This is as far as I got with it.. I'm trying to go the route of inevitability, but get there at an actually-halfway-competitive speed.
I don't really care if they have a Pyroclasm, but maybe I should toss in Lord of the Undead just for insurance and occasional recursion. Vengeful Dead kinda covers this..right? How would the timing on that work out anyway? They'd all die simultaneously..
Also considered Burnt Offering & Cabal Coffers. Both of these seem difficult to get right, given the build above. I want it to be fairly explosive if I can, to make up for the obscene casting cost of Army.
If you're going to the trouble of all those mana sources you need a way to find it. If you're going casual I'd add card draw and maybe even Mind's Desire Using Army of the Damned as your Desire WinCon would be fun. If you can give them haste it's an insta kill.
Just snapped up 4x Endless Ranks of the Dead too...those will probably play a role. Oh look..they stack. Not sure if I'll run all of them though.
Agree, some tutors/drawing will be needed. No prob.
Having second thoughts about Lake of the Dead and/or Bubbling Muck. These seem at odds with eachother. Hmm..
Haste won't help without Amulet of Vigoralso in the mix.(re-read the card) At that point..this thing is getting awfully combo-ish. I'd kinda like to avoid that if I can. But if no other way, maybe.
I just mean..I don't want a "Rube Goldberg machine of a Combo" goin on. That's all.
Getting all those stars to align is really unreliable in my experience. I'd rather focus on things that make the deck more reliable and (if there's remaining slots) resilient.
If you're going to the trouble of all those mana sources you need a way to find it. If you're going casual I'd add card draw and maybe even Mind's Desire Using Army of the Damned as your Desire WinCon would be fun. If you can give them haste it's an insta kill.
Minds Desire.....makes me wonder if I'm playing magic or on acid.
And I'm not even sure about those other Zombie cards I listed in the OP at this point. I'm just 'auto-grabbing' stuff from my previous Zombie deck. No guarantee they'll be as good here. I'll probably need to see the entire INN spoiler before proceeding any further. Onslaught-era Zombies have a very different thrust than Innistrad-era Zombies..
But at least I preordered the two playsets I'll need..those are for sure going in this.
I'm also torn and may have to build 2 zombie decks, because I'm thinking of abusing things like Rooftop Storm, Thrax, Geth, Helldozer, and dreaming of casting a lategame Soulquake with the Storm out and then casting all my zombies for free!
Nice build Morphiling. I just believe Shepherd of Rot should be used with care with 13 zombies around, or you gonna get a draw.
props to the twist with the black "high tide", i believe it is the "hadouken" needed to finish the job.
I'd just love if Wizards create a zombie like this:
Flatulent Corpse 2BB (1/1)
When ~ is in your graveyard, once per turn, add B equal to the number of zombies in your graveyard.
That'd be a huge inferior version of D. Ritual, restricted to zombies, and been relevant mostly on T3, but i'd allow us to solidly play Army of the Damned faster.
What about Noxious Ghoul as a board wipe? I don't know if it's too slow or if it deviates from your gameplan too much...just trying to do some brainstorming myself.
Black Market would be pretty powerful late game as well. My build will definitely include Noxious Ghoul.
Undead Warchief doesn't help with casting Army of the Dead or the Endless Enchantment since neither are Tribal. I would go with the Jet Medallion over the Warchief, because lets be honest with the amount of tokens we're talking about having, pumping them is just kinda winmore.
I too am going to be using Bubbling Much along with Yawgwin, combined with Cabal Coffers for a lategame Exsanguinate.
A nice way to deal with Pyroclasm is, use a pumper or some creature that gets huge with them going grave, like Carrion Feeder (which would even trigger Vengeful Dead on purpose).
Ooooh...Carrion Feeder is a very good solution for 'clasms. And Vengeful's for ***'s.
And yeah, you're right about the Shepherds. I did notice that, actually. I think they're probably out.
I can't wait to tell a blue mage across the table what Boseiju does..hehe.
===
To restate more clearly: Problem I have w/giving blanket Haste and/or Amulet of Vigor is it will gobble up so many deckslots along the way, just to shave one turn off the clock. (Sure, I'll admit that does matter sometimes, yes..) I think I'll probably just wait for them to untap and instead use those deckslots to support the primary focus. Tutors and whatnot.
The only way army is any decent at all is with warstorm surge out. Even then its a combo requiring some extremely heavy mana investment and isn't worth it, even in casual I'd say.
Without Surge, the 2/2 tokens are just waaay to vulnerable, esp that late in the game. They die to pretty much every sweeper out there.
Again, keep in mind I play strictly MP, but I would definitely NOT take out the Shepherds!
They are so friggin' powerful and all it takes is 1 Corrupt or Tendrils of Corruption or something similar to keep your head above water while your opponent drowns. I strongly suggest keeping them. If nothing else they are an instant "we draw the game" card that at least keeps your opponent(s) from winning.
*edit* Maybe a Death Baron as well. He pumps and he gives all those measly tokens deathtouch which makes them that much deadlier.
Some questions arised: is blue necessary? should i run counter stuff? Moan + Infestation is too much? Isn't 4-of AotD too much considering its cost? Really aiming to buy stuff asap before prices boost.
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
The thing is, these are all variations on win-more. I'm sure its all casual, sure, and timmy big win style, but eh, all you have to do to win with this card is cast it. Anything like amulet of vigor + warstorm surge + zombie lords + etc etc etc, well, its a bit silly really. I mean, people have been evaluating this card a bit funky all through its threads. What makes this such a strong finisher is that it doesn't die to a sweeper; it dies to 2 sweepers. The fact that you can flashback it 1-2 turns later means its a very resilient win condition. It kills in 1 swing, gets around blockers, can't die to spot removal, soaks up a sweeper, and overpowers an overextended opponent on its own.
So in use, its best application would probably be as a lone finisher in a control deck. You don't need any other beaters in a deck with this in it, imagine it like the way a control deck might use a grave titan. It wins the game on its own. So you'd want to be using it against a 20 life opponent on turn 9-10 or so, for example.
Now in standard, it obviously isn't all that constructed powerful, for 1 simple reason; grave titan. Well 5 reasons if you include the rest. It doesn't pass that titan test, in that it costs 2 more mana and both win the game on their own, so its not an exceptionally convincing win condition. Maybe a rare usage as grave titan #3-4, taking both as a 2-3 of, in order to mix it up a little. But like so much else in this game, and this set, and the last block, and the next 2 sets, it will be a card that doesn't see play thanks to titans which should never have been printed.
But the useful tip to take from it is, if you want to use it in a casual deck, its best suited to a control sort of build, and its counter productive to put it in a deck with a bunch of other zombies. I really wish it had "Tribal - Zombie" so you could go crazy with combos like rooftop storm, but ah well. But as much thematic sense as it might make with a deck filled with diregrafs & walking corpses & phaorohs, it actually doesn't make up practical sense- all the damage you've done with weenies is irrelevant when you're finisher kills with 1 swing, so you'd be far better off playing any sort of overrun variant. But if you like theme builds, go for it
Oh and, did anyone notice how terribly underpowered moan of the unhallowed is compared to grizzly fate? Ok, no lord bonuses, but you'd usually getting twice the effect =/
The thing is, these are all variations on win-more. I'm sure its all casual, sure, and timmy big win style, but eh, all you have to do to win with this card is cast it. Anything like amulet of vigor + warstorm surge + zombie lords + etc etc etc, well, its a bit silly really. I mean, people have been evaluating this card a bit funky all through its threads. What makes this such a strong finisher is that it doesn't die to a sweeper; it dies to 2 sweepers. The fact that you can flashback it 1-2 turns later means its a very resilient win condition. It kills in 1 swing, gets around blockers, can't die to spot removal, soaks up a sweeper, and overpowers an overextended opponent on its own.
So in use, its best application would probably be as a lone finisher in a control deck. You don't need any other beaters in a deck with this in it, imagine it like the way a control deck might use a grave titan. It wins the game on its own. So you'd want to be using it against a 20 life opponent on turn 9-10 or so, for example.
Now in standard, it obviously isn't all that constructed powerful, for 1 simple reason; grave titan. Well 5 reasons if you include the rest. It doesn't pass that titan test, in that it costs 2 more mana and both win the game on their own, so its not an exceptionally convincing win condition. Maybe a rare usage as grave titan #3-4, taking both as a 2-3 of, in order to mix it up a little. But like so much else in this game, and this set, and the last block, and the next 2 sets, it will be a card that doesn't see play thanks to titans which should never have been printed.
But the useful tip to take from it is, if you want to use it in a casual deck, its best suited to a control sort of build, and its counter productive to put it in a deck with a bunch of other zombies. I really wish it had "Tribal - Zombie" so you could go crazy with combos like rooftop storm, but ah well. But as much thematic sense as it might make with a deck filled with diregrafs & walking corpses & phaorohs, it actually doesn't make up practical sense- all the damage you've done with weenies is irrelevant when you're finisher kills with 1 swing, so you'd be far better off playing any sort of overrun variant. But if you like theme builds, go for it
Oh and, did anyone notice how terribly underpowered moan of the unhallowed is compared to grizzly fate? Ok, no lord bonuses, but you'd usually getting twice the effect =/
Nice in-take. I believe that even if AotD was done on tribal, Rooftop will just advance it 1 turn (T6-Rooftop, T7-AotD), so not a great impact.
Grave Titan, despite a bad-ass, i don't think its a walking gg. It lacks evasion to hit, has no protection, and pops two 2/2 to a not so fast pace ("only" 2 by attacking turn), where opponent can find time to deal with it, while AotD (thirteen 2/2 right off the bat) = wrath it or gg, and foe will still have to save another wrath for 2 turns later 'cause he'll face the flashback.
Diregraf Ghoul is really good, 2/2 for B, can aggro earlier vs more controlling decks, OR pose a threat to Goblin Guides rush (slowing faster decks), or at least, draggin burning to take him out of the road.
Vengeful Pharaoh and Skaab Ruinator seems really nice guys, Pharaoh is an aggro demoralizer, people will have to make math if they wanna hit you and lose his critters vs a deck meant to swarm. Skaab can be a discard material early game (Infestation), and when your board is token fueled, you can cast him from grave, almost a Titan if we disconsider Reaper (5/6), but with an advantage, evasion (flying).
Walking Corpse is indeed a vanilla filler, which i never meant to include it on MD, this is just the birth of my thoughts on this deck (while the set is not completely spoiled), but for now, i can't think on better options to stall early game, it is this card or packing up removal, but while running Reaper, a 3/3 beating on 3rd turn seems juicy to put a clock on opponent.
Not sure, it needs testing, which is impossible right now, but it seems a path the deck can take, and transcend the mere casual light spot turned to it by this time.
My idea of play right now is on this "perfect" pattern of play is:
1st) Diregraf
2nd) Infestation (drop Pharaoh and Skaab), put a 2/2 token
3rd) Reaper
4th) Endless/Moan (Moan let Skaab comes to live, not sure if worthy tho)
...8th) Army of the Damned
Not sure if it can compete with Kulthora Goblins / Valakut (sac-damage will hurt), but it seems very resilient to deal with Caw-Blade control stuff (sword won't itchy if Pharaoh is on grave).
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
The only way army is any decent at all is with warstorm surge out. Even then its a combo requiring some extremely heavy mana investment and isn't worth it, even in casual I'd say.
Without Surge, the 2/2 tokens are just waaay to vulnerable, esp that late in the game. They die to pretty much every sweeper out there.
Well... assuming you got two more lands, you could just flashback it. And if you do, most likely those 13 tokens will outweigh whatever's on the other side of the table.
If you're going to the trouble of all those mana sources you need a way to find it. If you're going casual I'd add card draw and maybe even Mind's Desire Using Army of the Damned as your Desire WinCon would be fun. If you can give them haste it's an insta kill.
considering the zombies etb tapped, i don't think haste is such a good idea. you're better off storming a good ol' tendrils if you're going to ramp and combo with a sorcery
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Can't talk about this in Casual, so I'll do it here. (Yes, this will be a casual deck)
4 Vengeful Dead
4 Twisted Abomination (Swampcycling, primarily)
4 Gempalm Polluter
4 Bubbling Muck
4 Army of the Damned
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Unholy Grotto
This is as far as I got with it.. I'm trying to go the route of inevitability, but get there at an actually-halfway-competitive speed.
I don't really care if they have a Pyroclasm, but maybe I should toss in Lord of the Undead just for insurance and occasional recursion. Vengeful Dead kinda covers this..right? How would the timing on that work out anyway? They'd all die simultaneously..
Also considered Burnt Offering & Cabal Coffers. Both of these seem difficult to get right, given the build above. I want it to be fairly explosive if I can, to make up for the obscene casting cost of Army.
Not sure on Endless Ranks of the Dead..perhaps..
Anybody else been thinking about this?
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Agree, some tutors/drawing will be needed. No prob.
Having second thoughts about Lake of the Dead and/or Bubbling Muck. These seem at odds with eachother. Hmm..
Haste won't help without Amulet of Vigor also in the mix.(re-read the card) At that point..this thing is getting awfully combo-ish. I'd kinda like to avoid that if I can. But if no other way, maybe.
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Getting all those stars to align is really unreliable in my experience. I'd rather focus on things that make the deck more reliable and (if there's remaining slots) resilient.
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Minds Desire.....makes me wonder if I'm playing magic or on acid.
Also remembered Undead Warchief & Jet Medallion Both, either, or neither, could be useful..
And I'm not even sure about those other Zombie cards I listed in the OP at this point. I'm just 'auto-grabbing' stuff from my previous Zombie deck. No guarantee they'll be as good here. I'll probably need to see the entire INN spoiler before proceeding any further. Onslaught-era Zombies have a very different thrust than Innistrad-era Zombies..
But at least I preordered the two playsets I'll need..those are for sure going in this.
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Some of my ideas.
Use Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers the deck needs it.
Ideas: (I was going to focus more on Endless Ranks of the Dead and a MP build).
Splash blue for Paradox Haze, it works pretty damn good with the Ranks, but that is about it, would love to find another use for it.
Call to the Grave and Grave Pact are both very powerful albeit in a MP setting even moreso.
I'm also torn and may have to build 2 zombie decks, because I'm thinking of abusing things like Rooftop Storm, Thrax, Geth, Helldozer, and dreaming of casting a lategame Soulquake with the Storm out and then casting all my zombies for free!
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
props to the twist with the black "high tide", i believe it is the "hadouken" needed to finish the job.
I'd just love if Wizards create a zombie like this:
Flatulent Corpse 2BB (1/1)
When ~ is in your graveyard, once per turn, add B equal to the number of zombies in your graveyard.
That'd be a huge inferior version of D. Ritual, restricted to zombies, and been relevant mostly on T3, but i'd allow us to solidly play Army of the Damned faster.
Discard it through Zombie Infestation or Liliana of the Veil, and we can have fun.
Undead Warchief doesn't help with casting Army of the Dead or the Endless Enchantment since neither are Tribal. I would go with the Jet Medallion over the Warchief, because lets be honest with the amount of tokens we're talking about having, pumping them is just kinda winmore.
I too am going to be using Bubbling Much along with Yawgwin, combined with Cabal Coffers for a lategame Exsanguinate.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
Nantuko Husk and Phyrexian Ghoul also works, but the pump will just go 'til the end of turn.
And yeah, you're right about the Shepherds. I did notice that, actually. I think they're probably out.
I can't wait to tell a blue mage across the table what Boseiju does..hehe.
===
To restate more clearly: Problem I have w/giving blanket Haste and/or Amulet of Vigor is it will gobble up so many deckslots along the way, just to shave one turn off the clock. (Sure, I'll admit that does matter sometimes, yes..) I think I'll probably just wait for them to untap and instead use those deckslots to support the primary focus. Tutors and whatnot.
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Without Surge, the 2/2 tokens are just waaay to vulnerable, esp that late in the game. They die to pretty much every sweeper out there.
And Gempalm Polluter can still save us sometimes..as can Vengeful Dead..as can..Carrion Feeder
Are you even reading these posts?
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But with a Vengeful out so does the opponent.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
Yea, I'm thinking T2. I neither care about nor play extended, so I have no idea its power there.
I didn't want to wait..I'm pretty excited about building this thing. Wanted to get some inputs.
It's already looking considerably better than I thought it would.
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They are so friggin' powerful and all it takes is 1 Corrupt or Tendrils of Corruption or something similar to keep your head above water while your opponent drowns. I strongly suggest keeping them. If nothing else they are an instant "we draw the game" card that at least keeps your opponent(s) from winning.
*edit* Maybe a Death Baron as well. He pumps and he gives all those measly tokens deathtouch which makes them that much deadlier.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
04 Drowned Catacomb
04 Darkslick Shores
16 Swamp
// CREATURES (20)
04 Diregraf Ghoul
04 Walking Corpse
04 Cemetery Reaper
04 Skaab Ruinator
04 Vengeful Pharaoh
04 Go for the Throat
04 Moan of the Unhallowed
03 Zombie Infestation
03 Endless Ranks of the Dead
02 Army of the Damned
Some questions arised: is blue necessary? should i run counter stuff? Moan + Infestation is too much? Isn't 4-of AotD too much considering its cost? Really aiming to buy stuff asap before prices boost.
So in use, its best application would probably be as a lone finisher in a control deck. You don't need any other beaters in a deck with this in it, imagine it like the way a control deck might use a grave titan. It wins the game on its own. So you'd want to be using it against a 20 life opponent on turn 9-10 or so, for example.
Now in standard, it obviously isn't all that constructed powerful, for 1 simple reason; grave titan. Well 5 reasons if you include the rest. It doesn't pass that titan test, in that it costs 2 more mana and both win the game on their own, so its not an exceptionally convincing win condition. Maybe a rare usage as grave titan #3-4, taking both as a 2-3 of, in order to mix it up a little. But like so much else in this game, and this set, and the last block, and the next 2 sets, it will be a card that doesn't see play thanks to titans which should never have been printed.
But the useful tip to take from it is, if you want to use it in a casual deck, its best suited to a control sort of build, and its counter productive to put it in a deck with a bunch of other zombies. I really wish it had "Tribal - Zombie" so you could go crazy with combos like rooftop storm, but ah well. But as much thematic sense as it might make with a deck filled with diregrafs & walking corpses & phaorohs, it actually doesn't make up practical sense- all the damage you've done with weenies is irrelevant when you're finisher kills with 1 swing, so you'd be far better off playing any sort of overrun variant. But if you like theme builds, go for it
Oh and, did anyone notice how terribly underpowered moan of the unhallowed is compared to grizzly fate? Ok, no lord bonuses, but you'd usually getting twice the effect =/
Nice in-take. I believe that even if AotD was done on tribal, Rooftop will just advance it 1 turn (T6-Rooftop, T7-AotD), so not a great impact.
Grave Titan, despite a bad-ass, i don't think its a walking gg. It lacks evasion to hit, has no protection, and pops two 2/2 to a not so fast pace ("only" 2 by attacking turn), where opponent can find time to deal with it, while AotD (thirteen 2/2 right off the bat) = wrath it or gg, and foe will still have to save another wrath for 2 turns later 'cause he'll face the flashback.
Diregraf Ghoul is really good, 2/2 for B, can aggro earlier vs more controlling decks, OR pose a threat to Goblin Guides rush (slowing faster decks), or at least, draggin burning to take him out of the road.
Vengeful Pharaoh and Skaab Ruinator seems really nice guys, Pharaoh is an aggro demoralizer, people will have to make math if they wanna hit you and lose his critters vs a deck meant to swarm. Skaab can be a discard material early game (Infestation), and when your board is token fueled, you can cast him from grave, almost a Titan if we disconsider Reaper (5/6), but with an advantage, evasion (flying).
Walking Corpse is indeed a vanilla filler, which i never meant to include it on MD, this is just the birth of my thoughts on this deck (while the set is not completely spoiled), but for now, i can't think on better options to stall early game, it is this card or packing up removal, but while running Reaper, a 3/3 beating on 3rd turn seems juicy to put a clock on opponent.
Not sure, it needs testing, which is impossible right now, but it seems a path the deck can take, and transcend the mere casual light spot turned to it by this time.
My idea of play right now is on this "perfect" pattern of play is:
1st) Diregraf
2nd) Infestation (drop Pharaoh and Skaab), put a 2/2 token
3rd) Reaper
4th) Endless/Moan (Moan let Skaab comes to live, not sure if worthy tho)
...8th) Army of the Damned
Not sure if it can compete with Kulthora Goblins / Valakut (sac-damage will hurt), but it seems very resilient to deal with Caw-Blade control stuff (sword won't itchy if Pharaoh is on grave).
Well... assuming you got two more lands, you could just flashback it. And if you do, most likely those 13 tokens will outweigh whatever's on the other side of the table.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
considering the zombies etb tapped, i don't think haste is such a good idea. you're better off storming a good ol' tendrils if you're going to ramp and combo with a sorcery