He is an amazing 2-drop. He's pretty much everything the people here are saying and more because he's any spell you need when you need it. That all being said, he's still a rare in the large set of a block, so availability is going to be plentiful. So, unless you're looking for him specifically for standard and need him the moment he's legal, I'd probably hold off a bit because his price will drop a lot from pre-order.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:UWBRG MAGIC: The Gathering UWBRG
Looking at only standard, I think his value is overstated. He doesn't really fit into that many decks in standard. Looking at lists people are coming up with, all the cards he is copying don't gain too much value by being copied. I don't think he's actually very powerful as "mana leak man" or "day of judgment man" (summoner's bane and a 6-mana day of judgment don't seem that good). He feels good solely because of his versatility.
I feel like the card will see lots of play, but he wont be an auto-include. He'll certainly be a 4-of in decks with lots of instants and few finishers, like many UB control lists. It's annoying that there isn't much good hand disruption for the deck. I feel like many decks will opt for other cards, though.
It isn't so much that he 'doesnt fit into decks' that most people don't really know how to best use him.
If you are using him to recast Dismember, Ponder, and Mana Leak, you wasted 100 dollars on a playset. (Yes I know its price will drop...quite a bit...after release)
Not to mention the inevitable graveyard hate. Oh the graveyard hate.
Even if you counter their Surgical Extraction, they got tons of value off of it, because almost always you won't have enough mana left to pay for the thing you wanted to flashback.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
It isn't so much that he 'doesnt fit into decks' that most people don't really know how to best use him.
If you are using him to recast Dismember, Ponder, and Mana Leak, you wasted 100 dollars on a playset. (Yes I know its price will drop...quite a bit...after release)
Not to mention the inevitable graveyard hate. Oh the graveyard hate.
Even if you counter their Surgical Extraction, they got tons of value off of it, because almost always you won't have enough mana left to pay for the thing you wanted to flashback.
the card is very much over-valued at the moment and it will no doubt fall. Given that the two most obvious 'good' strategies immediately post rotation are tempered steel and birthing pod, neither of which interact well with the mage, i cant imagine the card maintaining its value without an initial drop. if there is a breakout deck utilizing the card i can see it regaining some of this value, but i doubt that the mage will be anywhere near as ubiquitous as SFM to warrant a $25 price tag
if your opponent sides in graveyard hate to deal with snapcaster mage you will probably win regardless as evidenced by the fact they have no idea what they are doing. they dont get 'tons of value' by using one of their cards to stop you from casting one your cards a second time, what they get is card parity at best and disadvantage at worst. as an example, if you dismember their guy (1 for 1) and then try to flash it back with the mage (turning it into a 2 for 2, or 3 for 2 depending on what you do with the mage) and they extract it in response, your opponent is no further ahead on cards, and still possibly behind on cards.
If you are using him to recast Dismember, Ponder, and Mana Leak, you wasted 100 dollars on a playset. (Yes I know its price will drop...quite a bit...after release)
Monetary values aside, I'm surprised by this statement coming from you... and I guess it's going to make me re-evaluate this card a bit more. Maybe I'm too star struck by it? I take what you have to say about this game a little more serious than the average poster.
But I'm curious as to why you think flashing back mana leak doesn't provide that much value? It seems like having that option available would be considered pretty busted to me. That, and TimeReforce again a fast aggro artifact deck.
Monetary values aside, I'm surprised by this statement coming from you... and I guess it's going to make me re-evaluate this card a bit more. Maybe I'm too star struck by it? I take what you have to say about this game a little more serious than the average poster.
But I'm curious as to why you think flashing back mana leak doesn't provide that much value? It seems like having that option available would be considered pretty busted to me. That, and TimeReforce again a fast aggro artifact deck.
It isn't enough to just turn him into a mystic snake, IMO.
I feel like this card is one that looks great on paper for standard, but in practice, things just don't turn out that way.
Flashing back mana leak does give value, but if that is what you are running him for, you probably could be running something better IMO.
Timely reinforcements seems awkward when:
A- It means you already cast it.
B- You are guaranteed one guy on the board already.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
Do remember that it's the flexibility that makes this card good, and it's not good in a deck that doesn't need it.
You wouldn't play a 1U Mana Leak and a 2UU card with the same effect in a deck if you had another 1U counterspell of equivalent value available. You'd play up to 8 good pieces of permission, and only use SCM if you were starving for more.
The same follows with kill spells.
Now, SCM will be good in standard because the kill spells have been designed to require a toobox, because major threats resist different ones. That, however, is a conscious design decision to print narrow kill spells instead of 2-3 functional Terminates, which would obviate the need for SCM.
The card pool is the only thing making this card worthwhile.
Completely and utterly disagree. You would play SCM over another 1U counterspell if the deck has other effects that it may also want to reuse. That way, you get a cryptic command-style anything-spell.
That's the key thing. Even if in your deck his most common mode is to reuse mana leak, the fact that he can also reuse ponder, dismember, or whatever else provides unbelievably utility. Needs of the deck would vary, but I'd be surprised if you wouldn't play him over 2-mana counterspells 7-8 in all cases, and over 5-6 in most cases unless specifically countering on T2 is the entire plan of your deck.
If you're playing Snapcaster Mage, you're paying more for your spells. Period.
There has to be a reason that you're willing to tack on 1U to your spells, and a chump blocker is simply not a good enough one in most cases. Redundancy is the only justification.
I'm just trying to sober people up a little bit. He's really good at providing redundancy, but he has a significant mana cost and only conditionally provides card advantage.
How is 4cmc significant if it's providing you with both a body and whatever cantrip effect you are looking for? By that rational no one should have been playing ItR.
I don't think you are doing anything, other than not understanding how Tempo works. Is SCM a automatic 4-of, I don't think he is. Certainly a 3-of though. He's purely a Tempo play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy Decks
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
For your typical control deck, he's a Cryptic Command, except that one of the modes is always "put a 2/1 into play." There are a few unusual cases, like being able to play him for 6 mana to wrath, but in most cases I think he will be used to dismember/Doom Blade, draw, or counter.
That makes him worse than Cryptic Command in Standard, but not a whole lot worse.
EDIT: Of course, it might end up being that topdecking him in the late game is like topdecking a wrath is what makes him playable.
Actually, in the old days when I had Vintage deck 10 years ago, a 1UU Ancestral Recall Dude or 2UU Time Walk Dude would be incredibly powerful. 2UB Demonic Tutor guy or 1UB Vampiric Tutor Guy also rock.
The point of this card is that it's more powerful when the card pool is more powerful. In current Standard it's powerful, but in Legacy it's just amazing (in Vintage it'll be restricted in six seconds): Sword to Plownshares, Mental Misstep, Spell Snare, Thoughtseize, Hymn to tourach, Sinkhole, Path To Exile, Disenchant, Brainstorm, Enlightened tutor, Cabal Therapy.... the list of 1cc and 2cc awesome stuff in your graveyard is amazing. AND best part of it: it becomes better with each set.
Let's say they reprint Spell Snare in Dark Ascension: your dude got better in Standard. Let's say they make some kind of tutor (a-la Merchant Scroll). Your dude got better. Imagine they print some broken cheap cost card that do U: This is insane powerful draw or B Go there and do stuff with your library. This guy just got better.
Basically this. Part of the reason this card is hyped is because of how amazing it is in formats that are not Standard (and they do not print many cards ina new set that immediately make that jump, so it is highly relevant). And we have two years of it being Standard legal for the card pool to steadily increase in its favor. Can't go wrong.
I think a key factor alongside using Snapcaster will be Mental Misstep/Gitaxian probe. The misstep counters alot of relevant things including nihil spellbomb if that becomes a thing and surgical extraction, and for no mana investment at that. Also early game trolling is welcome especially for 2 mana and a body. Gitaxian Probe is just a cantrip but it can be free and if you need to see if the coast is clear before casting a finisher Snapcaster into probe, can be just as good as a mana leak honestly.
I would have to say that Snapcaster is overrated, but he is a very powerful creature. Even in Standard, getting a Ponder back is pretty useful. Even though Sea Gate Oracle might have been slightly better, a 2/1 who Ponders for 3 is good. The fact that Snapcaster gives the versatility of being able to Doom Blade, Day of Judgment, Dismember, Timely Reinforcements, Incinerate, etc. again make him very good.
He really shines in Legacy though. For three mana, you've got Path, Mental Misstep, Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt, or Thoughtsieze, all at instant speed. He's not going to go into every deck, but he is versatile enough to give a ton of advantage when played.
I think in most Draw-Go decks I'd rather play another playset of Mana Leaks over him.
We have a winner. He's exciting as potentially extra copies of counterspells because other counterspells just suck. You still might be better off with Stoic Rebuttal if Draw-Go is viable.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A voice for Timmy.
Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
It's basically like being able to run copies 5-8 of any instant or sorcery in your deck at the additional cost of [mc]1u[/mc] AND you get a 2/1 body to boot. He's going to be a really good addition to so many decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You've got a rat in your walls, and cheese won't solve anything.
Thank you, Daesik, for not having blue-euphoria blinders on.
This guy isn't Mystic Snake. Mystic Snake was always a hard counter and it didn't rely on your previously cast cards at all.
Snapcaster Mage doesn't read "As long as this card is in your deck, instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard have flashback", nor does it read "When Snapcaster Mage enters the battlefield, you cast a copy of any instant or sorcery card on your decklist for its printed mana cost".
It's a great topdeck, it excels in the late game, but it doesn't let you run extra copies of any effect, exactly. Because an SCM Mana Leak isn't a Mana Leak... it's a different card that costs 2UU and is weaker than Dismiss. It isn't a Dismember...it costs 2U minimum. Etc. And would you play those last two cards, generally? Nah.
He's not an automatic four in every blue deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A voice for Timmy.
Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
But you might play them when they come with a 2/1 body attached. I think you are dismissing the relevance of the attached creature far too easily.
I think you're giving it too much credit. It matters when it can block Tarmogoyfs, I'd guess, or if you can bounce it with Riptide Laboratory.
On a counterspell or a removal, I'd much much prefer "draw a card" to "put a 2/1 creature token into play"
This card would have been much more exciting:
Snapcasting 1U
Instant
Up to one target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. Its flashback cost is equal to its mana cost.
Draw a card.
A voice for Timmy.
Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Imagine hand of: Liliana, Titan, Snapcaster, 4xlands.
Now this: Liliana, Titan, counter\removal, 4x lands.
Which is better, huh? I'd even take any decent draw or filter spell over him in a control deck.
Aggro-control and tempo decks? Yeah, they want him. Flashback him end of turn with counter in graveyard as backup, when opponent thinks he's safe on clear board, then equip sword and bash.
Control not so much.
To be auto 4-of in every blue deck we need broken spells and we don't have those in standart. In legacy and modern he's competing with bob, mystic and clique.
To be auto 4-of in every blue deck we need broken spells and we don't have those in standart. In legacy and modern he's competing with bob, mystic and clique.
He's basically just BETTER than Clique, at least if you have black in your deck.
to be fair, not EVERY spell can get countered
Thrun, Combust, anything played after Autumn's Veil. That's just in standard
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
Mindbreak Trap and Venser, Shaper Savant can effectively counter those
Semantics aside, that's a horrible argument for anyone to use.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
It isn't so much that he 'doesnt fit into decks' that most people don't really know how to best use him.
If you are using him to recast Dismember, Ponder, and Mana Leak, you wasted 100 dollars on a playset. (Yes I know its price will drop...quite a bit...after release)
Not to mention the inevitable graveyard hate. Oh the graveyard hate.
Even if you counter their Surgical Extraction, they got tons of value off of it, because almost always you won't have enough mana left to pay for the thing you wanted to flashback.
Twitter
the card is very much over-valued at the moment and it will no doubt fall. Given that the two most obvious 'good' strategies immediately post rotation are tempered steel and birthing pod, neither of which interact well with the mage, i cant imagine the card maintaining its value without an initial drop. if there is a breakout deck utilizing the card i can see it regaining some of this value, but i doubt that the mage will be anywhere near as ubiquitous as SFM to warrant a $25 price tag
if your opponent sides in graveyard hate to deal with snapcaster mage you will probably win regardless as evidenced by the fact they have no idea what they are doing. they dont get 'tons of value' by using one of their cards to stop you from casting one your cards a second time, what they get is card parity at best and disadvantage at worst. as an example, if you dismember their guy (1 for 1) and then try to flash it back with the mage (turning it into a 2 for 2, or 3 for 2 depending on what you do with the mage) and they extract it in response, your opponent is no further ahead on cards, and still possibly behind on cards.
Monetary values aside, I'm surprised by this statement coming from you... and I guess it's going to make me re-evaluate this card a bit more. Maybe I'm too star struck by it? I take what you have to say about this game a little more serious than the average poster.
But I'm curious as to why you think flashing back mana leak doesn't provide that much value? It seems like having that option available would be considered pretty busted to me. That, and TimeReforce again a fast aggro artifact deck.
It isn't enough to just turn him into a mystic snake, IMO.
I feel like this card is one that looks great on paper for standard, but in practice, things just don't turn out that way.
Flashing back mana leak does give value, but if that is what you are running him for, you probably could be running something better IMO.
Timely reinforcements seems awkward when:
A- It means you already cast it.
B- You are guaranteed one guy on the board already.
Twitter
Completely and utterly disagree. You would play SCM over another 1U counterspell if the deck has other effects that it may also want to reuse. That way, you get a cryptic command-style anything-spell.
That's the key thing. Even if in your deck his most common mode is to reuse mana leak, the fact that he can also reuse ponder, dismember, or whatever else provides unbelievably utility. Needs of the deck would vary, but I'd be surprised if you wouldn't play him over 2-mana counterspells 7-8 in all cases, and over 5-6 in most cases unless specifically countering on T2 is the entire plan of your deck.
How is 4cmc significant if it's providing you with both a body and whatever cantrip effect you are looking for? By that rational no one should have been playing ItR.
I don't think you are doing anything, other than not understanding how Tempo works. Is SCM a automatic 4-of, I don't think he is. Certainly a 3-of though. He's purely a Tempo play.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
That makes him worse than Cryptic Command in Standard, but not a whole lot worse.
EDIT: Of course, it might end up being that topdecking him in the late game is like topdecking a wrath is what makes him playable.
Basically this. Part of the reason this card is hyped is because of how amazing it is in formats that are not Standard (and they do not print many cards ina new set that immediately make that jump, so it is highly relevant). And we have two years of it being Standard legal for the card pool to steadily increase in its favor. Can't go wrong.
He really shines in Legacy though. For three mana, you've got Path, Mental Misstep, Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt, or Thoughtsieze, all at instant speed. He's not going to go into every deck, but he is versatile enough to give a ton of advantage when played.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
We have a winner. He's exciting as potentially extra copies of counterspells because other counterspells just suck. You still might be better off with Stoic Rebuttal if Draw-Go is viable.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Wouldn't the deck you are playing him in have a playset of mana leaks anyway...?:facepalm:
This guy isn't Mystic Snake. Mystic Snake was always a hard counter and it didn't rely on your previously cast cards at all.
Snapcaster Mage doesn't read "As long as this card is in your deck, instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard have flashback", nor does it read "When Snapcaster Mage enters the battlefield, you cast a copy of any instant or sorcery card on your decklist for its printed mana cost".
It's a great topdeck, it excels in the late game, but it doesn't let you run extra copies of any effect, exactly. Because an SCM Mana Leak isn't a Mana Leak... it's a different card that costs 2UU and is weaker than Dismiss. It isn't a Dismember...it costs 2U minimum. Etc. And would you play those last two cards, generally? Nah.
He's not an automatic four in every blue deck.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
I think you're giving it too much credit. It matters when it can block Tarmogoyfs, I'd guess, or if you can bounce it with Riptide Laboratory.
On a counterspell or a removal, I'd much much prefer "draw a card" to "put a 2/1 creature token into play"
This card would have been much more exciting:
Snapcasting 1U
Instant
Up to one target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. Its flashback cost is equal to its mana cost.
Draw a card.
Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Imagine hand of: Liliana, Titan, Snapcaster, 4xlands.
Now this: Liliana, Titan, counter\removal, 4x lands.
Which is better, huh? I'd even take any decent draw or filter spell over him in a control deck.
Aggro-control and tempo decks? Yeah, they want him. Flashback him end of turn with counter in graveyard as backup, when opponent thinks he's safe on clear board, then equip sword and bash.
Control not so much.
To be auto 4-of in every blue deck we need broken spells and we don't have those in standart. In legacy and modern he's competing with bob, mystic and clique.
Turns out Ancestral Recall, Snapcaster, Ancestral Recall to get 6 cards and a 2/1 for 4 mana is pretty good.
Standard: :symu::symu::symu: Mono-Blue Devotion :symu::symu::symu:
Modern: :symr::symu: UR Pyro-Faeries :symu::symr:
EDH Decks:
Thassa, God of VALUE (now with decklist!)
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave
People with signatures are morons.