For the most part my post was aimed at making the OP realize that the "positive" synergy of deathtouch + trample is similar to the "positive" synergy archbound ravager had with affinity, it's so positive it crowds out lesser synergies like deathtouch + first strike or trample + double strike (although I admitt both strikes would only deepen the problem I pointed out). I'm glad you realized that a change to trample would be needed to keep the combination under control, despite a lanquistics barrier.
Another point I was trying to shed light on is: why change things (lethal damage) that are referenced by other abilities (trample) when adding a new rule is more or less the same thing (WotC is adding a rule that governs deathtouch much like there is a rule governing wither) and if things don't work out as planned for deathtouch all WotC needs to do is highlight the new rule and hit delete rather than search through trample, deathtouch,and lethal damage (redefining them again). On paper the OP's idea looks good and was probly tried but failed during playtesting or talking to MaGo (read MaRo's article about Berry's land and you see that MaGo can kill an idea faster than a bullet to the head).
Actually i find the supposedly "broken" interaction between deathtouch and damage, very flavourful. The dude just does as much work as is needed to kill his opposing creatures (e.g. 1) and then continues to bash the players face. Why would he have to assign all damage to a blocking creature, if it's going to die nonetheless.
I don't really see why the current interaction between trample and deathouch must be kept that way, especially at the expense of complicating the keyword and combat step. Hence i support the proposed change of the definition of lethal damage.
As flavourful as it my be this is still a game. And as a game it needs to balance flavor and mechanics. As I have repeated a few times (I can't honestly be the only one against creature based one sided wraths that kill you in 2-3 turns if you don't sacrifice your whole feild to it).
Here let me show you how easy it is to pull off using non-rares: Wren's run vanquisher + Colossal might = 7/5 trample deathtouch that can now kill any blocker for 1 and still hit for 6 for 4 mana and revealing an elf. The more permanent form of that effect would just be terrible. And again it obsoletes all walls when facing this "synergy", and flavor wise a wall shouldn't fall to 1 warrior simply because he can kill things quickly and efficiently.
Ofcourse that issue is removed by changing trample to not allow it.
Thats not really that way. They had to make a clarification for Deadtouch + Trample implications with their choice. So this is not a good argument.
P.D Sorry for the two continued posts . I didnt know how to quote 2 post in the same one.
If they did it's not in the M10 changes release but I'll consede that point to you. Although I stand by my stance on deathtouch + trample not needing to be pushed to more power (deathtouch already makes double blocking with larger creatures on a trampler unappealing, lose more creatures or take a little damage)
The multi-quote is the "+ symbol in the middle just to the right of quote. Warning though, at least for me it doesn't seem iPhone friendly.
First of all. Thanks for the advice for multi quote.
Second, is good to have a discordant opinion but in a glady manner as you. That lets all of us to share different points of view and learn a lot about this marvelous game.
I will concede you that a combo + deadtouch with our choice lets deal much more damage.
But that also happened when someone blocked and then you killed the defender (this was a usual trick)
In your example you have to use 2 cards for the combo, with the significant risk - wich is higher than the - Trample + kill blocker (As this last is safer)
After that i have to say that they did this for M10:
A creature with deadtouch can freely asign damage betwen the defenders without any kind of advice.
If we take a single 1/2 deadtouch that is blocked by two 1/1 wich regenerate with one free mana you have no option to save the one that will receive the damage.
You can activate the shield. Then, the player with the deadtouch creature has the option to chose the other to receive the damage.
And this is a single efect.
The same hapens with prevention efects. As you have to play your spells first he can choose where he wants after that.
That doesnt happen with normal damage due to the defending order issue.
So this makes absurdly powerful deadtouch.
I've always found that people listen to what you have to say when it's kept civilized, the don't stick their fingers in their ears and yell lalalala as much.
On to the debating then, as I see it both systems are nearly the same but the one for your camp has obvious interactions that would need adressing and if a cleaner more accurate form of your rules were drawn up so the debate is less confusing (your proposal seems to take into account more than the OP's so I'm sure it will be easier to critique and smooth out). I'm also sure that a refined proposal would kill off the nasty 7/7 beast of doom and tame it into a workable item that WotC wouldn't have to tiptoe around, I'll explain more on the tiptoeing next.
True about the possibility of getting very hard to kill creatures. But besides Vanquisher there are not many efficient deathtouch creatures right now, are there? So with the example above you invest 2 cards, risking possible card disadvantage to get 7 damage through, which seems very strong but not quite broken to me. WotC just gotta be careful with printing efficient deathtouch creatures and/or efficient cards that give permanent trample.
That's the point 2 cards uniting into a powerhouse could cause R&D to not print powerful/efficient deathtouch creatures, thus defeating what I think these rules are paving the way for: efficient deathtouch and efficient lifelink without overempowering them to the point of nerfing them (example: if we revisit mirrorin affinity will either be alot weaker in that block or missing altogether due to it's ease of abuse {although I'm sure someone will argue that it was ravenger and the lands fault}). Just look at child of night... It is a 2 drop 2/1 monoblack common which is limited decent but tack lifelink on there and this little vamp has casual/constructed potential due to it being a efficient monocolor creature, now granted it will need alot of backup to make constructed but it has potential. I just hope M10 has more efficient lifelinkers and deathtouchers (the slime is efficient only if you really want that creeping mold effect.
As flavourful as it my be this is still a game. And as a game it needs to balance flavor and mechanics. As I have repeated a few times (I can't honestly be the only one against creature based one sided wraths that kill you in 2-3 turns if you don't sacrifice your whole feild to it).
Here let me show you how easy it is to pull off using non-rares: Wren's run vanquisher + Colossal might = 7/5 trample deathtouch that can now kill any blocker for 1 and still hit for 6 for 4 mana and revealing an elf. The more permanent form of that effect would just be terrible. And again it obsoletes all walls when facing this "synergy", and flavor wise a wall shouldn't fall to 1 warrior simply because he can kill things quickly and efficiently.
Ofcourse that issue is removed by changing trample to not allow it.
Honestly, I don't think it's a big deal. If I remember right, Vanquisher is the largest creature with deathtouch in Magic and none of them have trample. Sure, if you get a huge trample/deathtouch creature, it'll be a house, but any huge creature is brutal in limited anyway. Of course, since I don't see wizards ever printing a huge creature with deathtouch and trample, such an interaction will be relegated to unlikely senarios and combos such as your 2 card combo. It's seriously not going to break Magic for deathtouch+trample to be a good combo. First strike is already nuts with deathtouch and it hasn't warped any formats. Besides, if the 7/7 of doom ever were printed, it would probably be costed at 8 mana anyway and be relegated to the junk uncommon or rare bin. Progenitus is a 10/10 unblockable and still isn't destroying Magic or anything.
Can I check for clarification with you guys how deathtouch interacts on a non-combat damage basis. If you have Magma Phoenix in play and its equipped with Basilisk Collar when it goes to the graveyard and then triggers 3 points of damage to all creatures and players does it also hit them with deathtouch and effectively become a recurring board sweeper? This is not combat damage so I was advised that you don't get to assign the deathtouch to a single creature like you would with multiple blockers.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
lol.
wat.
For the most part my post was aimed at making the OP realize that the "positive" synergy of deathtouch + trample is similar to the "positive" synergy archbound ravager had with affinity, it's so positive it crowds out lesser synergies like deathtouch + first strike or trample + double strike (although I admitt both strikes would only deepen the problem I pointed out). I'm glad you realized that a change to trample would be needed to keep the combination under control, despite a lanquistics barrier.
Another point I was trying to shed light on is: why change things (lethal damage) that are referenced by other abilities (trample) when adding a new rule is more or less the same thing (WotC is adding a rule that governs deathtouch much like there is a rule governing wither) and if things don't work out as planned for deathtouch all WotC needs to do is highlight the new rule and hit delete rather than search through trample, deathtouch,and lethal damage (redefining them again). On paper the OP's idea looks good and was probly tried but failed during playtesting or talking to MaGo (read MaRo's article about Berry's land and you see that MaGo can kill an idea faster than a bullet to the head).
As flavourful as it my be this is still a game. And as a game it needs to balance flavor and mechanics. As I have repeated a few times (I can't honestly be the only one against creature based one sided wraths that kill you in 2-3 turns if you don't sacrifice your whole feild to it).
Here let me show you how easy it is to pull off using non-rares: Wren's run vanquisher + Colossal might = 7/5 trample deathtouch that can now kill any blocker for 1 and still hit for 6 for 4 mana and revealing an elf. The more permanent form of that effect would just be terrible. And again it obsoletes all walls when facing this "synergy", and flavor wise a wall shouldn't fall to 1 warrior simply because he can kill things quickly and efficiently.
Ofcourse that issue is removed by changing trample to not allow it.
If they did it's not in the M10 changes release but I'll consede that point to you. Although I stand by my stance on deathtouch + trample not needing to be pushed to more power (deathtouch already makes double blocking with larger creatures on a trampler unappealing, lose more creatures or take a little damage)
The multi-quote is the "+ symbol in the middle just to the right of quote. Warning though, at least for me it doesn't seem iPhone friendly.
Awesome Sig made by Magus of the Sheep @ Scuttlemutt Productions
Persuasive God of Deals of the [The Æsir]
наши пушки никогда шин
I've always found that people listen to what you have to say when it's kept civilized, the don't stick their fingers in their ears and yell lalalala as much.
On to the debating then, as I see it both systems are nearly the same but the one for your camp has obvious interactions that would need adressing and if a cleaner more accurate form of your rules were drawn up so the debate is less confusing (your proposal seems to take into account more than the OP's so I'm sure it will be easier to critique and smooth out). I'm also sure that a refined proposal would kill off the nasty 7/7 beast of doom and tame it into a workable item that WotC wouldn't have to tiptoe around, I'll explain more on the tiptoeing next.
That's the point 2 cards uniting into a powerhouse could cause R&D to not print powerful/efficient deathtouch creatures, thus defeating what I think these rules are paving the way for: efficient deathtouch and efficient lifelink without overempowering them to the point of nerfing them (example: if we revisit mirrorin affinity will either be alot weaker in that block or missing altogether due to it's ease of abuse {although I'm sure someone will argue that it was ravenger and the lands fault}). Just look at child of night... It is a 2 drop 2/1 monoblack common which is limited decent but tack lifelink on there and this little vamp has casual/constructed potential due to it being a efficient monocolor creature, now granted it will need alot of backup to make constructed but it has potential. I just hope M10 has more efficient lifelinkers and deathtouchers (the slime is efficient only if you really want that creeping mold effect.
Honestly, I don't think it's a big deal. If I remember right, Vanquisher is the largest creature with deathtouch in Magic and none of them have trample. Sure, if you get a huge trample/deathtouch creature, it'll be a house, but any huge creature is brutal in limited anyway. Of course, since I don't see wizards ever printing a huge creature with deathtouch and trample, such an interaction will be relegated to unlikely senarios and combos such as your 2 card combo. It's seriously not going to break Magic for deathtouch+trample to be a good combo. First strike is already nuts with deathtouch and it hasn't warped any formats. Besides, if the 7/7 of doom ever were printed, it would probably be costed at 8 mana anyway and be relegated to the junk uncommon or rare bin. Progenitus is a 10/10 unblockable and still isn't destroying Magic or anything.