You guys have to realize the OP is pretty horrible player as a whole. He wants no criticism that he doesn't agree with. Overall he has no idea how Cawblade worked nor has he ever ACTUALLY played cawblade. His whole "oh cawblade only ran 8 creatures" comment is evident in that. He obviously has no idea how Cawblade works. And you know he hasn't actually played it. If he isn't going to be serious why are all of you?
You seem pretty serious to me since you come into a thread bashing people when you really have no idea what you're talking about.
I actually played a good bit of caw-blade before the bannings. My build didn't have Jace due to budget issues, but I borrowed them from friends from time to time (especally for bigger events).
I did indeed play me some hawks and some stoneforges, and some batterskulls, and some swords. I also won quite often with them. Did I win grand prix? No. Did I smash some face at my local game stores? Why, yes, yes I did.
So if not competing in pro tours and whatnot makes me a bad player, then so be it.
And Without a sword, Invisible Stalker holds curiosity, so you are drawing 2 cards per turn, as early as turn 3. On turn 4 You are potentially attacking for 5 unblockable untargetable with Angelic Destiny.
For Stalker to be used to its maximum potential, the deck has to revolve around him, yes, but his power is due to the variety of cards that combo so efficiently with him.
Also, Mirran Crusader and Emeria Angel are much more fragile than Stalker.
By the way, Silhana Ledgewalker was a very useful card in its day, and Stalker is nothing more than an upgraded version of her. So can you please cease with the talks of Stalker being a "terrible card"
You're kidding, right? You do realize that Caw-Blade came from a deck called Caw-Go, which did NOT play any swords, but STILL used Squadron Hawk because of the massive amount of CA it gave you, along with the ability to kill planeswalkers and get in for damage in the long run. It was initially used for itself only, the swords came later. And Caw-Go STILL did very well.
The deck has to revolve around him, yes. That I don't agree with. You're sitting there, and saying all these situations where he's good and out and equipped/enchanted with something. That's all well and good, but that's assuming you can, every game, DO THAT. What if you don't? THAT is why he's a bad card. He's good with something equipped to him or enchanted to him, yes, I'll give you that. But just try and imagine playing the deck when you get him out and you can't equip or enchant him. What do you then, roll over and die? Or, even better, if you don't draw him. Then you're left with a bunch of enchants that aren't that good on their own, and leave your other creatures, if you're playing them, more vulnerable.
If you're playing some kind of magic where you ALWAYS have the cards you need, then fine, we're talking different games here. But assuming you're not, the card has to be evaluated on what you can do with him alone. Mirran Crusader and Emeria Angel are two cards that are obviously more fragile than him, in terms of having protection, but they BRING SOMETHING ELSE to the table. Mirran Crusader has double strike and is able to bring down other creatures, as well as present a big threat just attacking by himself. Emeria Angel produces several birds while also being able to get in there. and when equipped with a sword or enchanted, both just get better. Invisible Stalker, alone, does not do ANYTHING other than ping the opponent. If you want to continue acting like your deck will always operate the way you need it to, fine. We don't have anything to discuss.
You seem pretty serious to me since you come into a thread bashing people when you really have no idea what you're talking about.
I actually played a good bit of caw-blade before the bannings. My build didn't have Jace due to budget issues, but I borrowed them from friends from time to time (especally for bigger events).
I did indeed play me some hawks and some stoneforges, and some batterskulls, and some swords. I also won quite often with them. Did I win grand prix? No. Did I smash some face at my local game stores? Why, yes, yes I did.
So if not competing in pro tours and whatnot makes me a bad player, then so be it.
If you actually played Cawblade then you wouldn't have used "Oh but cawblade only used 8 creatures" as a defense for you putting swords in a deck like this. and you can't include inkmoth in your creature count because it deals damage in poison not actual damage. Either you solo it with an inkmoth nexus or you don't. Will it give you a swing in with a sword? Yes. It certainly will. In a format with ghost quarters and dismember you are hard pressed to swing in 4 times with it. Losing a creature to dismember is bad. Losing a land to it is even worse. Is it a great tool to help you? Absolutely. But relying on it is a road to losing. Your deck is good in theory and on paper but it needs tweaks and your counterarguments against half the people in this thread are incredibly weak.
@everycolorbutredisbroken Mirran Crusader is far from fragile. He eats burn like a punk but otherwise O.O...Lolz we both agree he is fantastic. I have a sick obsession with that damn crusader. I try to cram him in everywhere! No giggity intended. Now HE is a damn good sword holder. Emeria is a troll with honor of the pure lolz!
If you actually played Cawblade then you wouldn't have used "Oh but cawblade only used 8 creatures" as a defense for you putting swords in a deck like this. and you can't include inkmoth in your creature count because it deals damage in poison not actual damage. Either you solo it with an inkmoth nexus or you don't. Will it give you a swing in with a sword? Yes. It certainly will. In a format with ghost quarters and dismember you are hard pressed to swing in 4 times with it. Losing a creature to dismember is bad. Losing a land to it is even worse. Is it a great tool to help you? Absolutely. But relying on it is a road to losing. Your deck is good in theory and on paper but it needs tweaks and your counterarguments against half the people in this thread are incredibly weak.
That was a weak argument, I give you that. It was just an example though. Current caw-blade doesn't play 20 creatures. You don't need a huge number of creatures to make the swords worthwhile. Now can you let it go? I've played plenty of caw-blade. Maybe not as much as a lot of people, but I played it weekly for a good number of months before the bannings, where I traded everything off and built twin.
Not once did I call the deck perfect, I'm fine to criticism, but when the whole thread is people arguing "OMG YOU CAN'T PLAY SWORDS WITHOUT HAWKS" instead of giving me actual constructive advice, nothing is really being accomplished.
Sure, it could use some tweaks. Am I the best player? No. Are there people in this thread better than me? Of course. Have any of them given constructive advice besides bashing the swords? Nope.
So thank you for your time, and thank you for more bashing that does absolutely nothing to contribute to the topic, you may take your leave now.
Also, Add Color, I'd like to apologize for filling your thread up with things that aren't pertinent to your topic, and just bickering about Invisible Stalker, a card not even in your deck. Sorry about that.
No... InsertcreaturenamehereBlade decks are gone, or are now called Puresteel Paladin decks... UW, UB, or Esper Permission style control will be the way to go in the new Standard. I'm excited, I can finally go back to playing proper control.
Not sure where you've been the past couple of months, but U/B control has been a very relevant deck and it doesn't use swords at all.
4 Inkmoth Nexus, 4 Snapcaster Mage and... and.... is there really nothing like Sea Gate Oracle? Hmmm... Phyrexian Rager? Hmm..
I don't think the archetype should be forced. UW and UB have other ways of finishing people off. But, I think, if you really want to play the deck, go UW for Sun Titan and maybe Oblivion Ring.
Is anyone else thinking Mental Misstep in UB/UW Control (with Snapcaster Mage)? I hate when people say "seems good," so I'll say it seems solid (a slight improvement).
In terms of UW vs UB control, I think the difference is whether we get some really tasty graveyard food for Liliana and if black gets a one mana discard spell that's good.
As mentioned straight UW UB or Esper control is generally going to be better post rotation
Based on? I'm sorry, I was under the impression this session was called "New Card Discussion", not "Here is how the future is going to look like".
We're still waiting for almost half the set to be spoiled. A lot of established archetypes, like Valakut, Twin and RB Vampires are going to die. Caw and UB are going to lose Preordain, manlands, and some more. Pod loses Lotus Cobra, fetchlands, Sea Gate, etc. UG Blade is an existing deck and it loses less cards than the rest, and gains Invisible Stalker and Snapcaster Mage like all other versions. If we don't discuss other options when the format is wide open, then when should we? We are losing 4 sets and gaining only one and we can't look past existing archetypes? This mob mentality is killing Magic.
The problem is that there are control players in here complaining about the strategy while them not being aware that any deck running cheap threats with swords is not a control deck. It's a Tempo deck, a completely different strategy than control.
I do know that I will laughing at the guys attempting to run Snapcaster in an actual control list, because it's not as efficient and for the most part is going to be lack luster for them. This will lead to them saying that card sucks, and then most of them dropping the idea of running it until it takes off. Mark my words here, this will happen just as it happened with JTMS.
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Modern
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Control decks relying on fatties is, simply put, suboptimal. Take a gander at other formats besides standard. The best control decks are those that apply early pressure and disruption.
Invisible stalker seems all right, but only in a deck with quite a few equips and enchants. Those are slots that could be better spent on removal and counters and card draw.
Traft and snapcaster mage both seem to be effective early value threats which hold a sword well enough, along with Nexus and possibly Mirran Crusader, that seems like enough beef. Will it work? that's for the metagame and the brewers to decide. I'll certainly tinker with the notion.
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This is my my U/b control deck so far for post rotation. It puts snapcaster to pretty good use i'd say. I dont really thing he NEEDS to be paired with swords outside of white to be honest, but i think he's stronger in black.
U/b Control
Mana leak-4
Stoic rebuttal-2
Duress-3
Go for the throat-2
Dismember -3
Black Sun’s Zenith-1
Forbidden alchemy-2
Think twice-3
Visions of beyond-4
Ponder-2
This is my my U/b control deck so far for post rotation. It puts snapcaster to pretty good use i'd say. I dont really thing he NEEDS to be paired with swords outside of white to be honest, but i think he's stronger in black.
U/b Control
Mana leak-4
Stoic rebuttal-2
Duress-3
Go for the throat-2
Dismember -3
Black Sun’s Zenith-1
Forbidden alchemy-2
Think twice-3
Visions of beyond-4
Ponder-2
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
In an article on Starcitygames, Patrick Chapin discussed how well Snapcaster Mage lends to a sword-based control strategy.
I think I'd like to expand on this idea. I'm planning on creating a UB Sword deck for post rotation, but I think there are a few variables that need to be discussed here:
1. Which is the best color combination? UB, UW, or Esper. Right now my bet is on UB being the best, but who knows?
2. What draw spells should be played? Ponder, Think Twice, Visions of Beyond, Blue Sun's Zenith, Forbidden Alchemy? I believe that Think Twice is going to be the best option for a control deck, although Visions of Beyond could be potentially very powerful if you're willing to turn it on. This may become easier with the inclusion of the new UB land. Should Azure Mage be included main-deck?
3. What finishers are the best in a control deck? We currently have Consecrated Sphinx for blue. Black has Army of the Damned, Grave Titan, Bloodgift Demon, and Sorin's Vengeance. White has Sun Titan, White Sun's Zenith, and Gideon Jura. I think we can all agree that Consecrated Sphinx should be played, but is Grave Titan worth even playing anymore? If so, how many should we include?
4. What should our counter-suite look like? Is 4 Mana Leak enough or should we resort to playing lesser counterspells such as Stoic Rebuttal or Mental Misstep?
5. How many swords is the right number, what swords should we play? Should we solely play Sword of Feast and Famine, or could Sword of Body and Mind or Sword of War and Peace be included too?
6. Planeswalkers. What planeswalkers should see play? Gideon is obviously a shoe-in, but is Venser good enough? How about Lilian and Karn? Jace, Memory Adept?
6. Variables for each color. What should the UB removal suite look like, is Despise good enough to be playable? Should Solemn be played? How about the new UW and UB utility lands?
1.) As of right now, I think any of those color combinations seem to hold their own based on what INN has given us. We're still uncertain what the metagame will end up being, but hey, it's a good time to brainstorm :).
2.) I think Think Twice, Forbidden Alchemy, Ponder, Blue Sun's Zenith, and/or Consecrated Sphinx are the best general CA cards for the main deck so far. You don't have to commit too much for them and the instant spells just come casually, while you keep counters ready. From my previous cawblade experience with Azure Mage, it seems she's better as a sideboard card or a control-infested metagame. Think twice does the job you'd want Azure Mage to do in game 1 for less mana, imo.
3.) I agree with the finishers you posted except army of the damned and sorin's vengeance.
-My nitpick with army of the damned is that the creatures come into play tapped and it costs a hefty 8+ mana. The average cost for a sweeper or finisher in control decks usually ranges from 4-6 mana, which is sometimes not easy to get to. Granted, you're using Ali Aintrazi's template with the solemns, but this card can sit in your hand for quite some time. I think it's probably best as a singleton at least (much like karn), but the fact that it takes two turns to do something makes it seem not worth it (tokens can't block). Though, if you untap, you're likely to win the game.
-Sorin's vengeance is basically an overcosted red X spell like Fireball that's programmed to only deal 10 damage. Again, you're likely to sit on this for a while during a game, but compared to army, this at least does something once resolved. However, on it's own, it does almost nothing significant. A control opponent could be at 20 life and would probably let this resolve to save counter magic resources. In comparison to a beater, this spell doesn't exactly put a clock on your opponent, but instead, either finishes the job or starts the job of depleting life. I think I'd rather run consume spirit if the deck had a lot of black mana resources because consume spirit has the versatility of hitting creatures early or finishing off an opponent.
-I think I'd add Wurmcoil Engine to the list of possible finishers as well. It has the sorin's vengeance effect if it hits your opponent (lose life/gain life), and it recurs from death effects. Its major weakness is pretty much just creature steal or exile effects (since it's only one body at first).
4.) At the very least, there should be 4 mana leaks. The choice of other counterspells will vary on metagame and other spoiled cards (I heard a rumor that dissipate is being reprinted). If we need to branch to other counterspells, I'd go for generic ones like cancel/stoic, psychic barrier, or negate before anything else.
5.) After playing with cawblade for quite some time, I've discovered that the sword isn't necessarily the focal point of the blade control decks anymore. It helps when you get it, but you can disrupt and control just fine without it. For that reason, I think one or none is the way to go with swords post-rotation. The sword(s) slot(s), I think, is pretty much a niche card slot now.
Cawblade right now can run 10 or less creatures that can connect with the sword because of squadron hawk's creature replacement engine that draws the other hawks. Without that, you need a higher creature count to equip the swords. Otherwise, you're just drawing swords waiting for creatures to pop out of your deck.
Feast and Famine or War and Peace are the best sword options, in my opinion. Body and mind, at least for a control deck, is counter-intuitive because of the graveyard shenanigans available in INN. I think something like Loxodon Warhammer would be optimal as the niche equipment card, but it doesn't seem like we're getting one anytime soon. War and Peace comes kinda close, though. The nature of Feast and Famine's abilities is synergetic with what a control deck wants to do -- keep reactive spells ready and gain more resources over the opponent.
6.) I think the best planeswalkers for control are the ones that you don't have to build around or commit to.
-I think Venser is more build-around than ever after losing key cards like sea gate oracle, spreading seas, etc. I, for one, think control's 4+ drops should have enough consistency that they affect the gamestate immediately if resolved. The only thing remotely useful about Venser in a control deck is his ultimate, and it doesn't necessarily win you the game. However, it does affect the game where things go more in your favor. In the end, he's like the swords, where he's more of a niche card. He's good when he's added to the already strong parts of your deck, making him somewhat of an "icing on the cake". I personally think he belongs in pod decks or decks that abuse ETB abilities (living weapon effects, for example).
-I'm not sure how to feel about the new Liliana, but the fact that she kinda fills the role of Gatekeeper of Malakir is a plus for a 3 CMC planeswalker. Her first ability is great when you have no cards in hand or are willing to pitch cards. I doubt her ultimate will be used much unless you're bored of your opponent's empty bored presence and want to kill his lands (lol). At the very least she's an extra removal spell.
-Karn is great as a singleton, and I rate him higher than Venser. While he does not actually win you the game, he turns the game in your favor after he resolves, making him a threat more than a finisher. His first two abilities are all you really need because they affect the game for as long as he remains in play, which means no commitment is needed for Karn to wreak havoc. Commitment does reward you extra "free spells" a turn, though.
-Jace, Memory Adept is definitely a more unique planeswalker than his previous forms, but if you're looking for a CA engine, I wouldn't look to him as my first option. In comparison to the planeswalkers above, he does have the potential to win a game in a matter of turns. However, the angle that he attacks through is different from a normal control deck. Control decks usually try to manipulate their opponent's resources and turn the game around with a beater that aims to deplete life. Jace, on the other hand, aims to deplete the deck, so it's like restarting the game in a sense (compare this with poison vs normal damage). I personally think he belongs in a deck that capitalizes on deck depletion, so that you don't start from square one when you get to resolve him. I'd also like to note that milling an opposing player can be a risky strategy with the graveyard shenanigans coming up in INN.
7.)
-The removal suite depends on what the meta looks like, so I'll leave that subject at that. Same goes for solemn.
-Despise could be good for a while alongside mana leak. I think you're most likely going to hit creatures unless you come across a control deck. Despise hits key creatures, while mana leak hits the other stuff you don't want. If you feel like discarding a bit later in the game, Distress might just be better as it's more of a catch-all like mana leak.
-I think the UB utility falls under the same category with Jace as it's a library depletion strategy. However, give yourself a high-five if you nail a planeswalker or something cool with it. The UW utility land, however follows suit with control's strategy of resource management (dead creature into token), and the creature has evasion. It's synergetic with a sword strategy, but even without it, it adds a push towards a win with life depletion. Its evasion is a bit handy against some planeswalker-based decks, too (kinda what hawks did before the blade strategy developed).
________________________________
If anyone's interested here's a UW list I'm working on (and constantly changing):
So what does everybody think about the new spoiled enchantment? Everybody was telling me to not play the blade, and I'm really thinking that Heartless Summoning might want to be played instead.
I'm not saying that it fills the same role, but before I was just using the sword as somewhat early pressure, and just a powerful tool in general for a control based strategy. I feel as though Heartless Summoning will be better in UB control than anywhere else, unless it pops up in some combo deck. I also believe it makes Bloodgift Demon much more playable, since it turns him into literally Phyrexian Arena on a stick. While it does lack synergy with Snapcaster Mage, I'm not sure that's a huge deal, since I'm getting a lot of value out of the card before it sees play anyway, and turn 4 titan/sphinx seems too good to pass up, even if it does make them die to dismember.
So what does everybody think about the new spoiled enchantment? Everybody was telling me to not play the blade, and I'm really thinking that Heartless Summoning might want to be played instead.
I'm not saying that it fills the same role, but before I was just using the sword as somewhat early pressure, and just a powerful tool in general for a control based strategy. I feel as though Heartless Summoning will be better in UB control than anywhere else, unless it pops up in some combo deck. I also believe it makes Bloodgift Demon much more playable, since it turns him into literally Phyrexian Arena on a stick. While it does lack synergy with Snapcaster Mage, I'm not sure that's a huge deal, since I'm getting a lot of value out of the card before it sees play anyway, and turn 4 titan/sphinx seems too good to pass up, even if it does make them die to dismember.
If I'm not playing the swords the inkmoth isn't needed but I didn't alter the mana-base at all from the previous list. Thoughts?
I really don't think Heartless Summoning belongs in a control deck -- even as a niche card. It does nothing to impact the game state, which is what a control deck is supposed to do with their cards. Control's objective is to gain resource advantage over the opponent.
Here's what I mean:
-Grave Titan (makes dudes; 3 body board presence)
-Solemn Simulacrum (gets land and draws when dead; board presence + tempo advantage)
-Snapcaster mage (reuse disruption; pseudo card advantage)
Heartless Summoning brings your big guys down faster, but it's a two card interaction in which the enchantment does nothing on its own. The cards above created board presence + other stuff. The other stuff is something that advances you ahead on resources over your opponent.
I think heartless summoning belongs in an aggro to midrange deck. If you think of it in that concept, their mana costs are relatively lower, meaning they can possibly drop multiple creatures per turn, increasing board presence quickly, which is more than it would do in a control deck.
The rest of your ub deck has cards that contribute to the success of other cards. The enchantment only contributes to playing creatures, which is not what control is trying to do. You only have 11 creatures, so imagine drawing the enchantment with no creatures. It's a dead card.. Aggro and midrange decks, however have 20+ creatures, so it connects to do it's little "combo".
I really don't think Heartless Summoning belongs in a control deck -- even as a niche card. It does nothing to impact the game state, which is what a control deck is supposed to do with their cards. Control's objective is to gain resource advantage over the opponent.
Here's what I mean:
-Grave Titan (makes dudes; 3 body board presence)
-Solemn Simulacrum (gets land and draws when dead; board presence + tempo advantage)
-Snapcaster mage (reuse disruption; pseudo card advantage)
Heartless Summoning brings your big guys down faster, but it's a two card interaction in which the enchantment does nothing on its own. The cards above created board presence + other stuff. The other stuff is something that advances you ahead on resources over your opponent.
I think heartless summoning belongs in an aggro to midrange deck. If you think of it in that concept, their mana costs are relatively lower, meaning they can possibly drop multiple creatures per turn, increasing board presence quickly, which is more than it would do in a control deck.
The rest of your ub deck has cards that contribute to the success of other cards. The enchantment only contributes to playing creatures, which is not what control is trying to do. You only have 11 creatures, so imagine drawing the enchantment with no creatures. It's a dead card.. Aggro and midrange decks, however have 20+ creatures, so it connects to do it's little "combo".
I see what you're saying, and you're right of course. I believe that I just really want Bloodgift Demon to be playable, but at 5 I don't think he is. His Phyrexian Arena ability is so powerful though, so that makes me sadfaced to see him rot away.
I see what you're saying, and you're right of course. I believe that I just really want Bloodgift Demon to be playable, but at 5 I don't think he is. His Phyrexian Arena ability is so powerful though, so that makes me sadfaced to see him rot away.
I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that he's unplayable. In a way, he's somewhat of an alternate consecrated sphinx. 5 mana is actually pretty good for what he does -- he has a 5/x body, flies, and has continual card advantage over time. In fact, in some ways, I'd say he's a shadow of Seizan, Perverter of Truth, which saw some play in mono black control around Kamigawa standard. If not now, I think he'll shine when Scars of Mirrodin rotates out. Once again, we need to see how the metagame shapes up to decide that. It doesn't win the dismember test, but black has the power of information, so you may be able to sneak him in when the coast is clear. On rare occasions, you may even be able to finish off an opponent with his trigger.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor, was once thought to be "average" during the Shards of Alara-Zendikar Standard with decks like Jund roaming around to diminish his effectiveness. He got banned during Zendikar-Scars Standard when stoneforge and friends abused the hell out of overwhelming card advantage. The lesson here is that a metagame shift is the "litmus test" for card viability in constructed formats.
Sever the Bloodline (3B sorcery, exile target creature and all other creatures with the same name as that creature, flashback 5BB) is a great answer to Tempered Steel; it will also hit all Germ tokens created by living weapons. Definitely a solid removal option for black, though too expensive to be a 4-of main deck. Also debating a miser's Visions of Beyond.
Also all the people that think Snapcaster isn't suited for straight up control decks need to think again he is absolutely amazing in control and will be a staple until he rotates
Inkmoth Nexus still counts with Tectonic Edge in the format, and for those purposes Tectonic Edge is strictly better, seeing as how you don't put yourself at a mana disadvantage, lol.
And how many games tapping out to equip nexus have won you compared to just hawking them to death in old cawblade?
whoops i totally forgot about that. I'm not reall sure how to build U/b yet until we see whether theres a 1 drop targeted discard spell or not. I'm hoping something decent is made
And how many games tapping out to equip nexus have won you compared to just hawking them to death in old cawblade?
Seeing as how there is a lot of aggro in my meta, hawks never really killed anyone. It was usually Gideon, Batterskull, etc that would do the job. To be fair, I probably did close out more games with inkmoth than squadron hawk, because by the time I was ready to equip a batterskull to anything it was usually an inkmoth nexus.
Everyone that thinks Bladecontrol decks are dead is just trying to fool themselves. I've played cawblade since NPH came out (still playing it after the bannings) and if Innistrad was legal right now I would still be playing it. The loss of squadron hawk hurts a little, but there is no way the deck is dead. Valakut and twin are the only tough MU's, and with the loss of all the mana ramp decks Mana Leak get's a lot better. I'm not sure if Invisible Stalker will be the direction the deck want's to go because it's terrible on its own, but I currently have 3 copies in my SB of the list I'll start testing when the full spoiler is finished.
As long as the decklist has 10-12 creatures, Moorland Haunt will give the deck the same reach that squadron hawk did. And without the ramp/twin decks to worry about it will be easy to MD for Pod and Aggro. I have full confidence that blade-control will be better post rotation than it is right now, because it has less to worry about. When DKA comes out that might change, but right now Innistrad isn't going to provide us with a strategy that is more unfair than sword of feast and famine + counters.
The more I think about it the more I'm convinced Invisible Stalker is actually better in the new format than Hawks were in the old. Just give him a UG-Sword and Recall the living **** out of your opponents with Visions of Beyond. Add Boneyard Wurm or the new Tarmogoyf in green and call it a day. Snapcaster Mage can get some pretty good green spells too, you know?
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You seem pretty serious to me since you come into a thread bashing people when you really have no idea what you're talking about.
I actually played a good bit of caw-blade before the bannings. My build didn't have Jace due to budget issues, but I borrowed them from friends from time to time (especally for bigger events).
I did indeed play me some hawks and some stoneforges, and some batterskulls, and some swords. I also won quite often with them. Did I win grand prix? No. Did I smash some face at my local game stores? Why, yes, yes I did.
So if not competing in pro tours and whatnot makes me a bad player, then so be it.
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You're kidding, right? You do realize that Caw-Blade came from a deck called Caw-Go, which did NOT play any swords, but STILL used Squadron Hawk because of the massive amount of CA it gave you, along with the ability to kill planeswalkers and get in for damage in the long run. It was initially used for itself only, the swords came later. And Caw-Go STILL did very well.
The deck has to revolve around him, yes. That I don't agree with. You're sitting there, and saying all these situations where he's good and out and equipped/enchanted with something. That's all well and good, but that's assuming you can, every game, DO THAT. What if you don't? THAT is why he's a bad card. He's good with something equipped to him or enchanted to him, yes, I'll give you that. But just try and imagine playing the deck when you get him out and you can't equip or enchant him. What do you then, roll over and die? Or, even better, if you don't draw him. Then you're left with a bunch of enchants that aren't that good on their own, and leave your other creatures, if you're playing them, more vulnerable.
If you're playing some kind of magic where you ALWAYS have the cards you need, then fine, we're talking different games here. But assuming you're not, the card has to be evaluated on what you can do with him alone. Mirran Crusader and Emeria Angel are two cards that are obviously more fragile than him, in terms of having protection, but they BRING SOMETHING ELSE to the table. Mirran Crusader has double strike and is able to bring down other creatures, as well as present a big threat just attacking by himself. Emeria Angel produces several birds while also being able to get in there. and when equipped with a sword or enchanted, both just get better. Invisible Stalker, alone, does not do ANYTHING other than ping the opponent. If you want to continue acting like your deck will always operate the way you need it to, fine. We don't have anything to discuss.
If you actually played Cawblade then you wouldn't have used "Oh but cawblade only used 8 creatures" as a defense for you putting swords in a deck like this. and you can't include inkmoth in your creature count because it deals damage in poison not actual damage. Either you solo it with an inkmoth nexus or you don't. Will it give you a swing in with a sword? Yes. It certainly will. In a format with ghost quarters and dismember you are hard pressed to swing in 4 times with it. Losing a creature to dismember is bad. Losing a land to it is even worse. Is it a great tool to help you? Absolutely. But relying on it is a road to losing. Your deck is good in theory and on paper but it needs tweaks and your counterarguments against half the people in this thread are incredibly weak.
@everycolorbutredisbroken Mirran Crusader is far from fragile. He eats burn like a punk but otherwise O.O...Lolz we both agree he is fantastic. I have a sick obsession with that damn crusader. I try to cram him in everywhere! No giggity intended. Now HE is a damn good sword holder. Emeria is a troll with honor of the pure lolz!
That was a weak argument, I give you that. It was just an example though. Current caw-blade doesn't play 20 creatures. You don't need a huge number of creatures to make the swords worthwhile. Now can you let it go? I've played plenty of caw-blade. Maybe not as much as a lot of people, but I played it weekly for a good number of months before the bannings, where I traded everything off and built twin.
Not once did I call the deck perfect, I'm fine to criticism, but when the whole thread is people arguing "OMG YOU CAN'T PLAY SWORDS WITHOUT HAWKS" instead of giving me actual constructive advice, nothing is really being accomplished.
Sure, it could use some tweaks. Am I the best player? No. Are there people in this thread better than me? Of course. Have any of them given constructive advice besides bashing the swords? Nope.
So thank you for your time, and thank you for more bashing that does absolutely nothing to contribute to the topic, you may take your leave now.
Buylist
Not sure where you've been the past couple of months, but U/B control has been a very relevant deck and it doesn't use swords at all.
I don't think the archetype should be forced. UW and UB have other ways of finishing people off. But, I think, if you really want to play the deck, go UW for Sun Titan and maybe Oblivion Ring.
Is anyone else thinking Mental Misstep in UB/UW Control (with Snapcaster Mage)? I hate when people say "seems good," so I'll say it seems solid (a slight improvement).
In terms of UW vs UB control, I think the difference is whether we get some really tasty graveyard food for Liliana and if black gets a one mana discard spell that's good.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Skinshifter
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Mental Misstep
4 Mana Leak
3 Vapor Snag
3 Mutagenic Growth
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Hinterland Harbor
8 Forest
7 Island
Just an idea
Based on? I'm sorry, I was under the impression this session was called "New Card Discussion", not "Here is how the future is going to look like".
We're still waiting for almost half the set to be spoiled. A lot of established archetypes, like Valakut, Twin and RB Vampires are going to die. Caw and UB are going to lose Preordain, manlands, and some more. Pod loses Lotus Cobra, fetchlands, Sea Gate, etc. UG Blade is an existing deck and it loses less cards than the rest, and gains Invisible Stalker and Snapcaster Mage like all other versions. If we don't discuss other options when the format is wide open, then when should we? We are losing 4 sets and gaining only one and we can't look past existing archetypes? This mob mentality is killing Magic.
I do know that I will laughing at the guys attempting to run Snapcaster in an actual control list, because it's not as efficient and for the most part is going to be lack luster for them. This will lead to them saying that card sucks, and then most of them dropping the idea of running it until it takes off. Mark my words here, this will happen just as it happened with JTMS.
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Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Invisible stalker seems all right, but only in a deck with quite a few equips and enchants. Those are slots that could be better spent on removal and counters and card draw.
Traft and snapcaster mage both seem to be effective early value threats which hold a sword well enough, along with Nexus and possibly Mirran Crusader, that seems like enough beef. Will it work? that's for the metagame and the brewers to decide. I'll certainly tinker with the notion.
Those who hesitate in the face of greatness have already lost.
I write for EoV. Feel free to check out my articles:
U/b Control
Mana leak-4
Stoic rebuttal-2
Duress-3
Go for the throat-2
Dismember -3
Black Sun’s Zenith-1
Forbidden alchemy-2
Think twice-3
Visions of beyond-4
Ponder-2
Lilliana of the veil-2
Snapcaster Mage-3
Consecrated Sphinx-1
Grave Titan-2
26 land
Sideboard
Distress-1
Duress-1
Despise-3
Surgical extraction-3
Consecrated Sphinx-1
Dismember-1
Negate-2
Flashfreeze-1
Black sun’s zenith-2
Duress rotates.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
1.) As of right now, I think any of those color combinations seem to hold their own based on what INN has given us. We're still uncertain what the metagame will end up being, but hey, it's a good time to brainstorm :).
2.) I think Think Twice, Forbidden Alchemy, Ponder, Blue Sun's Zenith, and/or Consecrated Sphinx are the best general CA cards for the main deck so far. You don't have to commit too much for them and the instant spells just come casually, while you keep counters ready. From my previous cawblade experience with Azure Mage, it seems she's better as a sideboard card or a control-infested metagame. Think twice does the job you'd want Azure Mage to do in game 1 for less mana, imo.
3.) I agree with the finishers you posted except army of the damned and sorin's vengeance.
-My nitpick with army of the damned is that the creatures come into play tapped and it costs a hefty 8+ mana. The average cost for a sweeper or finisher in control decks usually ranges from 4-6 mana, which is sometimes not easy to get to. Granted, you're using Ali Aintrazi's template with the solemns, but this card can sit in your hand for quite some time. I think it's probably best as a singleton at least (much like karn), but the fact that it takes two turns to do something makes it seem not worth it (tokens can't block). Though, if you untap, you're likely to win the game.
-Sorin's vengeance is basically an overcosted red X spell like Fireball that's programmed to only deal 10 damage. Again, you're likely to sit on this for a while during a game, but compared to army, this at least does something once resolved. However, on it's own, it does almost nothing significant. A control opponent could be at 20 life and would probably let this resolve to save counter magic resources. In comparison to a beater, this spell doesn't exactly put a clock on your opponent, but instead, either finishes the job or starts the job of depleting life. I think I'd rather run consume spirit if the deck had a lot of black mana resources because consume spirit has the versatility of hitting creatures early or finishing off an opponent.
-I think I'd add Wurmcoil Engine to the list of possible finishers as well. It has the sorin's vengeance effect if it hits your opponent (lose life/gain life), and it recurs from death effects. Its major weakness is pretty much just creature steal or exile effects (since it's only one body at first).
4.) At the very least, there should be 4 mana leaks. The choice of other counterspells will vary on metagame and other spoiled cards (I heard a rumor that dissipate is being reprinted). If we need to branch to other counterspells, I'd go for generic ones like cancel/stoic, psychic barrier, or negate before anything else.
5.) After playing with cawblade for quite some time, I've discovered that the sword isn't necessarily the focal point of the blade control decks anymore. It helps when you get it, but you can disrupt and control just fine without it. For that reason, I think one or none is the way to go with swords post-rotation. The sword(s) slot(s), I think, is pretty much a niche card slot now.
Cawblade right now can run 10 or less creatures that can connect with the sword because of squadron hawk's creature replacement engine that draws the other hawks. Without that, you need a higher creature count to equip the swords. Otherwise, you're just drawing swords waiting for creatures to pop out of your deck.
Feast and Famine or War and Peace are the best sword options, in my opinion. Body and mind, at least for a control deck, is counter-intuitive because of the graveyard shenanigans available in INN. I think something like Loxodon Warhammer would be optimal as the niche equipment card, but it doesn't seem like we're getting one anytime soon. War and Peace comes kinda close, though. The nature of Feast and Famine's abilities is synergetic with what a control deck wants to do -- keep reactive spells ready and gain more resources over the opponent.
6.) I think the best planeswalkers for control are the ones that you don't have to build around or commit to.
-I think Venser is more build-around than ever after losing key cards like sea gate oracle, spreading seas, etc. I, for one, think control's 4+ drops should have enough consistency that they affect the gamestate immediately if resolved. The only thing remotely useful about Venser in a control deck is his ultimate, and it doesn't necessarily win you the game. However, it does affect the game where things go more in your favor. In the end, he's like the swords, where he's more of a niche card. He's good when he's added to the already strong parts of your deck, making him somewhat of an "icing on the cake". I personally think he belongs in pod decks or decks that abuse ETB abilities (living weapon effects, for example).
-I'm not sure how to feel about the new Liliana, but the fact that she kinda fills the role of Gatekeeper of Malakir is a plus for a 3 CMC planeswalker. Her first ability is great when you have no cards in hand or are willing to pitch cards. I doubt her ultimate will be used much unless you're bored of your opponent's empty bored presence and want to kill his lands (lol). At the very least she's an extra removal spell.
-Karn is great as a singleton, and I rate him higher than Venser. While he does not actually win you the game, he turns the game in your favor after he resolves, making him a threat more than a finisher. His first two abilities are all you really need because they affect the game for as long as he remains in play, which means no commitment is needed for Karn to wreak havoc. Commitment does reward you extra "free spells" a turn, though.
-Jace, Memory Adept is definitely a more unique planeswalker than his previous forms, but if you're looking for a CA engine, I wouldn't look to him as my first option. In comparison to the planeswalkers above, he does have the potential to win a game in a matter of turns. However, the angle that he attacks through is different from a normal control deck. Control decks usually try to manipulate their opponent's resources and turn the game around with a beater that aims to deplete life. Jace, on the other hand, aims to deplete the deck, so it's like restarting the game in a sense (compare this with poison vs normal damage). I personally think he belongs in a deck that capitalizes on deck depletion, so that you don't start from square one when you get to resolve him. I'd also like to note that milling an opposing player can be a risky strategy with the graveyard shenanigans coming up in INN.
7.)
-The removal suite depends on what the meta looks like, so I'll leave that subject at that. Same goes for solemn.
-Despise could be good for a while alongside mana leak. I think you're most likely going to hit creatures unless you come across a control deck. Despise hits key creatures, while mana leak hits the other stuff you don't want. If you feel like discarding a bit later in the game, Distress might just be better as it's more of a catch-all like mana leak.
-I think the UB utility falls under the same category with Jace as it's a library depletion strategy. However, give yourself a high-five if you nail a planeswalker or something cool with it. The UW utility land, however follows suit with control's strategy of resource management (dead creature into token), and the creature has evasion. It's synergetic with a sword strategy, but even without it, it adds a push towards a win with life depletion. Its evasion is a bit handy against some planeswalker-based decks, too (kinda what hawks did before the blade strategy developed).
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If anyone's interested here's a UW list I'm working on (and constantly changing):
1 Phantasmal Image
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Blade Splicer
2 Sun Titan
Artifacts (1)
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Gideon Jura
2 Day of Judgment
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Disperse
4 Mana Leak
4 Ponder
4 Think Twice
2 Stoic Rebuttal
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Moorland Haunt
7 Island
6 Plains
MTG Rules Advisor
Standard
UW UW Control
B MBC (developing)
Legacy
WUG Bant
I'm not saying that it fills the same role, but before I was just using the sword as somewhat early pressure, and just a powerful tool in general for a control based strategy. I feel as though Heartless Summoning will be better in UB control than anywhere else, unless it pops up in some combo deck. I also believe it makes Bloodgift Demon much more playable, since it turns him into literally Phyrexian Arena on a stick. While it does lack synergy with Snapcaster Mage, I'm not sure that's a huge deal, since I'm getting a lot of value out of the card before it sees play anyway, and turn 4 titan/sphinx seems too good to pass up, even if it does make them die to dismember.
Here is the list I'm looking at
3 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Bloodgift Demon
1 Grave Titan
4 Think Twice
4 Mana Leak
2 Doom Blade
2 Dismember
2 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Go for the Throat
1 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Despise
2 Heartless Summoning
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Inkmoth Nexus
8 Island
If I'm not playing the swords the inkmoth isn't needed but I didn't alter the mana-base at all from the previous list. Thoughts?
Buylist
I really don't think Heartless Summoning belongs in a control deck -- even as a niche card. It does nothing to impact the game state, which is what a control deck is supposed to do with their cards. Control's objective is to gain resource advantage over the opponent.
Here's what I mean:
-Grave Titan (makes dudes; 3 body board presence)
-Solemn Simulacrum (gets land and draws when dead; board presence + tempo advantage)
-Snapcaster mage (reuse disruption; pseudo card advantage)
Heartless Summoning brings your big guys down faster, but it's a two card interaction in which the enchantment does nothing on its own. The cards above created board presence + other stuff. The other stuff is something that advances you ahead on resources over your opponent.
I think heartless summoning belongs in an aggro to midrange deck. If you think of it in that concept, their mana costs are relatively lower, meaning they can possibly drop multiple creatures per turn, increasing board presence quickly, which is more than it would do in a control deck.
The rest of your ub deck has cards that contribute to the success of other cards. The enchantment only contributes to playing creatures, which is not what control is trying to do. You only have 11 creatures, so imagine drawing the enchantment with no creatures. It's a dead card.. Aggro and midrange decks, however have 20+ creatures, so it connects to do it's little "combo".
MTG Rules Advisor
Standard
UW UW Control
B MBC (developing)
Legacy
WUG Bant
I see what you're saying, and you're right of course. I believe that I just really want Bloodgift Demon to be playable, but at 5 I don't think he is. His Phyrexian Arena ability is so powerful though, so that makes me sadfaced to see him rot away.
Buylist
I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that he's unplayable. In a way, he's somewhat of an alternate consecrated sphinx. 5 mana is actually pretty good for what he does -- he has a 5/x body, flies, and has continual card advantage over time. In fact, in some ways, I'd say he's a shadow of Seizan, Perverter of Truth, which saw some play in mono black control around Kamigawa standard. If not now, I think he'll shine when Scars of Mirrodin rotates out. Once again, we need to see how the metagame shapes up to decide that. It doesn't win the dismember test, but black has the power of information, so you may be able to sneak him in when the coast is clear. On rare occasions, you may even be able to finish off an opponent with his trigger.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor, was once thought to be "average" during the Shards of Alara-Zendikar Standard with decks like Jund roaming around to diminish his effectiveness. He got banned during Zendikar-Scars Standard when stoneforge and friends abused the hell out of overwhelming card advantage. The lesson here is that a metagame shift is the "litmus test" for card viability in constructed formats.
MTG Rules Advisor
Standard
UW UW Control
B MBC (developing)
Legacy
WUG Bant
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacombs
3 Ghost Quarter
8 Swamp
6 Island
Creatures 8
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Phantasmal Image
Spells 22
3 Despise
2 Distress
1 Geth's Verdict
2 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
1 Sever the Bloodline
4 Mana Leak
2 Stoic Rebuttal
1 Cancel
4 Think Twice
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Sever the Bloodline
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Spellskite
Sever the Bloodline (3B sorcery, exile target creature and all other creatures with the same name as that creature, flashback 5BB) is a great answer to Tempered Steel; it will also hit all Germ tokens created by living weapons. Definitely a solid removal option for black, though too expensive to be a 4-of main deck. Also debating a miser's Visions of Beyond.
Also all the people that think Snapcaster isn't suited for straight up control decks need to think again he is absolutely amazing in control and will be a staple until he rotates
And how many games tapping out to equip nexus have won you compared to just hawking them to death in old cawblade?
whoops i totally forgot about that. I'm not reall sure how to build U/b yet until we see whether theres a 1 drop targeted discard spell or not. I'm hoping something decent is made
Seeing as how there is a lot of aggro in my meta, hawks never really killed anyone. It was usually Gideon, Batterskull, etc that would do the job. To be fair, I probably did close out more games with inkmoth than squadron hawk, because by the time I was ready to equip a batterskull to anything it was usually an inkmoth nexus.
Buylist
As long as the decklist has 10-12 creatures, Moorland Haunt will give the deck the same reach that squadron hawk did. And without the ramp/twin decks to worry about it will be easy to MD for Pod and Aggro. I have full confidence that blade-control will be better post rotation than it is right now, because it has less to worry about. When DKA comes out that might change, but right now Innistrad isn't going to provide us with a strategy that is more unfair than sword of feast and famine + counters.