What bothers me is that he has to many loyal points, and gains too many, geez-
6, i'm using the +4 ability.
10 loyalty points, problem?
Thats imposible to deal with.
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What bothers me is that he has to many loyal points, and gains too many, geez-
6, i'm using the +4 ability.
10 loyalty points, problem?
Thats imposible to deal with.
Never mind creatures attacking into him, if need be, but likely you've been taking such a beating from doing nothing but ramping into him that I might as well ignore Karn altogether and swing for lethal at you.
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
I do think that's one thing that people are underestimating quite a bit. 10 LP on turn one is pretty heavy. BUT, we also have no idea what in the next few sets will come along that will keep things in check. Who knows, maybe O-Ring will be back in M12?
Again I reiterate that the ten loyalty is not a big deal, because unless he is Ish Sah'ing you really don't need to get rid of him. Gideon sits high and forces creatures to waste time on him. Let me repeat that for the fifth time - you do not attack Gideon voluntarily. You have to. Karn's ten loyalty is gained through no change to the board. You can take care of Karn at your own pace, just keep him off 14 loyalty.
Why do you guys act like you need to hit him for the full ten or else all hope is lost? Peck him for two a turn and he is slowed down a turn and wastes more time with his Liliana ability. When people realize that one Vindicate and a fog is not worth seven mana then I think we'll see the Karn wagon lighten in load
I can see arguments for Karn being both stupidly good and stupidly bad in Standard. But I sincerely hope that he will be banned in EDH. Those games are long enough as it is that the mere possibility of his ultimate going off, I can see that making people scoop if they see Karn hit the table.
Karn could be incredibly fun if you manage to get him off under the right circumstances, but I see him being a problem in EDH. I'd call it Emrakul Syndrome, being a ridiculously powerful colorless card. Sure, you have a ton of other players that can go after him. And yes, he isn't as immediately threatening as Emrakul. But the potential for ruining the fun of the game is too great, and EDH is all about fun.
He's got the Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker vibe. Any sort of deck that wants something like this already has better options in their respective colors for less mana.
He's got the Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker vibe. Any sort of deck that wants something like this already has better options in their respective colors for less mana.
Well to be fair, Nicol cost 8 in 3 colors. Karn cost 7 and is colorless. Next Karn can get rid of any permanent not only a noncreature permanent. And the ability to remove any permanent is something Black cannot do. It is well known of their problem when it comes to removing Artifacts and Enchantments. And finally Karn exiles them, something else Black has trouble doing. People might as well start comparing Karn to Sorin as much as they have been with Nicol, he's only cost 1 more then him and Sorin is all Black too. He's also easier to cast then Nicol.
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I think this forum would be strictly better if people would stop trying to force the word strictly into discussions.
I can see arguments for Karn being both stupidly good and stupidly bad in Standard. But I sincerely hope that he will be banned in EDH. Those games are long enough as it is that the mere possibility of his ultimate going off, I can see that making people scoop if they see Karn hit the table.
Karn could be incredibly fun if you manage to get him off under the right circumstances, but I see him being a problem in EDH. I'd call it Emrakul Syndrome, being a ridiculously powerful colorless card. Sure, you have a ton of other players that can go after him. And yes, he isn't as immediately threatening as Emrakul. But the potential for ruining the fun of the game is too great, and EDH is all about fun.
/end of rant
He won't be banned. I fact, I really think people won't play him for his Ultimate ability if they do. So you just spent 2 hours killing off two other dudes... and then you set off his ultimate? Suddenly those two dudes are back and you have a couple of extra cards to help you jump start... doesn't sound like something anyone really wants to do...
I actually covered it well. Restarting the game means nothing if Karn has exiled non-permanents, and for two turns there is no reason to fog into Karn either way because he is just Liliana'ing you.
If you can restart a game would otherwise lose then it means something.
He won't be banned. I fact, I really think people won't play him for his Ultimate ability if they do. So you just spent 2 hours killing off two other dudes... and then you set off his ultimate? Suddenly those two dudes are back and you have a couple of extra cards to help you jump start... doesn't sound like something anyone really wants to do...
You would probably have alot of RFG'd permantes to start out the game with, and even if you didn't if your choice is between lose and restart the game the logical choice is to restart the game.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Again I reiterate that the ten loyalty is not a big deal, because unless he is Ish Sah'ing you really don't need to get rid of him. Gideon sits high and forces creatures to waste time on him. Let me repeat that for the fifth time - you do not attack Gideon voluntarily. You have to. Karn's ten loyalty is gained through no change to the board. You can take care of Karn at your own pace, just keep him off 14 loyalty.
Why do you guys act like you need to hit him for the full ten or else all hope is lost? Peck him for two a turn and he is slowed down a turn and wastes more time with his Liliana ability. When people realize that one Vindicate and a fog is not worth seven mana then I think we'll see the Karn wagon lighten in load
Have you ever played against Jace? Just curious because many of your arguments are major fail against that PW. Here we have a PW that is less color dependant though three more net mana (again, GENERIC mana) and can EXILE permanents and not just "return a creature to your hand".
Karn is the bomb period. And is obviously under-rated on mtgsalvation forums... not sure what "hype" most of you are referring to.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
Casual players exist, hence why Doubling Season is almost $20, Mind's Eye went from a bulk rare to a $5 rare in a year and Sword of Fire and Ice is $50.
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Have you ever played against Jace? Just curious because many of your arguments are major fail against that PW. Here we have a PW that is less color dependant though three more net mana (again, GENERIC mana) and can EXILE permanents and not just "return a creature to your hand".
Karn is the bomb period. And is obviously under-rated on mtgsalvation forums... not sure what "hype" most of you are referring to.
yeah... his argument definitely seems a little off. A resolved karn is going to be an issue, and the high loyalty is going to be a big part. However i will not say that he's the bomb. traditionally we've seen that 5 mana walkers have a problem. and I'm sure you remember the last high mana costed walker. the more I look, I think Karn might have some potential, but I don't think it's going to be enough. If nothing else I see him being used with heavy proliferate to get a vindicate on a stick. which is still scary. we'll just have to see what the next set brings to go with him. as said, he looks good, but 7 mana good... not so sure.
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Nope, I am perfectly comfortable with my argument. I'm not sure why you mentioned Jace, please clarify for me, ActionJunkie. I also implore that you ask yourself the last time you saw someone cast a seven mana spell in such a fast format - one that did not make 12,000 Plant tokens.
Are you saying that Jace is similar to Karn and my arguments fail when applied to Jace? I sincerely nope this is not the case. I'd find it hard not to laugh if you are putting 4 mana Jace into a defense of why seven mana Karn is good.
Once I know what you meant by mentioning Jace I'll reply again. For the record, almost every game of Magic I've played in the last two years involved a Jace 2.0.
Karn is good, just because he can go in any deck, but will probably stick in the ones that get him out in a timely manner. He will go in some Green decks, he will go in Valakut, and will probably go into some 5C decks. I doubt it will be in the MD, but I can see players sticking it in the SB.
*Almost every deck can run a singleton of him, for absolutely no draw back, and gain not only Discard and Vindicate, but stronger versions of each. He is basically the poster boy for everything Wizards didn't want a colorless card (for under 8) to do. I know lots of Red players will try to force him in alongside Koth for kicks.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Boo freaking hoo.
I really do not know what some so called Magic players would do if they did not have a new card to whine about every set.
Karn will be a fun card to play with, he will also be restricted fairly early on NOT because he is powerful or anything but because he will make matches go on and on and on.
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Boo freaking hoo.
I really do not know what some so called Magic players would do if they did not have a new card to whine about every set.
Karn will be a fun card to play with, he will also be restricted fairly early on NOT because he is powerful or anything but because he will make matches go on and on and on.
Why do people keep saying that? It's like you are ignoring the fact that he has two other abilities, THAT ARE 100X TIMES BETTER. Get your heads out of your collective asses and use them!
He won't make matches go on and on, because his Ultimate will only be used when you are winning anyways. By the time you reach 14 Loyalty, you will have destroyed their entire board. If you haven't won by the time you reached 14 Loyalty, then of course you use it and beat your opponent to death with his own cards to get around what ever magical non-permanent ability it is that is preventing you from winning.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Why do people keep saying that? It's like you are ignoring the fact that he has two other abilities, THAT ARE 100X TIMES BETTER. Get your heads out of your collective asses and use them!
He won't make matches go on and on, because his Ultimate will only be used when you are winning anyways. By the time you reach 14 Loyalty, you will have destroyed their entire board. If you haven't won by the time you reached 14 Loyalty, then of course you use it and beat your opponent to death with his own cards to get around what ever magical non-permanent ability it is that is preventing you from winning.
It does not matter if it WILL, it matters that it CAN make matches longer.
"As long as players promise not to use the final ability all will be well!"
It does not work that way.
By the time you get to 14 loyalty you have destroyed their entire board?
You can get there in two turns by making them discard two cards.
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Boo freaking hoo.
I really do not know what some so called Magic players would do if they did not have a new card to whine about every set.
Karn will be a fun card to play with, he will also be restricted fairly early on NOT because he is powerful or anything but because he will make matches go on and on and on.
How is critically evaluating a new card at all "whining"? I don't see anyone saying they wish he were better. Most of us are happy to see weaker planeswalkers. Doesn't mean we can't put Karn through the ringer anyways.
Also, to Yamakiri, I think you are way off. Valakut would never run his card.
1. Good Decks Play With Good Cards
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
Why do people keep saying that? It's like you are ignoring the fact that he has two other abilities, THAT ARE 100X TIMES BETTER. Get your heads out of your collective asses and use them!
He won't make matches go on and on, because his Ultimate will only be used when you are winning anyways. By the time you reach 14 Loyalty, you will have destroyed their entire board. If you haven't won by the time you reached 14 Loyalty, then of course you use it and beat your opponent to death with his own cards to get around what ever magical non-permanent ability it is that is preventing you from winning.
Yeeeah...7 mana for vindicate is a lot. It's even a lot for two vindicates spread across two turns.
I like the card, but you're not going to use his ultimate in less than five turns, no chance. You're probably +4'ing, then vindicating twice, than going for it.
It does not matter if it WILL, it matters that it CAN make matches longer.
"As long as players promise not to use the final ability all will be well!"
It does not work that way.
By the time you get to 14 loyalty you have destroyed their entire board?
You can get there in two turns by making them discard two cards.
You are assuming that you are playing the game by yourself. Your opponent will actively try to destroy the Vindicate-on-a-stick, which an intelligent player would utilize to their advantage. The second ability works a lot better with the Ultimate than the second, because you get to choose what you might get, and you clear the board for when you do want to start building Loyalty. It will take a lot longer than 3 turns to activate it, if you even get to that point. Most players would be fine exiling their opponent board, then if their opponent hasn't quit yet (pride, stupidity), they can "reset" the game to end it.
At which point, if you are lucky, you will have enough Exiled permanents to kill them in two or three turns. Lots of players seem to forget that starting the game with extra crap makes it end quickly. "Jace and Primeval? ☺☺☺☺, it will end quicker if I reset now." Hell, even starting the game with something as crappy as Acidic Slime will make the game end quicker.
And if players are really worried about the Reset, they will play Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker, which completely removes the possibility of the Ultimate.
How is critically evaluating a new card at all "whining"? I don't see anyone saying they wish he were better. Most of us are happy to see weaker planeswalkers. Doesn't mean we can't put Karn through the ringer anyways.
Also, to Yamakiri, I think you are way off. Valakut would never run his card.
I think they would run one or two (in the SB), just as a consistent way to keep Leyline's or anything similar of the board.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
How is critically evaluating a new card at all "whining"? I don't see anyone saying they wish he were better. Most of us are happy to see weaker planeswalkers. Doesn't mean we can't put Karn through the ringer anyways.
Also, to Yamakiri, I think you are way off. Valakut would never run his card.
Critically evaluating is great
I was responding to the thread title "Karn the Expensive"
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\I would rank him at the Elspeth 1.0 / Ajani 2.0 level.
No way. Those are both awesome, 4 drop planeswalkers. This is a walker that might see 1of play. Two if your deck wants to see him often. But as an aggro player, I hope people run him. I'd rather see that then Gideon any day of the week.
Side question. Do you guys think people are really buying into the $50 preorder that SCG has? All I could think about when I saw that was "they have to be smoking rocks over there".
No way. Those are both awesome, 4 drop planeswalkers. This is a walker that might see 1of play. Two if your deck wants to see him often. But as an aggro player, I hope people run him. I'd rather see that then Gideon any day of the week.
Side question. Do you guys think people are really buying into the $50 preorder that SCG has? All I could think about when I saw that was "they have to be smoking rocks over there".
No. No one is that stupid to pre-order it. If they are, they just threw (up to) $40 dollars in the garbage.
Side Question: What if they are running Gideon and Karn? My god.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
6, i'm using the +4 ability.
10 loyalty points, problem?
Thats imposible to deal with.
:symw::symb:Steel Wb Weenie
.. to name a few.
Never mind creatures attacking into him, if need be, but likely you've been taking such a beating from doing nothing but ramping into him that I might as well ignore Karn altogether and swing for lethal at you.
WUBRG
Why do you guys act like you need to hit him for the full ten or else all hope is lost? Peck him for two a turn and he is slowed down a turn and wastes more time with his Liliana ability. When people realize that one Vindicate and a fog is not worth seven mana then I think we'll see the Karn wagon lighten in load
Karn could be incredibly fun if you manage to get him off under the right circumstances, but I see him being a problem in EDH. I'd call it Emrakul Syndrome, being a ridiculously powerful colorless card. Sure, you have a ton of other players that can go after him. And yes, he isn't as immediately threatening as Emrakul. But the potential for ruining the fun of the game is too great, and EDH is all about fun.
/end of rant
Well to be fair, Nicol cost 8 in 3 colors. Karn cost 7 and is colorless. Next Karn can get rid of any permanent not only a noncreature permanent. And the ability to remove any permanent is something Black cannot do. It is well known of their problem when it comes to removing Artifacts and Enchantments. And finally Karn exiles them, something else Black has trouble doing. People might as well start comparing Karn to Sorin as much as they have been with Nicol, he's only cost 1 more then him and Sorin is all Black too. He's also easier to cast then Nicol.
He won't be banned. I fact, I really think people won't play him for his Ultimate ability if they do. So you just spent 2 hours killing off two other dudes... and then you set off his ultimate? Suddenly those two dudes are back and you have a couple of extra cards to help you jump start... doesn't sound like something anyone really wants to do...
If you can restart a game would otherwise lose then it means something.
You would probably have alot of RFG'd permantes to start out the game with, and even if you didn't if your choice is between lose and restart the game the logical choice is to restart the game.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Have you ever played against Jace? Just curious because many of your arguments are major fail against that PW. Here we have a PW that is less color dependant though three more net mana (again, GENERIC mana) and can EXILE permanents and not just "return a creature to your hand".
Karn is the bomb period. And is obviously under-rated on mtgsalvation forums... not sure what "hype" most of you are referring to.
Casual players exist, hence why Doubling Season is almost $20, Mind's Eye went from a bulk rare to a $5 rare in a year and Sword of Fire and Ice is $50.
Modern:
Something new every week
Legacy:
Something new everyweek
yeah... his argument definitely seems a little off. A resolved karn is going to be an issue, and the high loyalty is going to be a big part. However i will not say that he's the bomb. traditionally we've seen that 5 mana walkers have a problem. and I'm sure you remember the last high mana costed walker. the more I look, I think Karn might have some potential, but I don't think it's going to be enough. If nothing else I see him being used with heavy proliferate to get a vindicate on a stick. which is still scary. we'll just have to see what the next set brings to go with him. as said, he looks good, but 7 mana good... not so sure.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
Are you saying that Jace is similar to Karn and my arguments fail when applied to Jace? I sincerely nope this is not the case. I'd find it hard not to laugh if you are putting 4 mana Jace into a defense of why seven mana Karn is good.
Once I know what you meant by mentioning Jace I'll reply again. For the record, almost every game of Magic I've played in the last two years involved a Jace 2.0.
*Almost every deck can run a singleton of him, for absolutely no draw back, and gain not only Discard and Vindicate, but stronger versions of each. He is basically the poster boy for everything Wizards didn't want a colorless card (for under 8) to do. I know lots of Red players will try to force him in alongside Koth for kicks.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
I really do not know what some so called Magic players would do if they did not have a new card to whine about every set.
Karn will be a fun card to play with, he will also be restricted fairly early on NOT because he is powerful or anything but because he will make matches go on and on and on.
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Why do people keep saying that? It's like you are ignoring the fact that he has two other abilities, THAT ARE 100X TIMES BETTER. Get your heads out of your collective asses and use them!
He won't make matches go on and on, because his Ultimate will only be used when you are winning anyways. By the time you reach 14 Loyalty, you will have destroyed their entire board. If you haven't won by the time you reached 14 Loyalty, then of course you use it and beat your opponent to death with his own cards to get around what ever magical non-permanent ability it is that is preventing you from winning.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
It does not matter if it WILL, it matters that it CAN make matches longer.
"As long as players promise not to use the final ability all will be well!"
It does not work that way.
By the time you get to 14 loyalty you have destroyed their entire board?
You can get there in two turns by making them discard two cards.
Selling domain "walkingtheplanes.com"- PM me with serious inquiries.
Thanks to Sioux for the Sig!
^v^ The Hooded Pumpkin's Trading Patch ^v^
Deck Tech:
UDagon's Fish N ChipsU
How is critically evaluating a new card at all "whining"? I don't see anyone saying they wish he were better. Most of us are happy to see weaker planeswalkers. Doesn't mean we can't put Karn through the ringer anyways.
Also, to Yamakiri, I think you are way off. Valakut would never run his card.
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Yeeeah...7 mana for vindicate is a lot. It's even a lot for two vindicates spread across two turns.
I like the card, but you're not going to use his ultimate in less than five turns, no chance. You're probably +4'ing, then vindicating twice, than going for it.
You are assuming that you are playing the game by yourself. Your opponent will actively try to destroy the Vindicate-on-a-stick, which an intelligent player would utilize to their advantage. The second ability works a lot better with the Ultimate than the second, because you get to choose what you might get, and you clear the board for when you do want to start building Loyalty. It will take a lot longer than 3 turns to activate it, if you even get to that point. Most players would be fine exiling their opponent board, then if their opponent hasn't quit yet (pride, stupidity), they can "reset" the game to end it.
At which point, if you are lucky, you will have enough Exiled permanents to kill them in two or three turns. Lots of players seem to forget that starting the game with extra crap makes it end quickly. "Jace and Primeval? ☺☺☺☺, it will end quicker if I reset now." Hell, even starting the game with something as crappy as Acidic Slime will make the game end quicker.
And if players are really worried about the Reset, they will play Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker, which completely removes the possibility of the Ultimate.
I think they would run one or two (in the SB), just as a consistent way to keep Leyline's or anything similar of the board.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Critically evaluating is great
I was responding to the thread title "Karn the Expensive"
Selling domain "walkingtheplanes.com"- PM me with serious inquiries.
Thanks to Sioux for the Sig!
^v^ The Hooded Pumpkin's Trading Patch ^v^
Deck Tech:
UDagon's Fish N ChipsU
No way. Those are both awesome, 4 drop planeswalkers. This is a walker that might see 1of play. Two if your deck wants to see him often. But as an aggro player, I hope people run him. I'd rather see that then Gideon any day of the week.
Side question. Do you guys think people are really buying into the $50 preorder that SCG has? All I could think about when I saw that was "they have to be smoking rocks over there".
No. No one is that stupid to pre-order it. If they are, they just threw (up to) $40 dollars in the garbage.
Side Question: What if they are running Gideon and Karn? My god.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.