I have been playing magic since 1994, and have quit a couple times- always coming back (obviously)- each time because the game had changed drastically. The first was when Urza's Saga was released- I won a box in a T2 tournament, and realized that the cards were so powerful I'd have to spend a fortune trying to keep up. Mirrodin was the second exodus, when artifacts had been raised to a level of importance and color pie busting that I'd seen as egregious. I'm also the guy who refuses to play with someone who wants to use proxies for cards they don't own, and is annoyed by proxies for cards they do own.
Innistrad, however, has broken a major tenet of the game- the card backs. As ugly as the old deckmaster card backs have been for the last 18 years, We've grown accustomed to them. There's been talk of a 6th color, and Barry's land, but I'd welcome those two ideas long before I would welcome DFC's. I know change is an important part of keeping any game alive, but I simply see this as being too frustrating and annoying to be ok.
I know I'm not the first to post on this, so mods- let me be clear. The point of this thread is to find out what others think with regards to the following- will you quit magic over this? Will you shy away from playing people who use DFC's? (which I will probably do) Or will you embrace the new, and roll with the punches?
This shakes me at my core, and has made me take a step back from magic.
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It disturbs me greatly, but...I'll roll with it. I'm a very adaptive creature(did I use that word right?) when I need to be, and I'm usually the first person in my meta to adapt to these changes, so I feel like it's some kind of responsibility of mine to do so.
Also, I just think they'll be plain fun. My only concern isthe same as when they made Flip Cards: This just made the game THAT much harder to teach to new people...
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Its a game, it needs to change to keep being interesting. I dont see the issue with the flip cards and I have been playing since 1994 also. I enjoy playing the game.
They're here for a block. After that, do you think we'll ever see them again?
Wizards should leverage the opportunity, and make full-size split cards, and creatures that can be played on either side; but none of these are particularly good, yet alone exciting, developments.
That's perhaps the worst part of the two-face cards: After all the hooplah, they're not very exciting.
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The frustration is probably with them having no cardback. This makes them unplayable except in the right kind of sleeve, which not everyone uses, believe it or not. I play casually. All of my decks that have no real money in them, or cards that aren't foil/mythic/super-money that I know I'll never get rid of? Not sleeved. If I want to play werewolves, which I do, I'll be buying sleeves specifically for them
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I don't think it's such a big deal. If design wasn't willing to take risks, where would the game be?
If it doesn't work at all, it will never be back, ever (and neither will anything else that messes with the card backs). Innistrad will be seen as a risk that didn't end up working. Big deal, everyone will move on after a year (two because of standard).
If it turns out to be fun, then that's better for everyone, and we'll be glad that they did it.
I refuse to say that I'll quit over something before I've even played with it, and it would take something annoying coming back to actually make me think of quitting.
Before some great wit comes in here and asks why you're only complaining about flip cards now, seven years after they came out, what you're referring to in the OP are actually "double sided cards".
theyre doing it on less than 20 cards in one set, and probably no more than 50 in total in the block
if you dont like them, dont play with them
the cards themselves are rather intuitive if you just read up on the rules
they all flip and unflip the exact same ways, so i dont see how that is frustrating, can you explain?
It's annoying that you have to use proxies or sleeves to play with. This loosens the restrictions on what one can do with proxies and sleeves, for one, and also the ability to simply shuffle up cards and play with no proxies or sleeves. It also makes things confusing for beginners. Despite the fact that it will make up less than 10% of a set, it's still out there. I just find it annoying. One of the major things that SAVED magic was keeping the backs of the expansion cards the same, rather than changing them (see the story of Arabian Nights- the backs were originally supposed to look like the packs- pink... :cool2:)
On the simplest level- it's a new layer of complexity that is problematic. On the level of someone who has been playing for a long time, it just bugs the crap out of me that there are now cards with no real "back".
EDIT: I truly hope they're only here for a block, and I'd be crazy to hope it's only one set... But knowing Wizards and MaRo, they don't do ANYTHING once, no matter how much of an abomination it is on it's first incarnation- Buyback? Storm? They even tried to bastardize affinity, which will be biting asses in Modern before long...
Check out my blog, an EDH / Commander Odyssey- 27 (and hopefully soon to be 32) decklists of EDH / Commander decks built from my collection. Comments needed and appreciated.
Aktuba, I see where you are coming from, and I do not blame you for frustration. I myself, am a newbie. Not that I do not know how to play the game, I have come to learn how to play the game very well from when I started October of 2010. Being a newbie, this is the first drastic change I am expieriencing in card design and how you play the game of magic.
Another thing I understand is that you are a veteran, and that when you have been around something for so long, you hate to see it change. For me, the only thing I can relate with drastic change is college, where I have just started my freshman year at my university and I am not liking it at first because it is such a drastic change. But I am sure that you know that this discomfort will not last forever for me, since if you have been playing Magic since 1994 you have probably been in college already. I also know that this discomfort will dissapear in a little while.
What I'm trying to get at is give the flip cards a chance. They may be terrible, or the may be great, or they may be medicore. We don't know yet, and we will never know if we just shun them away before we can get a chance to hold them in our hands.
I, a complete stranger to you, am asking you to not quit just because of a new type of card. If you have been playing since the start, then you obviously have some sort of love for the game, and it is never good to abandon something you love.
I dislike it. Then again I disliked planeswalkers as well and still do. Will I quit? Probably not, and I'll still play with the cards if they are good because I want to win.
But yes, very annoying.
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Aktuba, I see where you are coming from, and I do not blame you for frustration. I myself, am a newbie. Not that I do not know how to play the game, I have come to learn how to play the game very well from when I started October of 2010. Being a newbie, this is the first drastic change I am expieriencing in card design and how you play the game of magic.
Another thing I understand is that you are a veteran, and that when you have been around something for so long, you hate to see it change. For me, the only thing I can relate with drastic change is college, where I have just started my freshman year at my university and I am not liking it at first because it is such a drastic change. But I am sure that you know that this discomfort will not last forever for me, since if you have been playing Magic since 1994 you have probably been in college already. I also know that this discomfort will dissapear in a little while.
What I'm trying to get at is give the flip cards a chance. They may be terrible, or the may be great, or they may be medicore. We don't know yet, and we will never know if we just shun them away before we can get a chance to hold them in our hands.
I, a complete stranger to you, am asking you to not quit just because of a new type of card. If you have been playing since the start, then you obviously have some sort of love for the game, and it is never good to abandon something you love.
I've learned not to quit anymore - First time I quit I sold 20 dual lands for $100, and a tolarian academy for 7. Second time I quit was also an epic fail... It's just frustrating... And there will be kids who get into those DFC's... But man... the CARD BACKS!!!! The old 52 card playing card deck with MTG backs was mind blowing enough for me... this is just hurtful...
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I've been playing since Mirrodin, which isn't forever, but longer than most I know. I like the DFC's they're interesting to me, both mechanically and visually. I proxied (sorry Aktuba) out werewolves and they were a blast to play.
This is all coming from a Spike/Vorthos (yes, we do in fact exist) so as long as the cards either are good for standard and/or are fun flavorfully, I'm ok with it.
BTW what is everyone else's player profiles? I'm interested to know the demographics of the ones who don't like DFCs.
Honestly, it did take me as a shock when they revealed the DFC's, i've been playing on and off around the same amount of time, and I have quite multiple times (I quit during Mirage and sold my collection, stupid move, then I got back in during "Masques" but officially started to buy again during apocalypse. Quite briefly during Betrayers, I had my cards stolen then I decided to return to the game at RAV. And I really wasn't playing due to lack of interest in my gaming group between morningtide-rise...though I was still buying cards and making decks at the time).
Honestly this isn't the change I hated the most. The change I still am having trouble getting used to is the immense power creep from when I started. I remember using leviathan to kill an opponent and him quitting before I could even attack. But that isn't even the biggest thing that bothered me. The one that bothered me the most was actually....ok, that was what was bothering me the most....the format had gotten way to fast. And as I said, that is why ZEN is actually my least favorite block. I mean, I got used to rarity symbols (I actually prefer them now), and the new faces, I for a while there preferred not to use the vast amount of pre 8th that I had collected just to keep my deck uniform (not anymore though). That and block rotation kind of still is meh to me. But with the DFC, I am looking at how they might actually be fun and I look forward to trying them. Though as said before, if they are a mistake, I doubt that WOTC will return to them.
I don't really like the look of the DFCs, but I'm reserving judgment on them till I've played with the set - who knows, they might be really fun right?
I've been playing since Mirrodin, which isn't forever, but longer than most I know. I like the DFC's they're interesting to me, both mechanically and visually. I proxied (sorry Aktuba) out werewolves and they were a blast to play.
This is all coming from a Spike/Vorthos (yes, we do in fact exist) so as long as the cards either are good for standard and/or are fun flavorfully, I'm ok with it.
BTW what is everyone else's player profiles? I'm interested to know the demographics of the ones who don't like DFCs.
I consider myself to be a spike/vorthos, emphasis on the vorthos- but I can't deny my timmy side either...
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I started playing MTG when Mirage came out in 1996 so I'm a little bit behind you but I was one of those in the Affinity exodus from Magic. I have returned semi-recently right after Zendikar came out. I get what you're saying about the lack of backs being a turn-off but I got to say I prefer these to the confusion with Kami Flip cards or Coldsnap with Snow Mana or Future Sight or whatever set that had like 30 different abilities sprinkled through the set.
Planeswalkers have changed the way the game is played. These DFCs are just creatures. So eh I'm okay with them.
i dont like DFC and will prolly avoid using them but if someone else does thats fine with me i just know every time i draw that checklist card (i dont use sleeves) the complete lack of art, rules text, and flavor will just kill the mood of a fun game of magic for me.
so far i have'nt seen any DFC that really make me wanna play with them so it should be easy for me to avoid
They really bothered me at first, mostly because it seemed childish to me (I know, interesting choice of words). But the more I think about it, the more indifferent I become.
In terms of the logistics of it, its little different than keeping a sideboard and tokens handy.
Flavor wise its a pretty slick concept with the Werewolves, so I appreciate that. I also credit WOTC for doing something bold and stretching the bounds of the game again, which is necessary for the game to continue its evolution. I expect it will be goofy and kludgey and not work, and that's ok. But who knows, maybe when I try them out they turn out to be fun.
I, for one, do not really care about whatever they (R&D, WotC) think and make to develop/enhance/risk, to improve/degrade the game. I support every decision they make, 'killing' the cardback will not affect me, aside from looking for decent sleeves for them. I am not pro gamer, especially in the game of Magic. But i enjoy playing this game, and this new unique 'ability' in a card will not affect my joy/frustration in the game.
I have been playing since 2002, and probably will never quit playing.
I do think the DFCs are are stupid idea, and an annoyance, but the more I think about them, the cooler they get. And I understand why they went that way with them, but I feel like they could have approached it a different way and it would have been fine.
Will I play with them? Garruk, yes (I think hes incredible) but probably not any or the other cards (maybe the hatchling, simply because of its interaction with proliferate, but thats it).
BTW, I'm a Jhonny/Vorthos... that tries desperately to be a Spike, lol.
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Wizards made big mistakes in the past, and we keep coming back. Mirrodin 1 had a lot of things in it that wizards regrets making. Jace costing 4 and not 5 was also a big mistake. But I really like the transform cards. It may not be an extremely original idea, but it looks better than the kamigawa flip cards, it works with the flavor of werewolves, and it's fun to pick up a physical card and turn it over, making it into something else. it almost reminds me of the tactile experience you get with chaos orb and falling star, but not as destructive as chaos confetti.
And remember, when the 20 transform cards come out, you have to use them in your deck. Nobody's saying you can't use them, it's mandatory.
I must tell you guys, I appreciate the respectful and mature tone everyone is taking in here. Well played, and a nice change of pace for the internet.
At first, even though I was really excited by the flavor of the DFCs, I was kind of hesitant about how it would feel to play with them. I always use opaque sleeves, and I hate the feel of shuffling without them, but I thought it would get a little tedious to be taking the card out of the sleeve over and over in a game. But after thinking about it, I'll buy a few packs of clear Ultra Pro sleeves and keep my DFCs in those. I'll use the checklist cards, because after all they are just a tool like anything else in this game. The immense amount of wonderful flavor we've seen in this set so far seems worth it to me to know that I'll be doing no more work during a game than I normally do; reaching into my card box and pulling out DFCs where I would normally be pulling out tokens to throw into play.
As someone who has taught dozens of people how to play Magic over the years (playing since '95), I can say that these shouldn't be very hard to teach to new players. Everyone I've shown DFCs to has understood immediately how they worked, thanks in part to the clever little "Transform" button in the Wizards previews. The people who have the questions are always the established players, and they are almost always rules questions regarding if it's a new card, does it keep counters/enchantments, etc. New (or newer) players haven't run into those types of situations enough to think to ask about them I assume, but that makes it very easy for them to understand how it happens in the game. In case you're curious, the non-players in this little impromptu experiment are people that I showed the cards because of flavor.
As a person who has always loved the horror genre with a passion, I am excited to use these cards and see the world they helped build. If it's just the principle of the matter that's making you want to quit, I suppose there is nothing to argue for or against; almost any change you see as personally jarring you can find grounds to quit over. Personally, I like to keep a positive outlook on these things. I have a little trouble with the draft concept, but I'm certainly willing to give it a try and I won't be quitting any time soon over it. For those interested, I'm normally a Spike/Johnny, but this set has me searching every card for every little nuance of flavor I can find... so I guess I'm a Spike/Vorthos/Johnny for now
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Innistrad, however, has broken a major tenet of the game- the card backs. As ugly as the old deckmaster card backs have been for the last 18 years, We've grown accustomed to them. There's been talk of a 6th color, and Barry's land, but I'd welcome those two ideas long before I would welcome DFC's. I know change is an important part of keeping any game alive, but I simply see this as being too frustrating and annoying to be ok.
I know I'm not the first to post on this, so mods- let me be clear. The point of this thread is to find out what others think with regards to the following- will you quit magic over this? Will you shy away from playing people who use DFC's? (which I will probably do) Or will you embrace the new, and roll with the punches?
This shakes me at my core, and has made me take a step back from magic.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=18092
Also, I just think they'll be plain fun. My only concern isthe same as when they made Flip Cards: This just made the game THAT much harder to teach to new people...
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
Wizards should leverage the opportunity, and make full-size split cards, and creatures that can be played on either side; but none of these are particularly good, yet alone exciting, developments.
That's perhaps the worst part of the two-face cards: After all the hooplah, they're not very exciting.
Instant
Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
If it doesn't work at all, it will never be back, ever (and neither will anything else that messes with the card backs). Innistrad will be seen as a risk that didn't end up working. Big deal, everyone will move on after a year (two because of standard).
If it turns out to be fun, then that's better for everyone, and we'll be glad that they did it.
I refuse to say that I'll quit over something before I've even played with it, and it would take something annoying coming back to actually make me think of quitting.
It's annoying that you have to use proxies or sleeves to play with. This loosens the restrictions on what one can do with proxies and sleeves, for one, and also the ability to simply shuffle up cards and play with no proxies or sleeves. It also makes things confusing for beginners. Despite the fact that it will make up less than 10% of a set, it's still out there. I just find it annoying. One of the major things that SAVED magic was keeping the backs of the expansion cards the same, rather than changing them (see the story of Arabian Nights- the backs were originally supposed to look like the packs- pink... :cool2:)
On the simplest level- it's a new layer of complexity that is problematic. On the level of someone who has been playing for a long time, it just bugs the crap out of me that there are now cards with no real "back".
EDIT: I truly hope they're only here for a block, and I'd be crazy to hope it's only one set... But knowing Wizards and MaRo, they don't do ANYTHING once, no matter how much of an abomination it is on it's first incarnation- Buyback? Storm? They even tried to bastardize affinity, which will be biting asses in Modern before long...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=18092
Another thing I understand is that you are a veteran, and that when you have been around something for so long, you hate to see it change. For me, the only thing I can relate with drastic change is college, where I have just started my freshman year at my university and I am not liking it at first because it is such a drastic change. But I am sure that you know that this discomfort will not last forever for me, since if you have been playing Magic since 1994 you have probably been in college already. I also know that this discomfort will dissapear in a little while.
What I'm trying to get at is give the flip cards a chance. They may be terrible, or the may be great, or they may be medicore. We don't know yet, and we will never know if we just shun them away before we can get a chance to hold them in our hands.
I, a complete stranger to you, am asking you to not quit just because of a new type of card. If you have been playing since the start, then you obviously have some sort of love for the game, and it is never good to abandon something you love.
MTGS New Trade Thingy (harder to view)
*Note that both links are the same exact trade binder. One is just the old fashioned thread and the other is the new one.
But yes, very annoying.
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I've learned not to quit anymore - First time I quit I sold 20 dual lands for $100, and a tolarian academy for 7. Second time I quit was also an epic fail... It's just frustrating... And there will be kids who get into those DFC's... But man... the CARD BACKS!!!! The old 52 card playing card deck with MTG backs was mind blowing enough for me... this is just hurtful...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=18092
i intend not to.
you know arabian knights was changed at the last minute for uniformity of card backs right? sorry. proxy checklist cards don't cut it.
This is all coming from a Spike/Vorthos (yes, we do in fact exist) so as long as the cards either are good for standard and/or are fun flavorfully, I'm ok with it.
BTW what is everyone else's player profiles? I'm interested to know the demographics of the ones who don't like DFCs.
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
Honestly this isn't the change I hated the most. The change I still am having trouble getting used to is the immense power creep from when I started. I remember using leviathan to kill an opponent and him quitting before I could even attack. But that isn't even the biggest thing that bothered me. The one that bothered me the most was actually....ok, that was what was bothering me the most....the format had gotten way to fast. And as I said, that is why ZEN is actually my least favorite block. I mean, I got used to rarity symbols (I actually prefer them now), and the new faces, I for a while there preferred not to use the vast amount of pre 8th that I had collected just to keep my deck uniform (not anymore though). That and block rotation kind of still is meh to me. But with the DFC, I am looking at how they might actually be fun and I look forward to trying them. Though as said before, if they are a mistake, I doubt that WOTC will return to them.
(coming from a 100% Spike)
I consider myself to be a spike/vorthos, emphasis on the vorthos- but I can't deny my timmy side either...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=18092
Planeswalkers have changed the way the game is played. These DFCs are just creatures. So eh I'm okay with them.
so far i have'nt seen any DFC that really make me wanna play with them so it should be easy for me to avoid
(started playing around 6th ed if anyone cares)
In terms of the logistics of it, its little different than keeping a sideboard and tokens handy.
Flavor wise its a pretty slick concept with the Werewolves, so I appreciate that. I also credit WOTC for doing something bold and stretching the bounds of the game again, which is necessary for the game to continue its evolution. I expect it will be goofy and kludgey and not work, and that's ok. But who knows, maybe when I try them out they turn out to be fun.
We can get over it, eventually. Give it time.
Why not?
I do think the DFCs are are stupid idea, and an annoyance, but the more I think about them, the cooler they get. And I understand why they went that way with them, but I feel like they could have approached it a different way and it would have been fine.
Will I play with them? Garruk, yes (I think hes incredible) but probably not any or the other cards (maybe the hatchling, simply because of its interaction with proliferate, but thats it).
BTW, I'm a Jhonny/Vorthos... that tries desperately to be a Spike, lol.
About Mindslaver rulings:
And remember, when the 20 transform cards come out, you have to use them in your deck. Nobody's saying you can't use them, it's mandatory.
At first, even though I was really excited by the flavor of the DFCs, I was kind of hesitant about how it would feel to play with them. I always use opaque sleeves, and I hate the feel of shuffling without them, but I thought it would get a little tedious to be taking the card out of the sleeve over and over in a game. But after thinking about it, I'll buy a few packs of clear Ultra Pro sleeves and keep my DFCs in those. I'll use the checklist cards, because after all they are just a tool like anything else in this game. The immense amount of wonderful flavor we've seen in this set so far seems worth it to me to know that I'll be doing no more work during a game than I normally do; reaching into my card box and pulling out DFCs where I would normally be pulling out tokens to throw into play.
As someone who has taught dozens of people how to play Magic over the years (playing since '95), I can say that these shouldn't be very hard to teach to new players. Everyone I've shown DFCs to has understood immediately how they worked, thanks in part to the clever little "Transform" button in the Wizards previews. The people who have the questions are always the established players, and they are almost always rules questions regarding if it's a new card, does it keep counters/enchantments, etc. New (or newer) players haven't run into those types of situations enough to think to ask about them I assume, but that makes it very easy for them to understand how it happens in the game. In case you're curious, the non-players in this little impromptu experiment are people that I showed the cards because of flavor.
As a person who has always loved the horror genre with a passion, I am excited to use these cards and see the world they helped build. If it's just the principle of the matter that's making you want to quit, I suppose there is nothing to argue for or against; almost any change you see as personally jarring you can find grounds to quit over. Personally, I like to keep a positive outlook on these things. I have a little trouble with the draft concept, but I'm certainly willing to give it a try and I won't be quitting any time soon over it. For those interested, I'm normally a Spike/Johnny, but this set has me searching every card for every little nuance of flavor I can find... so I guess I'm a Spike/Vorthos/Johnny for now