I'm pretty sure MBC hasn't been viable as a decklist since darksteel. And even then I'm pretty sure back then people splashed a lot with it. I haven't seen a tier 1 deck packing corrupt or other drain spells since Torment.
I really don't get wizards: They keep making staple MBC cards that scream, "you must build me for a mono black control deck", however they rarely ever print cards that a MBC "actually" needs. It's as if their entire R&D department has never played a MBC deck. I'd trade Phyrexian Obliterator for Phyrexian Arena or Cabal Coffers any day.
As of right now in standard, MBC is missing exactly two cards to make it viable:
1- A decent card drawing engine. Why didn't they just print Phyrexian Arena in M11 or NPH? What the heck is with Dark Tutelage? Did they REALLY think Phyrexian arena was too powerful of a card? I mean, It's probably one of the most flavorful and balanced cards they've ever created. I've been praying for a functionally reprinted or fixed Necropotence ever since 5th edition rotated. Heck, would Necropotence even be an issue if it was reprinted? There's no Dark Ritual, and it's banned in Legacy.
2- Mana acceleration. This is where R&D has completely missed the point. they turned green into ramp and completely removed all black mana acceleration. Cabal Coffers is in no way broken. The new coffers that adds B for creatures in your graveyard is just garbage. I love dark Ritual. I have so many fond memories of the card. However, if I had a choice I'd definitely pick Cabal Coffers. It's perfectly balanced, can't be broken, and makes all those bomby black spells decent.
To make it GREAT (tier 1), it needs:
1- A DECENT planeswalker. What the hell wizards? you print new versions of all other walkers, print Gideon, (who is fantastic), and give black SORIN? He's complete garbage outside of EDH! I'm guessing they gave black Sorin, because they are going to make Lilian Vess really powerful in Inn
2- *maybe some decent cheap control cards. Functional reprint of one of my favorite cards: Yawgmoth's Will would make my eyes water. I loved Death cloud.
The only problem with this, is WOTC has shown on numerous occasions they are only willing to push blue and white.
I've played monblack in the current standard, timed right, it can beat valakut, as long as you have Tetonic Edge, and Cawblade does give it trouble, but the version I run runs so much removal that it can beat Cawblade. But yes Cawblade is definitely the bane of this deck. Or was, haha, banhammer.
BTW, I've scoured the rumor mill...what the hell is Bloodgift Demon?
I collect: Vedalken Heretic, Lorescale Coatl, Reaper King, Worldslayer, Woodwraith Corrupter, Lorthos, the Tidemaker. Soon to collect Conquering Manticore.
I demanded a Manticore, and Wizards delivered. I now demand a Chimaera. The REAL one, not, Chimeric items. I also demand a new Gorgon. And more Manticores please.
So apparently grave titan has the relentless rats ability? You can only run 4, not to mention he is a six drop. I am by no means saying he is bad, but you do have to run some other creatures. Also they curve fairly nice together. I'm so tired of people saying no other creatures are worth runing vs the titans. Apparantly we know Chapin's next song. Titans, better then all.
We're talking MBC here, with 0 ramp? It simply can't afford a topheavy curve. Maybe 4x titans and 2x demons, but thats already pushing it. But its sad and true. I hate the titans, but grave titan *indeed* obsoletes many of the finishers black would otherwise love to run. If they hadn't been reprinted, standard would be far more interesting.
lol at ppl who think black can't be played because of Crusader and Feast and Famine. What a joke. That's why you have cards like Geth's Verdict, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Black Sun's Zenith, Tumble Magnet, and Consuming Vapors. I played MBC in type 2 for over a year and my problems were Valakut and Mind Sculptor, not some pro-black dudes.
lol at ppl who think black can't be played because of Crusader and Feast and Famine. What a joke. That's why you have cards like Geth's Verdict, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Black Sun's Zenith, Tumble Magnet, and Consuming Vapors. I played MBC in type 2 for over a year and my problems were Valakut and Mind Sculptor, not some pro-black dudes.
Only one of those cards you mentioned deals with the Sword, and you have no reliable way to find it. Any deck with Stoneforge had plenty of ways to draw into the Stoneforge or search up the Stoneforge. The Magnet won't last forever, and the deck playing Stoneforge eventually would get there by dealing with any threat you happened to play.
If you were able to beat decks with Stoneforge playing monoblack, I want to be in your metagame, because they are terrible.
On MB
You know, MB can get around many issues with red via Obliterator. The fastest MB can get him out is turn 3. (Via... Sphere of the Suns...not the best option.)
Additional options (other than previously mentioned sacrificing cards) are Ratchet Bomb and Tumble Magnet. And they can be used for other things, which isn't the worst thing in the world.
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I'm trying a deck that runs Sphere of the Suns, Everflowing Chalice, Tumble Magnet and Ratchet bomb all mainboard (dubious right?). Definitely more MBA than MBC. The real plays happen on turn 3.
Turn 3 should either mean a Lashwrithe, a Tumble Magnet (to delay), an Obliterator, or a gatekeeper/nighthawk + a Sign in Blood/Killcard.
Sometimes even a turn 4 GT. But if someone runs artifact hate, that plan is out the window.
... So really the best we can ever do in the current Standard (And it's looking to be the same for after M12) for mana-ramp early game (i.e. when it matters) is two mana ahead. Turn 4 GT.
(Unless someone can do some trickery with Pawn of Ulamog that I'm not aware of.)
New Cards
On the note of card draw... and M12... Bloodgift Demon is frankly too slow. If he were a mythic 3 drop I'd run him. 4 could even make the difference (Get him out turn three via chalices and/or Spheres)....But 5? Ugh...5 Seems to be MB's tipping point.
I guess I could see him in some MBC builds?
The Vengeful Pharaohcould spring up some interesting strategies for MB if it has the proper support cards in INN. But most likely nothing Tier 1.
Here's hoping for a CMC4 or lower Liliana in Innistrad.
(That or Cabal Coffers as mentioned before...Along with Necropotence. It wouldn't be that game breaking. Best card draw engine ever? Yes Please.)
I've been trying to put a respectable MBC build together for the last two years. Couldn't make it work without a second color. Previously, it was UB Control, though after CawBlade starting getting out of hand, it changed to BR to try and keep pace. I wasn't surprised that, after finishing the tuning, the entire meta is now going to shift in roughly 72 hours.
As far as MBC's future, it's hard to say. The tools are there for an approximation, but, as others have stated, the lack of non-Suicide Black draw and mana acceleration puts a crimp in the plans. With Duress out of M12, plus the loss of IoK, Gatekeeper, Smother, and Nighthawk with rotation, I have no idea what is in store for MBC's chances come Innistrad. If we're lucky, there are yet unspoiled tools to come in M12, but I'm not holding out hope.
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mono-black has some fun tools. I for one like going gatekeeper/nighthawk, obliterator, lilliana (who puts grave titan on top assuming I have my sixth land in hand which I always do), into grave titan. After that, Lilianna is used to fetch whatever answer is required. Survival is assured by main deck 4 go for the throats, 4 doom blades, 4 gate keepers, 4 night hawks, and 2 black sun's. Far as I can tell mono-black wins on the fact that it's cards are flat better then everyone elses. Also, four main deck sign in bloods help a bit with card advantage.
I thank you all, I created this thread this morning as a test to show anyone close to wotc R&D who monitors this site for player feedback (I'm actually assuming they do that :rolleyes:) that within roughly half a day I could have at least 3 pages full of the same posts
- MBC not viable...
- Why make Oblit and then not give us tools....
- Why cant we have a PW...
- Other colors getting good utility...
- Future of MB looks grim....
To be honest I dont think anyone's listening, but that doesnt stop me from saying something. Or rather, all of you who posted and responded to my question.
I love MBC, it's all I've ever played competitively (aside from Jund, since it cost like 5$ to build) and I've always struggled to make it work and had success at times. But I am not forcing Mono Black when it isnt there.
As others have said, the pieces are there, but all of our cards "play fair" when white and blue, and now red, and looking like green as well, get way more out of their 75 than we can possibly hope for.
You print these cards like Lash and Oblit and SiB and then expect us to what? Splash other colors? Ramp with artifacts?
You now take away Duress?
Our best CA available: Gatekeeper, hands down, is gone in 3 months and you give us nothing to replace him?
A worse Mind Sludge?
Bloodgift Demon is an INSULT! We've been calling for Arena reprint for years! And you give it to us on an UNPLAYABLE 5CMC TARGET!
The posts speak for themselves, as I have spoken for myself.
I'm very angry with this turn of events. I want something good to be in the last few unspoiled cards in m12, and Innistrad has got to have something good in it.
maybe some decent cheap control cards. Functional reprint of one of my favorite cards: Yawgmoth's Will would make my eyes water.
wow how bout nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!! i still consider Yawgmoth's Will to be one of the most powerful... if not the most powerful cards ever printed EVER. it is a degenerate card in any format with effective mana excel. ya its crap by itself but you dont play it by itself. I have always said "if you can resolve a Yawgmoth's Will and then can not win then you diserver to have your deck taken away from you." I dont think i have ever lost a game when i have played this card. i mean they tried to do a funtional reprint of in the form of Sins of the past and that did not help and just helped make the Mind's Desire deck out of control.
back on point i am really hopful that the spoiler for M12 and the up coming block will show that the MBC arcytipe still has some hope i miss my old MBC deck usingf things like Promise of Power and Consume spirit with cabal coffers (i played Extended alot before it got nurfed). i would not even mind a MBA deck to show its face again even for a little while. the things that need to happen for this become a reality though have already been stated. more than any thing else though we NEED a good source of card advantage in the form of drawing. hope this happens... infact give me a Promise of Power varient and i will be happy
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.
Phyrexian Obliterator says to play only Swamps or else. And if you're not playing Obliterator, just play a two colored deck.
If you didn't have JTMS you couldn't possibly play blue, let alone control, right? There are some people who are unable to throw away 80 - 100 dollars for a playset of Obliterators, that doesn't mean they can't play mono black.
If you didn't have JTMS you couldn't possibly play blue, let alone control, right? There are some people who are unable to throw away 80 - 100 dollars for a playset of Obliterators, that doesn't mean they can't play mono black.
I would take a UB deck with just Preordain and Mana Leak over a mono black deck without Obliterator. You get to play Flashfreezee and Spell Pierce from the sideboard and get Creeping Tar Pits to help deal with planeswalkers.
I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding that there's no reason to play mono colored decks if they aren't going to use cards that are specifically made for mono color decks. It just doesn't make sense.
I'm not very familiar with Mono-black, but I am going to suggest to you to start thinking outside of the box.
One thing I can think of for MBA is Tormented Soul in M12. I reckon that he likes Lashwrithe alot. And to compensate for the absence of defence, you can use Phyrexian Obliterator. Smack them fast and smack them hard, and for relatively cheap too.
For MBC, I'm wondering about Surgical Extraction with Distress and Despise. I keep on thinking that the best way to deal with Valakut is to Surgical Extract it. To not waste your card, I would suggest using Gitaxian Probe
It seems to me that they want to push Vampires for black in this set. For them, I was thinking of splashing Gut Shot and the like for the Bloodthirst (especially with Bloodlord of Vaasgoth), along with Bloodchief Ascension. You could even use Mindcrank in 2s to go for silly kills.
@Arcaia: Mono-Black is a state of being, not just an Archetype. If you're lucky, the Clan won't come and turn you into a sacrifice for a Phyrexian Altar. Also, when you add GProbe or Gut Shot, it stops being Mono-Black. Then It's Bx.
To me, when someone mentions Mono-Black as a deck style, I think of MBC. Aggro that happens to be mono-black is either Vampires or Infect, neither of which I am currently intersted in running. Ran Black Infect; got bored. WotC has been pushing Aggro in the colors lately, and Blue is getting the treatment in M12 with Illusions.
@gereffi: Yeah, kind of hard to finish MBC when you only have one Oblit, and can't afford to get another 2-3 without selling off a Revised Tundra. Although, thankfully (?), the price has been dropping lately.
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@gereffi: Yeah, kind of hard to finish MBC when you only have one Oblit, and can't afford to get another 2-3 without selling off a Revised Tundra. Although, thankfully (?), the price has been dropping lately.
It should be a lot easier, considering that obliterator is not a good card and is outclassed by the $12 grave titan even in MBC, whos price will drop again as its reprinted. Not to mention bloodgift is probably better anyway.
On the attack, Oblit is just a 5/5 evasion. On the defense, its a moat. On the attack, bloodgift is a 4/4 evasion. On the defense, its a 4/4. But on both of them, its pooping card advantage, which is exactly what MBC needs. Oblit only shines as a moat- and its only worth subbing in against WW or kuld-red aggro or whatever, and even then its often too slow. After all, it can only discourage an alpha strike by blocking 1 dude.
Obliterator is one of those skill testing cards in deck design. Its very shiny and flashy, but its exceedingly obvious that its *not* a powerhouse finisher like say, grave titan. Without some way to exploit it via lure/provoke/nettle, its abilities are just ignorable intimidation. The price has been dropping for a reason
Now right now a UB black running mana leaks and creeping tar pits and grave titans and jace and so on is a thousandfold better, and as people will remember they were dominating or at least fairing well the metagame a year or so ago, back before the whole caw-blade, opposed to valakut. Still is.
It should be a lot easier, considering that obliterator is not a good card and is outclassed by the $12 grave titan even in MBC, whos price will drop again as its reprinted. Not to mention bloodgift is probably better anyway.
On the attack, Oblit is just a 5/5 evasion. On the defense, its a moat. On the attack, bloodgift is a 4/4 evasion. On the defense, its a 4/4. But on both of them, its pooping card advantage, which is exactly what MBC needs. Oblit only shines as a moat- and its only worth subbing in against WW or kuld-red aggro or whatever, and even then its often too slow. After all, it can only discourage an alpha strike by blocking 1 dude.
Obliterator is one of those skill testing cards in deck design. Its very shiny and flashy, but its exceedingly obvious that its *not* a powerhouse finisher like say, grave titan. Without some way to exploit it via lure/provoke/nettle, its abilities are just ignorable intimidation. The price has been dropping for a reason
Now right now a UB black running mana leaks and creeping tar pits and grave titans and jace and so on is a thousandfold better, and as people will remember they were dominating or at least fairing well the metagame a year or so ago, back before the whole caw-blade, opposed to valakut. Still is.
have you ever actually played Obliterator? I doubt it because if you had, you'd understand just how powerful it is on the attack. I dont think I've ever blocked with an Obliterator since I bought my set, they always hit and almost always force bad decisions on the defending player's part.
Think about this: This thing is so ridiculous that they had to print a silver bullet that ANY deck could use just so it wouldnt be stupidly overpowered, Dismember in the same set.
As for Bloodgift, i'll say again, I think it's the biggest insult to mono black since Phylactery Lich, and even more so, because we (my brother and sister true believers) have been dying for a functional Arena reprint since the last 1 rotated. tutelage is meant for cheap aggro and is a lame attempt.
Bloodgift HAS the Arena ability, but its way over priced and on an easily removed 4/4 body.
I could have a Batterskull or freakin Imhotep (Vengeful Pharaoh) on turn 5 but no I'm guna drop a craptacular 4/4 that does nothing and gets blasted by Flame Slash? Are you serious?
How can you even put Obliterator in the same paragraph as Bloodfail Demon?
have you ever actually played Obliterator? I doubt it because if you had, you'd understand just how powerful it is on the attack. I dont think I've ever blocked with an Obliterator since I bought my set, they always hit and almost always force bad decisions on the defending player's part.
Think about this: This thing is so ridiculous that they had to print a silver bullet that ANY deck could use just so it wouldnt be stupidly overpowered, Dismember in the same set.
As for Bloodgift, i'll say again, I think it's the biggest insult to mono black since Phylactery Lich, and even more so, because we (my brother and sister true believers) have been dying for a functional Arena reprint since the last 1 rotated. tutelage is meant for cheap aggro and is a lame attempt.
Bloodgift HAS the Arena ability, but its way over priced and on an easily removed 4/4 body.
I could have a Batterskull or freakin Imhotep (Vengeful Pharaoh) on turn 5 but no I'm guna drop a craptacular 4/4 that does nothing and gets blasted by Flame Slash? Are you serious?
How can you even put Obliterator in the same paragraph as Bloodfail Demon?
I think bloodgift is fine, a 4/4 body is not small at all. He is also superb with a lash, and flame slash sees no play. With spellskite, obliterator, blood gift and grave titam, you have a good amount of must deal with threats and a card who protects them. Combine that with early hand disruption and removsl, you have a fine deck.
For people who say having a high curve without mana excel is impossible, you are confusing tempo with control. You should try things out before discrediting them. As I said I have had good success with my current mbc in testing and will hopefuly have the same results in the comming post ban fnms and ptqs.
have you ever actually played Obliterator? I doubt it because if you had, you'd understand just how powerful it is on the attack. I dont think I've ever blocked with an Obliterator since I bought my set, they always hit and almost always force bad decisions on the defending player's part.
Which makes it a 5/5 unblockable. Except for the alpha strike.
Which not impressive for a BBBB drop in this meta.
Black already has access to a 4 drop 6/6 evasion, too.
But its a constructed metagame thats dominated by card advantage and control right now, or those decks that can sweep in fast enough to get past CA/control. Even a lone tumble magnet basically assures a win against phyrexian obliterator
Think about this: This thing is so ridiculous that they had to print a silver bullet that ANY deck could use just so it wouldnt be stupidly overpowered, Dismember in the same set.
I'm sorry, I like MBC far more than caw blade or valakut or whatever, but dismember isn't the reason obliterator isn't seeing play. Thats just a return to reality. It doesn't see play because any deck that would want to run it (of which there are few, since UB can hardly pull 4 of the same color), would rather just run grave titan anyway- grave which gets around tumble magnet, GFTT, other removal, hell other titans and so on
As for Bloodgift, i'll say again, I think it's the biggest insult to mono black since Phylactery Lich, and even more so, because we (my brother and sister true believers) have been dying for a functional Arena reprint since the last 1 rotated. tutelage is meant for cheap aggro and is a lame attempt.
Bloodgift HAS the Arena ability, but its way over priced and on an easily removed 4/4 body.
Bloodgift won't be played since he treads on grave titans niche, but if the titans didn't exist he'd probably be borderline decent. Yeah, she should be a weaker 4-drop, not a 5 drop. But he advances MBC's control element far more than any other finisher they have available.
I could have a Batterskull or freakin Imhotep (Vengeful Pharaoh) on turn 5 but no I'm guna drop a craptacular 4/4 that does nothing and gets blasted by Flame Slash? Are you serious?
How can you even put Obliterator in the same paragraph as Bloodfail Demon?
Because unfortunately, bloodfail demon has more constructed potential than the Overprycexia Obliterator. Heck, even in MBC the batterskull you say is better than obliterator- hes a bigger swing on attack *and* blocks, meaning he hoses aggro just as much, is far easier to cast, recurs himself, protects himself, and hops on your other beaters backs.
I try to just be realistic and judge the cards on their own merits, and neither obliterator or bloodfail are any bit useful in this meta. So trying to compare them is like trying to figure out whether gray ogre or squire is a better card. Maybe with INN they'll start being useful, and I do keep my fingers crossed since thats far more interesting than another year of titans (primeval at least will be useless). But it would take some real bizarre interaction to trump grave titan whos going to be in the same rotation of standard.
there's a lot of good black stuff but it's a matter of finding the right combination of spells. i mean, mana slots 4 to 7 have so much to choose from. but i think solemn simulacrum will really help, especially with sphere of the suns, everflowing chalice, and/or leaden myr
The one thing that mono black needs in order to be viable is a card draw engine, Phyrexian Arena being the fairest viable engine(Dark Tutelage is good but only works in rush, not in midrange or control).
And that's not even including the colourless options like Ratchet Bomb(giving a good way to deal with creatures with protection and problem enchantments), Tectonic Edge to deal with problem lands, Everflowing Chalice and Sphere of the Suns provide acceleration and the m12 reprint of Solemn Simulacrum giving both ramp and card advantage.
I'll say it again the only thing black wants/needs to be viable as a mono colour deck is a card advantage engine of Phyrexian Arena level(or better) almost everything else is already there.
EDIT:Bloodgift Demon if it is in M12(it could still be in Innistrad) is no Arena, a 4/4 for 5 is both too slow and too vulnerable to work as a viable card advantage engine.
the pharaoh will be good with zombie infestation and (while it's still legal) bloodghast.
additionally, hedron crab and jace's archivist protect you from getting library-locked by the pharaoh, and also get your graveyard-centric creatures where they need to be, as well as re-filling your hand. it's win-win.
The one thing that mono black needs in order to be viable is a card draw engine, Phyrexian Arena being the fairest viable engine(Dark Tutelage is good but only works in rush, not in midrange or control).
Pretty much why the deck is left with trying to eke out an existence at FNM. Which is a shame- I've been trying to make it work since Zendikar and I saw Mind Sludge was reprinted. In this standard, going MBC infect seems to be the way- Skittles, Crusader, Lashwrithe, Inkmoth Nexus, BSZ, Viscera Seer/Bloodghast engine backed by SiB.
EDIT:Bloodgift Demon if it is in M12(it could still be in Innistrad) is no Arena, a 4/4 for 5 is both too slow and too vulnerable to work as a viable card advantage engine.
I really don't get wizards: They keep making staple MBC cards that scream, "you must build me for a mono black control deck", however they rarely ever print cards that a MBC "actually" needs. It's as if their entire R&D department has never played a MBC deck. I'd trade Phyrexian Obliterator for Phyrexian Arena or Cabal Coffers any day.
As of right now in standard, MBC is missing exactly two cards to make it viable:
1- A decent card drawing engine. Why didn't they just print Phyrexian Arena in M11 or NPH? What the heck is with Dark Tutelage? Did they REALLY think Phyrexian arena was too powerful of a card? I mean, It's probably one of the most flavorful and balanced cards they've ever created. I've been praying for a functionally reprinted or fixed Necropotence ever since 5th edition rotated. Heck, would Necropotence even be an issue if it was reprinted? There's no Dark Ritual, and it's banned in Legacy.
2- Mana acceleration. This is where R&D has completely missed the point. they turned green into ramp and completely removed all black mana acceleration. Cabal Coffers is in no way broken. The new coffers that adds B for creatures in your graveyard is just garbage. I love dark Ritual. I have so many fond memories of the card. However, if I had a choice I'd definitely pick Cabal Coffers. It's perfectly balanced, can't be broken, and makes all those bomby black spells decent.
To make it GREAT (tier 1), it needs:
1- A DECENT planeswalker. What the hell wizards? you print new versions of all other walkers, print Gideon, (who is fantastic), and give black SORIN? He's complete garbage outside of EDH! I'm guessing they gave black Sorin, because they are going to make Lilian Vess really powerful in Inn
2- *maybe some decent cheap control cards. Functional reprint of one of my favorite cards: Yawgmoth's Will would make my eyes water. I loved Death cloud.
The only problem with this, is WOTC has shown on numerous occasions they are only willing to push blue and white.
BTW, I've scoured the rumor mill...what the hell is Bloodgift Demon?
I collect: Vedalken Heretic, Lorescale Coatl, Reaper King, Worldslayer, Woodwraith Corrupter, Lorthos, the Tidemaker. Soon to collect Conquering Manticore.
I demanded a Manticore, and Wizards delivered. I now demand a Chimaera. The REAL one, not, Chimeric items. I also demand a new Gorgon. And more Manticores please.
We're talking MBC here, with 0 ramp? It simply can't afford a topheavy curve. Maybe 4x titans and 2x demons, but thats already pushing it. But its sad and true. I hate the titans, but grave titan *indeed* obsoletes many of the finishers black would otherwise love to run. If they hadn't been reprinted, standard would be far more interesting.
Only one of those cards you mentioned deals with the Sword, and you have no reliable way to find it. Any deck with Stoneforge had plenty of ways to draw into the Stoneforge or search up the Stoneforge. The Magnet won't last forever, and the deck playing Stoneforge eventually would get there by dealing with any threat you happened to play.
If you were able to beat decks with Stoneforge playing monoblack, I want to be in your metagame, because they are terrible.
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You know, MB can get around many issues with red via Obliterator. The fastest MB can get him out is turn 3. (Via... Sphere of the Suns...not the best option.)
SoFaF poses a large problem. As does Mirran.
Additional options (other than previously mentioned sacrificing cards) are Ratchet Bomb and Tumble Magnet. And they can be used for other things, which isn't the worst thing in the world.
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I'm trying a deck that runs Sphere of the Suns, Everflowing Chalice, Tumble Magnet and Ratchet bomb all mainboard (dubious right?). Definitely more MBA than MBC. The real plays happen on turn 3.
Turn 3 should either mean a Lashwrithe, a Tumble Magnet (to delay), an Obliterator, or a gatekeeper/nighthawk + a Sign in Blood/Killcard.
Sometimes even a turn 4 GT. But if someone runs artifact hate, that plan is out the window.
... So really the best we can ever do in the current Standard (And it's looking to be the same for after M12) for mana-ramp early game (i.e. when it matters) is two mana ahead. Turn 4 GT.
(Unless someone can do some trickery with Pawn of Ulamog that I'm not aware of.)
New Cards
On the note of card draw... and M12... Bloodgift Demon is frankly too slow. If he were a mythic 3 drop I'd run him. 4 could even make the difference (Get him out turn three via chalices and/or Spheres)....But 5? Ugh...5 Seems to be MB's tipping point.
I guess I could see him in some MBC builds?
The Vengeful Pharaoh could spring up some interesting strategies for MB if it has the proper support cards in INN. But most likely nothing Tier 1.
Here's hoping for a CMC4 or lower Liliana in Innistrad.
(That or Cabal Coffers as mentioned before...Along with Necropotence. It wouldn't be that game breaking. Best card draw engine ever? Yes Please.)
As far as MBC's future, it's hard to say. The tools are there for an approximation, but, as others have stated, the lack of non-Suicide Black draw and mana acceleration puts a crimp in the plans. With Duress out of M12, plus the loss of IoK, Gatekeeper, Smother, and Nighthawk with rotation, I have no idea what is in store for MBC's chances come Innistrad. If we're lucky, there are yet unspoiled tools to come in M12, but I'm not holding out hope.
- MBC not viable...
- Why make Oblit and then not give us tools....
- Why cant we have a PW...
- Other colors getting good utility...
- Future of MB looks grim....
To be honest I dont think anyone's listening, but that doesnt stop me from saying something. Or rather, all of you who posted and responded to my question.
I love MBC, it's all I've ever played competitively (aside from Jund, since it cost like 5$ to build) and I've always struggled to make it work and had success at times. But I am not forcing Mono Black when it isnt there.
As others have said, the pieces are there, but all of our cards "play fair" when white and blue, and now red, and looking like green as well, get way more out of their 75 than we can possibly hope for.
You print these cards like Lash and Oblit and SiB and then expect us to what? Splash other colors? Ramp with artifacts?
You now take away Duress?
Our best CA available: Gatekeeper, hands down, is gone in 3 months and you give us nothing to replace him?
A worse Mind Sludge?
Bloodgift Demon is an INSULT! We've been calling for Arena reprint for years! And you give it to us on an UNPLAYABLE 5CMC TARGET!
The posts speak for themselves, as I have spoken for myself.
I'm very angry with this turn of events. I want something good to be in the last few unspoiled cards in m12, and Innistrad has got to have something good in it.
Give us SOMETHING.
wow how bout nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!! i still consider Yawgmoth's Will to be one of the most powerful... if not the most powerful cards ever printed EVER. it is a degenerate card in any format with effective mana excel. ya its crap by itself but you dont play it by itself. I have always said "if you can resolve a Yawgmoth's Will and then can not win then you diserver to have your deck taken away from you." I dont think i have ever lost a game when i have played this card. i mean they tried to do a funtional reprint of in the form of Sins of the past and that did not help and just helped make the Mind's Desire deck out of control.
back on point i am really hopful that the spoiler for M12 and the up coming block will show that the MBC arcytipe still has some hope i miss my old MBC deck usingf things like Promise of Power and Consume spirit with cabal coffers (i played Extended alot before it got nurfed). i would not even mind a MBA deck to show its face again even for a little while. the things that need to happen for this become a reality though have already been stated. more than any thing else though we NEED a good source of card advantage in the form of drawing. hope this happens... infact give me a Promise of Power varient and i will be happy
can someone tell me what SiB is?
I'm sure it'll be quite obvious once I see it.
Sign in Blood
ty
If you didn't have JTMS you couldn't possibly play blue, let alone control, right? There are some people who are unable to throw away 80 - 100 dollars for a playset of Obliterators, that doesn't mean they can't play mono black.
I would take a UB deck with just Preordain and Mana Leak over a mono black deck without Obliterator. You get to play Flashfreezee and Spell Pierce from the sideboard and get Creeping Tar Pits to help deal with planeswalkers.
I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding that there's no reason to play mono colored decks if they aren't going to use cards that are specifically made for mono color decks. It just doesn't make sense.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
@Arcaia: Mono-Black is a state of being, not just an Archetype. If you're lucky, the Clan won't come and turn you into a sacrifice for a Phyrexian Altar. Also, when you add GProbe or Gut Shot, it stops being Mono-Black. Then It's Bx.
To me, when someone mentions Mono-Black as a deck style, I think of MBC. Aggro that happens to be mono-black is either Vampires or Infect, neither of which I am currently intersted in running. Ran Black Infect; got bored. WotC has been pushing Aggro in the colors lately, and Blue is getting the treatment in M12 with Illusions.
@gereffi: Yeah, kind of hard to finish MBC when you only have one Oblit, and can't afford to get another 2-3 without selling off a Revised Tundra. Although, thankfully (?), the price has been dropping lately.
It should be a lot easier, considering that obliterator is not a good card and is outclassed by the $12 grave titan even in MBC, whos price will drop again as its reprinted. Not to mention bloodgift is probably better anyway.
On the attack, Oblit is just a 5/5 evasion. On the defense, its a moat. On the attack, bloodgift is a 4/4 evasion. On the defense, its a 4/4. But on both of them, its pooping card advantage, which is exactly what MBC needs. Oblit only shines as a moat- and its only worth subbing in against WW or kuld-red aggro or whatever, and even then its often too slow. After all, it can only discourage an alpha strike by blocking 1 dude.
Obliterator is one of those skill testing cards in deck design. Its very shiny and flashy, but its exceedingly obvious that its *not* a powerhouse finisher like say, grave titan. Without some way to exploit it via lure/provoke/nettle, its abilities are just ignorable intimidation. The price has been dropping for a reason
Now right now a UB black running mana leaks and creeping tar pits and grave titans and jace and so on is a thousandfold better, and as people will remember they were dominating or at least fairing well the metagame a year or so ago, back before the whole caw-blade, opposed to valakut. Still is.
have you ever actually played Obliterator? I doubt it because if you had, you'd understand just how powerful it is on the attack. I dont think I've ever blocked with an Obliterator since I bought my set, they always hit and almost always force bad decisions on the defending player's part.
Think about this: This thing is so ridiculous that they had to print a silver bullet that ANY deck could use just so it wouldnt be stupidly overpowered, Dismember in the same set.
As for Bloodgift, i'll say again, I think it's the biggest insult to mono black since Phylactery Lich, and even more so, because we (my brother and sister true believers) have been dying for a functional Arena reprint since the last 1 rotated. tutelage is meant for cheap aggro and is a lame attempt.
Bloodgift HAS the Arena ability, but its way over priced and on an easily removed 4/4 body.
I could have a Batterskull or freakin Imhotep (Vengeful Pharaoh) on turn 5 but no I'm guna drop a craptacular 4/4 that does nothing and gets blasted by Flame Slash? Are you serious?
How can you even put Obliterator in the same paragraph as Bloodfail Demon?
I think bloodgift is fine, a 4/4 body is not small at all. He is also superb with a lash, and flame slash sees no play. With spellskite, obliterator, blood gift and grave titam, you have a good amount of must deal with threats and a card who protects them. Combine that with early hand disruption and removsl, you have a fine deck.
For people who say having a high curve without mana excel is impossible, you are confusing tempo with control. You should try things out before discrediting them. As I said I have had good success with my current mbc in testing and will hopefuly have the same results in the comming post ban fnms and ptqs.
Which makes it a 5/5 unblockable. Except for the alpha strike.
Which not impressive for a BBBB drop in this meta.
Black already has access to a 4 drop 6/6 evasion, too.
But its a constructed metagame thats dominated by card advantage and control right now, or those decks that can sweep in fast enough to get past CA/control. Even a lone tumble magnet basically assures a win against phyrexian obliterator
I'm sorry, I like MBC far more than caw blade or valakut or whatever, but dismember isn't the reason obliterator isn't seeing play. Thats just a return to reality. It doesn't see play because any deck that would want to run it (of which there are few, since UB can hardly pull 4 of the same color), would rather just run grave titan anyway- grave which gets around tumble magnet, GFTT, other removal, hell other titans and so on
Bloodgift won't be played since he treads on grave titans niche, but if the titans didn't exist he'd probably be borderline decent. Yeah, she should be a weaker 4-drop, not a 5 drop. But he advances MBC's control element far more than any other finisher they have available.
Because unfortunately, bloodfail demon has more constructed potential than the Overprycexia Obliterator. Heck, even in MBC the batterskull you say is better than obliterator- hes a bigger swing on attack *and* blocks, meaning he hoses aggro just as much, is far easier to cast, recurs himself, protects himself, and hops on your other beaters backs.
I try to just be realistic and judge the cards on their own merits, and neither obliterator or bloodfail are any bit useful in this meta. So trying to compare them is like trying to figure out whether gray ogre or squire is a better card. Maybe with INN they'll start being useful, and I do keep my fingers crossed since thats far more interesting than another year of titans (primeval at least will be useless). But it would take some real bizarre interaction to trump grave titan whos going to be in the same rotation of standard.
Black has everything else it could want.
Discard - both targetted like Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress and Despise and mass like Mind Sludge, Bloodhusk Ritualist and the new Monomania.
Removal - both targetted like Doom Blade, Go for the Throat and Dismember, edict effects like Geth's Verdict, Gatekeeper of Malakir and Consuming Vapors, and mass like Black Sun's Zenith, Consume the Meek and Life's Finale.
Quality Creatures- both cheap like Vampire Lacerator, Bloodghast, Nantuko Shade, Vampire Hexmage, Vampire Nighthawk etc., midrange like Phyrexian Obliterator and Abyssal Persecutor, and finishers like Grave Titan, Massacre Wurm, Sheoldred, Whispering One etc.
The rest- singleton draw like Sign in Blood, graveyard control like Leyline of the Void, Ravenous Trap, combo control like Memoricide and Surgical Extraction, Sorcery finishers like Corrupt, Consume Spirit and Exsanguinate, Steal effects like Enslave and even equipment like Lashwrithe.
And that's not even including the colourless options like Ratchet Bomb(giving a good way to deal with creatures with protection and problem enchantments), Tectonic Edge to deal with problem lands, Everflowing Chalice and Sphere of the Suns provide acceleration and the m12 reprint of Solemn Simulacrum giving both ramp and card advantage.
The only area's that black is weaker than it has been historically are in tutoring(Diabolic Tutor, Liliana Vess or the new Rune-Scarred Demon don't compare to Demonic Tutor or Vampiric Tutor), Reanimation(Rise from the Grave is no Reanimate, Exhume and not even a Zombify) and land destruction(Brink of Disaster is no Sinkhole or Rain of Tears). But none of these are vital to a mono black decks success and the missing card advantage engine is.
I'll say it again the only thing black wants/needs to be viable as a mono colour deck is a card advantage engine of Phyrexian Arena level(or better) almost everything else is already there.
EDIT: Bloodgift Demon if it is in M12(it could still be in Innistrad) is no Arena, a 4/4 for 5 is both too slow and too vulnerable to work as a viable card advantage engine.
Machius proudly supports R_E's right to Rumour!
additionally, hedron crab and jace's archivist protect you from getting library-locked by the pharaoh, and also get your graveyard-centric creatures where they need to be, as well as re-filling your hand. it's win-win.
to get good value off the zombie infestation and hedron crab i think the best way is to run heavy lands and treasure hunt.
solemn simulacrum is also bouse.
Pretty much why the deck is left with trying to eke out an existence at FNM. Which is a shame- I've been trying to make it work since Zendikar and I saw Mind Sludge was reprinted. In this standard, going MBC infect seems to be the way- Skittles, Crusader, Lashwrithe, Inkmoth Nexus, BSZ, Viscera Seer/Bloodghast engine backed by SiB.
I believe it is 7 for a 6/6 flier- which is even worse for the deck. That puts it into the running with Grave Titan, Sheoldred, Whispering One, Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon and Massacre Wurm.
No.
Bloodgift Demon was in the D12 files (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=331976) and costs 3BB for a 4/4 Demon with flying and the Phyrexian Arena ability.
Machius proudly supports R_E's right to Rumour!