It is rare that I get excited about combos in new sets. They are generally slow, require too many cards, do not win outright, have excessive vulnerabilities, and so on. But this combo does not fall victim to these perils.
Temple Bell 3
Artifact
Tap: Each player draws a card
Here's how the combo works for those that do not see it:
Tap Bell
Discard a card to MoM, untap Bell
Tap Bell
Repeat...
A simple combo that should be used for one simple goal: decking your opponent. Sure, you can use the draw engine to search out an ideal hand with 50 cards in it, but then you actually have to cast those cards. Given that your opponent now has at least a half dozen counterspells between Daze and Force of Will, you do not want to get yourself in this situation.
But decking your opponent is a painfully easy goal that can be accomplished with one simple change to your deck: playing with more cards. If you use a 61+ card deck and your opponent uses a 60 card ones, you will have more cards than they will, and you will be able to win off of a series of activations of the combo. Additionally, as posters have pointed out, using Progenitus and Emrakul can keep you shuffling your cards, and keep your opponent decking himself (Xelopheris noted this immediately, and it is good to point it out in this first post).
So why is this combo potentially viable in Legacy, a format where it is notoriously difficult to make new decks and combos? Here are some reasons:
1) Only involves 2 cards.
2) Wins immediately.
3) Both pieces can be tutored for with one unbanned card, Enlightened Tutor.
4) Involves the color Blue, which means more Force of Will and Daze.
5) Both cards are useful on their own.
6) Coincides nicely with the Grim Monolith unbanning for acceleration.
What are your thoughts on this combo? It's a combo that fits a lot of criteria for a Legacy deck, and I know that there will be ideas out there involving it. Thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms?
Well, I think perhaps running the Eldrazi titans might not be such a bad idea. You do discard them via Mind over Matter anyway, so these give you insurance.
EDIT: uber nathed.
EDIT 2: And running the titans also give you a fun way to win if you want to.
The Eldrazi titans actually hit the graveyard for a time, which means an opponent with graveyard hate (which is EVERYWHERE) in Legacy, could feasibly win if they had more cards. But a DSC endlessly cycling between hand and Library would circumvent this problem. Besides, there are no Legacy cards that force an opponent to draw, so it's not like the opponent could take advantage of you having only one card left in your library (that card being the endlessly cycling DSC).
Also, Show and Tell could serve double duty in the deck. It can a) accelerate MoM into play and b) drop your big bad Emrakul as well. This gives the deck a viable alternate win condition.
a Gattling Gun Mill deck, interesting. I really like it because it is a two card combo, and in Legacy their are tons of ways to reach the mana cost that Mind Over Matter requires.
So, what would a deck housing this combo look like? I'm thinking plenty of counterspells to stop your opponent from getting stuff out to beat you down before you can get your combo going.
Isn't this strictly worse than Painter Servant though? Of course, I say that as an MTGO player where Imperial Servant is only $3... but still
Servant is a creature. That means vulnerability to Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Gempalm Incinerator. In response to your Grindstone activation, your opponent can just kill the Servant. That forces you to try and combo on your opponent's turns, or have countermagic backup. This combo does not need that.
In case the opponents also run stuff that keeps their deck from well decking out.
To survive that you need:
A) Something that gives you infinite life and basically Darksteel Colossus
B) or something like Platinum Angel, otherwise your facing:
Unless the opponent has a way of discarding the eldrazi, well it's in their hand and not actually in their graveyard. The wonder of this combo is that it is able to win without actually putting any cards into their graveyard. Of course the combo is exceptionally fragile, especially against common sideboard cards.
I am not well-versed in the details of how Legacy lists work, but honestly, how many Krosan Grip and Pithing Neddles can one play and still have mana for? The real issue is Pridemage from Zoo. But even that can't stop the sense of inevitability that this offers.
And a well-timed Show and Tell will let the pain begin.
Every combo is fragile against sideboard cards. Take ANT (Ad Naueseam Tendrils) for instance. Despite the prevalence of 4 Mindbreak Trap, Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Thorn of Amethyst, and a host of other Storm hate cards, this deck enjoyed spectacular success for years (until the recent Mystical Tutor banning).
This deck could easily play through hate in a similar way. The only problematic card is Krosan Grip, and even that is just a matter of making sure your opponent cannot cast it through mana denial or removing it from the deck proactively (Extirpate, Sadistic Sacrament, Silence, Orim's Chant, etc.)
Yet again your wrong about cards in legacy I'm not meaning to pick on you but this is like the 3rd time you've stated a clear untruth about decks/cards in legacy.
Solidarity which while no longer played much did reign as a tier 1 legacy deck for a fair period of time and has a winning condition that involved forcing your opponent to draw cards after you got them low.
Enchanteress which is also on the rise has the alternate win condition of using a large stroke of genius to make opponent draw library.
So there certainly are cards that force drawing.
Also on an unrelated note ....OMG wolfwood PM we need to catch up
Anything at instant speed, though? We don't care about sorcery speed stuff.
Also: you only need one Darksteel Colossus, not 4.
What tutors are there besides Enlightened Tutor? Is it better to build control-style, with Force of Will, Daze, etc., or combo-style with Silence and/or Orim's Chant? Is the black splash for mana accel and Duress effects worthwhile?
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
Yet again your wrong about cards in legacy I'm not meaning to pick on you but this is like the 3rd time you've stated a clear untruth about decks/cards in legacy.
Solidarity which while no longer played much did reign as a tier 1 legacy deck for a fair period of time and has a winning condition that involved forcing your opponent to draw cards after you got them low.
Enchanteress which is also on the rise has the alternate win condition of using a large stroke of genius to make opponent draw library.
Below is a list of the top decks from the most recent SCG Open tournaments that I compiled for a different forum. The data is essentially 100% accurate, but I might have missed a Zoo, Merfolk, or CounterTop entry here and there.
Merfolk: 17
ZOO: 15
CounterTop Variations: 15
Reanimator: 11
Goblins: 5
New Horizons: 5
ANT: 4
Belcher: 3
Landstill: 3
Blue Land: 3
Team America: 2
MBC: 2
Eva Green: 2
Aggro Loam: 2
Angel Stompy: 1
Tezzerator: 1
Dredge: 1
MUC: 1
WW: 1
UW Tempo: 1
Helm of the Void: 1
Painter Stone: 1
Show and Tell: 1
Scapeshift: 1
Survival: 1
BW Aggro: 1
Mono W Stax: 1
Thopter Sword: 1
These decks can reasonably be considered representative of the Legacy metagame, although I admit that there is some variation in the European and East Asian Legacy metagames. But that said, we will notice one thing that these decks have in common. Or rather, one thing these decks do not have in common. Forced Draw Effects. Just because some decks use them, does not mean that any representative number of decks do. I would love to hear any other supposed "untruths" that you think I am making about Legacy and address those as well.
Solidarity? According to DeckCheck, there are only 7 solidarity decks that have made it to the top 8 since January 2010. Of those, only one of them actually won. It has long been considered a dead or at least dormant combo deck since the explosion of ANT, and while that might change with the Mystical Tutor banning, it has not yet come about. You even acknowledge this fact and still bring it up as counter-evidence. As to Enchantress with Stroke, I do not see a single one in all of the deck listings. The deck is certainly good and certainly posts results, but not with the Stroke addition as you suggest.
I do not mean to come off as belligerent here, but you are misrepresenting the cards, the decks, and the format as a whole. I respectfully object to your criticism and do not intend to facilitate a catty internet argument about this, but the facts are not on your side.
Mind Over Matter + Temple Bell
Temple Bell 3
Artifact
Tap: Each player draws a card
Here's how the combo works for those that do not see it:
Tap Bell
Discard a card to MoM, untap Bell
Tap Bell
Repeat...
A simple combo that should be used for one simple goal: decking your opponent. Sure, you can use the draw engine to search out an ideal hand with 50 cards in it, but then you actually have to cast those cards. Given that your opponent now has at least a half dozen counterspells between Daze and Force of Will, you do not want to get yourself in this situation.
But decking your opponent is a painfully easy goal that can be accomplished with one simple change to your deck: playing with more cards. If you use a 61+ card deck and your opponent uses a 60 card ones, you will have more cards than they will, and you will be able to win off of a series of activations of the combo. Additionally, as posters have pointed out, using Progenitus and Emrakul can keep you shuffling your cards, and keep your opponent decking himself (Xelopheris noted this immediately, and it is good to point it out in this first post).
So why is this combo potentially viable in Legacy, a format where it is notoriously difficult to make new decks and combos? Here are some reasons:
1) Only involves 2 cards.
2) Wins immediately.
3) Both pieces can be tutored for with one unbanned card, Enlightened Tutor.
4) Involves the color Blue, which means more Force of Will and Daze.
5) Both cards are useful on their own.
6) Coincides nicely with the Grim Monolith unbanning for acceleration.
What are your thoughts on this combo? It's a combo that fits a lot of criteria for a Legacy deck, and I know that there will be ideas out there involving it. Thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms?
Combo Pieces
Mind Over Matter
Temple Bell
Darksteel Colossus (Preventing self decking, immune to graveyard hate)
Emrakul the Aeons Torn (Preventing self decking, possible Show and Tell target)
Show and Tell (Synergizes with both Mind Over Matter and Emrakul)
-ktkenshinx-
Also, rather than having a larger deck, instead, use an Eldrazi to shuffle your GY back, or a Progenitus to keep it in your library.
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Legacy/Vintage: Sneak Attack!, Reanimator, SuiBlack, Painter's Grindstone
Standard:Mono-Black midrange, BW Vamp-Blade
Extended: Mono-Black Vampires, Faeries
EDH: Jhoira, Glissa (In progress), Kaervec the Merciless.
Liliana Vess Collection count: 91 and 8 Liliana of the Veil
Edit: nath'd be a better idea
ゆっくりしていってね!!!
EDIT: uber nathed.
EDIT 2: And running the titans also give you a fun way to win if you want to.
Currently playing:
T2
BW Aggro-Midrange BW
The Eldrazi titans actually hit the graveyard for a time, which means an opponent with graveyard hate (which is EVERYWHERE) in Legacy, could feasibly win if they had more cards. But a DSC endlessly cycling between hand and Library would circumvent this problem. Besides, there are no Legacy cards that force an opponent to draw, so it's not like the opponent could take advantage of you having only one card left in your library (that card being the endlessly cycling DSC).
Also, Show and Tell could serve double duty in the deck. It can a) accelerate MoM into play and b) drop your big bad Emrakul as well. This gives the deck a viable alternate win condition.
-ktkenshinx-
Wolfwood Sama on MTGO (Westane for PureMTGO community events)
UR - Burning Vengeance
BG - The Rock
RUG - RUG Control
BBB - Zombies
Currently playing:
T2
BW Aggro-Midrange BW
Servant is a creature. That means vulnerability to Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Gempalm Incinerator. In response to your Grindstone activation, your opponent can just kill the Servant. That forces you to try and combo on your opponent's turns, or have countermagic backup. This combo does not need that.
-ktkenshinx-
Temple Bell + Mind Over Matter + Underworld Dreams
In case the opponents also run stuff that keeps their deck from well decking out.
To survive that you need:
A) Something that gives you infinite life and basically Darksteel Colossus
B) or something like Platinum Angel, otherwise your facing:
Infinite Damage + Infinite Milling
How would they stop it once it got going except with a counter ability spell or the like? It's not like they discard until end of turn....
First thing that comes to mind: The Jester's Tool's
There might be something else I am not thinking of.
The opponent will never have a chance to discard it before he loses. With Mind Over Matter in play, you can discard yours to continue the combo.
This combo looks like a lot of fun, and actually very powerful. Two card combos that win no matter what aren't bad.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
Unless the opponent has a way of discarding the eldrazi, well it's in their hand and not actually in their graveyard. The wonder of this combo is that it is able to win without actually putting any cards into their graveyard. Of course the combo is exceptionally fragile, especially against common sideboard cards.
Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip all hate you so much.
And a well-timed Show and Tell will let the pain begin.
Currently playing:
T2
BW Aggro-Midrange BW
Every combo is fragile against sideboard cards. Take ANT (Ad Naueseam Tendrils) for instance. Despite the prevalence of 4 Mindbreak Trap, Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Thorn of Amethyst, and a host of other Storm hate cards, this deck enjoyed spectacular success for years (until the recent Mystical Tutor banning).
This deck could easily play through hate in a similar way. The only problematic card is Krosan Grip, and even that is just a matter of making sure your opponent cannot cast it through mana denial or removing it from the deck proactively (Extirpate, Sadistic Sacrament, Silence, Orim's Chant, etc.)
-ktkenshinx-
4 Darksteel Colossus
Other Spells:
4 Mind Over Matter
4 Temple Bell
4 Underworld Dreams
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Show & Tell
That Is All I Got For a general idea of the deck....
Perhaps sideboard, but even then...
Because who doesn't love Total Damage = Your Library you just drew?
Though yeah, SB I guess.
Anything at instant speed, though? We don't care about sorcery speed stuff.
Also: you only need one Darksteel Colossus, not 4.
What tutors are there besides Enlightened Tutor? Is it better to build control-style, with Force of Will, Daze, etc., or combo-style with Silence and/or Orim's Chant? Is the black splash for mana accel and Duress effects worthwhile?
Below is a list of the top decks from the most recent SCG Open tournaments that I compiled for a different forum. The data is essentially 100% accurate, but I might have missed a Zoo, Merfolk, or CounterTop entry here and there.
Merfolk: 17
ZOO: 15
CounterTop Variations: 15
Reanimator: 11
Goblins: 5
New Horizons: 5
ANT: 4
Belcher: 3
Landstill: 3
Blue Land: 3
Team America: 2
MBC: 2
Eva Green: 2
Aggro Loam: 2
Angel Stompy: 1
Tezzerator: 1
Dredge: 1
MUC: 1
WW: 1
UW Tempo: 1
Helm of the Void: 1
Painter Stone: 1
Show and Tell: 1
Scapeshift: 1
Survival: 1
BW Aggro: 1
Mono W Stax: 1
Thopter Sword: 1
These decks can reasonably be considered representative of the Legacy metagame, although I admit that there is some variation in the European and East Asian Legacy metagames. But that said, we will notice one thing that these decks have in common. Or rather, one thing these decks do not have in common. Forced Draw Effects. Just because some decks use them, does not mean that any representative number of decks do. I would love to hear any other supposed "untruths" that you think I am making about Legacy and address those as well.
Solidarity? According to DeckCheck, there are only 7 solidarity decks that have made it to the top 8 since January 2010. Of those, only one of them actually won. It has long been considered a dead or at least dormant combo deck since the explosion of ANT, and while that might change with the Mystical Tutor banning, it has not yet come about. You even acknowledge this fact and still bring it up as counter-evidence. As to Enchantress with Stroke, I do not see a single one in all of the deck listings. The deck is certainly good and certainly posts results, but not with the Stroke addition as you suggest.
I do not mean to come off as belligerent here, but you are misrepresenting the cards, the decks, and the format as a whole. I respectfully object to your criticism and do not intend to facilitate a catty internet argument about this, but the facts are not on your side.
-ktkenshinx-