oh, that's true, yeah- Just now read my copy of Sarkhan. I should really go back and read my cards Well, I guess, then, my fun will have to stay with non-shroud/hexproof creatures.
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The major difference, as previously pointed out is the keyword Target. its incredibly specific. no time during the sun Titan arrest recursive even bring the word Target into the matter, therefore you may slap your arrest onto a Hexproof or Shroud creature.
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Well, in all fairness, Arrest never says target in the first place. It just seems kind of whacky to me, but then again, that's probably because I hate that nearly none of the rules in M:TG mean anything, cause most have pretty simple workarounds
But now, this makes me want to play WB and put Yoke of the Damned on different creatures Does this also make Lost Auramancers work for this, too?
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Well, in all fairness, Arrest never says target in the first place.
Yes but, as said before as well, when an enchantment is on the stack, it has to target something Arrest is never on the stack with the sun titan recursion. Just his etb or attack trigger. When that resolves, poof, arrest.
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uh Kix you still have to have a legal target for arrest brosif. if you have a sun titan vs a hexproof creature( which wouldnt happen anyway-even thrun sucks) your titans going to jail.
Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
Yes but, as said before as well, when an enchantment is on the stack, it has to target something Arrest is never on the stack with the sun titan recursion. Just his etb or attack trigger. When that resolves, poof, arrest.
An aura entering the battlefield doesn't target. Playing an aura, however, does require a legal target. Sun titan can cause auras to be placed on shroud and hexproof creatures.
*shrug* I'm going to look at it this way: I don't think this should work, at all, but I'm not a judge or anything, so I see no point in arguing.
I stand by the points made before: Answers to Hexproof are the same as answers to Shroud.
You're right about the latter part, for sure. The only real difference is that they can use auras with hexproof to make a faster clock.
Incidentally, I'll bet thats a lot of why they like hexproof over shroud - playable hexproof creatures make it a lot easier to make playable auras. It's extremely difficult to 2-for-1 someone casting an aura on a hexproof creature; there are few instants that can kill hexproof creatures, and many of them are pretty restrictive. Most of the answers are sweepers, in which case you've no more been 2-for-1ed for playing an aura than you would have been for playing another creature.
There are still other problems with auras, of course (like having to draw and play a hexproof creature, and being terrible topdecks), but there are a lot fewer in this case.
uh Kix you still have to have a legal target for arrest brosif. if you have a sun titan vs a hexproof creature( which wouldnt happen anyway-even thrun sucks) your titans going to jail.
Hey you're right, when arrest is targeting you have to choose a legal target. But arrest doesnt Target when coming back from sun titans etb or attack trigger, it just simply comes into play. Allowing you to arrest something you couldn't went casting it, a la Gladecover Scout.
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Unfortunately you can't really compare like that, Noir. to my knowledge there isn't a way to recur a spell like that. anytime you'll be casting lightning bolt from your graveyard, you'll be doing just that: casting it. it will go on the stack and you will have to Target something. you aren't casting an arrest from the graveyard VIA sun Titan.
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Hey, I didn't say it makes sense. Those are just the rules as I know them, and I've explained them the best I could. You might try a rules guru instead for the exactness.
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It's not a problem, for all I know I could have simply learned wrong, which I'm hoping isn't the situation, because that would mean I've taught others wrong
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Well, crap happens A friend of mine? Had been taught that Trample worked even when you block. He actually flat-out told me I was wrong, and everyone just kinda stared at him like "o_o"
He and I had just met, and I'm the Green mage in my part of town XD; We pulled out a copy of a core-set card with Trample(Honestly, can't remember what it was. I think possibly Garruk's Companion?) and had to show him.
I could just as easily be wrong, and probably am. I was one of the guys who also thought it was impossible to tap your creatures for abilities on their first turn into place without haste, and was wrong. Hooray, voice of the woods *sarcasm*
EDIT:
Looks like I was wrong this time The rule still confuses the heck outta me, but...if a rules guru says "this is how it works" That's how it works, right? ^^;
Something I would like to point out (even though it's been resolved already) is that hexproof says "this permanent can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control" and an arrest returning from the graveyard is neither a spell nor an ability, so:
A) Only spells and abilities target. Therefore it can't target, since it's neither.
B) Even if it did target, it would have no interaction with hexproof, since it's neither.
400.4. Cards with certain card types can’t enter certain zones.
400.4a If an instant or sorcery card would enter the battlefield, it remains in its previous zone.
Ok you get rid of hexproof creatures by global effects like engineered plagues and infest type effects. You can also with wrath effects too. Hexproof is not hard to get rid of
For everyone that's saying hexproof is "easy to get rid of" get real. That's the point of hexproof; it's harder to get rid of. Granted, the sweepers everyone mentioned work wonders, but honestly, in T2, hexproof is a house when combined with things like sun titan and swords. I realize thrun isn't so scary to legacy players, but that's because he sucks outside of standard. There are answers to every card, but do I run 3 black sun zenith main just to deal with things like thrun? No, so having a plan besides that isn't such a horrible thing to devote time to.
The potential problem with hexproof is the same as with Caw-Blade: the fact that a card is answerable means pretty much nothing to how good it is.
Phyrexian Obliterator is still an awesome card despite dying to pretty much everything. The reason it's not played in competitive standard is NOT because it is easily answered, it's because it doesn't do enough for you. A titan, once resolved, will at least get you one activation of its triggered ability. If it dies after that, well, you just cast an overpriced Arc Lightning or something. You still did something.
Similarly, a Stoneforge Mystic dies to basically everything. A Batterskull, even if its tinkered out on turn 3, still dies to a lot of different, variable, versatile spells in the current metagame. They were still absolutely amazing cards, because no sane player puts all their eggs in one basket. They don't keep hands of 6 lands, Stoneforge and then cry once it's answered. They run permission to protect their Mystics. They run card advantage like Hawks to hold swords and beat in Mystic's place. They run versatile win conditions like Sun Titan, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Gideon Jura, along with Celestial Colonnade.
How is hexproof any different?
Stoneforge had inherent card advantage by tutoring up an equipment. It had tempo advantage by cheating that equipment into play. No hexproof creature has any of those things. What they have is something called virtual card advantage.
Every targeted removal spell in your opponents deck (most decks run 4+ maindeck creature removal) is worthless against your hexproof threat. With a Spirit Mantle, this virtual card advantage increases, because now any substantial blocking creature is similarly worthless (those creatures can swing back, of course, but chances are they are more easily answered than a hexproof unblockable.) Throw in some bomby enhancement spell like Angelic Destiny, a Sword, or something and suddenly whole swarms of cards you might draw are now worthless, simply because you'll be dead before they impact the game.
Those arguing that there are answers for hexproof are right. But those arguing that those answers are a) always played and available, b) unanswerable themselves, or c) somehow make hexproof a bad ability because of their existence are mistaken. Aggro-control has always been a valid archetype. Having a hard-to-answer creature, with creature pumps like Swords/Destiny, ways to make it evasive like Spirit Mantle, ALONG WITH a removal and light permission suite and alternate win conditions is a valid archetype. Check out the Mono-Blue Illusions decks that have top 8'd recently. The same principle applies: Play guys, make those guys larger/difficult to remove/evasive, apply pressure, counter attempts by the opponent to turn the game around: game over.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
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But now, this makes me want to play WB and put Yoke of the Damned on different creatures Does this also make Lost Auramancers work for this, too?
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Yes but, as said before as well, when an enchantment is on the stack, it has to target something Arrest is never on the stack with the sun titan recursion. Just his etb or attack trigger. When that resolves, poof, arrest.
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You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
I stand by the points made before: Answers to Hexproof are the same as answers to Shroud.
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An aura entering the battlefield doesn't target. Playing an aura, however, does require a legal target. Sun titan can cause auras to be placed on shroud and hexproof creatures.
You're right about the latter part, for sure. The only real difference is that they can use auras with hexproof to make a faster clock.
Incidentally, I'll bet thats a lot of why they like hexproof over shroud - playable hexproof creatures make it a lot easier to make playable auras. It's extremely difficult to 2-for-1 someone casting an aura on a hexproof creature; there are few instants that can kill hexproof creatures, and many of them are pretty restrictive. Most of the answers are sweepers, in which case you've no more been 2-for-1ed for playing an aura than you would have been for playing another creature.
There are still other problems with auras, of course (like having to draw and play a hexproof creature, and being terrible topdecks), but there are a lot fewer in this case.
Hey you're right, when arrest is targeting you have to choose a legal target. But arrest doesnt Target when coming back from sun titans etb or attack trigger, it just simply comes into play. Allowing you to arrest something you couldn't went casting it, a la Gladecover Scout.
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If I bring a Lightning Bolt back into play somehow(Don't ask how, just theorizing here) does that mean I can Lightning Bolt a Sacred Wolf?
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But, still, question remains- How is it on a creature, without targetting it? Wouldn't it just fizzle?
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He and I had just met, and I'm the Green mage in my part of town XD; We pulled out a copy of a core-set card with Trample(Honestly, can't remember what it was. I think possibly Garruk's Companion?) and had to show him.
I could just as easily be wrong, and probably am. I was one of the guys who also thought it was impossible to tap your creatures for abilities on their first turn into place without haste, and was wrong. Hooray, voice of the woods *sarcasm*
EDIT:
Looks like I was wrong this time The rule still confuses the heck outta me, but...if a rules guru says "this is how it works" That's how it works, right? ^^;
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A) Only spells and abilities target. Therefore it can't target, since it's neither.
B) Even if it did target, it would have no interaction with hexproof, since it's neither.
Also:
An example would be if you have an illusion token (from Meloku the Clouded Mirror), a clone copying it and you cast Mask of the Mimic to search out Illusion...
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"Oh, our boards are clean now? Nifty~"
Wreath of Gheists onto my Godhead of Awe
Swing~
<And, for a standard answer, wrath effects, and Whipflare or Phyrexian Rebirth>
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It's easy to get a copy of, cheap, and at 3 power. I love that card~
Hexproof isn't "easy to get rid of" it's just no harder to kill off than shroud.
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Phyrexian Obliterator is still an awesome card despite dying to pretty much everything. The reason it's not played in competitive standard is NOT because it is easily answered, it's because it doesn't do enough for you. A titan, once resolved, will at least get you one activation of its triggered ability. If it dies after that, well, you just cast an overpriced Arc Lightning or something. You still did something.
Similarly, a Stoneforge Mystic dies to basically everything. A Batterskull, even if its tinkered out on turn 3, still dies to a lot of different, variable, versatile spells in the current metagame. They were still absolutely amazing cards, because no sane player puts all their eggs in one basket. They don't keep hands of 6 lands, Stoneforge and then cry once it's answered. They run permission to protect their Mystics. They run card advantage like Hawks to hold swords and beat in Mystic's place. They run versatile win conditions like Sun Titan, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Gideon Jura, along with Celestial Colonnade.
How is hexproof any different?
Stoneforge had inherent card advantage by tutoring up an equipment. It had tempo advantage by cheating that equipment into play. No hexproof creature has any of those things. What they have is something called virtual card advantage.
Every targeted removal spell in your opponents deck (most decks run 4+ maindeck creature removal) is worthless against your hexproof threat. With a Spirit Mantle, this virtual card advantage increases, because now any substantial blocking creature is similarly worthless (those creatures can swing back, of course, but chances are they are more easily answered than a hexproof unblockable.) Throw in some bomby enhancement spell like Angelic Destiny, a Sword, or something and suddenly whole swarms of cards you might draw are now worthless, simply because you'll be dead before they impact the game.
Those arguing that there are answers for hexproof are right. But those arguing that those answers are a) always played and available, b) unanswerable themselves, or c) somehow make hexproof a bad ability because of their existence are mistaken. Aggro-control has always been a valid archetype. Having a hard-to-answer creature, with creature pumps like Swords/Destiny, ways to make it evasive like Spirit Mantle, ALONG WITH a removal and light permission suite and alternate win conditions is a valid archetype. Check out the Mono-Blue Illusions decks that have top 8'd recently. The same principle applies: Play guys, make those guys larger/difficult to remove/evasive, apply pressure, counter attempts by the opponent to turn the game around: game over.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.