Again, how are we ruining Burning Vengeance's long term ability to play their game? They have Ancient Grudges.
At the very least, it's a 2 mana answer to a 1 mana card. Which is why most people are saying that the card should have costed 3 (or at least 2) colorless.
At the very least, it's a 2 mana answer to a 1 mana card. Which is why most people are saying that the card should have costed 3 (or at least 2) colorless.
If it cost more 1 mana the card would be next to worthless in the formats where it is actually good.
Again, how are we ruining Burning Vengeance's long term ability to play their game? They have Ancient Grudges.
It turns into a pure game of luck. Will the Burning Vengeance player draw more Ancient Grudges than their opponent draws Cages? Pure chance.
That's true of all hosers, but this one completely shuts down the Burning Vengeance deck. It's not random chance to win an advantage, it's a chance to randomly lose the game entirely.
Let's say there was a deck archetype that, before you began play, you flipped a coin and if that coin landed on tails you automatically lost the game. Would you play that deck archetype, even if it were the most powerful ever? Most people wouldn't. That's why if the Cage becomes popular, then Burning Vengeance will no longer be viable as an archetype, no matter how many powerful cards are released to support it. Random hosers kill creativity in deck design.
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It turns into a pure game of luck. Will the Burning Vengeance player draw more Ancient Grudges than their opponent draws Cages? Pure chance.
That's true of all hosers, but this one completely shuts down the Burning Vengeance deck. It's not random chance to win an advantage, it's a chance to randomly lose the game entirely.
Let's say there was a deck archetype that, before you began play, you flipped a coin and if that coin landed on tails you automatically lost the game. Would you play that deck archetype, even if it were the most powerful ever? Most people wouldn't. That's why if the Cage becomes popular, then Burning Vengeance will no longer be viable as an archetype, no matter how many powerful cards are released to support it. Random hosers kill creativity in deck design.
It's not a game of luck. Burning Vengeance decks have 12 card draw spells (maybe 16 with Faithless Looting). As long as they are careful with the 4 of them that do require luck, they will find an Ancient Grudge relatively easy. After that point they have have a graveyard full of spells that say draw a card, deal 2 damage to target creature or player. This card is of very little relevance to Burning Vengeance, as long as the pilot is not stupid. This is assuming Burning Vengeance decks even exist competitively.
It's not a game of luck. Burning Vengeance decks have 12 card draw spells (maybe 16 with Faithless Looting). As long as they are careful with the 4 of them that do require luck, they will find an Ancient Grudge relatively easy.
12 of those 16 would simply become cantrips once the cage is out. While spending one card to draw one card does add probability to come upon the answer, it is limited in doing so. Faithless looting digs a little more, but it also puts you at -1 and at risk of running out of fuel and getting into topdeck mode.
Furthermore you are wasting your mana on cantrips without generating any Card Advantage or dealing with your opponents board.
When using a mechanic or resource that's already known to be powerful (graveyard interaction, "free" spells, etc) which do you think players would rather see-
1: Lots of cards that interact with that mechanic at a lesser power level. (For instance, Only "Affinity for lands" (spire golem) were printed and not "Affinity for Artifacts".)
2. Some cards at that lower power level (Affinity for Lands), and then some cards that explore it at a higher power level (Affinity for Artifacts), but as a cost for those, there are a few narrow, powerful hosers against that mechanic (Shatterstorm, Hurkyl's Recall)?
12 of those 16 would simply become cantrips once the cage is out.
That is irrelevant. The point is BV decks have a significant amount of cards to dig through their deck to find the Grudges. After they find the Grudge, they win a majority of the time. BV decks don't flashback spells until they can get value out of them anyway. Will Cage change the way the decks will play? Yes. Will it be debilitating? Not in the slightest. They have have to keep a Grudge off a Alchemy instead of a Vengeance or land. Then again, they may have had to do that before to force an opponent to pop a Spellbomb.
This is how I'm reading a lot of the negative reactions from this card:
"Oh no, my deck can lose because people can interact with it. Oh no. This is so bad for a healthy gaming environment."
Personally, I think we should all chill out. We have no idea how the meta will shift, so we don't know if this card will prove entirely necessary. And in the meantime, we can also consider in what ways we can make our decks more resilient to these sort of interactions.
That is irrelevant. The point is BV decks have a significant amount of cards to dig through their deck to find the Grudges. After they find the Grudge, they win a majority of the time. BV decks don't flashback spells until they can get value out of them anyway. Will Cage change the way the decks will play? Yes. Will it be debilitating? Not in the slightest. They have have to keep a Grudge off a Alchemy instead of a Vengeance or land. Then again, they may have had to do that before to force an opponent to pop a Spellbomb.
No it isn't irrelevant. You are thinking up some magical powerful hands that Burning Vengeance doesn't have, when most of its draw spells don't actually work.
So there's 12 or 16 draw spells in the deck. That means you draw 1-2 in your opening hand. So say you have one think twice and 1 forbidden alchemy (good case scenario). That's not going to get you far.
If they find the grudge that doesn't mean they now win the majority of the time. They have just broken even.
The other bad part though, is that Burning Vengeance and other graveyard decks NEED to throw in the 3-4 artifact answers, simply because it will be instant loss for them if they don't. Then the opponent has the option to either put in the cages (they break even card wise) or feint and leave the cages out. You hoser is so powerful and inflexible that you give the hoser player a strong power play.
I don't think hosers are bad, they're good. I wish there was a single hoser for Planeswalkers and JTMS all of last standard season. It's just when you make them this effortless and powerful, you are damaging the game.
It turns into a pure game of luck. Will the Burning Vengeance player draw more Ancient Grudges than their opponent draws Cages? Pure chance.
That's true of all hosers, but this one completely shuts down the Burning Vengeance deck. It's not random chance to win an advantage, it's a chance to randomly lose the game entirely.
Let's say there was a deck archetype that, before you began play, you flipped a coin and if that coin landed on tails you automatically lost the game. Would you play that deck archetype, even if it were the most powerful ever? Most people wouldn't. That's why if the Cage becomes popular, then Burning Vengeance will no longer be viable as an archetype, no matter how many powerful cards are released to support it. Random hosers kill creativity in deck design.
Why would cage become popular if no one chooses to play the decks its good against?
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Seriously, if this card starts shutting down good strategies, players will come up with different ones. For many, the necessary thinking will cause tremendous pain. I get that. But I do not see how extra thinking will stifle creativity.
When using a mechanic or resource that's already known to be powerful (graveyard interaction, "free" spells, etc) which do you think players would rather see-
1: Lots of cards that interact with that mechanic at a lesser power level. (For instance, Only "Affinity for lands" (spire golem) were printed and not "Affinity for Artifacts".)
2. Some cards at that lower power level (Affinity for Lands), and then some cards that explore it at a higher power level (Affinity for Artifacts), but as a cost for those, there are a few narrow, powerful hosers against that mechanic (Shatterstorm, Hurkyl's Recall)?
Neither Shatterstorm nor Hurkyl's Recall were legal with Affinity in t2. As well, they're both extremely narrow answers that will hit only a specific deck.
Those are also one-time effects that someone can recover from.
This is a 1cc permanent that if you don't have an answer to, you can't do anything about it. For something like Tormod's Crypt you can force them to crack it and then recover if you don't draw bounce. It's also extremely versatile and can effect a large variety of decks pending format(it literally hoses about half of Legacy and hits a chunk of Modern).
It's essentially a more broad Leyline of the Void(since it also stops library interaction) that isn't dead right off the top(since it's so easily castable) and that can just be recast easily by every deck if it's bounced.
It's annoying. No, it's not the end of the world, but it's a bit too strong.
Also, this is going to be a $5-15 card, easily. Could potentially get higher, especially with the Modern PTQ season.
For reference; Pithing Needle out of Saviors was a $20-25 card, Leyline of the Void out of Guildpact was $7-13 depending on where in that Extended season you wanted to check into. And both of those were a bit more narrow than this is.
Neither Shatterstorm nor Hurkyl's Recall were legal with Affinity in t2. As well, they're both extremely narrow answers that will hit only a specific deck.
Those are also one-time effects that someone can recover from.
This is a 1cc permanent that if you don't have an answer to, you can't do anything about it. For something like Tormod's Crypt you can force them to crack it and then recover if you don't draw bounce. It's also extremely versatile and can effect a large variety of decks pending format(it literally hoses about half of Legacy and hits a chunk of Modern).
It's essentially a more broad Leyline of the Void(since it also stops library interaction) that isn't dead right off the top(since it's so easily castable) and that can just be recast easily by every deck if it's bounced.
It's annoying. No, it's not the end of the world, but it's a bit too strong.
Also, this is going to be a $5-15 card, easily. Could potentially get higher, especially with the Modern PTQ season.
For reference; Pithing Needle out of Saviors was a $20-25 card, Leyline of the Void out of Guildpact was $7-13 depending on where in that Extended season you wanted to check into. And both of those were a bit more narrow than this is.
Part of the reason why Needle was upwards of 20 was because Saviors was an abysmal set for having chase rares.
It made Worldwake look like a masterpiece of a set in comparison as far as pure power level goes.
I think if you were to rank the weakest sets power wise over the course of Magic Saviors would be top 4 easily.
When a set is overall bad it forces 1-2 cards to be super valuable if they are any good at all.
That is irrelevant. The point is BV decks have a significant amount of cards to dig through their deck to find the Grudges. After they find the Grudge, they win a majority of the time. BV decks don't flashback spells until they can get value out of them anyway. Will Cage change the way the decks will play? Yes. Will it be debilitating? Not in the slightest. They have have to keep a Grudge off a Alchemy instead of a Vengeance or land. Then again, they may have had to do that before to force an opponent to pop a Spellbomb.
Uh no? When does burning vengeance win "most of the time"? It doesnt even win most of the time in block constructed.
Guess what I dont just drop cage turn 1 and then ship 4 turns while you flounder around. I am proactively playing other threats that also need answers. I am holding up counter spells for when you do find your threat.
This card will blowout burning vengeance everytime. BVs deck only hope is it is irrelevant enough as a deck itself and other decks hosed by cage are not popular. That seems pretty grim though.
This card isn't going to have nearly the impact people are expecting. It's not going to stop any deck from becoming viable that would have been viable otherwise
Also, this isn't nearly as bad as Leyline for graveyard decks because it doesn't stop the graveyard from filling up and it's not as bad for Pod as Torpor Orb. Splinterfright.dec just kind of shrugs and moves on
I love how all the BV players are moaning that this card hoses their deck but are quite happy for Witchbane Orb to exist.
Witchbane Orb doesn't stop BV. The BV deck can still keep the battlefield clear, and can flashback its Ancient Grudges to destroy the Orb.
The problem is that when facing the Cage, the BV deck completely loses the ability to control the battlefield and gets half duty from the Grudges. The Cage protects itself from Ancient Grudge.
But I don't think the big problem with the Cage is the BV deck. I think the problem is that it hoses a wide selection of decks -- recursive zombies, reanimation, flashback, undying, pod, toolboxes, etc. That means the Cage will be sideboarded or even maindecked from now until INN rotates out of Standard. Which means Standard for the next two years will be vanilla aggro and vanilla control. Bleah.
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thats just a not smart statement. Not only will this card not stop people from playing things from their graveyards in standard, but has every standard since Odyssey rotated out of standard been all vanilla aggro vs vanilla control???
Besides the point about it never getting you ahead on cards and not doing anything relevant at all until it stops 2 spells, and being really really bad in multiples (like really really bad), what decks actually want to run this card??? Please someone tell me one deck that would want to run this card in standard (especially mb).
U/W Delver doesn't want to shut off its best card, Control decks want to flashback draw spells, Red decks don't want to waste the time/card not dealing damage, U/W Crusader decks want to continuously put on pressure and have other 1 drops and a very tight curve (as well as if the opponent is flashing back Alchemies vs. you they are either way ahead or on the back foot), B/W token decks will want to flashback Lingering Souls, and Ramp decks are trying to just play their own game and are not really worried about you getting value from casting spells again (yes it stops Snapcaster from being a counter, but what if they have Leak/Dissipate/Flashfreeze/Negate instead? You probably just wasted too many cards to win).
So I guess R/G Werewolves is going to dominate because it can MB Giraffe Cage... yeah...
It's the best hoser that's ever been printed - Even Leyline of the Void pales in comparison to how powerful this card is.
Don't kid yourself. MaRo hates graveyard strategies, so he pushed this in so they wouldn't ever be a considerable threat in any format.
Against pretty much all graveyard based decks, Leyline of the Void is a lot scarier than this cage.
Cage -> dredge, dredge, dredge, finally draw an answer and blow up cage, proceed to kill you from nowhere with my full graveyard.
Leyline of the Void -> dredge, dredge, dredge, finally draw an answer and blow up the leyline, sit and cry softly as I start over from nothing and down a card.
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If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
It's the best hoser that's ever been printed - Even Leyline of the Void pales in comparison to how powerful this card is.
Don't kid yourself. MaRo hates graveyard strategies, so he pushed this in so they wouldn't ever be a considerable threat in any format.
Wow, sky is falling much?
Leyline is way better vs GY strategies. This is maindeckable in some formats (Vintage, EDH) and some metagames of other formats (everything else it's legal in), and will be a very solid sideboard card in others.
Hate is hate though, and even Leyline can be played through. I've won games in Vintage with Dredge through as many as 4 pieces of hate, including a double-leyline opener (I've killed on turn 3 though that actually, with a very God-draw). It's not easy, but it can be done. These powerful strategies will take a hit form the hate, but it won't wreck the decks.
It will force some more honest game one's. That's not a bad thing.
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At the very least, it's a 2 mana answer to a 1 mana card. Which is why most people are saying that the card should have costed 3 (or at least 2) colorless.
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If it cost more 1 mana the card would be next to worthless in the formats where it is actually good.
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It turns into a pure game of luck. Will the Burning Vengeance player draw more Ancient Grudges than their opponent draws Cages? Pure chance.
That's true of all hosers, but this one completely shuts down the Burning Vengeance deck. It's not random chance to win an advantage, it's a chance to randomly lose the game entirely.
Let's say there was a deck archetype that, before you began play, you flipped a coin and if that coin landed on tails you automatically lost the game. Would you play that deck archetype, even if it were the most powerful ever? Most people wouldn't. That's why if the Cage becomes popular, then Burning Vengeance will no longer be viable as an archetype, no matter how many powerful cards are released to support it. Random hosers kill creativity in deck design.
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It's not a game of luck. Burning Vengeance decks have 12 card draw spells (maybe 16 with Faithless Looting). As long as they are careful with the 4 of them that do require luck, they will find an Ancient Grudge relatively easy. After that point they have have a graveyard full of spells that say draw a card, deal 2 damage to target creature or player. This card is of very little relevance to Burning Vengeance, as long as the pilot is not stupid. This is assuming Burning Vengeance decks even exist competitively.
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12 of those 16 would simply become cantrips once the cage is out. While spending one card to draw one card does add probability to come upon the answer, it is limited in doing so. Faithless looting digs a little more, but it also puts you at -1 and at risk of running out of fuel and getting into topdeck mode.
Furthermore you are wasting your mana on cantrips without generating any Card Advantage or dealing with your opponents board.
1: Lots of cards that interact with that mechanic at a lesser power level. (For instance, Only "Affinity for lands" (spire golem) were printed and not "Affinity for Artifacts".)
2. Some cards at that lower power level (Affinity for Lands), and then some cards that explore it at a higher power level (Affinity for Artifacts), but as a cost for those, there are a few narrow, powerful hosers against that mechanic (Shatterstorm, Hurkyl's Recall)?
That is irrelevant. The point is BV decks have a significant amount of cards to dig through their deck to find the Grudges. After they find the Grudge, they win a majority of the time. BV decks don't flashback spells until they can get value out of them anyway. Will Cage change the way the decks will play? Yes. Will it be debilitating? Not in the slightest. They have have to keep a Grudge off a Alchemy instead of a Vengeance or land. Then again, they may have had to do that before to force an opponent to pop a Spellbomb.
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"Oh no, my deck can lose because people can interact with it. Oh no. This is so bad for a healthy gaming environment."
Personally, I think we should all chill out. We have no idea how the meta will shift, so we don't know if this card will prove entirely necessary. And in the meantime, we can also consider in what ways we can make our decks more resilient to these sort of interactions.
No it isn't irrelevant. You are thinking up some magical powerful hands that Burning Vengeance doesn't have, when most of its draw spells don't actually work.
So there's 12 or 16 draw spells in the deck. That means you draw 1-2 in your opening hand. So say you have one think twice and 1 forbidden alchemy (good case scenario). That's not going to get you far.
If they find the grudge that doesn't mean they now win the majority of the time. They have just broken even.
The other bad part though, is that Burning Vengeance and other graveyard decks NEED to throw in the 3-4 artifact answers, simply because it will be instant loss for them if they don't. Then the opponent has the option to either put in the cages (they break even card wise) or feint and leave the cages out. You hoser is so powerful and inflexible that you give the hoser player a strong power play.
I don't think hosers are bad, they're good. I wish there was a single hoser for Planeswalkers and JTMS all of last standard season. It's just when you make them this effortless and powerful, you are damaging the game.
Why would cage become popular if no one chooses to play the decks its good against?
Seriously, if this card starts shutting down good strategies, players will come up with different ones. For many, the necessary thinking will cause tremendous pain. I get that. But I do not see how extra thinking will stifle creativity.
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Neither Shatterstorm nor Hurkyl's Recall were legal with Affinity in t2. As well, they're both extremely narrow answers that will hit only a specific deck.
Those are also one-time effects that someone can recover from.
This is a 1cc permanent that if you don't have an answer to, you can't do anything about it. For something like Tormod's Crypt you can force them to crack it and then recover if you don't draw bounce. It's also extremely versatile and can effect a large variety of decks pending format(it literally hoses about half of Legacy and hits a chunk of Modern).
It's essentially a more broad Leyline of the Void(since it also stops library interaction) that isn't dead right off the top(since it's so easily castable) and that can just be recast easily by every deck if it's bounced.
It's annoying. No, it's not the end of the world, but it's a bit too strong.
Also, this is going to be a $5-15 card, easily. Could potentially get higher, especially with the Modern PTQ season.
For reference; Pithing Needle out of Saviors was a $20-25 card, Leyline of the Void out of Guildpact was $7-13 depending on where in that Extended season you wanted to check into. And both of those were a bit more narrow than this is.
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Part of the reason why Needle was upwards of 20 was because Saviors was an abysmal set for having chase rares.
It made Worldwake look like a masterpiece of a set in comparison as far as pure power level goes.
I think if you were to rank the weakest sets power wise over the course of Magic Saviors would be top 4 easily.
When a set is overall bad it forces 1-2 cards to be super valuable if they are any good at all.
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Uh no? When does burning vengeance win "most of the time"? It doesnt even win most of the time in block constructed.
Guess what I dont just drop cage turn 1 and then ship 4 turns while you flounder around. I am proactively playing other threats that also need answers. I am holding up counter spells for when you do find your threat.
This card will blowout burning vengeance everytime. BVs deck only hope is it is irrelevant enough as a deck itself and other decks hosed by cage are not popular. That seems pretty grim though.
Witchbane Orb doesn't cost 1.
Also, this isn't nearly as bad as Leyline for graveyard decks because it doesn't stop the graveyard from filling up and it's not as bad for Pod as Torpor Orb. Splinterfright.dec just kind of shrugs and moves on
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
Witchbane Orb doesn't stop BV. The BV deck can still keep the battlefield clear, and can flashback its Ancient Grudges to destroy the Orb.
The problem is that when facing the Cage, the BV deck completely loses the ability to control the battlefield and gets half duty from the Grudges. The Cage protects itself from Ancient Grudge.
But I don't think the big problem with the Cage is the BV deck. I think the problem is that it hoses a wide selection of decks -- recursive zombies, reanimation, flashback, undying, pod, toolboxes, etc. That means the Cage will be sideboarded or even maindecked from now until INN rotates out of Standard. Which means Standard for the next two years will be vanilla aggro and vanilla control. Bleah.
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Besides the point about it never getting you ahead on cards and not doing anything relevant at all until it stops 2 spells, and being really really bad in multiples (like really really bad), what decks actually want to run this card???
Please someone tell me one deck that would want to run this card in standard (especially mb).
U/W Delver doesn't want to shut off its best card, Control decks want to flashback draw spells, Red decks don't want to waste the time/card not dealing damage, U/W Crusader decks want to continuously put on pressure and have other 1 drops and a very tight curve (as well as if the opponent is flashing back Alchemies vs. you they are either way ahead or on the back foot), B/W token decks will want to flashback Lingering Souls, and Ramp decks are trying to just play their own game and are not really worried about you getting value from casting spells again (yes it stops Snapcaster from being a counter, but what if they have Leak/Dissipate/Flashfreeze/Negate instead? You probably just wasted too many cards to win).
So I guess R/G Werewolves is going to dominate because it can MB Giraffe Cage... yeah...
People aren't going to continue running the card if everyone stops playing those decks. That's not how the metagame works.
Don't kid yourself. MaRo hates graveyard strategies, so he pushed this in so they wouldn't ever be a considerable threat in any format.
Against pretty much all graveyard based decks, Leyline of the Void is a lot scarier than this cage.
Cage -> dredge, dredge, dredge, finally draw an answer and blow up cage, proceed to kill you from nowhere with my full graveyard.
Leyline of the Void -> dredge, dredge, dredge, finally draw an answer and blow up the leyline, sit and cry softly as I start over from nothing and down a card.
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
Wow, sky is falling much?
Leyline is way better vs GY strategies. This is maindeckable in some formats (Vintage, EDH) and some metagames of other formats (everything else it's legal in), and will be a very solid sideboard card in others.
Hate is hate though, and even Leyline can be played through. I've won games in Vintage with Dredge through as many as 4 pieces of hate, including a double-leyline opener (I've killed on turn 3 though that actually, with a very God-draw). It's not easy, but it can be done. These powerful strategies will take a hit form the hate, but it won't wreck the decks.
It will force some more honest game one's. That's not a bad thing.
- Willy Wonka
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