap and kill it if they have a hand full of removal. If they are at 4 or less life its never a burn spell that just wins you the game, its simply another creature for the opponent to deal with the same as any other creature you could play.
Okay, I've read everything posted since my last post in here, and first of all, thanks EZY, after that long rant I almost comtemplated just simply stating that point lol.
Second...I'm handing my opponent a free Dismember?! Hell, I HOPE my opponent is playing Dismember against RDW.
Against RDW, Dismember reads, at least in my eyes: Lose 4 life, kill my fodder, thanks for saving me a burn spell.
But I see what you are saying, I lose a creature, they lose 4 life. But they keep Dismember, so they can lose 4 more life a turn or two later against another threat, right?
I collect: Vedalken Heretic, Lorescale Coatl, Reaper King, Worldslayer, Woodwraith Corrupter, Lorthos, the Tidemaker. Soon to collect Conquering Manticore.
I demanded a Manticore, and Wizards delivered. I now demand a Chimaera. The REAL one, not, Chimeric items. I also demand a new Gorgon. And more Manticores please.
Everyone that thinks this card is so good is really missing that you always get whichever "side" is better for your opponent any time you cast it. Even turn 1 on the draw your opponent may just let you have the creature then proceed to untap and kill it if they have a hand full of removal. If they are at 4 or less life its never a burn spell that just wins you the game, its simply another creature for the opponent to deal with the same as any other creature you could play.
Same could be said of any card in RDW. nothing is hexproof. Goblin Arsonist is the closest thing there is to upside on the death. Just because they can choose not to kill it with its own ability doesn't mean that it isn't a mean card otherwise. If they are playing tons of removal then we fall back on burn later on. Keep playing creatures till they run out of removal or we burn them out.
Of course the card is bound to be overpriced and overvalued. I don't care too much because I only play mtgo and the set there comes 2 weeks later, when people will already have realized its real power level.
It's not a 15 or so $ card it is now. More like 5$ at most, but it will take time to get there.
I don't see it being very good in standard, but I'm no expert there.
I do see it being good in Modern and Legacy Burn, which is what I'm building right now.
The one that I need at the time not the one that my opponent gets to choose if I have
"So, Mr. Bond, now that you are dangling over my vat of acid I give you a choice, do I kill you with my lasers or do I kill you by dumping you in ze acid?"
"Idiot, now that you've given me the choice, I can't lose. I choose acid."
"So, Mr. Bond, now that you are dangling over my vat of acid I give you a choice, do I kill you with my lasers or do I kill you by dumping you in ze acid?"
"Idiot, now that you've given me the choice, I can't lose. I choose acid."
anyway has it been resolved about people using Undying evil to try and save the vexing devil? or does that not work?
I would think that you'd need to cast Undying Evil prior to your opponent making their choice. Once they've made their choice he's either alive or dead and gone before you can respond. That said, it would be a surefire way to get an opponent to let him stay alive, but it would be a T2 play at the earliest and would dilute his value as a resolved creature.
"So, Mr. Bond, now that you are dangling over my vat of acid I give you a choice, do I kill you with my lasers or do I kill you by dumping you in ze acid?"
"Idiot, now that you've given me the choice, I can't lose. I choose acid."
"Very well, die now"
*splash*
Thats cute but if you were around for the browbeat fiasco (and to be honest you will still see people bring it up who are just discovering the card) then you would know better
You stare down primetime with your browbeat devil when all you needed was 3 points of burn to the face, or you play him out and walk into slagstorm or day vexing devil + your other dude(s) and essentially discard a card
anyway has it been resolved about people using Undying evil to try and save the vexing devil? or does that not work?
If the devil resolves his ETB trigger goes on the stack, then you can cast undying evil, once undying evil resolves the devils trigger will resolve meaning that your opponent knows it has undying at this point.
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Magic players have made it abundantly clear that their time is worth $0/hour in their opinion, so no sympathy there. -DR jeebus or something
Thats cute but if you were around for the browbeat fiasco (and to be honest you will still see people bring it up who are just discovering the card) then you would know better
You stare down primetime with your browbeat devil when all you needed was 3 points of burn to the face, or you play him out and walk into slagstorm or day vexing devil + your other dude(s) and essentially discard a card
If the devil resolves his ETB trigger goes on the stack, then you can cast undying evil, once undying evil resolves the devils trigger will resolve meaning that your opponent knows it has undying at this point.
nope you never have a chance since its as enters not when enters, cant cast undying before they chose and the choice reolves
If the devil resolves his ETB trigger goes on the stack, then you can cast undying evil, once undying evil resolves the devils trigger will resolve meaning that your opponent knows it has undying at this point.
It's a polarizing card thats for sure. Regardless of what side you're on though the value of this guy is going to be high and stay high despite his naysayers. I', guessing a steady $20 after the hype dies down.
"So, Mr. Bond, now that you are dangling over my vat of acid I give you a choice, do I kill you with my lasers or do I kill you by dumping you in ze acid?"
"Idiot, now that you've given me the choice, I can't lose. I choose acid."
"Very well, die now"
*splash*
Bond: "Good thing I had my acid proof suit"
Proceeds to shoot the villain and sleep with his wife.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
It's a polarizing card thats for sure. Regardless of what side you're on though the value of this guy is going to be high and stay high despite his naysayers. I', guessing a steady $20 after the hype dies down.
In order for this card to stay at $20 dollars it needs to be another snapcaster. This card's ceiling is the second coming of goblin guide.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
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/thread won by Bladewing the risen.
Srsly though, its not like you cant fling the guy if you ever get caught with your pants down. every other post about a new red card has just been people QQ'ing, pfft, card is beast, period.
Everytime a new block comes out people complain, then after its been out for a month or so the same people calling things bad are playing with the cards that were "garbage".
You can fling him after they choose to take 4 damage right?
now. let's build a deck with the devil leaning heavily towards this strategy. what is the right play since i gave away the board, and card advantage for resource(damage:life)? my strategy will be using burn spells like the ones in burn decks and sprint to zero as fast as i can. this is not a RDW strat. RDW races differently by controlling the board and using creatures to pull the iron. only when the opponent is reachable will the RDW player switch the burn from creature to player if need be. Burn will utilize the devil to deal the most damage THAT turn. which means the Burn player will play the devil early to get his opponent to take the damage. one step closer to zero. this is how i will try to play this card.
now we can get technical. by playing a burn deck, do we gain or loose putting devils in? guide may be better in 2 of the cases against the devil. all of them where the devil becomes a creature; one case early, one case late. the guide can put two in before dying to removal early game. the devil puts in 0 before dying. guide wins that one. top draw guide or devil late game, guide hastes whereas the devil sits. guide wins too. all other cases i feel devil will beat guide. and all those outcomes are creature devils; the ones i dont want to play anyway. i want the damage now so that i can move on to burning.
im only interested in the devils playing in a burn deck. so don't respond with card advantage, board presence, creature comparisons, late topdraws, chump blocking your mom, or spell consistency. i told everyone what i want the devils to do. if they aren't doing that then i'll pitch them as i wager or scry them as i jet. the only thing i want is for my opponent to be clocking t1-t4 until they die. i dont care what my opponent is doing unless there is something messing with my opponent's life, positively.
btw. vexing devil is a good, solid card. in the right red decks.
nidstyles. do you mind sharing your test results with this card? how did you use it? how did players respond? anything would be great, because this card is hard evaluate without examples. it's too complicated to use comparisons and use the compared card's previous play to distinguish how the devil may play.
In an aggressive match up you are handing your opponent a free dismember, not even making him pay 1 mana and more importantly the card for it. You are going in your deck grabbing a dismember and are saying here bro cast this.
I think the arguments people have been making on why this card is good-great only confirms my play testing results that its mediocre. Lots of people have been saying its "skill intensive". Thats like when someone calls rdw "boring" and their pet deck "interesting"they are using words to disguise what they really mean. When someone calls red deck boring they are saying "I dont like that playstyle". When someone calls vexing devil skill intensive they are saying " Its situational"
Magic players have made it abundantly clear that their time is worth $0/hour in their opinion, so no sympathy there. -DR jeebus or something
no, you cant. in the moment your opponent takes the 4, the devil is already dead, he never enters play, when your opponent takes the 4, so you cant sac him before you sac him..
I can't dissagree with you more. I have played RDW for a while. I think this is gonna be a staple. Anyone NOT playing Vexing devil is probably gonna get looks. It will be the = of not playing shrine now.
Its not situational. Not by a long shot. Either is a great creature or a great burn spell. Yes the opponent gets to chooose which but I don't see that as all that bad of a drawback. If you got to choose it would be the msot broken card printed by magic to date. (well maybe timewalk is still worse but still)
Red usually as some kinda drawback when a card is this GOOD. However since its drawback is opponenets choice it won't break format or become a game winner. Just like most every other RDW card its not meant to "win" the game. Its meant to give your deck tempo and a head start beginign of the game. It also helps give you a good creature end of game.
What would you re-write in the card to make it "good"?
and as a general statement. Its like printing the dismember and putting it in their hand. is said A LOT. and in reality its NOT the same thing.
the opponent has a dismember and can target anything. WHY WOULD THEY TARGET A 4/3 vanilla creature? WHY would you sac that much life. Also they have to deside NOW. you can't be like.......well.......imma wait till you a ttack and see if I draw into an answer so I don't have to take 4 life.....
thats NOT the case. Your giving the opponent far less options than a simple dismember. your limtied their target to a good creature (not a win conditon like hellrider) and your forcing them to either play it now or loose the opprotunity. So in no way is it the same as the card being a dismember. and I"d really like for people to stop saying that it is.
Compariable? yes. the same? no.
Personally I think Vexing Devil is barely too weak to see serious play. It seems to me that it is not a card you want to play turn 1, and it is not a card you want to play late game either. So essentially, a suboptimal card whenever you play it.
Second...I'm handing my opponent a free Dismember?! Hell, I HOPE my opponent is playing Dismember against RDW.
Against RDW, Dismember reads, at least in my eyes: Lose 4 life, kill my fodder, thanks for saving me a burn spell.
But I see what you are saying, I lose a creature, they lose 4 life. But they keep Dismember, so they can lose 4 more life a turn or two later against another threat, right?
I collect: Vedalken Heretic, Lorescale Coatl, Reaper King, Worldslayer, Woodwraith Corrupter, Lorthos, the Tidemaker. Soon to collect Conquering Manticore.
I demanded a Manticore, and Wizards delivered. I now demand a Chimaera. The REAL one, not, Chimeric items. I also demand a new Gorgon. And more Manticores please.
Same could be said of any card in RDW. nothing is hexproof. Goblin Arsonist is the closest thing there is to upside on the death. Just because they can choose not to kill it with its own ability doesn't mean that it isn't a mean card otherwise. If they are playing tons of removal then we fall back on burn later on. Keep playing creatures till they run out of removal or we burn them out.
It's not a 15 or so $ card it is now. More like 5$ at most, but it will take time to get there.
I don't see it being very good in standard, but I'm no expert there.
I do see it being good in Modern and Legacy Burn, which is what I'm building right now.
"So, Mr. Bond, now that you are dangling over my vat of acid I give you a choice, do I kill you with my lasers or do I kill you by dumping you in ze acid?"
"Idiot, now that you've given me the choice, I can't lose. I choose acid."
"Very well, die now"
*splash*
Made me think of Vexing Devil + Mimic Vat
lol wow. Yeah that would be good.
anyway has it been resolved about people using Undying evil to try and save the vexing devil? or does that not work?
I would think that you'd need to cast Undying Evil prior to your opponent making their choice. Once they've made their choice he's either alive or dead and gone before you can respond. That said, it would be a surefire way to get an opponent to let him stay alive, but it would be a T2 play at the earliest and would dilute his value as a resolved creature.
Thats cute but if you were around for the browbeat fiasco (and to be honest you will still see people bring it up who are just discovering the card) then you would know better
You stare down primetime with your browbeat devil when all you needed was 3 points of burn to the face, or you play him out and walk into slagstorm or day vexing devil + your other dude(s) and essentially discard a card
If the devil resolves his ETB trigger goes on the stack, then you can cast undying evil, once undying evil resolves the devils trigger will resolve meaning that your opponent knows it has undying at this point.
Magic players have made it abundantly clear that their time is worth $0/hour in their opinion, so no sympathy there. -DR jeebus or something
nope you never have a chance since its as enters not when enters, cant cast undying before they chose and the choice reolves
Read the card again. This guy has it right:
Bond: "Good thing I had my acid proof suit"
Proceeds to shoot the villain and sleep with his wife.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
*then wife gives him his rancid case of crabs and herpes. Proceed to game 2*
In order for this card to stay at $20 dollars it needs to be another snapcaster. This card's ceiling is the second coming of goblin guide.
If anyone is giving someone herpes and crabs, it's Bond to the wife.
Bond: 1, Villain: 0
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.